DUST Search - An idea how to balance Logi's that I heard: Require equipment slots

Cosgar wrote:

Delirium Inferno wrote:

Stop and read before you start assuming what I am saying. You act like versatility is something that is exclusive to the logistics class like some defining feature. In truth, versatility is apart of every class. I'm not trying to limit the logistics options because I hate versatility, I'm trying to limit them because right now they can do a better job at assault than assault players. And that is all logistics, not just Caldari. And why is this? Because they get more high/low slots and more CPU/PG than assault and only have to sacrifice a sidearm which is barely used to begin with.

I am a supporter of versatility, but not so much that each class starts to bleed into one another. Logistics being forced to use all their equipment slots wouldn't make them a medic. Last I checked, the nanite injector and repair tool aren't the only pieces of equipment in the game. You have remote explosives, active scanners, uplinks, nanohives, and several more to come in the future such as cloaking. There are still plenty of versatile roles a logistics would be able to specialize into besides medic. But if you don't want to use equipment so you could save CPU/PG to be more of a slayer that hacks faster or something like that, then that to me sounds like a level of versatility that should be available for the assault class and not the logistics.

You're also missing the big picture. Now keep in mind this is all speculation, but think about why the logistics was the only suit class that didn't get a basic suit and was such an SP sink. Also look at the Gallente scout and its racial bonuses. I think CCP is laying some ground work for EWAR active modules. Scouts are probably going to get ECM and logistics are going to get shoehorned into a tackling role. On top of that, I believe that these modules are going to be high and low slot modules and not equipment. That's why we have so many slots and that would explain the high CPU/PG and the SP sink. They want this stuff to be be more specific to logistics while limiting how many modules the other classes can use at one time because they'll probably have higher equipment costs. Would you really want every class with the ability to run around with scramblers, nosferatu, and webafiers all on one suit?


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Delirium Inferno Edoras Corporation 236	Posted - 2013.05.13 07:05:00 - [1] - Quote Why would anyone be against this? It makes perfect sense. If you do not like that idea all that tells me is you are not using the equipment slots right now, in which case you aren't really a logistics and you should be trying to get CCP to buff up the assault suit instead of worrying that they might do something to the logistics.
Delirium Inferno Edoras Corporation 236	Posted - 2013.05.13 07:42:00 - [2] - Quote Minmatar logistics can still be a good hacker with something in every equipment slot, as your utility example. I selected logistics as my starter build in chromosome and have been using one to this day, I understand the logistics class. Support and utility wouldn't be affected by making equipment slots mandatory. The only thing you listed that would be effected is slaying, and I have no clue why you got that as a role for logistics. I mean, if logistics should be able to specialize in slaying then why do we even have the assault class? Let's just delete assault all together then.
Delirium Inferno Edoras Corporation 236	Posted - 2013.05.13 07:59:00 - [3] - Quote Stop and read before you start assuming what I am saying. You act like versatility is something that is exclusive to the logistics class like some defining feature. In truth, versatility is apart of every class. I'm not trying to limit the logistics options because I hate versatility, I'm trying to limit them because right now they can do a better job at assault than assault players. And that is all logistics, not just Caldari. And why is this? Because they get more high/low slots and more CPU/PG than assault and only have to sacrifice a sidearm which is barely used to begin with. I am a supporter of versatility, but not so much that each class starts to bleed into one another. Logistics being forced to use all their equipment slots wouldn't make them a medic. Last I checked, the nanite injector and repair tool aren't the only pieces of equipment in the game. You have remote explosives, active scanners, uplinks, nanohives, and several more to come in the future such as cloaking. There are still plenty of versatile roles a logistics would be able to specialize into besides medic. But if you don't want to use equipment so you could save CPU/PG to be more of a slayer that hacks faster or something like that, then that to me sounds like a level of versatility that should be available for the assault class and not the logistics.
Delirium Inferno Edoras Corporation 236	Posted - 2013.05.13 08:07:00 - [4] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Medic 1879 wrote: I think this is a good idea most logi's use full equipment anyway and when you ask people why logi's besides the Cal are OP all they can come up with is how much stuff we can fit if we dont bother fitting equipment. So to be honest I would much rather be forced to carry full equipment and act as support as I do that anyway rather than have some of these other nerfs being thrown about. If I wanted to have a few matches of killing only I could use my basic suit. In short I support this because forcing logi's to be more supporty is better than getting nerfed to oblivion. What race logistics do you run? If this happens, my Minmatar hacker build is going to be toast because I can't carry equipment with the catalyzers and codebreakers. It hurts the class' versatility. And again, why are we talking about the whole suit class being the problem. Can someone tell me how the Amarr, Minmatar, and Gallente logi somehow OP? Especially the Gallente, I want to hear that one first. This goes back to my point. You want to run an medium suit that doesn't carry full equipment but can hack fast and run. This sounds like a level of versatility for the Assault suit, not the Logistics suit. You should be petitioning CCP to buff the Assault Suit instead of trying to stop others from making the logistics suit more like a logistics suit. Oh, and I explained why it's not just the Caldari.
Delirium Inferno Edoras Corporation 239	Posted - 2013.05.13 08:18:00 - [5] - Quote Cosgar wrote: Delirium Inferno wrote: Stop and read before you start assuming what I am saying. You act like versatility is something that is exclusive to the logistics class like some defining feature. In truth, versatility is apart of every class. I'm not trying to limit the logistics options because I hate versatility, I'm trying to limit them because right now they can do a better job at assault than assault players. And that is all logistics, not just Caldari. And why is this? Because they get more high/low slots and more CPU/PG than assault and only have to sacrifice a sidearm which is barely used to begin with. I am a supporter of versatility, but not so much that each class starts to bleed into one another. Logistics being forced to use all their equipment slots wouldn't make them a medic. Last I checked, the nanite injector and repair tool aren't the only pieces of equipment in the game. You have remote explosives, active scanners, uplinks, nanohives, and several more to come in the future such as cloaking. There are still plenty of versatile roles a logistics would be able to specialize into besides medic. But if you don't want to use equipment so you could save CPU/PG to be more of a slayer that hacks faster or something like that, then that to me sounds like a level of versatility that should be available for the assault class and not the logistics. You're also missing the big picture. Now keep in mind this is all speculation, but think about why the logistics was the only suit class that didn't get a basic suit and was such an SP sink. Also look at the Gallente scout and its racial bonuses. I think CCP is laying some ground work for EWAR active modules. Scouts are probably going to get ECM and logistics are going to get shoehorned into a tackling role. On top of that, I believe that these modules are going to be high and low slot modules and not equipment. That's why we have so many slots and that would explain the high CPU/PG and the SP sink. They want this stuff to be be more specific to logistics while limiting how many modules the other classes can use at one time because they'll probably have higher equipment costs. Would you really want every class with the ability to run around with scramblers, nosferatu, and webafiers all on one suit? Logistics suit isn't the only suit not to have a basic suit. All specializations don't have a basic suit (and the same SP sink). Problem is CCP messed up and didn't give the other specializations different fitting options from the basic suits. As far as CPM has told us, they are going to be changing this so all specializations differ in fitting from the basics. Also your secon dpoint here makes no sense. Why would CCP design a suit to go EWAR with all these high/low slots if they leave their equipment blank? That makes no sense. Logistics class is designed to be the equipment guy. I'd love for you to get someone from CCP to say otherwise. Forcing the logistics class to remain the equipment guy instead of the equipment guy + assault guy isn't going to somehow make the other suits overpowered.
Delirium Inferno Edoras Corporation 239	Posted - 2013.05.13 08:21:00 - [6] - Quote Cosgar wrote: And why should my speedy hacking role go to an assault? Assaults are supposed to be the slayers. I thought we were arguing about logis being better slayers than assaults right now. Assaults are supposed to be slayers? Oh, I thought you were the one arguing for versatility. Saying assaults are supposed to be slayers is like saying logis are supposed to be medics. All I was saying is assaults should be able to be a better slayer than logis if that's what they wanted to do. Right now if an assault and a logi both decided they want to be slayers, the logi would be the better slayer. But the assault should still have versatility to do other roles as well besides slaying.
Delirium Inferno Edoras Corporation 239	Posted - 2013.05.13 08:26:00 - [7] - Quote Medic 1879 wrote: Cosgar wrote: Medic 1879 wrote: I think this is a good idea most logi's use full equipment anyway and when you ask people why logi's besides the Cal are OP all they can come up with is how much stuff we can fit if we dont bother fitting equipment. So to be honest I would much rather be forced to carry full equipment and act as support as I do that anyway rather than have some of these other nerfs being thrown about. If I wanted to have a few matches of killing only I could use my basic suit. In short I support this because forcing logi's to be more supporty is better than getting nerfed to oblivion. What race logistics do you run? If this happens, my Minmatar hacker build is going to be toast because I can't carry equipment with the catalyzers and codebreakers. It hurts the class' versatility. And again, why are we talking about the whole suit class being the problem. Can someone tell me how the Amarr, Minmatar, and Gallente logi somehow OP? Especially the Gallente, I want to hear that one first. I run Gal logi I have had many people tell me all logi's are OP but I too am still waiting on what makes the 3 besides the Cal op. I would still prefer Logi Bro's ideas but I would take this if it was a choice between this and complete and total nerf. And that's what all logis should do, because it's inevitable that something is going to happen to logis sooner or later and so far this is the only suggestion that wouldn't take away the light weapon slot or remove high/low slots. As a logi, I support this.
Delirium Inferno Edoras Corporation 239	Posted - 2013.05.13 08:53:00 - [8] - Quote All logi suits get more CPU/PG and high/low slots than their assault counterpart. Yes, all logis are the problem. They just happen to also get those equipment slots which don't need to be used up. Any assault guy would see the logi as a better option for assault at this point. What we're trying to do here is suggest methods of fixing this problem without tearing the logi suit apart. At the end of the day something is going to happen though. If you want an offensive oriented fitting, you should have to specialize into assault. Last I checked, Assault and Logi are both 10x skills. So why should logi be able to have an equipment build and a offensive slayer build while assault suits can only get the offensive slayer build? Your argument fails miserably.
Delirium Inferno Edoras Corporation 240	Posted - 2013.05.13 09:02:00 - [9] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: Lower the PG/CPU of all logi to below that of assault and then add bonuses to the logi that reduce the the PG/CPU of equipment only. This way would keep the logi viable as a logi but not much more. I was literally just about to post this. +1, this is another good solution for fixing logis without getting rid of our light weapon or removing slots.
Delirium Inferno Edoras Corporation 240	Posted - 2013.05.13 09:17:00 - [10] - Quote While I agree the assault does need a buff to encourage more slaying, the logistics still needs something to happen to encourage more use of equipment and I would like for that to happen with something more subtle like what we've been discussing opposed to taking stuff away. And Assault needs something fitting wise to distinguish it from basic suits (as do Scout and Sentinel). Most common things I've heard is either give it a second grenade slot or 2 equipment slots.

Delirium Inferno Edoras Corporation 244	Posted - 2013.05.13 17:13:00 - [11] - Quote NeoWraith Acedia wrote: Again.. the logistic suit has nothing to do with equipment, it's about creative freedom, the freedom to put 4-5 hacking mods on a suit, the freedom to put 4 nano-hives on a suit, the freedom to be the fastest sprinting suit(that might be the gallente scout now though). All other suits have their role somewhat cut out for them, the logi gets to decide it's role, it's not just a medic, it never will be. Did no one actually watch the video? The logi can excel at many indivdual roles, but never at all of them at the same time. The only role that should ever be forced on them is that they have to carry a gun so they can kill. Dr Stabwounds wrote: Real Logi's shouldn't have to suffer b/c people are abusing it. If your definition of logi is "pack mule" then sure, but that's not what logis actually are. It's funny how everyone has their own self-defined opinion on what the logistics suit is about. I'd love to here what CCP thinks its for, because it sure as heck seems like its meant for equipment. And it's also laughable how you say the logistics suit is about creative freedom, I thought all the suits was about creative freedom because Dust is about creative freedom? Well right now one suit has a lot more creative freedom than any other suit, so what do you do? If we balance it by giving every suit equal creative freedom than why do why even have different suits? We should just have 4 suits, one per race, which you can do whatever you want with.
Delirium Inferno Edoras Corporation 244	Posted - 2013.05.13 17:27:00 - [12] - Quote hooc order wrote: Delirium Inferno wrote: While I agree the assault does need a buff to encourage more slaying, the logistics still needs something to happen to encourage more use of equipment and I would like for that to happen with something more subtle like what we've been discussing opposed to taking stuff away. And Assault needs something fitting wise to distinguish it from basic suits (as do Scout and Sentinel). Most common things I've heard is either give it a second grenade slot or 2 equipment slots. The assault can carry two weapons...logi cannot. The fact that most assault players cannot make that advantage sing is testament to who plays assault and who plays logi. You are trying to nerf FPS player skill....not nerf OP...and the only result of nerfs that try to do that is the elimination of classes...and the migration of good players out of Dust. A better solution is for all of you in the "nerf everything that beats me" crowd is for you to go back to EvE and stay away from FPSs. You are bad players...you have huge SP advantages and you are still getting beat....get over it and move on. I'm not trying to nerf everything that beats, I don't think you understand that what is being proposed here is a very subtle tweak. Even with the lack of a sidearm, tell me why logistics can be better slayers than assault players? We want to fix this, but you say no because versatility. Well ok, but again last I checked Logistics and Assault are both 10x skills. So why can a logistics be an equipment guy and a slayer guy without needing to invest in a separate suit, while assault players can only be a slayer guy? Perhaps we should just raise the skill multiplier on logistics suits only or low all the other suits multiplier except logistics.
Delirium Inferno Edoras Corporation 245	Posted - 2013.05.13 17:39:00 - [13] - Quote NeoWraith Acedia wrote: The heavy is a 10X skill, all it can do is camp. Why are logistics more customizable than assault suits? Because they traded their base stats for those extra slots. An assaults role is predetermined by it's it's base stats, a logistics suit isn't. We can take those extra slots and do what what we want with them, meanwhile you guys are stuck with a permanent high/low slot in the form of health. Heavy suits are stuck with permanent Shield extenders and armor plates. You want more freedom in your fits? Give up some stats. Why can't a heavy run at 8m/s? Because it's a heavy. Terrible argument. A logi loses what? 60 hit points of base stats compared to the assault? Ok, well that can be fixed up with one mod slot. Oh and guess what? They get extra mod slots and CPU/PG, so it's not even taking away from other options. So slap a complex shield extender on one of those and you still have more CPU/PG, the same or more open slots, and all these equipment slots. If you really think that is balanced out by a sidearm then I can't really argue with you.
Delirium Inferno Edoras Corporation 245	Posted - 2013.05.13 17:45:00 - [14] - Quote Hey now, no need to get childish and call names. We're all just trying to help Dust become better. That said, most people in the war barge are not assault. You do realize that assault suits are not the same as basic suits? And that assaults suits are distinguished by white highlighting just like logistics are with yellow? Most people in the warbarge are in basic medium suits, and most likely those are the starter fits since they haven't figured how to favorite something yet.