Pages: [1] 2 3 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
429
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 07:51:00 -
[1] - Quote
I think you should consider retooling the current secondary weapon skills (namely, Max Ammo, Fitting Optimization, and Rapid Reload). Pre-uprising, there was a sensible explanation for a fixed percentage basis on these kinds of skills: single skills impacted entire classes of weapons, meaning what was balanced for one weapon type would be hugely unbalancing for another. Uprising has changed that. Now, each and every weapon has its very own specific set of secondary skills. However, these skills remain a uniform block of fixed values which are often underwhelming for the cost or completely impractical for a given weapon type.
My impression is that CCP intends the game to have a long-haul approach to skill mastery and development, which would suggest you would like there to be a variety of desirable skills for people to invest in. If a particularly expensive skill has marginal or non-existent benefits, this relegates the skill to the dust bin. I believe the point will be clearer with specifics though:
Max Ammo Capacity (+5% Maximum Ammo Capacity per level) 3x (932,760 SP to max)
Forge Gun____________16_____+4_______20 Heavy Machine Gun____1500____+375____1875 Assault Rifle___________300____+75_____375 Laser Rifle____________500____+125_____625 Mass Driver___________18_____+4.5______22.5 Plasma Cannon________9______+2.25_____11.25 Scrambler Rifle________225_____+56.25___281.25 Shotgun______________32_____+8_______40 Sniper Rifle___________25______+6.25____31.25 Swarm Launcher_______6_______+1.5_____7.5 Flaylock Pistol_________21______+5.25____26.25 Scrambler Pistol_______42______+10.5_____52.5 Submachine Gun______480_____+120______600
where 1st value = base, 2nd value = modifier at rank 5, and 3rd value = base + modifier
Some of the Ammo Capacity skills do seem like they would benefit the user, but thereGÇÖs a questionable value here in general. For about a million SP, you get a small increase to your max ammo. Most of the time, considering how long you tend to survive in Dust, supply depots, nanohives, and death are more likely routes to have more ammo. All of those have a greater return in ammo as well. Basically, itGÇÖs more efficient to bring even a militia nanohive with you than to use a million SP to get what amounts to another clip in most cases.
Individually, some of the upgrades are more desirable. Another full magazine with an AR, a fair amount of HMG ammo, or a sizable lump of SMG rounds are all desirable aside from the possible waste of SP. On the other hand, itGÇÖs not clear if youGÇÖre even getting more than one round with the Plasma Cannon, and if youGÇÖre notGǪ why would you ever bother maxing the skill? The swarm launcher also seems to get 1 or maybe 2 more shots. The flat percentage approach to an ammo bonus just doesnGÇÖt seem equally valuable for across the different weapon types.
So, thereGÇÖs two basic problems with Max Ammo:
- ItGÇÖs probably easier to supplement your ammo in different ways.
- The relative value of the flat percentage varies wildly across weapon types and is questionable for the cost of 1 million SP
ItGÇÖs interesting that if the fruit of your labors in Ammo Capacity was literally GÇ£Add one more shotGÇ¥, several of the ammo skills would actually be better off. ItGÇÖs a pretty sad statement on an GÇ£ammo capacityGÇ¥ skill when a level doesnGÇÖt even grant you another shot. Ammo is relatively useful in comparison with the other two skills though.
|
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
429
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 07:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
reserved |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
429
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 07:52:00 -
[3] - Quote
reserved |
Jen Gelfling
Sinq Laison Gendarmes Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 08:14:00 -
[4] - Quote
Those are some fugly charts. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
442
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 08:20:00 -
[5] - Quote
Jen Gelfling wrote:Those are some fugly charts.
Yeah, well... pasting my charts into the box borked their formatting, and their didn't seem to be a built-in tool for tables in the posting form. I tried to fix the spacing with underscores... |
Cosgar's Alt
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 08:22:00 -
[6] - Quote
So what I'm getting out of this is outside of ammo capacity, all the secondary skills are a complete waste for the SP investment... |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
442
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 08:30:00 -
[7] - Quote
Cosgar's Alt wrote:So what I'm getting out of this is outside of ammo capacity, all the secondary skills are a complete waste for the SP investment...
... and often, ammo capacity is as well too. They all have serious issues. The fact that equipment is a bit tighter makes ammo capacity marginally more useful, though really - a nanohive is one of the most likely things you'd still use your equip slot for with injectors and links having issues right now. |
Sebrone Jamleux
Namtar Elite Gallente Federation
16
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 09:59:00 -
[8] - Quote
It would also be better to get a fixed amount per level to the max ammo or magazine size. Plasma Cannons could get 2 more shots per level while Shottys could 2 more shots in the mag at level 5 and 1 more shot per level. |
Treablo James Howard
WarRavens
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 10:04:00 -
[9] - Quote
Cosgar's Alt wrote:So what I'm getting out of this is outside of ammo capacity, all the secondary skills are a complete waste for the SP investment...
When you get into a close combat fire fight with another using the same gun. And he happens to reload .25 seconds faster than you and finish you off. You'll be cursing the gods. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
4067
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 10:06:00 -
[10] - Quote
The advantage these skills present don't seem worth the millions of SP at all. |
|
Treablo James Howard
WarRavens
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 10:12:00 -
[11] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:The advantage these skills present don't seem worth the millions of SP at all.
They will when the time is right.
How would you like your meta 10 suit and equipment to be lost over a .25 second reload difference?
Or better yet your district to be lost of that reload speed. Because instead of you defending a point he was able to hack it?
I believe Vin Diesel said. It doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile. Winning is winning. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
442
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 10:18:00 -
[12] - Quote
Treablo James Howard wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:The advantage these skills present don't seem worth the millions of SP at all. They will when the time is right. How would you like your meta 10 suit and equipment to be lost over a .25 second reload difference? Or better yet your district to be lost of that reload speed. Because instead of you defending a point he was able to hack it? I believe Vin Diesel said. It doesn't matter if you win by an inch or a mile. Winning is winning.
Or.... you could switch to your sidearm and kill him at the cost of no SP. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
451
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 10:19:00 -
[13] - Quote
Fun fact with respect to firearms - for that less than a second advantage you're talking about, you could take all three current sidearm guns to Proto... |
Cosgar's Alt
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 10:27:00 -
[14] - Quote
Treablo James Howard wrote:Cosgar's Alt wrote:So what I'm getting out of this is outside of ammo capacity, all the secondary skills are a complete waste for the SP investment... When you get into a close combat fire fight with another using the same gun. And he happens to reload .25 seconds faster than you and finish you off. You'll be cursing the gods. Mass Driver... |
Dehlia Metii
not in a corporation
4
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 17:01:00 -
[15] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:Fun fact with respect to firearms - for that less than a second advantage you're talking about, you could take all three current sidearm guns to Proto...
I don't know... three proto weapons... or less than half a second off reload. Hard choice.
|
Treablo James Howard
WarRavens
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 17:33:00 -
[16] - Quote
I'm just letting you know. The little things will make the biggest difference in the end. |
I-Shayz-I
ZionTCD Unclaimed.
293
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 17:58:00 -
[17] - Quote
Thank you for addressing this issue with more detail.
I currently have level 3 fitting optimization for my SR since it really does help reduce the PG cost.
However, the one point you keep bringing up is that these skills cost tons for very little gains. The main problem I have with these skills is not having a reason to go past level 3 with them. To get to level 4 and 5 costs a huge amount more than it does to get just those first 3 levels. At that point, it's a better investment to spend points into skills like engineering to get more pg than I would from the optimization skill.
Even so, I've come to the understanding that late game these are the skills that determine the slight advantage you get from having a huge amount of sp. You could either specialize further and spend 10 million getting half a second off your reload, some more pg to fit better items, and a slightly larger ammo supply, or you could specialize into a completely different role.
To sum up my thoughts: These skills should be changed to become more weapon specific, but they should still act as late game skills that don't give you too much of an advantage over other players. |
Booby Tuesdays
Ahrendee Mercenaries
73
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 19:00:00 -
[18] - Quote
I was asking this same question last night. It seems to me that the math has changed. I run a MD, so every shell counts. I had a full extra clip last build with Capacity Proficiency. In Chromosome, all my numbers rounded down. A 5% increase to my basic 18 shell ammo pool nets me a .9 shell increase. Last build I didn't get anything from a .9 increase, this build I got an extra shell from the .9 addition. That's all fine and dandy, I figured CCP finally cut me a break, no way the next increase of 1.8 shells will give me 2 right? Well I'm happy to say that it did. Will lvl 3, with it's 2.7 shell increase give me 3 shells? Stay tuned. I could be wrong entirely as far as how the math calculates, I was last build. Is this skill adding 5% to 18 every time, or is it 5, 10, 15, etc each time? I'm confused as to how this skill mathematizes things... |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
460
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 20:43:00 -
[19] - Quote
Several of the secondary skills were different pre-uprising. They also had more than one tier: for example Sidearm Rapid Reload would be followed up by Rapid Reload 'Proficiency". The first reload skill was effectively the same as the one we have now, (3% per level), but impacted ALL weapons of a given type... and was of course much much cheaper. It was the proficiency skill after it (2% to reload) that was comparatively of more questionable value.
I'd say when the opportunity cost was small pre-uprising (relatively cheap reload skill that impacts every light weapon? Yes.), there was a good reason to invest in a reload skill that was only 3% per rank. Not a huge difference for many weapons, but surely an improvement in some slight ways. The subsequent and expensive 2% reload skill? Not so much.
The newer versions have the same marginal base quality, with a much more narrow scope, and a cost higher than some of the proficiency skills pre-uprising. It's a perfect storm of suck.
I figure it could cut either way. If they made it cheaper, then the fact it's not a huge improvement might not be as huge a deal. However, it should probably be adjusted for given weapon types anyway (for the OP-mentioned disparity that is skill-value compared to the fixed SP cost). If they're not interested in making it cheaper, they should consider bringing the bonuses in line with the cost (and again, that's aside from scaling it to individual weapons better).
Booby Tuesdays wrote:I was asking this same question last night. It seems to me that the math has changed. I run a MD, so every shell counts. I had a full extra clip last build with Capacity Proficiency. In Chromosome, all my numbers rounded down. A 5% increase to my basic 18 shell ammo pool nets me a .9 shell increase. Last build I didn't get anything from a .9 increase, this build I got an extra shell from the .9 addition. That's all fine and dandy, I figured CCP finally cut me a break, no way the next increase of 1.8 shells will give me 2 right? Well I'm happy to say that it did. Will lvl 3, with it's 2.7 shell increase give me 3 shells? Stay tuned. I could be wrong entirely as far as how the math calculates, I was last build. Is this skill adding 5% to 18 every time, or is it 5, 10, 15, etc each time? I'm confused as to how this skill mathematizes things...
The rounding isn't always generous, as I understand it. I know Minmatar Assaults with that clip-size bonus aren't getting an extra shot in the Flaylock till rank 4 or so I think (their variant skill impacting sidearm clip-size).
It's entirely possible they changed their rounding math or something else when they shifted all these skills elsewhere. Mass Drivers work out to 4.5 percentage-wise of course, so it IS about 1 round per level. I'm curious if you'd get a fifth round at 5. It'd sure suck if it caps at 4 with the "4.5" value. |
Thor McStrut
Intara Direct Action Caldari State
17
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 20:54:00 -
[20] - Quote
This is a lot to read, but I agree. Every weapon needs there secondary prof skills to be tuned for the weapon it represents. |
|
Shijima Kuraimaru
WarRavens
206
|
Posted - 2013.05.29 23:45:00 -
[21] - Quote
Unfortunately, Heavies can't carry nano hives and aren't always close to a resupply. Squad mates, and generous blueberries, with hives make life easier, but sometimes that little bit of extra ammo is needed. But at the current SP cost for low capacity weapons... It's ridiculous. |
Joseph Ridgeson
WarRavens
196
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 02:35:00 -
[22] - Quote
Rapid Reloading is the biggest trap. It barely becomes noticeable when maxed and for that many points you could have gotten anything else. What makes me really curious is why a nigh-useless skill went from X2 to X6...
I am surprised to see that fitting optimization is also incredibly worthless, probably more so. But it makes sense because weapons are not a PG drain, they are a CPU drain. Just amazing.
Be well. |
Talos Alomar
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
832
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 05:10:00 -
[23] - Quote
Joseph Ridgeson wrote:Rapid Reloading is the biggest trap. It barely becomes noticeable when maxed and for that many points you could have gotten anything else. What makes me really curious is why a nigh-useless skill went from X2 to X6...
I am surprised to see that fitting optimization is also incredibly worthless, probably more so. But it makes sense because weapons are not a PG drain, they are a CPU drain. Just amazing.
Be well.
You know how the flaylock pistol takes no PG to fit? some of these skills just make no sense. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
467
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 07:18:00 -
[24] - Quote
If I had to guess, I think they tried to "rebalance" fitting in uprising (all the people having issues with fits, more expensive core skills), and decided to alter the nature of the "weapon upgrade" skills (Chromosome fitting) for that. In Chromosome, like Sharpshooter et al., they were global skills for meeting fitting reqs.
There were also two tiers, like the other secondaries, a regular and proficiency (at 5% and 3% rates). However, both skills were CPU-based global reductions. The relative percentage gains on the large CPU numbers are of course... larger.
I think they realized after making fitting harder on both PG/CPU that there wasn't much in the way of making PG workable (Whereas CPU for weapons has a built-in reduction in the operation skill). So, getting leeway in your PG became the fitting skill. However, just swapping CPU for PG on the fitting skill doesn't really work like that, the smaller numbers even on the high end ensure that it's barely useful at high levels for the best possible weapons, and worthless on lower tiers.
I used the Scrambler example in the OP, but if you look at lower level scramblers (like standard) the picture is even bleaker. If a STD Scrambler Pistol requires 2 PG (which is the case I believe), and rounding is normalish (up from .5) than you wouldn't get a single point of PG out of maxed optimization (for 2 million SP). The situation is similar for lower tiers on other weapons (SMGs at 3 PG STD, etc.). |
Kelrie Nae'bre
not in a corporation
22
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 08:18:00 -
[25] - Quote
Zeylon Rho wrote:Some Suggested Changes
I'd thought I'd throw out a few idea on how the skills can be "fixed", as opposed to just suggesting they be changed in general.
Max Ammo Capacity
The foremost task here is adjusting the percentages to a point where the ammo gains are useful across all the weapon types. If it needs a boost to 8% per level, or such, that shouldn't be hard be hard to implement on an individual basis. Remember, the skill is at a disadvantage in utility when its effects are outdone by militia nanohives (because it currently gives about 1 clip at best).
Further give the benefit on rounding on the last rank. No one wants whether or not they're going to get an extra bit of ammo on the last (and most expensive rank) to be a question mark. If you can't just do +1 ammo per level on the low ammo gear, at least make sure the rounding benefits them on rank 5.
Finally, and I think most appealingly, add a percentage gain to max clip size (e.g. +5% max ammo, +2% max clip per level, etc.). This is harder to balance than simply more ammo, but I think at a low percentage it would make a useful and desirable addition to every weapon. The caveat is this: round down until rank 5, if they haven't gotten an extra round in their clip by 5, round up at that point. So, a 2% gain in clip size on a swarm launcher per level wouldn't result in an extra round till rank 5 (1 million SP or so).
On other weapons, this could similarly be both conservative but useful. If a new TAR has a 12-14 round clip (like another game's DMR), then they'd gain 1 or 2 rounds at most for rank 5. The standard AR would 6 more rounds in a clip at rank 5, etc.
I think it would give the skill desirability and usefulness beyond the more questionable value of a clip's worth of ammo to carry with you.
Fitting Optimization
If you can't adjust the skill for every weapon, consider making it a flat +1 to PG while that weapon is equipped. The skill retains its exorbitant cost, but gains a direct and appreciable benefit across the board. This makes the use of lower-tiered weapons in the class much more efficient as well.
Now, this would appear to have a side effect of actually "adding" PG to your suit on the lower tier (e.g. if you hit rank 5 with +5 PG, and equip a pistol using 2 PG). However, I think this is actually something that fits with the 6x cost you've given the skill. The person that get to use this skill at all has already hit Proficiency 4 - an extremely high bar in weapon specialization. It would cost them 2 million SP to actually reap that benefit, and it would ONLY come when they: A) Are using that weapon type. B) Are using low-tiered versions of that type. I would however limit the bonus to being in effect a single time per weapon type (e.g., no double bonus when dual wielding).
As in-universe justification, at the weapon mastery of capping a 2x Op, 5x Prof, and 6x Opt skills... you can feed the excess power from the fuel cells in your weapon back into your suit.
I like the max ammo idea with clip-size bonuses, but I've never managed to get a weapon to proficiency 4 - so the latter bit would be a long time coming. Just maxing Operation, Proficiency, and Optimization would be like... 4 million SP. That's pretty firmly in the domain of luxury skills there. |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
469
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 15:56:00 -
[26] - Quote
Kelrie Nae'bre wrote:Zeylon Rho wrote:Some Suggested Changes
I'd thought I'd throw out a few idea on how the skills can be "fixed", as opposed to just suggesting they be changed in general.
Max Ammo Capacity
The foremost task here is adjusting the percentages to a point where the ammo gains are useful across all the weapon types. If it needs a boost to 8% per level, or such, that shouldn't be hard be hard to implement on an individual basis. Remember, the skill is at a disadvantage in utility when its effects are outdone by militia nanohives (because it currently gives about 1 clip at best).
Further give the benefit on rounding on the last rank. No one wants whether or not they're going to get an extra bit of ammo on the last (and most expensive rank) to be a question mark. If you can't just do +1 ammo per level on the low ammo gear, at least make sure the rounding benefits them on rank 5.
Finally, and I think most appealingly, add a percentage gain to max clip size (e.g. +5% max ammo, +2% max clip per level, etc.). This is harder to balance than simply more ammo, but I think at a low percentage it would make a useful and desirable addition to every weapon. The caveat is this: round down until rank 5, if they haven't gotten an extra round in their clip by 5, round up at that point. So, a 2% gain in clip size on a swarm launcher per level wouldn't result in an extra round till rank 5 (1 million SP or so).
On other weapons, this could similarly be both conservative but useful. If a new TAR has a 12-14 round clip (like another game's DMR), then they'd gain 1 or 2 rounds at most for rank 5. The standard AR would 6 more rounds in a clip at rank 5, etc.
I think it would give the skill desirability and usefulness beyond the more questionable value of a clip's worth of ammo to carry with you.
Fitting Optimization
If you can't adjust the skill for every weapon, consider making it a flat +1 to PG while that weapon is equipped. The skill retains its exorbitant cost, but gains a direct and appreciable benefit across the board. This makes the use of lower-tiered weapons in the class much more efficient as well.
Now, this would appear to have a side effect of actually "adding" PG to your suit on the lower tier (e.g. if you hit rank 5 with +5 PG, and equip a pistol using 2 PG). However, I think this is actually something that fits with the 6x cost you've given the skill. The person that get to use this skill at all has already hit Proficiency 4 - an extremely high bar in weapon specialization. It would cost them 2 million SP to actually reap that benefit, and it would ONLY come when they: A) Are using that weapon type. B) Are using low-tiered versions of that type. I would however limit the bonus to being in effect a single time per weapon type (e.g., no double bonus when dual wielding).
As in-universe justification, at the weapon mastery of capping a 2x Op, 5x Prof, and 6x Opt skills... you can feed the excess power from the fuel cells in your weapon back into your suit. I like the max ammo idea with clip-size bonuses, but I've never managed to get a weapon to proficiency 4 - so the latter bit would be a long time coming. Just maxing Operation, Proficiency, and Optimization would be like... 4 million SP. That's pretty firmly in the domain of luxury skills there.
Well, that's the point I guess. If you have to spend 4 million SP to get there, it should at least be worth something. |
Dehlia Metii
not in a corporation
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.30 20:26:00 -
[27] - Quote
Useful skills? Madness! |
Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
493
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 05:17:00 -
[28] - Quote
Dehlia Metii wrote:Useful skills? Madness!
I'd like them to be things that every player would at least "consider" for every weapon. It shouldn't be a matter of "reload? Well on that weapon it sucks", etc. With the skills specific to weapon types now, they have the power to fix this. |
Kelrie Nae'bre
not in a corporation
22
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 18:13:00 -
[29] - Quote
Maybe they can include this in the balance update? |
Driftward
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
129
|
Posted - 2013.05.31 18:53:00 -
[30] - Quote
+1 and bump, nice discussion of the current (dismal) affairs of weaponry skills. |
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 3 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |