Logis are designed to be versatile, i.e. they should be able to do whatever they want with the suit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaO2P41Op78&list=SPFC7B99173F4DC31F

Would you like it if I forced a CRU on your ship?

You mean like they do in the logistics...
Or how, as stated, every ds is required to have two turrets. Three for Ads.

I was just asking how itd work. I have no idea I just heard it and it made some sense to me since as a pilot I already deal with that.

And I know ots mot all logis. I was generalizing about the problem. Most people this build have two major issues. Some assault rifles and some assault logi fittings.

Pretty sure both need fixed before "release"

My that logis now can be?

this actually makes sense if at least 2 of the 3 or 4 equipment slots are required to be filled.

then the Logi can do what it wants and not run a Weapon and use ALL 3/4 Equipment slots in the proto

Why would anyone be against this? It makes perfect sense. If you do not like that idea all that tells me is you are not using the equipment slots right now, in which case you aren't really a logistics and you should be trying to get CCP to buff up the assault suit instead of worrying that they might do something to the logistics.

Why can't this apply to Logi's dropsuits and might it prevent the Super-Assault troops that logis now can be?

Minmatar logistics can still be a good hacker with something in every equipment slot, as your utility example. I selected logistics as my starter build in chromosome and have been using one to this day, I understand the logistics class. Support and utility wouldn't be affected by making equipment slots mandatory. The only thing you listed that would be effected is slaying, and I have no clue why you got that as a role for logistics. I mean, if logistics should be able to specialize in slaying then why do we even have the assault class? Let's just delete assault all together then.

I'm a little surprised they didn't go for the low hanging fruit solution too. Although I thought it would have been a yellow box BPO for the militia needle and militia rep tool in the first two equipment slots of all logis. They're "free" but also taking up some of that extra cpu/grid the suit was given in the first place for equipment..

I think this is a good idea most logi's use full equipment anyway and when you ask people why logi's besides the Cal are OP all they can come up with is how much stuff we can fit if we dont bother fitting equipment. So to be honest I would much rather be forced to carry full equipment and act as support as I do that anyway rather than have some of these other nerfs being thrown about. If I wanted to have a few matches of killing only I could use my basic suit.

In short I support this because forcing logi's to be more supporty is better than getting nerfed to oblivion.

Man, you guys really must want your other suits to keep their ****ty bonuses huh?

What race logistics do you run? If this happens, my Minmatar hacker build is going to be toast because I can't carry equipment with the catalyzers and codebreakers. It hurts the class' versatility. And again, why are we talking about the whole suit class being the problem. Can someone tell me how the Amarr, Minmatar, and Gallente logi somehow OP? Especially the Gallente, I want to hear that one first.

Stop and read before you start assuming what I am saying. You act like versatility is something that is exclusive to the logistics class like some defining feature. In truth, versatility is apart of every class. I'm not trying to limit the logistics options because I hate versatility, I'm trying to limit them because right now they can do a better job at assault than assault players. And that is all logistics, not just Caldari. And why is this? Because they get more high/low slots and more CPU/PG than assault and only have to sacrifice a sidearm which is barely used to begin with.

I am a supporter of versatility, but not so much that each class starts to bleed into one another. Logistics being forced to use all their equipment slots wouldn't make them a medic. Last I checked, the nanite injector and repair tool aren't the only pieces of equipment in the game. You have remote explosives, active scanners, uplinks, nanohives, and several more to come in the future such as cloaking. There are still plenty of versatile roles a logistics would be able to specialize into besides medic. But if you don't want to use equipment so you could save CPU/PG to be more of a slayer that hacks faster or something like that, then that to me sounds like a level of versatility that should be available for the assault class and not the logistics.

This goes back to my point. You want to run an medium suit that doesn't carry full equipment but can hack fast and run. This sounds like a level of versatility for the Assault suit, not the Logistics suit. You should be petitioning CCP to buff the Assault Suit instead of trying to stop others from making the logistics suit more like a logistics suit. Oh, and I explained why it's not just the Caldari.

Since I get the feeling that most people write and read in General Discussion exclusively, I am copying and pasting this from Feedback/Requests.

It's the racial bonuses. They seem completely and utterly arbitrary, and the game's overall balance suffers for it. We all know the most glaring and over-discussed racial bonus, the Caldari logi shield extender buff, but what about the heavy's "weapon feedback damage reduction?" What about the shield recharge rate increase to all the assault suits, even though it mostly benefits Amarr and Caldari? If any of these bonuses have any real reason behind them, may a Dev feel free to come in and tell me about it, but otherwise, I suggest a complete re-work of racial bonuses, and class bonuses.

Assault
Assault Dropsuit Bonus- 2% hand-held weaponry damage increase per level
Caldari Assault Bonus- 3% shield extender increase per level
Gallente Assault Bonus- 5% armor repair module rate increase per level
Minmatar Assault Bonus- 5% hand-held weaponry clip increase per level
Amarr Assault Bonus- 5% reduction to energy weapon heat build-up per level

Logistics
Logistics Dropsuit Bonus- Keep +1 armor repair per level
Caldari Logistics Bonus- 10% nanohive nanite capacity bonus per level
Gallente Logistics Bonus- 5% equipment PG/CPU reduction per level
Minmatar Logistics Bonus- Keep 5% hacking speed bonus per level
Amarr Logistics Bonus- 5% repair tool rate increase per level

Heavy
Heavy Dropsuit Bonus- 2% hand-held weaponry damage received reduction per level
Amarr Heavy Bonus- 2% dropsuit shield and armor increase per level

Scout
Scout Dropsuit Bonus- Keep 5% scan profile reduction per level
Gallente Scout Bonus- 10% dropsuit and active scanner scan radius increase per level
Minmatar Scout Bonus- Keep 5% melee and nova knife damage increase per level

You can see, excluding scouts, the bonuses have been changed to fit the role of the suit. The assault dropsuit's role has been strengthened for long life and general combat, the logistics dropsuit's role has been strengthened to triage and miscellaneous activities, and the heavy dropsuit's role has been strengthened to survivability beyond the assault dropsuit. Scouts still retain their recon and intelligence roles, and they are all spec'd to do what they are meant to do. Most importantly, there were no dropsuit base stat nerfs, which seems to be most people's ideas to fix imbalances.

Feel free to make your own amendments, and comment.

EDITS: Assault Dropsuit Bonus changed from 3% to 2% per level, Heavy Dropsuit Bonus changed from 3% to 2% to match.
Amarr Logistics given back 5% armor repair module rate bonus, was previously +5% repair tool rate per level, Amarr Assault given back energy weapon heat build-up reduction per level, was previously +5% armor repair module rate per level.
Minmatar Assault Bonus changed from +5% sidearm clip size to +5% any hand-held weapon clip size per level.
Even more changes: Gallente Assault given +5% armor repair module rate, Amarr Assault given +3% armor plate health bonus per level, Amarr Logi given back original +5% repair tool rate per level.
Amarr Assault Bonus changed again, now to 5% reduction to energy weapon heat build up per level.
Gallente Scout Bonus affects dropsuit AND active scanner radius now.

You're also missing the big picture. Now keep in mind this is all speculation, but think about why the logistics was the only suit class that didn't get a basic suit and was such an SP sink. Also look at the Gallente scout and its racial bonuses. I think CCP is laying some ground work for EWAR active modules. Scouts are probably going to get ECM and logistics are going to get shoehorned into a tackling role. On top of that, I believe that these modules are going to be high and low slot modules and not equipment. That's why we have so many slots and that would explain the high CPU/PG and the SP sink. They want this stuff to be be more specific to logistics while limiting how many modules the other classes can use at one time because they'll probably have higher equipment costs. Would you really want every class with the ability to run around with scramblers, nosferatu, and webafiers all on one suit?

And why should my speedy hacking role go to an assault? Assaults are supposed to be the slayers. I thought we were arguing about logis being better slayers than assaults right now.

What race logistics do you run? If this happens, my Minmatar hacker build is going to be toast because I can't carry equipment with the catalyzers and codebreakers. It hurts the class' versatility. And again, why are we talking about the whole suit class being the problem. Can someone tell me how the Amarr, Minmatar, and Gallente logi somehow OP? Especially the Gallente, I want to hear that one first.

I run Gal logi I have had many people tell me all logi's are OP but I too am still waiting on what makes the 3 besides the Cal op.
I would still prefer Logi Bro's ideas but I would take this if it was a choice between this and complete and total nerf.

Assaults are supposed to be slayers? Oh, I thought you were the one arguing for versatility. Saying assaults are supposed to be slayers is like saying logis are supposed to be medics. All I was saying is assaults should be able to be a better slayer than logis if that's what they wanted to do. Right now if an assault and a logi both decided they want to be slayers, the logi would be the better slayer. But the assault should still have versatility to do other roles as well besides slaying.

Lower the PG/CPU of all logi to below that of assault and then add bonuses to the logi that reduce the the PG/CPU of equipment only. This way would keep the logi viable as a logi but not much more.

All logi suits get more CPU/PG and high/low slots than their assault counterpart. Yes, all logis are the problem. They just happen to also get those equipment slots which don't need to be used up.[b] Any assault guy would see the logi as a better option for assault at this point.[/b[

What we're trying to do here is suggest methods of fixing this problem without tearing the logi suit apart. At the end of the day something is going to happen though.

If you want an offensive oriented fitting, you should have to specialize into assault. Last I checked, Assault and Logi are both 10x skills. So why should logi be able to have an equipment build and a offensive slayer build while assault suits can only get the offensive slayer build? Your argument fails miserably.

Lower the PG/CPU of all logi to below that of assault and then add bonuses to the logi that reduce the the PG/CPU of equipment only. This way would keep the logi viable as a logi but not much more.

My dropship forces me to use two turrets or else "INVALID FITTING".
Sucks more CPU/PG than I might like. I assume that's there for balance




The assault dropship forces Three turrets or else I can't make a single fitting.
Why can't this apply to Logi's dropsuits and might it prevent the Super-Assault troops that logis now can be?

@Nguruthos IX, hey bro looking forward to squading up again your ship is beast
Back on point, if the racial logi frames required a minimum of 1 non-nanohive equipment mod to be fit for for the fitting to be valid it would address what's going on by pulling more CPU/PG into Equip use which is outside of the 'slayer' role of the Assault. All the support Logi's (aka the Logi's not Assaulters in a Logi suit) that I know run full Equp slots anyway so this would promote the role focus proper to the suit without nerfing anyone.

Cheers,
Cross

My dropship forces me to use two turrets or else "INVALID FITTING".
Sucks more CPU/PG than I might like. I assume that's there for balance




The assault dropship forces Three turrets or else I can't make a single fitting.
Why can't this apply to Logi's dropsuits and might it prevent the Super-Assault troops that logis now can be?

Again.. the logistic suit has nothing to do with equipment, it's about creative freedom, the freedom to put 4-5 hacking mods on a suit, the freedom to put 4 nano-hives on a suit, the freedom to be the fastest sprinting suit(that might be the gallente scout now though).

All other suits have their role somewhat cut out for them, the logi gets to decide it's role, it's not just a medic, it never will be. Did no one actually watch the video? The logi can excel at many indivdual roles, but never at all of them at the same time.

The only role that should ever be forced on them is that they have to carry a gun so they can kill.


If your definition of logi is "pack mule" then sure, but that's not what logis actually are.

While I agree the assault does need a buff to encourage more slaying, the logistics still needs something to happen to encourage more use of equipment and I would like for that to happen with something more subtle like what we've been discussing opposed to taking stuff away.

And Assault needs something fitting wise to distinguish it from basic suits (as do Scout and Sentinel). Most common things I've heard is either give it a second grenade slot or 2 equipment slots.

I'd love to here what CCP thinks its for

Logistics = Versatility through wider fitting options than all the other classes.

There, you don't have to ask the developers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaO2P41Op78&list=SPFC7B99173F4DC31F
But they answered anyway, just cause it wasn't obvious enough.

The assault can carry two weapons...logi cannot.

The fact that most assault players cannot make that advantage sing is testament to who plays assault and who plays logi.

You are trying to nerf FPS player skill....not nerf OP...and the only result of nerfs that try to do that is the elimination of classes...and the migration of good players out of Dust.

A better solution is for all of you in the "nerf everything that beats me" crowd is for you to go back to EvE and stay away from FPSs.

You are bad players...you have huge SP advantages and you are still getting beat....get over it and move on.

The heavy is a 10X skill, all it can do is camp.

Why are logistics more customizable than assault suits? Because they traded their base stats for those extra slots. An assaults role is predetermined by it's it's base stats, a logistics suit isn't. We can take those extra slots and do what what we want with them, meanwhile you guys are stuck with a permanent high/low slot in the form of health. Heavy suits are stuck with permanent Shield extenders and armor plates. You want more freedom in your fits? Give up some stats.

Why can't a heavy run at 8m/s? Because it's a heavy.

I'm not trying to nerf everything that beats, I don't think you understand that what is being proposed here is a very subtle tweak.

Even with the lack of a sidearm, tell me why logistics can be better slayers than assault players? We want to fix this, but you say no because versatility. Well ok, but again last I checked Logistics and Assault are both 10x skills. So why can a logistics be an equipment guy and a slayer guy without needing to invest in a separate suit, while assault players can only be a slayer guy? Perhaps we should just raise the skill multiplier on logistics suits only or low all the other suits multiplier except logistics.

My dropship forces me to use two turrets or else "INVALID FITTING".
Sucks more CPU/PG than I might like. I assume that's there for balance




The assault dropship forces Three turrets or else I can't make a single fitting.
Why can't this apply to Logi's dropsuits and might it prevent the Super-Assault troops that logis now can be?

Terrible argument. A logi loses what? 60 hit points of base stats compared to the assault? Ok, well that can be fixed up with one mod slot. Oh and guess what? They get extra mod slots and CPU/PG, so it's not even taking away from other options. So slap a complex shield extender on one of those and you still have more CPU/PG, the same or more open slots, and all these equipment slots. If you really think that is balanced out by a sidearm then I can't really argue with you.

and most likely those are the starter fits since they haven't figured how to favorite something yet.

+1 this is certainly out of the box thinking here.

How to improve infantry:

Stop running directly at me without cover and giving me perfect head shots to take. Of course i am going to beat you.

Nine tenths of you are bad players. No amount of nerfs to logi will fix that problem.

Will you people stop generalizing?! It's not all the logis, it's the caldari logi. Are you really that afraid of my Minmatar's +5% hacking speed bonus?

"Whoooohooooo I'm gonna hack Uz?!"

...jesus...

Again.. the logistic suit has nothing to do with equipment, it's about creative freedom, the freedom to put 4-5 hacking mods on a suit, the freedom to put 4 nano-hives on a suit, the freedom to be the fastest sprinting suit(that might be the gallente scout now though).

All other suits have their role somewhat cut out for them, the logi gets to decide it's role, it's not just a medic, it never will be. Did no one actually watch the video? The logi can excel at many indivdual roles, but never at all of them at the same time.

The only role that should ever be forced on them is that they have to carry a gun so they can kill.


If your definition of logi is "pack mule" then sure, but that's not what logis actually are.

It's funny how people can easily overlook giving up the use of a sidearm slot...

Pretty sure they are supposed to be the support class, which is done with equipment. Yes they said they are supposed to be the most versatile in terms of options, but that doesn't mean they aren't supposed to be the support. I think them saying they are the most versatile doesn't mean that support wasn't the intended role on the battlefield.

It's actually quite simple, ARs are OP.

Why do you need a side weapon to overcome your main weapon's weakness, if your main weapon has no weakness? oh sure, you could switch to the SMG and kill heavies a little faster after you take out their shields, but is it really necessary?

[

ARs are not OP. They are terrible in CQC compared to SMGs

shotguns

and HMGs

Not true, in CQC an AR beats a shield tanked opponent while the SMG beats an armor tanked one.

It's actually quite simple, ARs are OP.

Why do you need a side weapon to overcome your main weapon's weakness, if your main weapon has no weakness? oh sure, you could switch to the SMG and kill heavies a little faster after you take out their shields, but is it really necessary?

I've been saying this since chrome, but got eaten alive by AR nerds. Where were you then?

ARs are not OP. They are terrible in CQC compared to SMGs, shotguns and HMGs

CCP nerfed the hell out of heavies because of whiners like you complaining about OP.

By the way how the hell can anyone honestly evaluate any weapon as being OP when players are running around with 10 million SP going against people with 3 million SP.

SP IS KING in dust. Any weapon carried by someone with 10 million SP (unless he is a drooling moron who can't spend SP correctly) is OP and any weapon carried by someone with 3 million SP is a toy.

Getting back on topic here, it seems to me that the problem with the logistics suits is that they have no well defined role and their flexibility causes them to be good at filling to many roles. In this thread alone people have talked about speed builds, hack builds, equipment builds, slayer builds, tank builds, etc.

It makes your head hurt just trying to think of all the possibilities, let alone how to balance them all.

In EVE, logistics are focuses around repairing others, with a few minor variations in providing some different bonuses. They are no jack of all trades, not super flexible. As such they do their job well and can be balanced around it.

To balance DUST logistics we could try and match that scope. Limit logistics to only injectors, repair tools, and nano hives. Give logistic suits bonuses to those items specifically, keeping their role focuses. So think bonuses to repair amount, hive capacity, injector armor restored (racially mixed and matched)

Keep the sidearm gone and drop the slots down to match assault suits. Boost the base ehp up to assault levels so their total health remains around the same. Drop fitting down to slightly higher than assault but put a suit bonus that reduces equipment fitting requirements. This will cause a tighter fitting focused on the modules, while preventing the surplus of fitting you can get by not fitting equipment.

This focuses the logistic suit into a clearly defined role, prevents abuse by not fitting equipment, and tones down the flexibility by trading slots for base stats.

This also serves to open up space for new suits in the future. Create dedicated hacking suits, or scanning suits, ewar suits, etc.

Don't try and force one suit into all those roles. To be able to do them you get what we have now, something unfocused and too flexible.

The Logistics dropsuit is outfitted with the latest in integrated diagnostic technology, most of which revolves around maintaining the condition and efficiency of squad mates and their equipment. As such, a soldier equipped with this class of dropsuit becomes a force multiplier, greatly improving the overall effectiveness of the unit. When deployed, a soldier equipped with a Logistics suit fills a vital tactical role in small unit operations and full-scale warfare, providing both, medical and mechanical support.

The story of how the logistics combat suit came to exist is as anecdotal as it is representative of the general Minmatar attitude towards military maintenance. A high-ranking tribal leader was visiting a Republic station for a strategic planning session on how best to use cybernetic clones in ground warfare. When a committee member suggested a full-scale development project to create a support armor variant, the tribal leader balked at what he considered a needless expense, since such a thing already existed. Pointing out one of the stationGÇÖs windows, he directed the committeeGÇÖs attention to a maintenance worker floating nearby in the hangar, welding armor plates onto a Rifter. A few minutes later, the worker stood in the committee chamber, demonstrating his suitGÇÖs functionality for most of the RepublicGÇÖs senior leadership. After a few modifications to allow it to interface directly with an NIS implant, the logistics suit was complete.

As an EVE Online player, I'm saying this: Not all things from EVE need to translate to Dust 514.

In Dust, the logistics suit gets misconstrued into the medic and support role by people who never played the class or just don't understand it.

The Logistics dropsuit is outfitted with the latest in integrated diagnostic technology, most of which revolves around maintaining the condition and efficiency of squad mates and their equipment. As such, a soldier equipped with this class of dropsuit becomes a force multiplier, greatly improving the overall effectiveness of the unit. When deployed, a soldier equipped with a Logistics suit fills a vital tactical role in small unit operations and full-scale warfare, providing both, medical and mechanical support.

Terrible argument. A logi loses what?

I'm not convinced its supposed to fill more than those roles

most of which revolves around maintaining the condition and efficiency of squad mates and their equipment

Would a 1-2% bonus be enough to bring the assault suits up to snuff? Thats equivalent to 0.5 - 1 complex damage mods at max skill.