Because the caldari logistics is not the only problem, its all four of them being > assaults.

If this is what one of our CPM thinks, then it be best to start preparing yourselves fellow logis, CCP's going to bring down Mjolnir any day now. Ignoring the fact that all complaints so far have been about the Caldari logi and no person has yet to actually give good reasons for why all Logis are in need of a nerf.

If this is what one of our CPM thinks, then it be best to start preparing yourselves fellow logis, CCP's going to bring down Mjolnir any day now. Ignoring the fact that all complaints so far have been about the Caldari logi and no person has yet to actually give good reasons for why all Logis are in need of a nerf.

While not all logis are OP, the caldari one is. It has more CPU/PG than any other assault, slightly lower base hp that can easily be overcome with all the extra slots it has, tons of equipments slots, and with its skills, high shield regeneration.

I have trouble taking this seriously...

What's the issue with the Amarr logi (for example?). Am I missing something, or are they missing something?

If this is what one of our CPM thinks, then it be best to start preparing yourselves fellow logis, CCP's going to bring down Mjolnir any day now. Ignoring the fact that all complaints so far have been about the Caldari logi and no person has yet to actually give good reasons for why all Logis are in need of a nerf.

If this is what one of our CPM thinks, then it be best to start preparing yourselves fellow logis, CCP's going to bring down Mjolnir any day now. Ignoring the fact that all complaints so far have been about the Caldari logi and no person has yet to actually give good reasons for why all Logis are in need of a nerf.

If this is what one of our CPM thinks, then it be best to start preparing yourselves fellow logis, CCP's going to bring down Mjolnir any day now. Ignoring the fact that all complaints so far have been about the Caldari logi and no person has yet to actually give good reasons for why all Logis are in need of a nerf.

I keep saying Logis dont need a nerf they just need less high/ low slots.......wait but before you stick the long arm of trolling down my throat.....

GIVE THEM SPECIALISED MED SLOTS UNIQUE TO THEIR SUIT that allow them to augment their repair, scan, rezing, hacking, and other passive skills so Logis who do want to play support now can do so with enhancements to their game, and those logis who want to run as "Assault +1's" cant nearly tank so much as they used to.

Don't worry.

It'll be a cold day in hell before I see the rest of the CPM pushing for balance specific balance changes beyond drawing attention to things that are obviously broken. This is not something we are suited for and in every situation it's better to point CCP to threads on the subjects than to simply say "Sup CCP, make this stat X cause we are CPM"


That's not what the CPM is there for, and it's not what we're going to do. Balance is best left to people who actually understand the concept of fair and objective use... Which is not the case for most of the CPM.

If a nerf comes it's because the community was spamming about it and that's all we had to link to CCP. Just sayin'

We've been doing this nerf witch hunt for 2 years. Look at how ****ed up Dust 514 is right now. Isn't it time we did something different. Logis are where they need to be and I wish I could meet Remnant and shake his hand. After the 14th, watch how many "Nerf the Scrambler Rifle!" threads pop up. IWS claimed that after this happens, players are going to move to the Gallente logi and go ham with that. My question is, with what SP? It's starting to actually make sense why the Logis are such an SP sink in the first place.
CCP, you magnificent bastards. You planned this all along, didn't you?

Moreover anyone who thinks the gallente logi is the better choice of slayer logi clearly hasn't used a minmatar logi. The threads that pop up once vk.1s are back are going to induce so much rage.

Future prediction of forum threads
Logi mk.1 is a better slayer than all assault suits

Yeah that'll be the day:

"Fear my suit that has been relatively unchanged since replication! Kneel in terror to my overpowered 4th equipment slot at the cost of stamina! All who oppose me shalL be slain by my racial bonus that is arguably only useful for one game mode!"

My prediction is that after the 14th, Logigate will come to a swift conclusion.

If this is what one of our CPM thinks, then it be best to start preparing yourselves fellow logis, CCP's going to bring down Mjolnir any day now. Ignoring the fact that all complaints so far have been about the Caldari logi and no person has yet to actually give good reasons for why all Logis are in need of a nerf.

Also, for Space Jebus's sake, please tell CCP that having a bright yellow combat suit is pretty much the worst possible combat idea ever.

Should only be yellow on the backplate, so team members know who the logi is but people attacking don't.

You're dealing in absolutes here. The only opinions you seem willing to address are either "logis are fine" which you seem to agree with, or "all logis are OP" which you dismiss. This isn't conducive to a productive conversation.

Only the Cladari logi is Op, it needs to be toned down. Could every other suit use some tweaks for better or worse? Yes, but they aren't the subject of these threads, and when the other logis are the subject of those threads it's because people are using the caladari logi to generalize them all as OP.

But if you want to me to take "all logis are OP" seriously, then how about you offer proof as to why each individual logi is OP? Start with the Amarr suit. I want stats and possible fittings, not just blanket statements, anyone who can't offer any needs to STFU before they ruin the game any more than they already have.

I have trouble taking this seriously...

What's the issue with the Amarr logi (for example?). Am I missing something, or are they missing something?

While not all logis are OP, the caldari one is. It has more CPU/PG than any other assault, slightly lower base hp that can easily be overcome with all the extra slots it has, tons of equipments slots, and with its skills, high shield regeneration.

Only the Cladari logi is Op, it needs to be toned down. Could every other suit use some tweaks for better or worse? Yes, but they aren't the subject of these threads, and when the other logis are the subject of those threads it's because people are using the caladari logi to generalize them all as OP.

But if you want to me to take "all logis are OP" seriously, then how about you offer proof as to why each individual logi is OP? Start with the Amarr suit. I want stats and possible fittings, not just blanket statements, anyone who can't offer any needs to STFU before they ruin the game any more than they already have.

Don't worry.

It'll be a cold day in hell before I see the rest of the CPM pushing for balance specific balance changes beyond drawing attention to things that are obviously broken. This is not something we are suited for and in every situation it's better to point CCP to threads on the subjects than to simply say "Sup CCP, make this stat X cause we are CPM"


That's not what the CPM is there for, and it's not what we're going to do. Balance is best left to people who actually understand the concept of fair and objective use... Which is not the case for most of the CPM.

If a nerf comes it's because the community was spamming about it and that's all we had to link to CCP. Just sayin'

Since I get the feeling that most people write and read in General Discussion exclusively, I am copying and pasting this from Feedback/Requests.

It's the racial bonuses. They seem completely and utterly arbitrary, and the game's overall balance suffers for it. We all know the most glaring and over-discussed racial bonus, the Caldari logi shield extender buff, but what about the heavy's "weapon feedback damage reduction?" What about the shield recharge rate increase to all the assault suits, even though it mostly benefits Amarr and Caldari? If any of these bonuses have any real reason behind them, may a Dev feel free to come in and tell me about it, but otherwise, I suggest a complete re-work of racial bonuses, and class bonuses.

Assault
Assault Dropsuit Bonus- 2% hand-held weaponry damage increase per level
Caldari Assault Bonus- 3% shield extender increase per level
Gallente Assault Bonus- 5% armor repair module rate increase per level
Minmatar Assault Bonus- 5% hand-held weaponry clip increase per level
Amarr Assault Bonus- 5% reduction to energy weapon heat build-up per level

Logistics
Logistics Dropsuit Bonus- Keep +1 armor repair per level
Caldari Logistics Bonus- 10% nanohive nanite capacity bonus per level
Gallente Logistics Bonus- 5% equipment PG/CPU reduction per level
Minmatar Logistics Bonus- Keep 5% hacking speed bonus per level
Amarr Logistics Bonus- 5% repair tool rate increase per level

Heavy
Heavy Dropsuit Bonus- 2% hand-held weaponry damage received reduction per level
Amarr Heavy Bonus- 2% dropsuit shield and armor increase per level

Scout
Scout Dropsuit Bonus- Keep 5% scan profile reduction per level
Gallente Scout Bonus- 10% dropsuit and active scanner scan radius increase per level
Minmatar Scout Bonus- Keep 5% melee and nova knife damage increase per level

You can see, excluding scouts, the bonuses have been changed to fit the role of the suit. The assault dropsuit's role has been strengthened for long life and general combat, the logistics dropsuit's role has been strengthened to triage and miscellaneous activities, and the heavy dropsuit's role has been strengthened to survivability beyond the assault dropsuit. Scouts still retain their recon and intelligence roles, and they are all spec'd to do what they are meant to do. Most importantly, there were no dropsuit base stat nerfs, which seems to be most people's ideas to fix imbalances.

Feel free to make your own amendments, and comment.

EDITS: Assault Dropsuit Bonus changed from 3% to 2% per level, Heavy Dropsuit Bonus changed from 3% to 2% to match.
Amarr Logistics given back 5% armor repair module rate bonus, was previously +5% repair tool rate per level, Amarr Assault given back energy weapon heat build-up reduction per level, was previously +5% armor repair module rate per level.
Minmatar Assault Bonus changed from +5% sidearm clip size to +5% any hand-held weapon clip size per level.
Even more changes: Gallente Assault given +5% armor repair module rate, Amarr Assault given +3% armor plate health bonus per level, Amarr Logi given back original +5% repair tool rate per level.
Amarr Assault Bonus changed again, now to 5% reduction to energy weapon heat build up per level.
Gallente Scout Bonus affects dropsuit AND active scanner radius now.

Man for all you medic role players perhaps the first rule of the hippocratic oath will serve you well here.

FIRST DO NO HARM!!!

Aside from the lul caldari bonus, the other problem is really the pg CPU issue. Ccp did a terrible job assigning those values and besides the rather broken amarr assault, every other race has to give up one two slots for fitting modules even at perfect skills to fully use and best fit suits. With the logi suits you just fit as needed and leave an equipment slot empty, or low quality fitted and make the hp disparity even larger than just the small bump from caldair logi bonus.

It's a catch 22 for ccp, they'll always need more CPU pg because of equip slots, instead they should drop other slots to avoid making them so desirable above assault suits.

Aside from the lul caldari bonus, the other problem is really the pg CPU issue. Ccp did a terrible job assigning those values and besides the rather broken amarr assault, every other race has to give up one two slots for fitting modules even at perfect skills to fully use and best fit suits. With the logi suits you just fit as needed and leave an equipment slot empty, or low quality fitted and make the hp disparity even larger than just the small bump from caldair logi bonus.

It's a catch 22 for ccp, they'll always need more CPU pg because of equip slots, instead they should drop other slots to avoid making them so desirable above assault suits.

H: Shield extender 54 CPU / 11PG
H: Shield extender 54 CPU / 11PG
H: Shield extender 54 CPU / 11PG
H: Shield extender 54 CPU / 11PG
H: Shield extender 54 CPU / 11 PG

Total = 270 CPU/ 55 PG

L: Complex Shield Regulator 35 CPU/ 3 PG
L: Complex Kinetic mod 27 CPU/ 15 PG
L:Basic Armor Repairer 20 CPU / 1 PG
L: Basic CPU Upgrade = 16% more CPU

Total = 83 CPU / 19 PG

LW: Balac: 90 CPU 13 PG
G: Core Locus grenade 48 CPU / 6 PG
Or Allotek Flux 52 CPU / 6 PG

Total: 138 or 142 CPU / 19 PG

E: Ishkone Gauged Nano Hive: 59 CPU / 11PG
E: Blank
E: Blank

Total: 59 CPU /11 PG

CPU Available: 507 / PG available: 101.4

Total CPU Used: 550 or 554 CPU / PG used: 104

But that doesn't fit right? Except 507 x 1.16 = 588.12

Still not enough PG right? Assault Rifle Fitting skill(whatever it's called) 13 x .25 = 3.25
104 - 3.25 = 100.75

So all this just barely fit, but is it really that much better than what can be done with a Caldari Assault Suit?

Edit:
Without CL bonus:
Caldari Assault: 412.5 + 290.4 =702.9 EHP
Caldari Logistics:337.5 + 363 = 700.5 EHP

With CL Bonus: 337.5 + 445.5 = 783 EHP
783(L) - 702.9(A) = 80.1 HP difference.

My god, this is game breaking

Edit: Now if you used a complex CPU Upgrade, and replaced the Basic Armor repairer with a PG Upgrade, then you would be able to fill your other equipment slots, but I want all assault users to realize that this is far more expensive than your suit would ever get.

Each race variant in logistics is superior to its equal in assault, what was once portrayed as the support class has become the way to go.

Let us not forget that a medium frame is almost as good as a racial assault suit, which is crap in comparison with a logistics suit.

While not all logis are OP, the caldari one is. It has more CPU/PG than any other assault, slightly lower base hp that can easily be overcome with all the extra slots it has, tons of equipments slots, and with its skills, high shield regeneration.

I really think a lot of the changes we've seen in uprising have been CCP laying the groundwork for new weapons, and modules we'll be seeing soon.Gäó If you have no idea what I'm talking about look up some EWAR modules in EVE Online. I think they're trying to shoehorn scouts into being target painters and logis to be EMCs and Tacklers. Just my 0.2 ISK...

I really think a lot of the changes we've seen in uprising have been CCP laying the groundwork for new weapons, and modules we'll be seeing soon.Gäó If you have no idea what I'm talking about look up some EWAR modules in EVE Online. I think they're trying to shoehorn scouts into being target painters and logis to be EMCs and Tacklers. Just my 0.2 ISK...

Well, it's still better than Amarr assault....

But I like being a logibee...

Think about it, we buzz around our squad, pollinating them with nanohives and we stab them in the ass with our injector needles. It all makes sense.

Yeah this is spot on. EW is going to be a huge part of DUST 514.

Then please enlighten me as to what your point actually was?

So logi's are op because they got good bonus's and assaults didn't? Buff the assault give it viable bonus's first.

Say for example the Cal logi lost its silly bonus and the assault got a bonus like +2% dam per level for assault and then some kind of racial bonus as well would you still go logi?

Probably.
I would slap on a complex damage mod, and I get to keep equipment slots.
Which means nanohives, nanite injectors and utility like the scanner.
If it was 15%, and the racial bonuses were good, then I would go assault.

I stole that idea from a thread belonging to Logi Bro I cant remember if it was +2% or 3% to be honest and the racial bonus's he came up with were pretty good something like that making all the suits useable would be better than just blanket nerfs in my opinion. You just know the Cal logi is OP but if the entire class gets nerf'd its just a question of whats next on the list to nerf back to the stone age.

In b4 "Tackling is OP!"

I hope the Webifier is an active high slot module or equipment that has a 40-60m range, 8.5m radius at max level and is reusable like injectors for -30-50% movement speed. I might actually give up my light weapon slot for that lol. What do you think?

My dropship forces me to use two turrets or else "INVALID FITTING".
Sucks more CPU/PG than I might like. I assume that's there for balance




The assault dropship forces Three turrets or else I can't make a single fitting.
Why can't this apply to Logi's dropsuits and might it prevent the Super-Assault troops that logis now can be?

More crazy ideas coming in.

Again, how are all the logis the problem?

I always envisioned it as a repair type device that could lock on and slow someone down for X ammount of seconds >:D. I can't imagine how they will implement it but I hope that it's a piece of equipment. I went Galente logi proto banking on the hope that CCP would give us lots of cool new toys to play with.

I'm looking forward to the EW suite of features A LOT! I'm a big fan of this side of combat and can't wait to be scrambling minimaps, blocking voice comms and giving my squad superior intel. :D

as you can see the opinion from a protobear constantly dying to militia dudes is not worth much might aswell remove all suits and have the same suit and weapon for everyone.

Because the caldari logistics is not the only problem, its all four of them being > assaults.

I've heard that every time a post is made in a logi-thread, a nanite injector is doomed to fail.



So, you agree that proto logis are not OP? Or do you just feel awesome calling people out on the internet?



Is this all he wrote? How do I know this isn't taken out of context? Can you include the source? I hope someone of CPM is capable to give more background about why he thinks that...How can we even start a decent thread based on this alone?

So, you agree that proto logis are not OP? Or do you just feel awesome calling people out on the internet?

Actually, it is true.
Caldari Logi is overpowered, waay above any other Logi, however assaults are pointless in comparison to logi.
Any sane assault would go the logi path, because whatever "disadvantages" they have, the extra slots make up for them, and the equipment slots let them stay versatile, while not sacrifising firepower what so ever.
In comparison, the Assault is like the basic suit....
Oh wait, it is the basic suit, with some worthless passives >_>

Face it logis, your suit can output the same DPS, have the same tank, AND you have 3 equipment slots.
Also easier to fit, and have inherent armor regeneration.
Sigh, how much I would love to have it for my Gallente basic/assault suit.

I feel awesome because Iron Wolf Saber is butthurt because he gets stomped by yellow awesomeness.

Anyway:
first of all, logis are forced to fit a weapon because they also need to be able to defend themself especially because they are shiny yellow easy to see and also slower, have less stamina and most importantly have significantly less STRAFE speed (and there is not module to increase strafe speed). they should not be penalized for having to fit a weapon with all the other combat related drawbacks in stats.

Second, in real squad gameplay (not regular pubstomp) logis need to be fast enough to keep up with the assaults and the flow of the battle and also be durable enough to not get picked out and killed, thus you need slots. A logi is useless when he arrives after the combat has ended already and then just dies like everyone else.

Third, only the tanking capability of some logis is the problem. The amarr logi is actually weak, it has less PG/CPU then the racial assault brother, has 2 slots less than every other logi and does not get the the major benefit of the amarr logi before proto level (the sidearm slot). The amarr logi actually needs a buff in PG/CPU and the sidearm should be available earlier (amarr is the laser race, laser is useless up close thus they need a sidearm, let them carry one) and all other suits need to be slightly brought down in terms of tanking after fitting all modules.

Another problem is the bonus on the assault suits making the assaults only slightly better than the regular medium frame. This and the fact that the logi suits bonus is usuall better adds together and creates a gap but this does not mean that the logis are OP, the assaults are just too weak while logis are slightly too good. All that has to be done is fix the tanking capabilities of some logis (by chaning suit bonus and slots), bring the amarr logi up to be on par with the rest and give the assaults proper suit bonus and slight boost to EHP.

this post right here needs to be stickied for the slow to comprehend. Logis dont need high and low slots to do their jobs. they need equipment. large amount of slots just makes them a an anomaly that can carry equipment and be the best assault class simultaneously.

the 'buff assaults' debate fails hard. assaults are fine. the problem is that the logi suits are better than their assault counterparts. its also not just the caldari so stop saying it. the gallente will have the same problem when they add armor mods that dont affect movement.

no amount of QQ threads will change the fact that anyone who can read knows to pick a bumblebee suit and a tactical AR if they want to do well. CCP will address it, you dont have to like it.

this post right here needs to be stickied for the slow to comprehend. Logis dont need high and low slots to do their jobs, they need equipment. large amount of slots just makes them a an anomaly that can carry equipment and be the best assault class simultaneously..

this post right here needs to be stickied for the slow to comprehend. Logis dont need high and low slots to do their jobs. they need equipment. large amount of slots just makes them a an anomaly that can carry equipment and be the best assault class simultaneously.

the 'buff assaults' debate fails hard. assaults are fine. the problem is that the logi suits are better than their assault counterparts. its also not just the caldari so stop saying it. the gallente will have the same problem when they add armor mods that dont affect movement.

no amount of QQ threads will change the fact that anyone who can read knows to pick a bumblebee suit and a tactical AR if they want to do well. CCP will address it, you dont have to like it.

And on that day, the ****ing nerf witch hunt will continue. What do you think is next? Heavies are almost back to their former glory, they could use another nerf bat to the knees again. Too soon? Why not the Minmatar Scout? He's doing well, making speed tanking a thing and all. Oh, I know, Tanks! Everyone hates tanks, right? Oh wait, they just got another ****ing ninja nerf and their circuitry skills are bugged so they barely have the PG to equip half their modules. Mass Drivers? Nope, they "fixed" the MD and called it helping us. Hmmm, what's left to nerf... Dropshi- nah, I can't even joke about them. Everything has has been the Nancy Kerigan to CCP's Tonya Harding... what.. can.. we... nerf... Oh! I know! Let's nerf the Assaults next!
Pffft! Hahahaha! Yeah right, CCP will never nerf the Assaults. They need them to bring in the CoD, BF, Halo crowd. You see what I'm getting at? For 2 years, this game has been degraded from an arms race to a nerf war and the line has to be drawn somewhere. I say here and now, we draw it at logistics! We've been sitting here discussing several threads on how to make the assaults better and I'll be damned if they nerf my logibee because of a bunch of butthurt assaults and a CPM member that generalized an entire suit class. I'm not going to take it lying down. When this game updates tomorrow and that night the forums are filled with Caldari logis QQing about the scrambler rifle, remember what happened for the past few days. Stop the nerfing. We need the meta game to be about the game and not circlejerking a about what needs to be nerfed on these goddamned forums.

Off topic but Cosgar I seem to recall you mentioning a milita ScR in a different thread is this definatley confirmed?

[quote=Jack McReady]
PS: you talk about militia gear in your first post and about yellow awesomeness in the second, is there militia logi I didn't see?

I'm sorry, what?

In a different thread you mentioned a militia scrambler rifle lol and everyone wanted to know if there definatley was one the thread was "Its tomorrow."

this post right here needs to be stickied for the slow to comprehend. Logis dont need high and low slots to do their jobs. they need equipment. large amount of slots just makes them a an anomaly that can carry equipment and be the best assault class simultaneously.

the 'buff assaults' debate fails hard. assaults are fine. the problem is that the logi suits are better than their assault counterparts. its also not just the caldari so stop saying it. the gallente will have the same problem when they add armor mods that dont affect movement.

no amount of QQ threads will change the fact that anyone who can read knows to pick a bumblebee suit and a tactical AR if they want to do well. CCP will address it, you dont have to like it.

except we need hp to survive more than assaults

assaults should rely on logis to keep their ammo and armor up and keep them alive

most of the time an assault player while doing any one thing is frozen solid we need a large hp buffer in order to take the hits while being frozen in an animation

otherwise we are useless and you would never see another person running around healing or reviving theres a reason you dont see scouts running around with nanite injectors and repair tools

Why do you need to survive more than a assault who is on the front line? Aren't Logis the support them? Right now, like many have said, they are support, frontline, and selfsupport without much compromises.

I agree with removing the Light weapon slot idea, allowing only a sidearm, or the slot count reduced, one or the other.

My assesment is that only the Caldari Logi needs tuning:

Currently, the bonus is too combat oriented.
Also, having NINE HI/LOs (+3 EQ)) is too much when compared to even other logis.


Fix those and we are ready for next testing round.


If devs feel that all logis are too combat-oriented and are too flexible so they trump assaults, removing flexibility is NOT the way.
Better solution: Give assault class some sweet combat oriented bonus which would define them as combat platform.


(perhaps even... +1% damage per level OMG?? )

I'll be honest.

I see a yellow suit and I go buggy nuts trying to kill it.

Not because I think it's OP.

Because it's a logi, and I kill them first. Past history has shown me that they're not significantly harder to kill than assault suits. they just recover faster if they escape. The preferred weapons of both the assault and logi are greater concern to me bluntly. the Tac AR and Duvolle on a scout suit makes chutney out of everything. they start shooting that and you really don't have the time to chew through the defenses of either suit.

Flux nades solve both problems rather swiftly though. So do shotguns.

And they seem to think 700 EHP means standing still in front of an HMG is a good idea. if they have a duvolle or TAC they probably can, though. DPS tank at it's finest, and I know a few people who run three damage mods instead of all highs running extenders. DPS tank is still effective.

Logis dont need high and low slots to do their jobs.

Same DPS output, same Tanking possibility (yes, all Logi's, not just the assault) and 3 equipment slots at the price of... a sidearm that I don't even put on my suit anyway to fit better gear?
Also, inherent armor regeneration.

So basically, you do everything the assault does better.

Like I said, offer facts or SFTU, like the fact that if it wasn't for it's bonus, the Cal Logi would need the extra slot just to tie with the assault suit in the HP department. You want to strip them of slots, give them the same base stats as an assault suit so that the only difference is the side arm vs equipment, because that is in fact the only difference aside from the creative freedom of further customizing your fit.

If again you cannot comprehend why the logi fighting alongside you needs the same amount of health as you then you need to STFU, you know nothing about balance or role. they are combat medics, not redline medics, they need just as much surviveability as you if they're going to be of any use. That's also why the Amarr suit is the worst logi, it's the most fragile.

Stop trying to turn logis into your personal babysitters.