DUST Search - [Feedback] Examining/adjusting the low-value secondary weapon skills (with MATH!)

I-Shayz-I wrote:

Thank you for addressing this issue with more detail.

I currently have level 3 fitting optimization for my SR since it really does help reduce the PG cost.

However, the one point you keep bringing up is that these skills cost tons for very little gains. The main problem I have with these skills is not having a reason to go past level 3 with them. To get to level 4 and 5 costs a huge amount more than it does to get just those first 3 levels. At that point, it's a better investment to spend points into skills like engineering to get more pg than I would from the optimization skill.

Even so, I've come to the understanding that late game these are the skills that determine the slight advantage you get from having a huge amount of sp. You could either specialize further and spend 10 million getting half a second off your reload, some more pg to fit better items, and a slightly larger ammo supply, or you could specialize into a completely different role.

To sum up my thoughts: These skills should be changed to become more weapon specific, but they should still act as late game skills that don't give you too much of an advantage over other players.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
Dante Kretschmer D3LTA ACADEMY 51	Posted - 2013.06.10 14:40:00 - [61] - Quote Great thread, I agree with everything the OP stated. Changes have to be made to make these skills worthwhile or at least decent. For 2mil sp there are better investments
RedBleach LeSanglant Company of Marcher Lords Amarr Empire 310	Posted - 2013.06.12 20:24:00 - [62] - Quote Agree wholeheartedly with the OP
D legendary hero One-Armed Bandits Unclaimed. 157	Posted - 2013.06.12 21:44:00 - [63] - Quote bump 1+ ^^this = yes
Buster Friently Rosen Association 767	Posted - 2013.06.28 00:54:00 - [64] - Quote CCP Remnant wrote: Part of the reason we moved to the per-weapon skill tree was so that we could give weapon-specific skills. Due to time constraints at the end of last release we didn't get to "personalize" them as much as we'd like (using percentage bonuses instead of single round bonuses for weapons with smaller capacities like the Swarm Launcher, for instance). Rest assured, we'll be addressing these secondary skills as soon as we can. It's not ideal and I apologize for that, but we are fixing it. Bumping for exposure. Will this be coming in 1.2?
Arcturis Vanguard Militaires-Sans-Frontieres 36	Posted - 2013.06.28 04:18:00 - [65] - Quote CCP Remnant wrote: Part of the reason we moved to the per-weapon skill tree was so that we could give weapon-specific skills. Due to time constraints at the end of last release we didn't get to "personalize" them as much as we'd like (using percentage bonuses instead of single round bonuses for weapons with smaller capacities like the Swarm Launcher, for instance). Rest assured, we'll be addressing these secondary skills as soon as we can. It's not ideal and I apologize for that, but we are fixing it. These were my exact thoughts as I was just reading through the body of the comments.
2100 Angels The Southern Legion RISE of LEGION 145	Posted - 2013.06.28 04:42:00 - [66] - Quote Laurent Cazaderon wrote: Regarding the PG skill. I'd honestly just take it off completely. No. No no no no no. We have a distinct lack of skills that give reductions in PG as it is. Removal would be a terrible idea.
Draco Cerberus Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 169	Posted - 2013.06.28 04:51:00 - [67] - Quote CCP Remnant wrote: Part of the reason we moved to the per-weapon skill tree was so that we could give weapon-specific skills. Due to time constraints at the end of last release we didn't get to "personalize" them as much as we'd like (using percentage bonuses instead of single round bonuses for weapons with smaller capacities like the Swarm Launcher, for instance). Rest assured, we'll be addressing these secondary skills as soon as we can. It's not ideal and I apologize for that, but we are fixing it. Do you have an estimation of approximately when they will be adjusted? By estimate I mean other than Soon or Later. Sometime in the next 3-6 months or sooner?
October SnowFox Vacuum Cleaner. LLC RUST415 37	Posted - 2013.07.08 05:35:00 - [68] - Quote CCP Remnant wrote: Part of the reason we moved to the per-weapon skill tree was so that we could give weapon-specific skills. Due to time constraints at the end of last release we didn't get to "personalize" them as much as we'd like (using percentage bonuses instead of single round bonuses for weapons with smaller capacities like the Swarm Launcher, for instance). Rest assured, we'll be addressing these secondary skills as soon as we can. It's not ideal and I apologize for that, but we are fixing it. Things like "Weapon balans" must be fixed in first step. I am "Logi" and I'm very disappointed in Scrambler Assault Rifle.... i m like cannon fodder...
Oso Peresoso RisingSuns 151	Posted - 2013.07.08 06:14:00 - [69] - Quote this analysis is right on the money. And this is why we have people that have played since closed beta who managed to sink their SP into worthless lvl 5 skills and then cry for a respec.
Freya Tegley Algintal Core Gallente Federation 8	Posted - 2013.08.01 21:01:00 - [70] - Quote So, the Flaylock alone is getting fixes for this? What gives?

RINON114 B.S.A.A. General Tso's Alliance 373	Posted - 2013.08.03 02:37:00 - [71] - Quote Freya Tegley wrote: So, the Flaylock alone is getting fixes for this? What gives? I think with the short turnaround in the updates they haven't got much time to balance the skills and think of appropriate bonuses. That and the fact the flaylock has been at the top of all the forums for the past month. Future updates will see these skills fixed I'm sure.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1770	Posted - 2013.08.07 06:32:00 - [72] - Quote RINON114 wrote: Freya Tegley wrote: So, the Flaylock alone is getting fixes for this? What gives? I think with the short turnaround in the updates they haven't got much time to balance the skills and think of appropriate bonuses. That and the fact the flaylock has been at the top of all the forums for the past month. Future updates will see these skills fixed I'm sure. Ehhh..... they mention the Swarm Launcher ammo skill by name in this thread, but they didn't change that one.
Needless Sacermendor Red Fox Brigade 350	Posted - 2013.08.18 22:57:00 - [73] - Quote Buster Friently wrote: CCP Remnant wrote: Part of the reason we moved to the per-weapon skill tree was so that we could give weapon-specific skills. Due to time constraints at the end of last release we didn't get to "personalize" them as much as we'd like (using percentage bonuses instead of single round bonuses for weapons with smaller capacities like the Swarm Launcher, for instance). Rest assured, we'll be addressing these secondary skills as soon as we can. It's not ideal and I apologize for that, but we are fixing it. Bumping for exposure. Will this be coming in 1.2? will this be coming in 1.4 or 1.5 !?
Lillica Deathdealer Mango and Friends 129	Posted - 2013.08.18 23:51:00 - [74] - Quote The man makes sense! With any luck we will get much more weapon specific skill trees as the dev commented. Personally I'd like to see more weapon specific skills as well, like how only the smg and AR have the sharpshooter skill. Why not make a skill for laser/scrambler rifles that plays with their unique functions as well?
Justicar Karnellia Ikomari-Onu Enforcement Caldari State 63	Posted - 2013.08.19 11:49:00 - [75] - Quote Great thread, and good to see a dev response ackcnowledging the issues. I wonder if some of the skill levels will be re-balanced. I always find it strange that your submachine gun proficiency levels cost as much as your assault rifle proficiency levels (for example). Personally I think it should cost less to level up a weapon that is a sidearm than a main weapon, even if they have the same corresponding meta-levels.
zibathy numbertwo Nox Aeterna Security 10	Posted - 2013.08.19 12:30:00 - [76] - Quote I-Shayz-I wrote: Thank you for addressing this issue with more detail. I currently have level 3 fitting optimization for my SR since it really does help reduce the PG cost. However, the one point you keep bringing up is that these skills cost tons for very little gains. The main problem I have with these skills is not having a reason to go past level 3 with them. To get to level 4 and 5 costs a huge amount more than it does to get just those first 3 levels. At that point, it's a better investment to spend points into skills like engineering to get more pg than I would from the optimization skill. Even so, I've come to the understanding that late game these are the skills that determine the slight advantage you get from having a huge amount of sp. You could either specialize further and spend 10 million getting half a second off your reload, some more pg to fit better items, and a slightly larger ammo supply, or you could specialize into a completely different role. To sum up my thoughts: These skills should be changed to become more weapon specific, but they should still act as late game skills that don't give you too much of an advantage over other players. This, a MILLION TIMES this. The skills 100% need to be personalized for each weapon when appropriate, but there need not be such a massive difference between a day 1 player and a day 1,000 player that he has a never ending 600 round AR clip that does +50% damage that lets him pubstomp people into the next dimension. The gains should absolutely be small, but the decimal benefits and impartial benefits absolutely need to be fixed. The fact that I can put 2 million SP into a skill that reduces 25% PG when the weapon I have takes 3 PG and get no results is ridiculous in my opinion. I think there should be a flat 1 PG removed at level 5 minimum. I'd like to be able to get that extra little bit just to get me that inch ahead of my enemies. I shouldn't have to use proto to benefit from a support skill. I shouldn't have to use advanced to benefit from a skill that doesn't even directly affect combat. I can use a militia AR and get extra ammo, extra damage, faster reload times, but I can't bring down its PG by even one point with max skills? Honestly, I'm going out on a limb by saying there should be fitting benefits/rebalances for lower tier standard level equipment but I feel that it ever so slightly nudges people into using more expensive gear - which isn't good. A new player absolutely DOES NOT want to be in a game with everyone in proto gear. I'd rather have people running around with Exiles that cost 0 cpu and 0 pg than people running around with Duvolle's because the benefits from their skills make them idiots for not doing so OR, even worse, having useless skills that no one uses. I'm not investing 2m sp into something that will never benefit me. I play with almost exclusively standard level weapons when not doing PC, and I think others should get benefits that make that concept more viable. I'm not sure if I'm ranting or if anyone understands what I'm saying, but I think that's my two cents. Feel free to disagree, I know a lot of people don't roll how I do. tl;dr 1. Decimals should not exist in any of these benefits except for reload times. It doesn't make sense and nobody can make use of half of an AR round or half of a PG removed when it always rounds down. 2. There needs to be a benefit for upgrading the skill to 5 even if you're running militia like a dingus. If level 5 gives .5 PG off, it needs to round up and take off 1 full PG minimum no matter what weapon it is.
Zeylon Rho Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 1911	Posted - 2013.08.19 13:36:00 - [77] - Quote They could alter all the skills to give fixed amounts really; it's a perk of having a separate skill for every weapon. If they decided "30 rounds" was a good chunk for AR for instance, then the skill description could just be "Adds 30 rounds to max ammo per level". With a weapon-specific skill there's no reason not to, other than time constraints, and I'd assume balancing is worth at least a little time. Is [blank] enough ammo? Is [blank] enough of a difference in reload time? I think ammo changes are a little less balance-sensitive, as the game already provides multiple means of restoring your ammo. Reload is a bit iffy - it obviously can be a factor in a fire fight, but it's unlikely to be a major one often otherwise. Fitting probably has the largest global effect, as it impacts what you can actually bring with you. At the same time, it's a very late-skill, as I previously noted... you have to be at proficiency 4 to even start to skill into it and it has a very high multiplier. It's effectively a multi-million SP buy-in for a skill that applies only when you're using a given weapon type. I still maintain that a fixed +1 PG per level would be a good approach there, as it gives a very good benefit even when using STD equipment. I still like the idea of excess PG over what you need getting fed back into your suit totals, making it a desirable skill to "max" to ease up your fitting (e.g. - Rank 5 fitting with a STD Scrambler Pistol gets +3 PG to deal with in your fitting... at the cost of getting a very very expensive skill to rank 5 of course).


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