DUST Search - PC is a Failure: Can players make it fun some how?

Noc Tempre wrote:

Kain Spero wrote:

steadyhand amarr wrote:

shift PC to EvE players that can then contract out to Dust players at fixed prices this way its an EvE who has to talk to us and we can chose when and were to part without to much of it. if EvE units want a standing army for their PC they have to build up their own dust corp.

you know like what they said they were going to in the first place. Also maybe not having head in sand leadership and office shangi (Why what is the point england office tax breaks too >.<) might also help.

Actually, I do think this is the way to go. Have the option exists for either the Eve side or Dust side to "own" the districts. If the Eve side owns the districts then let Eve players use their ISK to pay for the clone packs, change surface structure, and move clones from place to place. Then allow the eve players to hire whoever they want to use their clones for their attacks and defense of the districts. In this scenario the Dusters get paid in biomass and loot and the Eve player gets paid in the passive ISK from clones and the passive bonuses from the districts.

Why would they do that when PI is better profit with lower effort and risk?


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Kain Spero Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1544	Posted - 2013.06.08 22:53:00 - [1] - Quote Sev Alcatraz wrote: It feels like a job This is the worst aspect of PC. From talking with other alliance leaders and other folks players are running themselves ragged. Sure folks may have made the mistake of taking on too many districts, but it's getting to the point where enemies aren't even showing up to fight. The land rush was probably the worst aspect of the whole thing. In hindsight CCP should have just in stealth mode changed it to where Corps could only land 1 or 2 districts, so we wouldn't have ended up with all of the alt corp BS that was an initial concern or massive land grabs by single entities. There are now people that would like to be in PC, but don't feel like sinking 160 to 240 million plus just to secure one spot that will get crushed by the bigger groups. Right now the only way to be involved in PC is if you want to fight to own land, which is unsustainable. Faction Warfare isn't robust enough or different enough from pub matches to capture the attention for long of serious corps that want to duke it out with other player corporations. Faction Warfare needs to focus on organized player groups making pushes for the empire of their choosing, and there also needs to be ways for smaller groups to attack districts in PC for ISK or resources and NOT for ownership. There is also no progression to taking a district it's just the same fight repeated 2 to 3 times. If your corp or organization gets pushed out of PC land ownership there really isn't anywhere to go. I watched organizations get removed from PC and then have their numbers drop by the thousands. You then end up with these experienced, high power players flooding into Instant Battle and kicking the crap out of newer players, which makes the new guys want to leave the game. A vicious cycle has been created that does nothing but drive people from the game. If you are successful you get burned out and if you aren't successful you just get pushed out of the game. There has to be more to Dust than two game modes. There has to be more progression than there is now. Honestly, there just has to be more. The problems are deeper than that though. I don't think CCP has turned a deaf ear (CCP Nullarbor and CCP FoxFour among others have been champs making the changes they can to improve the system). Right now there are so many significant issues with the core gameplay that the larger picture like planetary conquest and faction warfare can't get the attention they need.
Kain Spero Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1549	Posted - 2013.06.09 02:28:00 - [2] - Quote Ydubbs81 RND wrote: You can't blame CCP for players being burned out. If you want to own the entire Molden Heath......or, practically speaking, if you want to hold 15 districts, then you will be having a lot of battles. That isn't CCP's fault...that is corps wishing to hold a lot of territory. If corps wish...they can sell some of the districts and maybe corps that aren't in PC may be able to hop in and get some action. I'd love to sell land and especially to people who aren't currently in PC. Take a look at Hrober when you get a chance. Good thing CCP deleted my Spero Escrow Services thread. http://dustsearch.com/thread/83727 https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=83727GÇÄ
Kain Spero Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1551	Posted - 2013.06.09 03:18:00 - [3] - Quote Sponglyboy Squaredoo wrote: There goes Kain. Turning ranting into business LOL +1 If you don't currently have land in PC you should come talk to me or my Eve side, Kane Spero. I think turning Oddelulft into a thunderdome will be fun. We should make sure to leave some space for the Dust schools though.
Kain Spero Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1557	Posted - 2013.06.09 20:52:00 - [4] - Quote steadyhand amarr wrote: shift PC to EvE players that can then contract out to Dust players at fixed prices this way its an EvE who has to talk to us and we can chose when and were to part without to much of it. if EvE units want a standing army for their PC they have to build up their own dust corp. you know like what they said they were going to in the first place. Also maybe not having head in sand leadership and office shangi (Why what is the point england office tax breaks too >.<) might also help. Actually, I do think this is the way to go. Have the option exists for either the Eve side or Dust side to "own" the districts. If the Eve side owns the districts then let Eve players use their ISK to pay for the clone packs, change surface structure, and move clones from place to place. Then allow the eve players to hire whoever they want to use their clones for their attacks and defense of the districts. In this scenario the Dusters get paid in biomass and loot and the Eve player gets paid in the passive ISK from clones and the passive bonuses from the districts.
Kain Spero Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1558	Posted - 2013.06.10 14:04:00 - [5] - Quote Noc Tempre wrote: Kain Spero wrote: steadyhand amarr wrote: shift PC to EvE players that can then contract out to Dust players at fixed prices this way its an EvE who has to talk to us and we can chose when and were to part without to much of it. if EvE units want a standing army for their PC they have to build up their own dust corp. you know like what they said they were going to in the first place. Also maybe not having head in sand leadership and office shangi (Why what is the point england office tax breaks too >.<) might also help. Actually, I do think this is the way to go. Have the option exists for either the Eve side or Dust side to "own" the districts. If the Eve side owns the districts then let Eve players use their ISK to pay for the clone packs, change surface structure, and move clones from place to place. Then allow the eve players to hire whoever they want to use their clones for their attacks and defense of the districts. In this scenario the Dusters get paid in biomass and loot and the Eve player gets paid in the passive ISK from clones and the passive bonuses from the districts. Why would they do that when PI is better profit with lower effort and risk? The right economic incentives would have to be put in place and they just aren't there. I know there are tons of groups eve-side that would love to get involved in orbital strikes and dust stuff, but there isn't really enough incentive there to do so. Plus, forcing Dusters an Eve pilots to join the same corp or alliance to reap rewards is just proving a painful obstacle. Honestly, they do need a standings system in Dust, they need ways for eve pilots to manipulate clones and districts, and they need to get the Dust and Eve economies linked in a more tangible way.
Kain Spero Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1558	Posted - 2013.06.10 14:23:00 - [6] - Quote Thor Odinson42 wrote: Yep, to get eve pilots involved right now it's only from a "something new" excitement for them to do it at all. Perhaps in the beginning it was to help their alliance or whatever, but it takes longer to get the strike down and many times its a dud because of this. Not only that, but as it stands right now your success in orbit Eve-side doesn't Impact the Dust side due to being tied to warpoints. I really think the mechanic used a fanfest where what gave you Eve-side OBs was the Eve pilots controlling the area around the satellite. Before I was concerned about baby steps, but now I'm not so sure. Just think about how much ISK flowed into the Eve markets because of Incursions and the Faction Warfare issues. The amount of economic activity that would occur in Molden Heath would be a drop in the bucket. Let Molden Heath serve as the testing ground, but let's start to take real steps forward. Eve and its players need to be leveraged to make Faction Warfare and Planetary Conquest all that they can be. It's time for bold moves when it comes to the big picture of the game. On the small scale of the core mechanics, though it needs to be all about iteration. Changes have to communicated in detail. There is no test server for Dust, so communicating the upcoming changes and balance issues is even more important. We went in for good fights in Planetary Conquest and we end up with players on the opposing side that refuse to leave their MCC due to performance issues. Then we have teams that refuse to show up entirely even on their "home world" . Something has to give.
Kain Spero Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1560	Posted - 2013.06.10 15:17:00 - [7] - Quote Tallen Ellecon wrote: This is not New Eden, at least not yet. I'm running around random matches all over the galaxy fighting for random corps against random players. PC was an idea best left for a Beta, but I accept this game will always be a Beta. Focus on making the freedom of Eve in Dust by implementing PvE, Corp standings, LP, open market, and break all these walls between EVE and DUST. Yeah the walls need to come down, but at the same time the core gameplay has to be addressed. On the CPM I feel like we've been sand bagged by so many basic core issues that we can't even begin to focus on the big picture.
Kain Spero Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1564	Posted - 2013.06.10 17:08:00 - [8] - Quote KaTaLy5t-87 wrote: +1 to both of these posts. I think CCP seriously needs to sort out the core issues, the bugs, glitches and ridiculous errors that the game has before they can move forward. Adding anything else into a game this flawed would be a huge mistake. I'd love to see PvE and all those things and to feel like we (Dust players) are part of New Eden but I think before that happens the game needs to operate properly. I mean need to be seriously lucky to even revive people at the moment and that's just annoying. Don't get me wrong, I really like Dust and I would love to see more features and more ways for players and Corps to interact with the New Eden universe. I just want the game to function properly first and I think it's kind of alarming that the Devs haven't given any indication as to when the bugs and glitches will be fixed. I mean it can't be that big of issue to fix the nanite injector can it? This is probably one of the most frustrating things right now. You really need to make the core game work, but if there is no bigger picture or dynamic gameplay you end up feeling like a hamster running in a wheel. People came to Dust for permanence and for their actions to matter. It has to be both of these things working together.
Kain Spero Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1590	Posted - 2013.06.11 14:28:00 - [9] - Quote Gregor stormwalker wrote: Vrain Matari wrote: The truth is, we don't know what PC is really like. There is structure and strategy built into the rules, but the Genpack is bypassing the intended design and preventing us from having a much more interesting game experience. Without the Genpack local politics would be more important. Without the Genpack corps would stand a better chance of establishing and holding a home base. Without the Genpack diplomatic efforts with corps and alliances distant from your own space would become more important, since pressure on war targets would have to be applied locally. We need a different mechanism for allowing corps to get into PC. And this is a reminder of an old lesson our Devs need to keep in mind: You cannot balance with ISK. Ever. The deterrent to Genpack use was supposed to be cost. That 80 million ISK deterrent was not effective. Once we're coupled to EVE, things will be worse. started a topic on this in feedback/requests remove clone packs for corps with districts there are othere idea out there and would be intrested in everyones views I'd be fine with removing clone packs for corps who own districts, but you need a way to by a 300 clone gen pack and I think move forward with the idea of pressing attacks (have multiple fights on the same day for the same district).
Kain Spero Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1590	Posted - 2013.06.11 14:31:00 - [10] - Quote StubbyDucky wrote: TL: but I read it. All of the above but more than anything, it is only 16 V 16. LOL what a joke! Give us large scale battles where having separate skills, equipment, and divisions of mixed matched players and wining or losing the battles actually means something. 16 V 16 is just pathetic and an insult to us the players and customers. 128 V 128 battles make it happen CCP we know its possible. Make it happen CCP or sink with this raft that you have built to try and cross an ocean. The way to go IMO would be to allow different ways to attack districts and have these different attacks result in different game modes. Maybe the actual fights for flipping a district are large battles, while a mission to sabotage clone production using less players.

Kain Spero Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1590	Posted - 2013.06.11 15:26:00 - [11] - Quote The biggest boon to letting people play the role of mercenaries would be to let one corporation be authorized to use another corporation's clones for a fight or even a campaign.
Kain Spero Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1592	Posted - 2013.06.11 16:35:00 - [12] - Quote Blamejudg3s KEQ wrote: If your getting burned out, blame your corp structure, not the game. From your own corp member. bigolenuts wrote: I didn't think I would ever burnout. Now, when I wake up I am almost dreading to walk near my PS3..lol...
Kain Spero Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1603	Posted - 2013.06.11 18:15:00 - [13] - Quote I'll stop by the thread and give a ready through. I think if pressing attacks was added then a cool down feature for successfully defending would need to be implemented as well. The way I see it if you defend an attack the attacking force can re-attack but instead of the normal less that 24 hour window it would be pushed back to a 48 hour window to give the defenders breathing room from fending off the last attack.
Kain Spero Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1603	Posted - 2013.06.11 18:30:00 - [14] - Quote Gregor stormwalker wrote: I am not sure about the pressing the attack mechanic but im open to it with restrictions maybe limit it to 1 extra attack and only if the attackers still have over 150 clones this would also then encourage attacking with more than minimum loose numbers. with this in place 300 clone starter pack would have there places too. Actually, you may be on to something with 150 clone threshold for pressing attack. This combined with higher clone stealing rewards I saw suggested in another thread could really improve the dynamics of Planetary Conquest for the better.
Kain Spero Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1603	Posted - 2013.06.11 18:57:00 - [15] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: 2) This contract system should be tested before we're connected to EVE so we can test the basic dynamicss of it before wildly distorting forces fron EVE get applied to us po' liddle mercs. The lack of the Eve connection and tie to the bigger picture is part of what's causing planetary conquest to grow stale so face. There could be thousands of Eve pilots fighting and dying over these planets in Molden Heath if the right incentives were created and less rigid OB mechanics were implemented. Create the economic incentive and the Eve pilots will come. Imagine if some or all of that passive clone ISK was going to Eve instead of Dust. That would be a potential 240 million to 300 million ISK per month per district reason to fight for control of the temperate planets in Molden Heath.