Those are some fugly charts.

So what I'm getting out of this is outside of ammo capacity, all the secondary skills are a complete waste for the SP investment...

So what I'm getting out of this is outside of ammo capacity, all the secondary skills are a complete waste for the SP investment...

The advantage these skills present don't seem worth the millions of SP at all.

They will when the time is right.

How would you like your meta 10 suit and equipment to be lost over a .25 second reload difference?

Or better yet your district to be lost of that reload speed. Because instead of you defending a point he was able to hack it?

I believe Vin Diesel said. It doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile. Winning is winning.

When you get into a close combat fire fight with another using the same gun. And he happens to reload .25 seconds faster than you and finish you off. You'll be cursing the gods.

Fun fact with respect to firearms - for that less than a second advantage you're talking about, you could take all three current sidearm guns to Proto...

I was asking this same question last night. It seems to me that the math has changed. I run a MD, so every shell counts. I had a full extra clip last build with Capacity Proficiency. In Chromosome, all my numbers rounded down. A 5% increase to my basic 18 shell ammo pool nets me a .9 shell increase. Last build I didn't get anything from a .9 increase, this build I got an extra shell from the .9 addition. That's all fine and dandy, I figured CCP finally cut me a break, no way the next increase of 1.8 shells will give me 2 right? Well I'm happy to say that it did. Will lvl 3, with it's 2.7 shell increase give me 3 shells? Stay tuned.
I could be wrong entirely as far as how the math calculates, I was last build. Is this skill adding 5% to 18 every time, or is it 5, 10, 15, etc each time? I'm confused as to how this skill mathematizes things...

Rapid Reloading is the biggest trap. It barely becomes noticeable when maxed and for that many points you could have gotten anything else. What makes me really curious is why a nigh-useless skill went from X2 to X6...

I am surprised to see that fitting optimization is also incredibly worthless, probably more so. But it makes sense because weapons are not a PG drain, they are a CPU drain. Just amazing.

Be well.

Some Suggested Changes

I'd thought I'd throw out a few idea on how the skills can be "fixed", as opposed to just suggesting they be changed in general.

Max Ammo Capacity

The foremost task here is adjusting the percentages to a point where the ammo gains are useful across all the weapon types. If it needs a boost to 8% per level, or such, that shouldn't be hard be hard to implement on an individual basis. Remember, the skill is at a disadvantage in utility when its effects are outdone by militia nanohives (because it currently gives about 1 clip at best).

Further give the benefit on rounding on the last rank. No one wants whether or not they're going to get an extra bit of ammo on the last (and most expensive rank) to be a question mark. If you can't just do +1 ammo per level on the low ammo gear, at least make sure the rounding benefits them on rank 5.

Finally, and I think most appealingly, add a percentage gain to max clip size (e.g. +5% max ammo, +2% max clip per level, etc.). This is harder to balance than simply more ammo, but I think at a low percentage it would make a useful and desirable addition to every weapon. The caveat is this: round down until rank 5, if they haven't gotten an extra round in their clip by 5, round up at that point. So, a 2% gain in clip size on a swarm launcher per level wouldn't result in an extra round till rank 5 (1 million SP or so).

On other weapons, this could similarly be both conservative but useful. If a new TAR has a 12-14 round clip (like another game's DMR), then they'd gain 1 or 2 rounds at most for rank 5. The standard AR would 6 more rounds in a clip at rank 5, etc.

I think it would give the skill desirability and usefulness beyond the more questionable value of a clip's worth of ammo to carry with you.

Fitting Optimization

If you can't adjust the skill for every weapon, consider making it a flat +1 to PG while that weapon is equipped. The skill retains its exorbitant cost, but gains a direct and appreciable benefit across the board. This makes the use of lower-tiered weapons in the class much more efficient as well.

Now, this would appear to have a side effect of actually "adding" PG to your suit on the lower tier (e.g. if you hit rank 5 with +5 PG, and equip a pistol using 2 PG). However, I think this is actually something that fits with the 6x cost you've given the skill. The person that get to use this skill at all has already hit Proficiency 4 - an extremely high bar in weapon specialization. It would cost them 2 million SP to actually reap that benefit, and it would ONLY come when they: A) Are using that weapon type. B) Are using low-tiered versions of that type. I would however limit the bonus to being in effect a single time per weapon type (e.g., no double bonus when dual wielding).

As in-universe justification, at the weapon mastery of capping a 2x Op, 5x Prof, and 6x Opt skills... you can feed the excess power from the fuel cells in your weapon back into your suit.

I like the max ammo idea with clip-size bonuses, but I've never managed to get a weapon to proficiency 4 - so the latter bit would be a long time coming. Just maxing Operation, Proficiency, and Optimization would be like... 4 million SP. That's pretty firmly in the domain of luxury skills there.

Useful skills? Madness!

There was no point splitting up the skills unless the weapons were going to be handled individually. You better be getting a lot more for such an expensive SP sink.

Unfortunately, Heavies can't carry nano hives and aren't always close to a resupply. Squad mates, and generous blueberries, with hives make life easier, but sometimes that little bit of extra ammo is needed. But at the current SP cost for low capacity weapons... It's ridiculous.

What did 3% reload per level cost when it covered all light weapons?

Worth mentioning that Max ammo isn't nearly as bad for the HMG, because a relative percentage of HMG ammo is much much higher than any other weapon in the game.

I'm just letting you know. The little things will make the biggest difference in the end.

Unfortunately, Heavies can't carry nano hives and aren't always close to a resupply. Squad mates, and generous blueberries, with hives make life easier, but sometimes that little bit of extra ammo is needed. But at the current SP cost for low capacity weapons... It's ridiculous.

Worth mentioning that Max ammo isn't nearly as bad for the HMG, because a relative percentage of HMG ammo is much much higher than any other weapon in the game.

True. Ammo Capacity and reload speed can be helpful for a HMG, but they mean little to nothing for a dedicated forge gunner like me.

I wouldn't want to balance every weapon on the thought of what works well for HMGs anyway.

The mulitpliers were low for sidearms, higher for light weapons, highest for heavy weapons. They're all the same for all weapons now (and higher).

Rapid Reload (+3% Reload Speed per level) 6x (1,865,520 SP to max) (requires Proficiency 2)

Forge Gun (not listed - please fix that)
Heavy Machine Gun________8s________-1.2_______6.8s
Assault Rifle______________3s________-0.45______2.55s
Laser Rifle_______________4s________-0.6________3.4s
Mass Driver______________4s________-0.6________3.4s
Plasma Cannon___________3.5s______-0.525______2.975s
Scrambler Rifle___________2.5s______-0.375_______2.125s
Shotgun_________________0.6s______-0.09_______0.51s
Sniper Rifle_______________4s_______-0.6________3.4s
Swarm Launcher__________4.5s______-0.675______3.825s
Flaylock Pistol____________2.5s______-0.375______2.125s
Scrambler Pistol___________2.5s_____-0.375_______2.125s
Submachine Gun__________3s_______-0.45________2.55s

where 1st value = base, 2nd value = modifier at rank 5, and 3rd value = base + modifier

Forge guns have no listed reload time, for whatever reason. However, it can be assumed that it would be a reasonably large difference, like the Heavy Machine Gun. Rapid Reload gives you 15% faster reload at max at a cost of about 2 million SP. What does 2 million SP get you? Well, in most cases it amounts to a difference of less than a second. I wouldnGÇÖt say itGÇÖs imperceptible exactly, but IGÇÖd have to question if itGÇÖs GÇ£worth itGÇ¥ for any but the slowest reloading weapons. This is another case where the flat percentage can seem relatively helpful for the slower weapons (Heavy ones), albeitGǪ extremely expensive for the questionable utility. You could save yourself 2 million SP by being more careful about where youGÇÖre reloading more often than not; as if you donGÇÖt have 8s to reload...you may not have 6.8s either.

For most of the light weapons and sidearms, it becomes a considerably more questionable endeavor. Is shaving a fraction of a second off your reload worth 2 million SP? Pre-uprising, you could say that the skill was benefitting all of your weapons at least (even if very marginally in some cases). Now, youGÇÖre faced with a 2 million SP buy-in to get less than a second off only a specific weapon type.

It calls to mind the similarly marginal bonus given to Caldari Assaults (Hybrid Reload speed +2%). However, in the case of the Caldari Assault, they unlock prototype suits, get the questionable reload bonus across multiple weapons if nothing else, and get a shield regen bonus at the same time. For that relatively broad set of gains, they pay with an 8x skill GÇô consider that rapid reload only gives you less than a second off reload for 6x.

The skillset currently seems pretty broken or warped in cost to me. I would say that adjustments need to be made to the individual percentages on the various weapon types to make this skill GÇ£worth itGÇ¥ in any sense of the word. Even at 25% for light weapons or sidearms, IGÇÖm not sure if the skill would warrant a 6x multiplier either. This needs to be addressed.

There used to be a proficiency skill that added up to 15% of a bonus to all of the above.

Hey there great thread. Nice work

I agree with you. A lot of those bonuses are pretty much useless and never considered by player before they just dont know what to do with their SPs.

Max Ammo Capacity 932,760 SP to max

I agree with your solution. Skills need to be scale regarding how much of a gain they offer at lvl 5.
Now, regarding the SP investment, i think every weapon should get one to two more full magazines worth of ammo. Let's say 2 for "spray" weapons and 1 for more ballistic ones.

Forge Gun____________16_____+4_______20 => 5% is ok.
Heavy Machine Gun____1500____+600____2100 => 8%
Assault Rifle___________300____+120_____420 => 8% per level
Laser Rifle____________500____+125_____700 => 8%
Mass Driver___________18_____+4.5______24 => 7%
Plasma Cannon________9______+3_______12 => 7%
Scrambler Rifle________225_____+90______315 => 8% regarding the assault variant total ammo. I think it's closer to AR
Assault Scrambler______360_____+144_____504 => 8% (well that works)
Shotgun______________32_____+8_______40 => Sounds good
Sniper Rifle___________25______+10____35 => 8%
Swarm Launcher_______6_______+3_____9 => 10%
Flaylock Pistol_________21______6______27 => 6%
Scrambler Pistol_______42______12_____54 => 6%
Submachine Gun______480_____+160____640 => 7% (would make 168..)

On the other hand, i'd disagree with a "clip size enhancement per level" . It could disturb the balance or make weapon behave differently than what they're intended to.


Rapid Reload (1,865,520 SP to max)

This skill costs way to much SP to be any kind of interesting. Couldnt agree more there. You pay this skill as much SPs as you needed (more or less) back in chromosome to get both basic and proficiency skill for rapid reloading so it only makes sense we get the same effect : 5% per level. 25% overall.

Also, i'd take down the multiplier one step to a x5.

Would give us :

Forge Gun (not listed - please fix that)
Heavy Machine Gun________8s________2_______6s
Assault Rifle______________3s________0.75______2.25s
Laser Rifle_______________4s________1________3s
Mass Driver______________4s________1________3s
Plasma Cannon___________3.5s______-0.875______2,625s
Scrambler Rifle___________2.5s______-0,625_______1.875s
Shotgun_________________0.6s______-0.15_______0.45s (let's not forget this is per slug. full clip is like 1s saved)
Sniper Rifle_______________4s________1________3s
Swarm Launcher__________4.5s______-1.125______3,375s
Flaylock Pistol____________2.5s______-0,625_______1.875s
Scrambler Pistol___________2.5s______-0,625_______1.875s
Submachine Gun__________3s________0.75______2.25s


Fitting Optimization (1,865,520 SP to max)

This skill is the most idiotic one there is in Dust imo. I dont what to say about it except SP sink.
Under 10% per level (or more) i dont see why anyone would ruin SP there.

Well no, but had common sense prevailed, the extended skill trees would have been individualized for each weapon type, rather than the same skill repeated on each weapon.

I think the Optimization skill should be something specific to each weapon or just remove it. Maybe it is there for unlocks when we get customization but atm - pass

I also think that the Reload skill should be a 1x or 2x - it is already far down the weapon tree so you can infer that if you have used a weapon for that long you "know" how to shave time off your reload. It should be a reawrd once you have gone that far, not another chore.

Part of the reason we moved to the per-weapon skill tree was so that we could give weapon-specific skills. Due to time constraints at the end of last release we didn't get to "personalize" them as much as we'd like (using percentage bonuses instead of single round bonuses for weapons with smaller capacities like the Swarm Launcher, for instance).

Rest assured, we'll be addressing these secondary skills as soon as we can. It's not ideal and I apologize for that, but we are fixing it.

As it is, I'm not sure if the reload is worth ANY SP for some weapons. The fitting optimization has similar issues (as noted, the Core Flaylock has 2 PG, so at Rank V Optimization, you may not actually reduce the PG use of the highest PG gun at all). That's an extreme example, but they all have issues.

I don't have any issues with the skills being expensive per se, they just need to be worth it. Cheaper but still worthless wouldn't be a good route to go in my mind.

I could live with the 1 pg less per level for fitting optimisation. But that won't fit every weapons. And some would reach 0 PG.
Got to be carefull there.

Fitting optimization should remain percentage based, but shouldn't be in every skill tree. IMO, part of the problem is that currently, all weapons are relatively easy to fit into nearly any dropsuit you'd like, baring heavy on non-heavy suits. Eve gets around this dilemma by making some weapons fitting req very high, with certain ships gaining a substantial bonus to fitting them, so that you can't throw them onto everything.

Once CCP fleshes out proper suit bonuses and proper tertiary skills (after proficiency) then we will start to see that last .75 PG start to matter.

Just off the top of my head here with little thought, but for weapons like the Flaylock and MD, a tert skill that improves blast radius. Something along the lines, lore wise, of improving the explosives in your shells. For laser weapons like the scramblers, a tert skill that allows you to focus your crystals better, improving damage. Ect...

Tertiary skills should be deep SP sinks, at least x6 but prob x8 skills. For weapons that have substantial PG requirements, the fitting opt. skills should be tert skills.

Part of the reason we moved to the per-weapon skill tree was so that we could give weapon-specific skills. Due to time constraints at the end of last release we didn't get to "personalize" them as much as we'd like (using percentage bonuses instead of single round bonuses for weapons with smaller capacities like the Swarm Launcher, for instance).

Rest assured, we'll be addressing these secondary skills as soon as we can. It's not ideal and I apologize for that, but we are fixing it.

Part of the reason we moved to the per-weapon skill tree was so that we could give weapon-specific skills. Due to time constraints at the end of last release we didn't get to "personalize" them as much as we'd like (using percentage bonuses instead of single round bonuses for weapons with smaller capacities like the Swarm Launcher, for instance).

Rest assured, we'll be addressing these secondary skills as soon as we can. It's not ideal and I apologize for that, but we are fixing it.

Regarding the PG skill. I'd honestly just take it off completely.

Part of the reason we moved to the per-weapon skill tree was so that we could give weapon-specific skills. Due to time constraints at the end of last release we didn't get to "personalize" them as much as we'd like (using percentage bonuses instead of single round bonuses for weapons with smaller capacities like the Swarm Launcher, for instance).

Rest assured, we'll be addressing these secondary skills as soon as we can. It's not ideal and I apologize for that, but we are fixing it.

Part of the reason we moved to the per-weapon skill tree was so that we could give weapon-specific skills. Due to time constraints at the end of last release we didn't get to "personalize" them as much as we'd like (using percentage bonuses instead of single round bonuses for weapons with smaller capacities like the Swarm Launcher, for instance).

Rest assured, we'll be addressing these secondary skills as soon as we can. It's not ideal and I apologize for that, but we are fixing it.

So, the Flaylock alone is getting fixes for this? What gives?

I think with the short turnaround in the updates they haven't got much time to balance the skills and think of appropriate bonuses. That and the fact the flaylock has been at the top of all the forums for the past month. Future updates will see these skills fixed I'm sure.

Bumping for exposure.

Will this be coming in 1.2?

Thank you for addressing this issue with more detail.

I currently have level 3 fitting optimization for my SR since it really does help reduce the PG cost.

However, the one point you keep bringing up is that these skills cost tons for very little gains. The main problem I have with these skills is not having a reason to go past level 3 with them. To get to level 4 and 5 costs a huge amount more than it does to get just those first 3 levels. At that point, it's a better investment to spend points into skills like engineering to get more pg than I would from the optimization skill.

Even so, I've come to the understanding that late game these are the skills that determine the slight advantage you get from having a huge amount of sp. You could either specialize further and spend 10 million getting half a second off your reload, some more pg to fit better items, and a slightly larger ammo supply, or you could specialize into a completely different role.

To sum up my thoughts: These skills should be changed to become more weapon specific, but they should still act as late game skills that don't give you too much of an advantage over other players.