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Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2013.05.29 07:51:00 -
[1] - Quote
I think you should consider retooling the current secondary weapon skills (namely, Max Ammo, Fitting Optimization, and Rapid Reload). Pre-uprising, there was a sensible explanation for a fixed percentage basis on these kinds of skills: single skills impacted entire classes of weapons, meaning what was balanced for one weapon type would be hugely unbalancing for another. Uprising has changed that. Now, each and every weapon has its very own specific set of secondary skills. However, these skills remain a uniform block of fixed values which are often underwhelming for the cost or completely impractical for a given weapon type.
My impression is that CCP intends the game to have a long-haul approach to skill mastery and development, which would suggest you would like there to be a variety of desirable skills for people to invest in. If a particularly expensive skill has marginal or non-existent benefits, this relegates the skill to the dust bin. I believe the point will be clearer with specifics though:
Max Ammo Capacity (+5% Maximum Ammo Capacity per level) 3x (932,760 SP to max)
Forge Gun____________16_____+4_______20 Heavy Machine Gun____1500____+375____1875 Assault Rifle___________300____+75_____375 Laser Rifle____________500____+125_____625 Mass Driver___________18_____+4.5______22.5 Plasma Cannon________9______+2.25_____11.25 Scrambler Rifle________225_____+56.25___281.25 Shotgun______________32_____+8_______40 Sniper Rifle___________25______+6.25____31.25 Swarm Launcher_______6_______+1.5_____7.5 Flaylock Pistol_________21______+5.25____26.25 Scrambler Pistol_______42______+10.5_____52.5 Submachine Gun______480_____+120______600
where 1st value = base, 2nd value = modifier at rank 5, and 3rd value = base + modifier
Some of the Ammo Capacity skills do seem like they would benefit the user, but thereGÇÖs a questionable value here in general. For about a million SP, you get a small increase to your max ammo. Most of the time, considering how long you tend to survive in Dust, supply depots, nanohives, and death are more likely routes to have more ammo. All of those have a greater return in ammo as well. Basically, itGÇÖs more efficient to bring even a militia nanohive with you than to use a million SP to get what amounts to another clip in most cases.
Individually, some of the upgrades are more desirable. Another full magazine with an AR, a fair amount of HMG ammo, or a sizable lump of SMG rounds are all desirable aside from the possible waste of SP. On the other hand, itGÇÖs not clear if youGÇÖre even getting more than one round with the Plasma Cannon, and if youGÇÖre notGǪ why would you ever bother maxing the skill? The swarm launcher also seems to get 1 or maybe 2 more shots. The flat percentage approach to an ammo bonus just doesnGÇÖt seem equally valuable for across the different weapon types.
So, thereGÇÖs two basic problems with Max Ammo:
- ItGÇÖs probably easier to supplement your ammo in different ways.
- The relative value of the flat percentage varies wildly across weapon types and is questionable for the cost of 1 million SP
ItGÇÖs interesting that if the fruit of your labors in Ammo Capacity was literally GÇ£Add one more shotGÇ¥, several of the ammo skills would actually be better off. ItGÇÖs a pretty sad statement on an GÇ£ammo capacityGÇ¥ skill when a level doesnGÇÖt even grant you another shot. Ammo is relatively useful in comparison with the other two skills though.
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Zeylon Rho
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429
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Posted - 2013.05.29 07:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
reserved |
Zeylon Rho
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429
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Posted - 2013.05.29 07:52:00 -
[3] - Quote
reserved |
Zeylon Rho
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442
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Posted - 2013.05.29 08:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
Jen Gelfling wrote:Those are some fugly charts.
Yeah, well... pasting my charts into the box borked their formatting, and their didn't seem to be a built-in tool for tables in the posting form. I tried to fix the spacing with underscores... |
Zeylon Rho
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442
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Posted - 2013.05.29 08:30:00 -
[5] - Quote
Cosgar's Alt wrote:So what I'm getting out of this is outside of ammo capacity, all the secondary skills are a complete waste for the SP investment...
... and often, ammo capacity is as well too. They all have serious issues. The fact that equipment is a bit tighter makes ammo capacity marginally more useful, though really - a nanohive is one of the most likely things you'd still use your equip slot for with injectors and links having issues right now. |
Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2013.05.29 10:18:00 -
[6] - Quote
Treablo James Howard wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:The advantage these skills present don't seem worth the millions of SP at all. They will when the time is right. How would you like your meta 10 suit and equipment to be lost over a .25 second reload difference? Or better yet your district to be lost of that reload speed. Because instead of you defending a point he was able to hack it? I believe Vin Diesel said. It doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile. Winning is winning.
Or.... you could switch to your sidearm and kill him at the cost of no SP. |
Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2013.05.29 10:19:00 -
[7] - Quote
Fun fact with respect to firearms - for that less than a second advantage you're talking about, you could take all three current sidearm guns to Proto... |
Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2013.05.29 20:43:00 -
[8] - Quote
Several of the secondary skills were different pre-uprising. They also had more than one tier: for example Sidearm Rapid Reload would be followed up by Rapid Reload 'Proficiency". The first reload skill was effectively the same as the one we have now, (3% per level), but impacted ALL weapons of a given type... and was of course much much cheaper. It was the proficiency skill after it (2% to reload) that was comparatively of more questionable value.
I'd say when the opportunity cost was small pre-uprising (relatively cheap reload skill that impacts every light weapon? Yes.), there was a good reason to invest in a reload skill that was only 3% per rank. Not a huge difference for many weapons, but surely an improvement in some slight ways. The subsequent and expensive 2% reload skill? Not so much.
The newer versions have the same marginal base quality, with a much more narrow scope, and a cost higher than some of the proficiency skills pre-uprising. It's a perfect storm of suck.
I figure it could cut either way. If they made it cheaper, then the fact it's not a huge improvement might not be as huge a deal. However, it should probably be adjusted for given weapon types anyway (for the OP-mentioned disparity that is skill-value compared to the fixed SP cost). If they're not interested in making it cheaper, they should consider bringing the bonuses in line with the cost (and again, that's aside from scaling it to individual weapons better).
Booby Tuesdays wrote:I was asking this same question last night. It seems to me that the math has changed. I run a MD, so every shell counts. I had a full extra clip last build with Capacity Proficiency. In Chromosome, all my numbers rounded down. A 5% increase to my basic 18 shell ammo pool nets me a .9 shell increase. Last build I didn't get anything from a .9 increase, this build I got an extra shell from the .9 addition. That's all fine and dandy, I figured CCP finally cut me a break, no way the next increase of 1.8 shells will give me 2 right? Well I'm happy to say that it did. Will lvl 3, with it's 2.7 shell increase give me 3 shells? Stay tuned. I could be wrong entirely as far as how the math calculates, I was last build. Is this skill adding 5% to 18 every time, or is it 5, 10, 15, etc each time? I'm confused as to how this skill mathematizes things...
The rounding isn't always generous, as I understand it. I know Minmatar Assaults with that clip-size bonus aren't getting an extra shot in the Flaylock till rank 4 or so I think (their variant skill impacting sidearm clip-size).
It's entirely possible they changed their rounding math or something else when they shifted all these skills elsewhere. Mass Drivers work out to 4.5 percentage-wise of course, so it IS about 1 round per level. I'm curious if you'd get a fifth round at 5. It'd sure suck if it caps at 4 with the "4.5" value. |
Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2013.05.30 07:18:00 -
[9] - Quote
If I had to guess, I think they tried to "rebalance" fitting in uprising (all the people having issues with fits, more expensive core skills), and decided to alter the nature of the "weapon upgrade" skills (Chromosome fitting) for that. In Chromosome, like Sharpshooter et al., they were global skills for meeting fitting reqs.
There were also two tiers, like the other secondaries, a regular and proficiency (at 5% and 3% rates). However, both skills were CPU-based global reductions. The relative percentage gains on the large CPU numbers are of course... larger.
I think they realized after making fitting harder on both PG/CPU that there wasn't much in the way of making PG workable (Whereas CPU for weapons has a built-in reduction in the operation skill). So, getting leeway in your PG became the fitting skill. However, just swapping CPU for PG on the fitting skill doesn't really work like that, the smaller numbers even on the high end ensure that it's barely useful at high levels for the best possible weapons, and worthless on lower tiers.
I used the Scrambler example in the OP, but if you look at lower level scramblers (like standard) the picture is even bleaker. If a STD Scrambler Pistol requires 2 PG (which is the case I believe), and rounding is normalish (up from .5) than you wouldn't get a single point of PG out of maxed optimization (for 2 million SP). The situation is similar for lower tiers on other weapons (SMGs at 3 PG STD, etc.). |
Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2013.05.30 15:56:00 -
[10] - Quote
Kelrie Nae'bre wrote:Zeylon Rho wrote:Some Suggested Changes
I'd thought I'd throw out a few idea on how the skills can be "fixed", as opposed to just suggesting they be changed in general.
Max Ammo Capacity
The foremost task here is adjusting the percentages to a point where the ammo gains are useful across all the weapon types. If it needs a boost to 8% per level, or such, that shouldn't be hard be hard to implement on an individual basis. Remember, the skill is at a disadvantage in utility when its effects are outdone by militia nanohives (because it currently gives about 1 clip at best).
Further give the benefit on rounding on the last rank. No one wants whether or not they're going to get an extra bit of ammo on the last (and most expensive rank) to be a question mark. If you can't just do +1 ammo per level on the low ammo gear, at least make sure the rounding benefits them on rank 5.
Finally, and I think most appealingly, add a percentage gain to max clip size (e.g. +5% max ammo, +2% max clip per level, etc.). This is harder to balance than simply more ammo, but I think at a low percentage it would make a useful and desirable addition to every weapon. The caveat is this: round down until rank 5, if they haven't gotten an extra round in their clip by 5, round up at that point. So, a 2% gain in clip size on a swarm launcher per level wouldn't result in an extra round till rank 5 (1 million SP or so).
On other weapons, this could similarly be both conservative but useful. If a new TAR has a 12-14 round clip (like another game's DMR), then they'd gain 1 or 2 rounds at most for rank 5. The standard AR would 6 more rounds in a clip at rank 5, etc.
I think it would give the skill desirability and usefulness beyond the more questionable value of a clip's worth of ammo to carry with you.
Fitting Optimization
If you can't adjust the skill for every weapon, consider making it a flat +1 to PG while that weapon is equipped. The skill retains its exorbitant cost, but gains a direct and appreciable benefit across the board. This makes the use of lower-tiered weapons in the class much more efficient as well.
Now, this would appear to have a side effect of actually "adding" PG to your suit on the lower tier (e.g. if you hit rank 5 with +5 PG, and equip a pistol using 2 PG). However, I think this is actually something that fits with the 6x cost you've given the skill. The person that get to use this skill at all has already hit Proficiency 4 - an extremely high bar in weapon specialization. It would cost them 2 million SP to actually reap that benefit, and it would ONLY come when they: A) Are using that weapon type. B) Are using low-tiered versions of that type. I would however limit the bonus to being in effect a single time per weapon type (e.g., no double bonus when dual wielding).
As in-universe justification, at the weapon mastery of capping a 2x Op, 5x Prof, and 6x Opt skills... you can feed the excess power from the fuel cells in your weapon back into your suit. I like the max ammo idea with clip-size bonuses, but I've never managed to get a weapon to proficiency 4 - so the latter bit would be a long time coming. Just maxing Operation, Proficiency, and Optimization would be like... 4 million SP. That's pretty firmly in the domain of luxury skills there.
Well, that's the point I guess. If you have to spend 4 million SP to get there, it should at least be worth something. |
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Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2013.05.31 05:17:00 -
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Dehlia Metii wrote:Useful skills? Madness!
I'd like them to be things that every player would at least "consider" for every weapon. It shouldn't be a matter of "reload? Well on that weapon it sucks", etc. With the skills specific to weapon types now, they have the power to fix this. |
Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2013.05.31 23:46:00 -
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Noc Tempre wrote:There was no point splitting up the skills unless the weapons were going to be handled individually. You better be getting a lot more for such an expensive SP sink.
The skills were a bit questionable even when they were cheaper and global too. I'm not really sure what they were thinking here with respect to the multipliers. |
Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2013.06.01 17:12:00 -
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Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:Unfortunately, Heavies can't carry nano hives and aren't always close to a resupply. Squad mates, and generous blueberries, with hives make life easier, but sometimes that little bit of extra ammo is needed. But at the current SP cost for low capacity weapons... It's ridiculous.
Worth mentioning that Max ammo isn't nearly as bad for the HMG, because a relative percentage of HMG ammo is much much higher than any other weapon in the game. |
Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2013.06.01 17:13:00 -
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Kelrie Nae'bre wrote:What did 3% reload per level cost when it covered all light weapons?
The mulitpliers were low for sidearms, higher for light weapons, highest for heavy weapons. They're all the same for all weapons now (and higher). |
Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2013.06.02 10:05:00 -
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That was the case for all the old secondary skills actually, Sidearms had the lowest multiplier, then Light, then Heavy. Weapons are equally valuable now, in theory... |
Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2013.06.03 14:39:00 -
[16] - Quote
Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:Zeylon Rho wrote:Worth mentioning that Max ammo isn't nearly as bad for the HMG, because a relative percentage of HMG ammo is much much higher than any other weapon in the game. True. Ammo Capacity and reload speed can be helpful for a HMG, but they mean little to nothing for a dedicated forge gunner like me.
I wouldn't want to balance every weapon on the thought of what works well for HMGs anyway.
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Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2013.06.04 10:56:00 -
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Jenova's Witness wrote:Zeylon Rho wrote:Kelrie Nae'bre wrote:What did 3% reload per level cost when it covered all light weapons? The mulitpliers were low for sidearms, higher for light weapons, highest for heavy weapons. They're all the same for all weapons now (and higher). There used to be a proficiency skill that added up to 15% of a bonus to all of the above.
Someone that hadn't played pre-uprising would be unaware that the reload/etc. skills actually had different costs for sidearms/light/heavy weapons. The fact they had multiple tiers (standard and a proficiency) is even murkier. Either way, the current numbers speak for themselves I think. |
Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2013.06.04 17:38:00 -
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Laurent Cazaderon wrote:Hey there great thread. Nice work
I agree with you. A lot of those bonuses are pretty much useless and never considered by player before they just dont know what to do with their SPs.
Max Ammo Capacity 932,760 SP to max
I agree with your solution. Skills need to be scale regarding how much of a gain they offer at lvl 5. Now, regarding the SP investment, i think every weapon should get one to two more full magazines worth of ammo. Let's say 2 for "spray" weapons and 1 for more ballistic ones.
Forge Gun____________16_____+4_______20 => 5% is ok. Heavy Machine Gun____1500____+600____2100 => 8% Assault Rifle___________300____+120_____420 => 8% per level Laser Rifle____________500____+125_____700 => 8% Mass Driver___________18_____+4.5______24 => 7% Plasma Cannon________9______+3_______12 => 7% Scrambler Rifle________225_____+90______315 => 8% regarding the assault variant total ammo. I think it's closer to AR Assault Scrambler______360_____+144_____504 => 8% (well that works) Shotgun______________32_____+8_______40 => Sounds good Sniper Rifle___________25______+10____35 => 8% Swarm Launcher_______6_______+3_____9 => 10% Flaylock Pistol_________21______6______27 => 6% Scrambler Pistol_______42______12_____54 => 6% Submachine Gun______480_____+160____640 => 7% (would make 168..)
On the other hand, i'd disagree with a "clip size enhancement per level" . It could disturb the balance or make weapon behave differently than what they're intended to.
Rapid Reload (1,865,520 SP to max)
This skill costs way to much SP to be any kind of interesting. Couldnt agree more there. You pay this skill as much SPs as you needed (more or less) back in chromosome to get both basic and proficiency skill for rapid reloading so it only makes sense we get the same effect : 5% per level. 25% overall.
Also, i'd take down the multiplier one step to a x5.
Would give us :
Forge Gun (not listed - please fix that) Heavy Machine Gun________8s________2_______6s Assault Rifle______________3s________0.75______2.25s Laser Rifle_______________4s________1________3s Mass Driver______________4s________1________3s Plasma Cannon___________3.5s______-0.875______2,625s Scrambler Rifle___________2.5s______-0,625_______1.875s Shotgun_________________0.6s______-0.15_______0.45s (let's not forget this is per slug. full clip is like 1s saved) Sniper Rifle_______________4s________1________3s Swarm Launcher__________4.5s______-1.125______3,375s Flaylock Pistol____________2.5s______-0,625_______1.875s Scrambler Pistol___________2.5s______-0,625_______1.875s Submachine Gun__________3s________0.75______2.25s
Fitting Optimization (1,865,520 SP to max)
This skill is the most idiotic one there is in Dust imo. I dont what to say about it except SP sink. Under 10% per level (or more) i dont see why anyone would ruin SP there.
Thanks for the feedback. Do you think a flat 1 PG per level on fitting a given weapon type would be too much as well? I'm not sure what else would be relevant with a post-proficiency-IV skill at 6x. |
Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2013.06.05 01:29:00 -
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Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:Zeylon Rho wrote:Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:Zeylon Rho wrote:Worth mentioning that Max ammo isn't nearly as bad for the HMG, because a relative percentage of HMG ammo is much much higher than any other weapon in the game. True. Ammo Capacity and reload speed can be helpful for a HMG, but they mean little to nothing for a dedicated forge gunner like me. I wouldn't want to balance every weapon on the thought of what works well for HMGs anyway. Well no, but had common sense prevailed, the extended skill trees would have been individualized for each weapon type, rather than the same skill repeated on each weapon.
Right. The prior system seemed predicated on the idea that the skills were "more valuable" for heavy weapons, as all of the skills were at their peak cost for heavy weapons. It was interesting in a way too, because despite being "global" skills, the heavy weapon skills were effectively only impacting TWO weapons (and there are still only two heavy weapons).
That aside, they have all the skills the same now, with all the costs the same. This seems to ignore both their prior inclination, but also common sense as far as the usefulness with respect to various weapons. This ranges from the skills being of little use (most of the reload) to absolutely no use at all (fitting skill for Flaylock pistols).
It makes you wonder why they split the skills up to begin with. People actually picked up the old skills (if only because they impacted many weapons at once). No one wants the skills as-is. |
Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2013.06.06 01:08:00 -
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Daxxis KANNAH wrote:I think the Optimization skill should be something specific to each weapon or just remove it. Maybe it is there for unlocks when we get customization but atm - pass
I also think that the Reload skill should be a 1x or 2x - it is already far down the weapon tree so you can infer that if you have used a weapon for that long you "know" how to shave time off your reload. It should be a reawrd once you have gone that far, not another chore.
As it is, I'm not sure if the reload is worth ANY SP for some weapons. The fitting optimization has similar issues (as noted, the Core Flaylock has 2 PG, so at Rank V Optimization, you may not actually reduce the PG use of the highest PG gun at all). That's an extreme example, but they all have issues.
I don't have any issues with the skills being expensive per se, they just need to be worth it. Cheaper but still worthless wouldn't be a good route to go in my mind. |
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Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2013.06.06 02:19:00 -
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CCP Remnant wrote:Part of the reason we moved to the per-weapon skill tree was so that we could give weapon-specific skills. Due to time constraints at the end of last release we didn't get to "personalize" them as much as we'd like (using percentage bonuses instead of single round bonuses for weapons with smaller capacities like the Swarm Launcher, for instance).
Rest assured, we'll be addressing these secondary skills as soon as we can. It's not ideal and I apologize for that, but we are fixing it.
Good to know, thanks for the response. |
Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2013.06.08 14:35:00 -
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They could probably add 8x tertiary skills.... and KEEP the fitting skills and just make them work. Weapons aren't as easy to fit on many suits as you suggest (obviously, PG isn't a factor with something like the Flaylock, but that's a separate issue). If anything, fitting in general has become more difficult as they've tightened up the CPU/PG on suits, and made fitting skills 5x. |
Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2013.08.07 06:32:00 -
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RINON114 wrote:Freya Tegley wrote:So, the Flaylock alone is getting fixes for this? What gives? I think with the short turnaround in the updates they haven't got much time to balance the skills and think of appropriate bonuses. That and the fact the flaylock has been at the top of all the forums for the past month. Future updates will see these skills fixed I'm sure.
Ehhh..... they mention the Swarm Launcher ammo skill by name in this thread, but they didn't change that one. |
Zeylon Rho
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Posted - 2013.08.19 13:36:00 -
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They could alter all the skills to give fixed amounts really; it's a perk of having a separate skill for every weapon. If they decided "30 rounds" was a good chunk for AR for instance, then the skill description could just be "Adds 30 rounds to max ammo per level".
With a weapon-specific skill there's no reason not to, other than time constraints, and I'd assume balancing is worth at least a little time. Is [blank] enough ammo? Is [blank] enough of a difference in reload time? I think ammo changes are a little less balance-sensitive, as the game already provides multiple means of restoring your ammo.
Reload is a bit iffy - it obviously can be a factor in a fire fight, but it's unlikely to be a major one often otherwise.
Fitting probably has the largest global effect, as it impacts what you can actually bring with you. At the same time, it's a very late-skill, as I previously noted... you have to be at proficiency 4 to even start to skill into it and it has a very high multiplier. It's effectively a multi-million SP buy-in for a skill that applies only when you're using a given weapon type. I still maintain that a fixed +1 PG per level would be a good approach there, as it gives a very good benefit even when using STD equipment. I still like the idea of excess PG over what you need getting fed back into your suit totals, making it a desirable skill to "max" to ease up your fitting (e.g. - Rank 5 fitting with a STD Scrambler Pistol gets +3 PG to deal with in your fitting... at the cost of getting a very very expensive skill to rank 5 of course). |
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