DUST Search - An idea how to balance Logi's that I heard: Require equipment slots

Azri Sarum wrote:

Getting back on topic here, it seems to me that the problem with the logistics suits is that they have no well defined role and their flexibility causes them to be good at filling to many roles. In this thread alone people have talked about speed builds, hack builds, equipment builds, slayer builds, tank builds, etc.

It makes your head hurt just trying to think of all the possibilities, let alone how to balance them all.

In EVE, logistics are focuses around repairing others, with a few minor variations in providing some different bonuses. They are no jack of all trades, not super flexible. As such they do their job well and can be balanced around it.

To balance DUST logistics we could try and match that scope. Limit logistics to only injectors, repair tools, and nano hives. Give logistic suits bonuses to those items specifically, keeping their role focuses. So think bonuses to repair amount, hive capacity, injector armor restored (racially mixed and matched)

Keep the sidearm gone and drop the slots down to match assault suits. Boost the base ehp up to assault levels so their total health remains around the same. Drop fitting down to slightly higher than assault but put a suit bonus that reduces equipment fitting requirements. This will cause a tighter fitting focused on the modules, while preventing the surplus of fitting you can get by not fitting equipment.

This focuses the logistic suit into a clearly defined role, prevents abuse by not fitting equipment, and tones down the flexibility by trading slots for base stats.

This also serves to open up space for new suits in the future. Create dedicated hacking suits, or scanning suits, ewar suits, etc.

Don't try and force one suit into all those roles. To be able to do them you get what we have now, something unfocused and too flexible.

Quote:

The Logistics dropsuit is outfitted with the latest in integrated diagnostic technology, most of which revolves around maintaining the condition and efficiency of squad mates and their equipment. As such, a soldier equipped with this class of dropsuit becomes a force multiplier, greatly improving the overall effectiveness of the unit. When deployed, a soldier equipped with a Logistics suit fills a vital tactical role in small unit operations and full-scale warfare, providing both, medical and mechanical support.

The story of how the logistics combat suit came to exist is as anecdotal as it is representative of the general Minmatar attitude towards military maintenance. A high-ranking tribal leader was visiting a Republic station for a strategic planning session on how best to use cybernetic clones in ground warfare. When a committee member suggested a full-scale development project to create a support armor variant, the tribal leader balked at what he considered a needless expense, since such a thing already existed. Pointing out one of the stationGÇÖs windows, he directed the committeeGÇÖs attention to a maintenance worker floating nearby in the hangar, welding armor plates onto a Rifter. A few minutes later, the worker stood in the committee chamber, demonstrating his suitGÇÖs functionality for most of the RepublicGÇÖs senior leadership. After a few modifications to allow it to interface directly with an NIS implant, the logistics suit was complete.

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NeoWraith Acedia Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 411	Posted - 2013.05.13 18:32:00 - [61] - Quote Cosgar wrote: It's funny how people can easily overlook giving up the use of a sidearm slot... It's actually quite simple, ARs are OP. Why do you need a side weapon to overcome your main weapon's weakness, if your main weapon has no weakness? oh sure, you could switch to the SMG and kill heavies a little faster after you take out their shields, but is it really necessary?
hooc order Deep Space Republic Gentlemen's Agreement 58	Posted - 2013.05.13 18:34:00 - [62] - Quote Should point out logis have to use SP to get all the logi skills. So while assault are using SP to buff their two weapons or super buffing one weapon we are screwing around filling levels in nanohives and injectors. How hard is to to understand that you simply suck at this game. Logis have less weapons, less HP and have to send more SP on stupid crap and we are still beating you. In a game where SP is king you are being beat by people with a hard coded SP disadvantage. Stop tying to nerf your way out of your terrible game play. I should point out i have 3.6 million SP have almost nothing spent in armor or shields i have spent more in nanohives and injectors and i use them to help out the squad and i am still kicking your 6 to 10 million SP ass in a fire fights.
NeoWraith Acedia Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 411	Posted - 2013.05.13 18:38:00 - [63] - Quote Dr Stabwounds wrote: Pretty sure they are supposed to be the support class, which is done with equipment. Yes they said they are supposed to be the most versatile in terms of options, but that doesn't mean they aren't supposed to be the support. I think them saying they are the most versatile doesn't mean that support wasn't the intended role on the battlefield. The Black Mage in FF can learn haste and temper, one increases a teammates speed, the other increases their attack, both are clearly support moves. But do you think the black mage's main role is support? There is no class in Dust ATM who's primary goal isn't killing, can you design a suit that isn't meant for killing? Yes, if you want to be full support then more power to you, but please don't force me to stick support moves on my black/red mage just because you want your logi to be a white mage.
hooc order Deep Space Republic Gentlemen's Agreement 58	Posted - 2013.05.13 18:40:00 - [64] - Quote NeoWraith Acedia wrote: Cosgar wrote: It's funny how people can easily overlook giving up the use of a sidearm slot... It's actually quite simple, ARs are OP. Why do you need a side weapon to overcome your main weapon's weakness, if your main weapon has no weakness? oh sure, you could switch to the SMG and kill heavies a little faster after you take out their shields, but is it really necessary? ARs are not OP. They are terrible in CQC compared to SMGs, shotguns and HMGs CCP nerfed the hell out of heavies because of whiners like you complaining about OP. By the way how the hell can anyone honestly evaluate any weapon as being OP when players are running around with 10 million SP going against people with 3 million SP. SP IS KING in dust. Any weapon carried by someone with 10 million SP (unless he is a drooling moron who can't spend SP correctly) is OP and any weapon carried by someone with 3 million SP is a toy.
NeoWraith Acedia Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 413	Posted - 2013.05.13 18:45:00 - [65] - Quote hooc order wrote: [ ARs are not OP. They are terrible in CQC compared to SMGs Not true, in CQC an AR beats a shield tanked opponent while the SMG beats an armor tanked one. Quote: shotguns Well duh, a shot gun a is a main weapon though, where's the long range side weapon? Quote: and HMGs Oh please... And do remember, ARs are now mid range - CQC weapons, there will be different weapons intended for longer ranges. ARS suck at CQC? That's their main role now! Or have you not noticed all the clustterfucks going on?
hooc order Deep Space Republic Gentlemen's Agreement 58	Posted - 2013.05.13 18:52:00 - [66] - Quote NeoWraith Acedia wrote: hooc order wrote: [ ARs are not OP. They are terrible in CQC compared to SMGs Not true, in CQC an AR beats a shield tanked opponent while the SMG beats an armor tanked one. Learn to aim for the head. It is much easier to aim for the head with an SMG in CQC....just find the head level then wave it back and forth....if you do that with an AR your gun will bounce around from kick and you will run out of ammo and die.
Alaika Arbosa Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Interstellar Murder of Crows 166	Posted - 2013.05.13 19:42:00 - [67] - Quote I agree with this idea, it made me think of something else as well.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy 963	Posted - 2013.05.13 20:29:00 - [68] - Quote Ironic consideration, ARs are meant to be a sort of middle ground "jack of all trades" weapon, Logi's are meant to be a "pay to play" (in ISK) highly customizable suit.... complaints arise when the two are combined. New plan, require Assault suits to fit a side arm if their main weapon is an AR. Require Logi to fill an Equp slot with a non-hive item and make ARs not be able to fit on the Logi suit. Problem solved Note: The above idea is actually bad balance for several reasons and is presented more to highlight the unintended consequence and complexity present in the current situation. Having no sidearm is actually a significant limitation to most play styles for those who aren't using an AR. How many of these slayer logi are not running an AR? How many of that minority is doing so well as a slayer that they top the leaderboards/a case clear case can be made for them being outside of proper balance scaling? Cheers, Cross
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 857	Posted - 2013.05.13 21:51:00 - [69] - Quote NeoWraith Acedia wrote: Cosgar wrote: It's funny how people can easily overlook giving up the use of a sidearm slot... It's actually quite simple, ARs are OP. Why do you need a side weapon to overcome your main weapon's weakness, if your main weapon has no weakness? oh sure, you could switch to the SMG and kill heavies a little faster after you take out their shields, but is it really necessary? I've been saying this since chrome, but got eaten alive by AR nerds. Where were you then?
NeoWraith Acedia Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 419	Posted - 2013.05.13 21:58:00 - [70] - Quote Cosgar wrote: NeoWraith Acedia wrote: Cosgar wrote: It's funny how people can easily overlook giving up the use of a sidearm slot... It's actually quite simple, ARs are OP. Why do you need a side weapon to overcome your main weapon's weakness, if your main weapon has no weakness? oh sure, you could switch to the SMG and kill heavies a little faster after you take out their shields, but is it really necessary? I've been saying this since chrome, but got eaten alive by AR nerds. Where were you then? Using an AR on a fat suit Till I realized the type-II's mobility made it have a higher surviveability

Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 857	Posted - 2013.05.13 22:01:00 - [71] - Quote hooc order wrote: NeoWraith Acedia wrote: Cosgar wrote: It's funny how people can easily overlook giving up the use of a sidearm slot... It's actually quite simple, ARs are OP. Why do you need a side weapon to overcome your main weapon's weakness, if your main weapon has no weakness? oh sure, you could switch to the SMG and kill heavies a little faster after you take out their shields, but is it really necessary? ARs are not OP. They are terrible in CQC compared to SMGs, shotguns and HMGs CCP nerfed the hell out of heavies because of whiners like you complaining about OP. By the way how the hell can anyone honestly evaluate any weapon as being OP when players are running around with 10 million SP going against people with 3 million SP. SP IS KING in dust. Any weapon carried by someone with 10 million SP (unless he is a drooling moron who can't spend SP correctly) is OP and any weapon carried by someone with 3 million SP is a toy. I want to see numbers, not you talking out of your ass. I'll save you the trouble. Except for spike damage weapons like the shotgun, the AR DPSes every light weapon in the game. I dare anyone to prove me wrong.
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 858	Posted - 2013.05.13 23:08:00 - [72] - Quote Here, I did the work for you: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Anv4MqUic4uXdEVlLXZIR2EtaFFVYktxbGk3dTdWbGc#gid=0
Azri Sarum DUST University Ivy League 6	Posted - 2013.05.13 23:14:00 - [73] - Quote Getting back on topic here, it seems to me that the problem with the logistics suits is that they have no well defined role and their flexibility causes them to be good at filling to many roles. In this thread alone people have talked about speed builds, hack builds, equipment builds, slayer builds, tank builds, etc. It makes your head hurt just trying to think of all the possibilities, let alone how to balance them all. In EVE, logistics are focuses around repairing others, with a few minor variations in providing some different bonuses. They are no jack of all trades, not super flexible. As such they do their job well and can be balanced around it. To balance DUST logistics we could try and match that scope. Limit logistics to only injectors, repair tools, and nano hives. Give logistic suits bonuses to those items specifically, keeping their role focuses. So think bonuses to repair amount, hive capacity, injector armor restored (racially mixed and matched) Keep the sidearm gone and drop the slots down to match assault suits. Boost the base ehp up to assault levels so their total health remains around the same. Drop fitting down to slightly higher than assault but put a suit bonus that reduces equipment fitting requirements. This will cause a tighter fitting focused on the modules, while preventing the surplus of fitting you can get by not fitting equipment. This focuses the logistic suit into a clearly defined role, prevents abuse by not fitting equipment, and tones down the flexibility by trading slots for base stats. This also serves to open up space for new suits in the future. Create dedicated hacking suits, or scanning suits, ewar suits, etc. Don't try and force one suit into all those roles. To be able to do them you get what we have now, something unfocused and too flexible.
Cosgar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 861	Posted - 2013.05.13 23:50:00 - [74] - Quote Azri Sarum wrote: Getting back on topic here, it seems to me that the problem with the logistics suits is that they have no well defined role and their flexibility causes them to be good at filling to many roles. In this thread alone people have talked about speed builds, hack builds, equipment builds, slayer builds, tank builds, etc. It makes your head hurt just trying to think of all the possibilities, let alone how to balance them all. In EVE, logistics are focuses around repairing others, with a few minor variations in providing some different bonuses. They are no jack of all trades, not super flexible. As such they do their job well and can be balanced around it. To balance DUST logistics we could try and match that scope. Limit logistics to only injectors, repair tools, and nano hives. Give logistic suits bonuses to those items specifically, keeping their role focuses. So think bonuses to repair amount, hive capacity, injector armor restored (racially mixed and matched) Keep the sidearm gone and drop the slots down to match assault suits. Boost the base ehp up to assault levels so their total health remains around the same. Drop fitting down to slightly higher than assault but put a suit bonus that reduces equipment fitting requirements. This will cause a tighter fitting focused on the modules, while preventing the surplus of fitting you can get by not fitting equipment. This focuses the logistic suit into a clearly defined role, prevents abuse by not fitting equipment, and tones down the flexibility by trading slots for base stats. This also serves to open up space for new suits in the future. Create dedicated hacking suits, or scanning suits, ewar suits, etc. Don't try and force one suit into all those roles. To be able to do them you get what we have now, something unfocused and too flexible. As an EVE Online player, I'm saying this: Not all things from EVE need to translate to Dust 514. In Dust, the logistics suit gets misconstrued into the medic and support role by people who never played the class or just don't understand it. But if you want to bring lore into the argument, here's my counterpoint: Quote: The Logistics dropsuit is outfitted with the latest in integrated diagnostic technology, most of which revolves around maintaining the condition and efficiency of squad mates and their equipment. As such, a soldier equipped with this class of dropsuit becomes a force multiplier, greatly improving the overall effectiveness of the unit. When deployed, a soldier equipped with a Logistics suit fills a vital tactical role in small unit operations and full-scale warfare, providing both, medical and mechanical support. The story of how the logistics combat suit came to exist is as anecdotal as it is representative of the general Minmatar attitude towards military maintenance. A high-ranking tribal leader was visiting a Republic station for a strategic planning session on how best to use cybernetic clones in ground warfare. When a committee member suggested a full-scale development project to create a support armor variant, the tribal leader balked at what he considered a needless expense, since such a thing already existed. Pointing out one of the stationGÇÖs windows, he directed the committeeGÇÖs attention to a maintenance worker floating nearby in the hangar, welding armor plates onto a Rifter. A few minutes later, the worker stood in the committee chamber, demonstrating his suitGÇÖs functionality for most of the RepublicGÇÖs senior leadership. After a few modifications to allow it to interface directly with an NIS implant, the logistics suit was complete. If that's not enough, here's CCP Remnant, a dedicated Logibro on the subject, here. The logistics role doesn't just mean medic. It's a support suit designed for ideal flexibility through a larger fitting choices through a larger slot allocation. It's not just a medic, not just support, not just utility, or a slayer. It's flexible within its role by being able to fulfill any other role through it's flexibility with fittings. It's meant to do this to a lesser extent in comparison to the other suits, and did it in Chrome. But in uprising, people are using that fitting to define a tankier combat role and appears to be abusing it because of the other suits' inferior defined role. If the assaults aren't better defined as slayers, heavies defined as defenders, and scouts defined as recon/EWAR/espionage while the logistics has a better defined role, then the cutoff is the other suit classes. Instead of nerfing the logistics to make the other suits more attractive by comparison, the logistics should have its flexibility used as a control where the standards are raised to surpass the role a logistcs can fulfill and surpass it. Assaults should get direct combat related bonuses to their racial weapons to make it a more defined slayer, heavies should get resistance bonuses to better define it as a defender and scouts should be getting (better) speed/scanning/dampening bonuses to better define their respective roles. By bringing the logistics down to the other suits levels, it's only going to goad people into the next "fit of the month" and we'll be back here, having this discussion again. Let me reiterate my point one last time: Leave the logistics alone and buff the other classes to give them advantages over the logistics' flexibility when fitted to fulfill their role. Unless everyone cares about their novelty racial bonuses. (except the Minmatar scout, that one is actually well designed)
Azri Sarum DUST University Ivy League 6	Posted - 2013.05.14 00:28:00 - [75] - Quote Cosgar wrote: As an EVE Online player, I'm saying this: Not all things from EVE need to translate to Dust 514. With this I totally agree. There does need to be some similarities, or at least logical consistency. With EVE and DUST residing in the same universe the thought processes that generated the EVE ships/roles/modules etc would be the same ones creating the DUST suits. As the games become more closely linked we will start to see the disparity more and more if we are not careful. Cosgar wrote: In Dust, the logistics suit gets misconstrued into the medic and support role by people who never played the class or just don't understand it. Quote: The Logistics dropsuit is outfitted with the latest in integrated diagnostic technology, most of which revolves around maintaining the condition and efficiency of squad mates and their equipment. As such, a soldier equipped with this class of dropsuit becomes a force multiplier, greatly improving the overall effectiveness of the unit. When deployed, a soldier equipped with a Logistics suit fills a vital tactical role in small unit operations and full-scale warfare, providing both, medical and mechanical support. So reading and watching what you linked I still dont see the logistics suit as supposed to be filling more than the medic/support role. I highlighted a section of that wiki quote. It describes the logistics suit as one that provides medic and mechanical support roles. The video, while it did highlight on the flexibility of the minmatar logistics, it focuses on saying it had enough equipments slots to sustain its squad in battle. Again support. I'm not convinced its supposed to fill more than those roles, and its the flexibility that is allowing the suit to go beyond those roles (coupled with poor bonuses for the other suits, but thats another thread in and of itself).
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis League of Infamy 970	Posted - 2013.05.14 00:47:00 - [76] - Quote Delirium Inferno wrote: Terrible argument. A logi loses what? Caldari Assault More Shields More Armor More Shield Recharge More Movement Speed More Sprint Speed Longer Sprint Duration More Stamina Higher Stamina Recovery Rate Higher Scan Precision Posses a Sidearm Amarr Assault More PG More Shields More Shield Recharge More Movement Speed More Sprint Speed Longer Sprint Duration More Stamina Higher Stamina Recovery Rate Higher Scan Precision Minmatar Assault More Shields Armor Repair Rate (suit native buff, does not require mods) More Movement Speed More Sprint Speed Longer Sprint Duration More Stamina Higher Stamina Recovery Rate Higher Scan Precision Posses a Sidearm 1 more High Power slot Gallente Assault More Shields More Armor More Shield Recharge More Movement Speed More Sprint Speed Longer Sprint Duration More Stamina Higher Stamina Recovery Rate Higher Scan Precision Posses a Sidearm Can a Logi overcome some of these limitations? Sure at a cost of additional ISK, with the Meta prices normalized base suit stats are now of more value than they were because they reduce overall fit costs. Further a Logi frame cannot overcome all of these shortfalls at once so any functionally valid comparison must compare all stats not cheery pick a few. If a specific stat is broken/not useful that stat needs fixed, nerfs don't need handed down based on it. Identifying the whole context, and then the weak points is key to balance comparisons. 0.02 ISK Cross
NeoWraith Acedia Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 425	Posted - 2013.05.14 01:06:00 - [77] - Quote Azri Sarum wrote: I'm not convinced its supposed to fill more than those roles Quote: most of which revolves around maintaining the condition and efficiency of squad mates and their equipment Most, doesn't mean it's its only role. Any good logi should at least be good enough at defending him/herself so that they don't hold their squad back. If you're logi is just another corpse on the floor, then they can't exactly support the squad.
Azri Sarum DUST University Ivy League 6	Posted - 2013.05.14 02:11:00 - [78] - Quote Yea sorry, I didn't make that very clear. Logi should definitely be able to defend themselves. Its a fine line though between being able to defend yourself and being better at it than assault suits. Would a 1-2% bonus be enough to bring the assault suits up to snuff? Thats equivalent to 0.5 - 1 complex damage mods at max skill.
NeoWraith Acedia Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 426	Posted - 2013.05.14 02:13:00 - [79] - Quote Azri Sarum wrote: Would a 1-2% bonus be enough to bring the assault suits up to snuff? Thats equivalent to 0.5 - 1 complex damage mods at max skill. It's better, it wouldn't be effected by stacking penalties.


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