I can't stay mad at you.

you weren't drunk w/e enough in the video and not enough cursing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYzQGwMnzEM&feature=youtu.be

Sorry in advance for the language. I've been doing NyQuil shots with beer chasers for the past two days. I was kinda out of my mind.

In this video I discuss why AWOXing is not effective for the long haul and is a technique with an overall negative outcome. And sorry to Jenza...

Any input from you guys?

It's this kind of metagaming that FPS games lack. When someone sneaks into a clan and spies or wreaks havoc, they tend to be promptly booted, shamed, called all sorts of names, and potentially disqualified from whatever event they were involved in. Basically, it's a big no-no. In EVE, you get the opposite reaction. It's a fact of life and tends to provide capsuleers with entertainment. Whatever the carebears in space might claim, such behavior is not only expected, it's sanctioned by CCP.

I find it amusing that you are behaving exactly like the FPSers I describe in my news article.

http://themittani.com/news/dust-514-eve-culture-shock-and-grief-university



You are experiencing culture shock. Welcome to New Eden.

I wasn't drunk as much as I was just super groggy from the NyQuil. At least I think that's how I was. I don't know. I had about half a bottle of NyQuil and a 12-pack.

People do this for enjoyment/fun?

People do this for enjoyment/fun?

I don't buy this 'culture shock' argument. CCP failed to foresee an obvious exploit in the corporate battle game mechanics.

There's no parallel in the EVE universe for the result that I know of. The spying and manipulation that is part of EVE is intriguing and exciting to read about. It's what made me try EVE in the first place. I strongly doubt anyone reading about this broken game mechanic is going to enticed into playing Dust514.

If the tables were reversed somehow and EVE players were experiencing a new game mechanic where any member of their corporation no matter how lowly could lock down or vanish 1/4 of their fleet at any critical engagement without any effort required I reckon the players of EVE would have some culture shock of their own.

So AWOXing makes you look weak?

I'm a little confused, by that since its not on the AWOXer or the corp who initiated the AWOX at all who ends up looking weak. There are corps who have better regulations and prerequisites to join their ranks than those who have been AWOXed. The act of AWOXing is exploiting someone else's inability to adequately protect their assets and organization, which is actual weakness.

You might be trying to imply that if you AWOX or your group supports AWOXing, you're "weak" (as the kids say) and aren't good at the game at all, but then again as many people have pointed out this is being played out in the metagame and caring about your KDR or leaderboard status matter not in that respect. The metagame is all about playing the people, not the game, into doing what you want and acting in a way you want them to start acting like. In this case its making people point fingers and try to disgrace others. In other cases there is the metagame goal of making people thing you're bring X items to the field of battle, and ultimately when you both engage they realize they're poorly underprepared as you brough Y items. You can also say that manipulating the market is part of the metagame and is a completely different.

You're just expressing an immense ignorance to the matter and putting up in the guise of "well if you AWOX you're just bad at the game." when, in actuality, CCP has a long history of making games where having a metagame is far more important than winning a handful of battles. Look at the HBC, it got taken down due to political turmoil caused by ProGodLegend (of N3 & Nulli Secunda) insulting Sort Dragons girlfriend. That act caused Sort to go on a fit and threaten TEST, who then promptly left the HBC and took the largest alliance in that Coalition with them, making the Sort Dragon/HBC vs PGL/N3 war be over with without a single shot fired. That's the sort of game CCP makes, if you're not capable of comprehending, or willing to partake in it, you may want to play a different game since this sort of thing will continue to grow and more than just simple AWOXing will take place.

I don't buy this 'culture shock' argument. CCP failed to foresee an obvious exploit in the corporate battle game mechanics.

There's no parallel in the EVE universe for the result that I know of. The spying and manipulation that is part of EVE is intriguing and exciting to read about. It's what made me try EVE in the first place. I strongly doubt anyone reading about this broken game mechanic is going to enticed into playing Dust514.

If the tables were reversed somehow and EVE players were experiencing a new game mechanic where any member of their corporation no matter how lowly could lock down or vanish 1/4 of their fleet at any critical engagement without any effort required I reckon the players of EVE would have some culture shock of their own.

So AWOXing makes you look weak?

I'm a little confused, by that since its not on the AWOXer or the corp who initiated the AWOX at all who ends up looking weak. There are corps who have better regulations and prerequisites to join their ranks than those who have been AWOXed. The act of AWOXing is exploiting someone else's inability to adequately protect their assets and organization, which is actual weakness.

You might be trying to imply that if you AWOX or your group supports AWOXing, you're "weak" (as the kids say) and aren't good at the game at all, but then again as many people have pointed out this is being played out in the metagame and caring about your KDR or leaderboard status matter not in that respect. The metagame is all about playing the people, not the game, into doing what you want and acting in a way you want them to start acting like. In this case its making people point fingers and try to disgrace others. In other cases there is the metagame goal of making people thing you're bring X items to the field of battle, and ultimately when you both engage they realize they're poorly underprepared as you brough Y items. You can also say that manipulating the market is part of the metagame and is a completely different.

You're just expressing an immense ignorance to the matter and putting up in the guise of "well if you AWOX you're just bad at the game." when, in actuality, CCP has a long history of making games where having a metagame is far more important than winning a handful of battles. Look at the HBC, it got taken down due to political turmoil caused by ProGodLegend (of N3 & Nulli Secunda) insulting Sort Dragons girlfriend. That act caused Sort to go on a fit and threaten TEST, who then promptly left the HBC and took the largest alliance in that Coalition with them, making the Sort Dragon/HBC vs PGL/N3 war be over with without a single shot fired. That's the sort of game CCP makes, if you're not capable of comprehending, or willing to partake in it, you may want to play a different game since this sort of thing will continue to grow and more than just simple AWOXing will take place.

I think you totally missed the point I was making. Although I disagree with AWOXing, I know it's a mechanic in the game. Not a big deal. My point was that there are better ways to utilize infiltration than doing a one-time tactic that makes your corp look bad.

And alienating "FPSers" probably isn't a smart way to go. Sure, the diehard EVE guys will like you, but Dust isn't EVE. Dust is a console FPS, so a majority of the players are going to be, wait for it, FPSers. Regardless of how you feel, for a console FPS to do well and compete with other AAA titles, they have to appeal to FPSers. CCP knows this. They want the game to grow, and the best way to have Dust grow is by appealing to regular FPSers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYzQGwMnzEM&feature=youtu.be

Sorry in advance for the language. I've been doing NyQuil shots with beer chasers for the past two days. I was kinda out of my mind.

In this video I discuss why AWOXing is not effective for the long haul and is a technique with an overall negative outcome. And sorry to Jenza...

Any input from you guys?

Good Lord.

AWOXing does make your corp look weak. You're doing it to gain a severe advantage that can't be countered. That's what makes you look weak. Forget all the meta game BS for one second. Showing the necessity to have an unfair advantage makes it look like you can't win a fight straight up.

I didn't know you were mad at me.

Good Lord.

AWOXing does make your corp look weak. You're doing it to gain a severe advantage that can't be countered. That's what makes you look weak. Forget all the meta game BS for one second. Showing the necessity to have an unfair advantage makes it look like you can't win a fight straight up.

....

...relying ONLY on shrewed tactics, and specially on a FPS it shows that you have no faith in your performance therefore you need said adventage as a "crutch", and that makes you look weak, besides being despised.

Real life wars can be waged (and even won) solely using these kinds of tactics. Lets take the Taliban as an example:
In 2001 they control the country of Afghanistan. The US military invades, and they go into hiding. They understand that facing the American military head on is suicidal, so instead they infiltrate the new US backed Afghan government and military.

Some kid wants to join the Taliban? He enlists in the Afghan National Army where American troops not only train him how to fight, but pay him for it. When his training is complete he has three options:
A) Go AWOL and join the Taliban fighters off in the mountains
B) Find some Americans with their backs turned and shoot (knowing he will probably be caught/killed himself)
C) Wait for the US military to finally leave the country so he can help overthrow the US backed government from the inside.

The Taliban has lasted more than a decade against the most powerful military in the world, and that military is currently withdrawing from Afghanistan. If they can overthrow the current government, they'll have won the war despite never winning a conventional battle. I would hardly call that "weak."

You had been already branded as a fanboy in the past, therefore ALL your arguments are invalid.

You guys do understand that "Metagame" is what sets DUST 514 apart from other FPSes, right? The idea that a single game has consequences between YOU WON or YOU LOST, and that there is more to the game than shooting mans, driving jeeps, and blowing stuff up. The concept of the "Metagame" is the only thing that really keeps Dust 514 from turning into Battlefield 2142 2, what keeps it interesting. If you don't like this idea that there is more to the game than the ability to shoot mans, maybe you should play something else, something simpler like Battlefield or Call of Duty. Then again, if you're bothered by things other people can do, maybe you're better off with playing Bejeweled.

Personally, I eagerly look forward to when this game expands it's scope of PC beyond Molden Heath, so PC can happen in places where things actually matter, ie, nullsec, and there will be much more competition and spying and other fun stuff.

Sure they can, however thad doesnt stop the backlashes and stigma they have all around the world, and from a military standpoint.. it is "weak", the reason of why the taliban are still where they are its more about the motivations behind the conflict, (US doing an occupation on a country with a shitton of oil, moved by greed) if the situation was different like "all the middle east country just declared war on the US and european countries" AKA a fully fledged war... I doubt of them standing an ioda of chance.

I'm all for spies and messing with the enemy. I like that there is more to the game than actual gameplay. It adds a different level of immersion. I don't mind AWOXing either. It's at the same level as AFKing for me. At the end of the day, it's just a game. People will do what they want. That's totally fine with me. But just because "it's all about the meta game", it doesn't mean it's not something that should be tweaked moving forward.

You're missing the point. They figured out how to win a war without actively fighting a war. They may have a stigma attached to them, but at the end of the day, a win is a win. The Taliban's motivation was seeing US troops in their country, so they set the goal to get the Americans the hell out; they have very nearly accomplished this. They never set the goal of a full fledged war against the US/Europe, because they are smart enough to realize it's beyond their means. They have no reason to leave their homes and waste a bunch of money to fight in another country.

As for the US motivations, Afghanistan doesn't really have oil. The Taliban were harboring Bin Laden after 9/11. You're thinking of Iraq, who "honorably" tried to fight the US Military head on and got stomped. They adopted the guerrilla tactics after the fact, since they saw it was working for the Taliban.

So AWOXing makes you look weak?

I'm a little confused, by that since its not on the AWOXer or the corp who initiated the AWOX at all who ends up looking weak. There are corps who have better regulations and prerequisites to join their ranks than those who have been AWOXed. The act of AWOXing is exploiting someone else's inability to adequately protect their assets and organization, which is actual weakness.

You might be trying to imply that if you AWOX or your group supports AWOXing, you're "weak" (as the kids say) and aren't good at the game at all, but then again as many people have pointed out this is being played out in the metagame and caring about your KDR or leaderboard status matter not in that respect. The metagame is all about playing the people, not the game, into doing what you want and acting in a way you want them to start acting like. In this case its making people point fingers and try to disgrace others. In other cases there is the metagame goal of making people thing you're bring X items to the field of battle, and ultimately when you both engage they realize they're poorly underprepared as you brough Y items. You can also say that manipulating the market is part of the metagame and is a completely different.

You're just expressing an immense ignorance to the matter and putting up in the guise of "well if you AWOX you're just bad at the game." when, in actuality, CCP has a long history of making games where having a metagame is far more important than winning a handful of battles. Look at the HBC, it got taken down due to political turmoil caused by ProGodLegend (of N3 & Nulli Secunda) insulting Sort Dragons girlfriend. That act caused Sort to go on a fit and threaten TEST, who then promptly left the HBC and took the largest alliance in that Coalition with them, making the Sort Dragon/HBC vs PGL/N3 war be over with without a single shot fired. That's the sort of game CCP makes, if you're not capable of comprehending, or willing to partake in it, you may want to play a different game since this sort of thing will continue to grow and more than just simple AWOXing will take place.

My bad on Iraq, however that doesnt translate as well into Dust or any fps, why? because one of the pillars of any fps to date it that is a "seek and destroy" game, unlike the taliban vs US conflict, where they are civilians war treaties, litigation against war crimes... etc. Do you go on dust and say "Oh I wont fire that clone, he might have kids" or do you see any civilian running around... or do you get a court marshall by firing some plasma rounds at someone? Of course not! You "seek and destroy" targets, no remorse no questions asked (in the case of awoxers that includes them as targets)

I understand that the taliban are able to grind the US balls with few militar effort and evict them, but at the same time they are able to use tools that are non existant in the context of a fps: civilians, war treaties, UN regulations, all that jazz. When on a FPS you just shoot the enemy on the face and thats the end of it Therefore if your corp its not able to accomplish to "seek and destroy" on a FPS, and have to rely on underhanded metods (even with said methods STILL lose), you will be looked down as weak.

Would on a future a corp can beat another one without firing a round, possibly. But it will be defined by ACTUAL metagame, not cheap acessible expliots.

@Laiheon: Yes I just ruled any argument you made with and ad homenem, get used to it. Im not willing to even waste time on you.

You are so astoundingly short sighted and narrow minded it boggles the mind.

The entire point of DUST 514 is that there is more to it than "shoot mans in space".

I understand some things can be difficult to handle or process. I had a lot of trouble learning how to integrate by parts, but I got past that and moved on. I didn't stay on the forums being a sad sack of tears whining about how everything isn't exactly the way I want it.

So please, sit down for a moment. Put down the controller, put down the mountain dew. Think about a game that is bigger, not just bigger, but wider, much wider, than just shooting mans. Because that is what is DUST 514 is to be.

If you can't handle that concept, you're welcome to go back and play Call of Duty or Battlefield to your hearts content.

You won't be missed.

There are plenty of other dumb pubbies with dumb opinions that can be milked for hilarity.

I wasn't drunk as much as I was just super groggy from the NyQuil. At least I think that's how I was. I don't know. I had about half a bottle of NyQuil and a 12-pack.

I find it amusing that you are behaving exactly like the FPSers I describe in my news article.

http://themittani.com/news/dust-514-eve-culture-shock-and-grief-university



You are experiencing culture shock. Welcome to New Eden.

" Its about as trendy as Jenza's pants in fanfest" LOL

Maybe Eve culture is crap, did you ever think about that? The idea that emotionally manipulating people is fun and good entertainment is disgusting. There are tons of games with deep metagames that don't involve this type of behavior.

The most disturbing aspect of this game though involves the playerbase's attitude towards spying. Any person who's spent an exorbitant amount of time gaining people's trust and befriending them so they can betray them in an online game (for digital gains) needs to examine themselves. Anyone who condones this behavior should do the same. Quite frankly, these people should get a life; not to mention, such anti-social behavior borders on sociopathy.

Maybe you eve players who condone this behavior are unaware of this, but it's this type of behavior and and attitude that have branded eve players as being the scum of the gaming world. It's because of this that other gamers look down on you (well, that and the fact that you spend so much time playing a ridiculously boring game).

Maybe Eve culture is crap, did you ever think about that? The idea that emotionally manipulating people is fun and good entertainment is disgusting. There are tons of games with deep metagames that don't involve this type of behavior.

The most disturbing aspect of this game though involves the playerbase's attitude towards spying. Any person who's spent an exorbitant amount of time gaining people's trust and befriending them so they can betray them in an online game (for digital gains) needs to examine themselves. Anyone who condones this behavior should do the same. Quite frankly, these people should get a life; not to mention, such anti-social behavior borders on sociopathy.

Maybe you eve players who condone this behavior are unaware of this, but it's this type of behavior and and attitude that have branded eve players as being the scum of the gaming world. It's because of this that other gamers look down on you (well, that and the fact that you spend so much time playing a ridiculously boring game).

You can also refer to:

- Mujahideen in the 1970s (precursor to the Taliban) vs the Soviet Union.
- North Vietnamese vs the US forces.
- Colonial Army vs the British Empire.

The list goes on and the message stays the same, attacking head on isn't the only way to win a war.

Those were all the weaker factions in the war. So what was your point again?

EDIT: As a side note, the clans using "AWOXing" are horrible shots and seriously lack battlefield presence. Most of them rely on proto gear and SP to make up for this fact and will fall off rather quickly in the grand scheme of things.

And why do goons even think they are relevant in DUST?

Those were all the weaker factions in the war. So what was your point again?

Abu, I'm grudgingly giving you a +1 for that post.

They all won?

Except one of the most notable examples of AWOX in DUST was a complete failure.

Let me make a timeline for your simple mind to understand.

1. OP said you are weak if you need to AWOX.
2. A bunch of people were mentioned, proving the OPs point.
3. Abu Stij wrote a long winded post that I didn't care to really read because in fighting against the OP he supported the OPs claim.

Any questions?

Is it because I'm pretty?

AWOXing isn't a culture shock it's a wasted opportunity, Done by kids who run to forums within ten minutes of turning a corp over screaming about how megaleetz they are. People thinking too small.

AWOXing isn't a culture shock it's a wasted opportunity, Done by kids who run to forums within ten minutes of turning a corp over screaming about how megaleetz they are. People thinking too small.

You're saying that BETAmax not knowing how to successfully AWOX means AWOXing in general is a failure. That seems to counter what Grief U has been able to accomplish successfully.

How did you come to the conclusion I was supporting the OP's claim when you didn't really read what I wrote?

That seem's quite illogical. And nothing I said supported the OP's claim outside of "if you only look at it in military strength sure, but they found your weakness and used it to their advantage. They came out on top in the end, you didn't." which was only mentioned after the fact and is still true.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYzQGwMnzEM&feature=youtu.be

If you think this video is about meta vs anti-meta, you should watch it again. I'm not against the metagame, so don't assume that just because I think AWOXing is overrated, I want the game to be Call of Duty. Jesus Christ.

Sorry in advance for the language. I've been doing NyQuil shots with beer chasers for the past two days. I was kinda out of my mind.

In this video I discuss why AWOXing is not effective for the long haul and is a technique with an overall negative outcome. And sorry to Jenza...

Any input from you guys?

If you want to AWOX do it right. Actually infiltrate a group and steal intel, gain directorship and clean them out. Kick everyone from corp before a PC match. Clean the corp account. Steal clone reserves and plant them on your side. Just joining a PC match and talking smack and team killing is petty HALO bs. I attribute it to getting a full Warthog and driving it off a cliff. There is no emergent gameplay here. There is no amazing tactics involved. Just petty silliness.

AWOXing in general is failure. It is a failure on CCPs part for leaving such a gaping hole in the development of such an important aspect of the game. It is a failure in the fact that it is a one-off disposable asset that may or may not even work. And it is a failure because people like you think it is some super James Bond type ****. HEY GAIS I HAZ TOONZ IN DAY CORP FOR SPAM PC, LOLZ. The whole mechanic is just silly, and the fixes people are posting for it are even more so.

If you want to AWOX do it right. Actually infiltrate a group and steal intel, gain directorship and clean them out. Kick everyone from corp before a PC match. Clean the corp account. Steal clone reserves and plant them on your side. Just joining a PC match and talking smack and team killing is petty HALO bs. I attribute it to getting a full Warthog and driving it off a cliff. There is no emergent gameplay here. There is no amazing tactics involved. Just petty silliness.

You're assuming that there aren't people doing that *right now* but just aren't advertising that fact.

Will you run against Iron Wolf Saber in the next council election?

You're assuming that there aren't people doing that *right now* but just aren't advertising that fact.

I know there are people doing just that, and I am not against it. I'll even support it. But what these other people are doing in PC matches right now, it's not even in the same vein. And the way they are celebrating it like it is some huge accomplishment just irks me. Oh I got onto a team and then shot them all, I'm so talented.... Give me a break.

How narrow-minded and immature.

The problem with your argument is that DUST isn't meant to be a simple FPS. The best way it could be categorised is "war simulator" rather than "FPS". FPS implies that's all there is to do, shoot people. In DUST, however, you are able to choose your enemies. The only other game I've heard of being called a war simulator was actually Battlefield and ARMA, and that doesn't particularly have as many features (war wise) as DUST does.

In DUST, we are able to avert war (or conclude it) through means other than shooting other mercs. For example, making peace, creating an alliance or a contract, dissolving the other corporation/alliance through subterfuge, etc. This is much more involved than any other FPS that you might be able to name, and involves diplomacy and subterfuge just as much as gun game.

It does not bother me so much as how it is all wrapped up with the Council. There are serious problems with DUST and the council is dicking around with this crap.

DS 10 nailed it when he said this is an FPS and the focus should be on getting that FPS right. Yes there will be meta nothing wrong with meta but when our community reps focus on a broken game mechanic and try desperately to turn into some sort of super spy feature when they should be taking notes about actual broken FPS game mechanics then it just gets stupid.

Also i think Dust needs more sand box features in it for real meta. AWOX is pretty weak sauce when CCP could actually make district infiltration and sabotage game play....which would you rather have...BetaMax clicking invites into a PC match or an FPS PvP stealth game?

Hell i would rather have a virtual pub in local where people can play spy.

Real good emergent meta can only really be good when we have a a real sand box with a crap ton of features. (go play PvP on a clan/seige based minecraft server and you will see real emergent Meta in a sandbox)..AWOX just feels like so much kludge and clicking on boxes.

Note: for those thinking of laughing at Meta in minecraft PvP. On one server i was offered a cyber skype from a women (ie boobs) to give up my clan's base location. AWOX and EvE Meta seem weak in comparison to me.

@Aegis...

You will also find that The Mittani lost a lot of respect within the EVE community because of that incident, and had to step down from the CSM. Generalising a whole community like that is simply ridiculous, it's like saying all Americans are fat, all Chinese are good at maths, and all the English are hooligans. In any community, you'll get a range of people. Stereotyping for any other purpose than humor simply isn't acceptable.

Frankly, no, it's not emotional manipulation. It's nothing personal either. An alliance wants to conquer the land that you currently own, but you're too strong for them. So the alliance sends in a spy to dissolve the alliance, and after a few months, manages. That's not on a personal level whatsoever. He's doing a job for material gain, not to hurt someone.

As often stated in online games, it's not really material wealth. In the end, it's just a few kilobytes of data on a server somewhere. You effectively haven't lost anything but time, time which you were very happy to invest in the game. Any emotions that may have been hurt on the way simply aren't intentional, and if the person had actually been sensible, they would know not to trust someone on an online game who has the ability to ruin their whole experience.

So... They should focus on fixing the FPS by taking a massive amount of dev time away and devoting it to non-fps enviroments and game types, and you can't figure out how to install skype and back room deal with the big boys so CCP has to make a scale mockup of the Mos Eisley Cantina for you since your sense of imagination and originality has been atrophied beyond recognition? I think the problem isn't the game, but that you're not actually playing it.