When open market finally arrives, we will hop in excitement on it just to find the game funded and ran by Russian oligarchs from that point onwards.

Paying cash for gear makes it impossible to create an economy parallel to that of EVE online. How would that game play, if nullsec pilots could just replace their battleship with NPC injected aurum ones? Dust PC at its core is no different. It's a game of isk ultimately. Using p2w gear will buy your alliance clone packs and infrastructure upgrades. That gear is not player made; it just pops out of thin air.

I conclude thus, that due to this choise, dust economy will remain limited and shallow. Economic warfare will be largely aurum based. To simplify it and make the ground even, I suggest bringing out the last word in PC: Genolution 'P-2W' clone pack, at 40000 AUR (25% discount).

The problem is that CCP has explicitly stated that they will be relying on the player market as part of their efforts to avoid P2W. Trading IRL cash for ISK poses a massive P2W problem when people can then buy clone packs with it.

Basically, unless PC is up and running to the point where Genolution can be shut down before the player market comes in then the highest level of the game will be broken. Preponderance is an essential strategic element of PC, allowing people to pay to circumvent it makes this game P2W.

sounds about right. IMO, it's one thing to have "early access" aurum items like the neo suits and the modules that perform at next-tier levels, but only require this-tier skills to use. there isn't really anything wrong with this, because it's basically like a paid prevew. sure you can buy 100 or so suits and the modules to fit them, all neo, or their equivalent, of course, and Dust makes about $20 off each customer that does this...but there is no definitive advantage afforded by this. It's simply the ability to see what next level's gear is like, to decide if that's really the direction you want to move toward.

What I do take offence to, however, are the aurum variants of "this tier" weapons, such as the 'Genesis NT-511, or the 'Killswitch' GEK-36, that perform better than their isk-paid counterparts. THIS is where the p2w environment comes from...the idea that, by giving the devs more money than anyone else, you should be entitled to a battlefield advantage over everyone else. The "supercharged" versions of weapons and the like that cost aurum to purchase, but aren't early access i.e. you only need sniper rifle operation lv 3 to use the NT-511, but for aurum instead, you can buy the 'genesis' nt-511, which does more damage, with the same skill level requirements, and is the same meta level, meaning it isn't "early access" equipment.

The clear decision here, if CCP wants to have a rich, thriving player-based market in Dust, the same way they do as EVE, then they need to remove the aurum weapon variants.

1 - All this is subject to change and improvement
2 - Right now, items are not built by anyone, they-¦re just bought out of thin air. Be it by isk, be it by aurum.
3 - Those who buy thing with aurum will sell them for isk, we-¦ll have a "Lords of War" group that will supply all sides, as long as they pay the price (The expensive one).
4 - They have a guy with PhD in Economy, i think they have a little knowledge on what they-¦re doing.
5 - All this is subject to change and improvment.

What i do want to see is the items being made by players and a functional market. But cmon, we know it-¦s going to take a while to polish things.

EDIT:

Please name 5 aurum items that doesn-¦t have an ISK variant. with similar/superior stats.

There are more than 5 , all you need is to go to market and compare them.

NO SANE person would exchange AURUM items for ISK that he has from abundance 90% of them AURUM users because AURUM items are always better that ISK ones otherwise you wouldnt bought them with $$$.

Please name 5 aurum items that doesn-¦t have an ISK variant. with similar/superior stats.

I-¦m not familiar with all the snipers stats, but is the "Genesis" NT-511 outperformed by another Sniper rifle (any one) or is it the top one?

The Codewish Duvolle TAR
The Schizm repair tool
The Spitfire SMG
The Tether Shield regulator
My personal fave - The Abyss drop uplink (seriously, check out the stat difference on that one)

And let us not forget the the 3 Proto damage mods

Proof lies with the claimer.

Unless of course, it-¦s classical misdirection, and the whole purpose is to create confusion and spread misinformation, then it would be better not to use factual data.

for it's tier, it is the top one, i do believe. the only way to get a better isk one would be to boost your skills to where you can use proto gear. as far as raw damage per shot output, however, the charge sniper rifle takes the cake

Personally, I know there are two AUR damage mods (Sidearm and Heavy) which have better PG/CPU stats than the ISK equivalents - they're identical in every way except that they cost less to fit, meaning you can create a better suit by using them than you could without spending Aurum.

There are also the two Aurum HAVs, which have better PG/CPU capacity than their ISK equivalents on top of their reduced skill prerequisites. This, as with the damage mods, results in the potential for better fitting than you can achieve with the ISK version of the same vehicle.

While not AUR purchases, the same applies for the tanks in the "Tank Merc Pack" (I forgot the proper name, and am about to head to bed), which makes 6 items that I can confirm as P2W.

But there's a HUGE list of items that have previously had similar P2W implications, and those items have either been removed from the game or brought back in line with their ISK equivalents to be valid and fair, only allowing players early access to the next tier of gear.

CPP way of doing things is "give here, take there", so i always look at the whole picture instead of a few specific points. For example, a default vehicle, one with better speed but less armor/shiled/ehp, one with plenty of cpu/pg but slow as hell, and other variations.

An example

As i said, i-¦ll take a look later at the stats of the items mentioned to form an opinion, but usualy when people say an item is "unfair", there-¦s a better isk variant one that can outperform it, but need better skills. And that is not "unfair" nor p2w.

And again, CCP is compromised to review any unbalanced items, so if those items mentioned are in need of attention, send a mail to CCP informing the why-¦s of it in a informative way.

When you consider the differences between the AUR HAVs and Marauders, those can be argued as not P2W, but they're closer to it than most Dropsuit AUR gear.

You're getting a half-way point between the Gunnlogi/Madrugar and the Sagaris/Surya, but with Militia-level fitting requirements.

The damage mods though - they're flat broken. They literally have identical statlines to the best ISK damage mods, and also have lower fitting requirements with it. Those are the only items I'm 100% sure of being directly better than any gear you can buy with ISK, but I'm pretty sure there are others.

I'm also, as mentioned, pretty sure that CCP won't leave P2W items in the game, and have seen evidence of them fixing many such items previously.

East solution.

Make all Aur items sellable for isk on the market. Never make it sellable for AUR, never allow AUR to transfer.

Thank you for the hard data.

I will take a look at them, but in any case, let-¦s just remember that if some unbalance is happening, CCP will fix it.

The Codewish Duvolle TAR
The Schizm repair tool
The Spitfire SMG
The Tether Shield regulator
My personal fave - The Abyss drop uplink (seriously, check out the stat difference on that one)

And let us not forget the the 3 Proto damage mods

(The abyss has actually very few spawns in it - 5 iI think)

.
.
OP post
.
.

This hope has been proven false by the events.

Last week CCP added some new modules to the market place to go along with the rest of the collection of supremacy goods.

They added a new top tier codebreaker module with reduced fitting reqs, the 'Pathogen'
Also added was the ever popular and soon to be best seller, the Light Complex Damage Mod 'Cascade'
There was also a new Nanohive, I believe it is of the Ishukone Flux variety, although I cannot recall specifically what name it runs under.

So you have supremacy goods for all of the following:

Codebreaker
Damage Mods
Repair Tool
Nanohive
Shield Regulator
Tanks(although here the case is much more gray, as the PG/CPU difference is quite small relative to total vehicle output.)

With all of those options, you can certainly make a much better fit that with straight ISK gear. I think that falls most clearly under the P2W category. What is more troubling is that those three items at the top are new, they were not in the market last week. When I use to point to the damage mods as classic P2W, people used to say that the Light Weapon version got removed and they were sure the others were on their way out. Well, now CCP has brought back the light damage mod and more.

Now, yes, I understand that when we get a player market, then there won't really be any pay to win as long as people are willing to trade for those items.

My problem is that we are heading into Planetary Conquest with a complete set of supremacy goods, but no way to trade these items. It completely locks out players who won't or can't put money into the game, and ensures that those who are buying aurum are able, if they so choose, to buy a set of equipment that can outperform any ISK variant. Now, I am not saying that these goods are an auto-win button. But I think we can agree that if we were to take two players of equal skill and SP and put them in identical suits with only one having access to the Aurum supremacy goods, that the player with access to those goods should be able to put together a more combat capable fit.

I find it very problematic that we are going to go into the very first real battles and we are doing so with a two tiered player base.

I wouldn-¦t jump so fast into conclusions, for they have fixed unbalanced things before.

Nanohive:
Less PG/CPU, Less ressuply, less maximum carried.

Codebreaker:
Less CPU/PG, Same Bonus.

Damage Modifier
Less cpu/pg, same bonus.

Repair tool
Less CPU/PG, Less range, less repair rate.

Ok, from the items you mentioned, the nanohive and the repair tool aurum items suck big time, and the codebreaker and dmg modifier are less CPU/PG intensive, but give the same bonus.

On a high sp character, is this cpu/pg difference considerable to the point of not being able to fit, or is this noticable only to low sp people?

Because if i can fit the same fitting, and get the same bonus, and the difference between an aurum item or an isk one is just the difference between the cpu/pg of a lvl 4 skill and a lvl 5, then i think it-¦s quite complicated to call it p2w.

Trolls used the word P2W a bit carelessly there, let's see thru that.
If I understood correctly, his point is:


An AUR item is bought indirectly by real money.
It creates a new item.
Background: There will be AUR-to-isk ratio, determined by the PLEX price and PLEX-to-AUR conversion ratio.
Every AUR item will have a threshold value over which it is a 'best way to get isk' and also the price under which it doesn't make sense to sell with RL money to isk.
Those things mean they set the isk price of equivalent isk items as well on the free market - the value of isk item is very unlikely to get any higher.
That would mean the market on these items isn't that free - but in some sense free still, as everything is derived from PLEX price.


Please note that CCP has never revealed any intentions of players creating blueprints (normal copies) as sort of a manufacturing way.

.
.
OP post
.
.

The codebreaker and the light damage mod and the nanohive were put in this week. They are new P2W items, not old ones.

The Codewish Duvolle TAR
The Schizm repair tool
The Spitfire SMG
The Tether Shield regulator
My personal fave - The Abyss drop uplink (seriously, check out the stat difference on that one)

And let us not forget the the 3 Proto damage mods

Trolls, I think you had a valid point in the possibility of an indirect RL cash -> Clones trading chain.|

You accidentally posted a pay to win thread, though.

Plex and Aurum are there precisely to make it less atractive to use indirect rl cash to play Dust and EVE.

How do you mean?

Again, i fail to see where the p2w part is.

The items you mentioned are either crappier than the ISK variant ones, or they-¦rethe same stats, but less CPU/PG requirements, and those with a high sp character are not relevant, for they may fit the same fitting with the appropriate skills.

Oh, i was talking about RMT.

But at the Clone pack issue, what-¦s th epoint of spending a lot of real money to buy a lot of clones, if you won-¦t be able to store them all, or use them frequently or simultaniously? (Limited by time and personel factors)

Proof lies with the claimer.

Unless of course, it-¦s classical misdirection, and the whole purpose is to create confusion and spread misinformation, then it would be better not to use factual data.



No sane person would let a good commercial opportunity go when they see one. If i have the real cash, and i can convert it in a lot of ingame cash, why wouldn-¦t i?

Pay$10 to buy a thing that you won-¦t use, sell it for 100 hours of gameplay ingame cash. Depending on how much you make an hour in rl money, it-¦s quite a bargain.

I do not think you have actually thought this through to the end game. In order to use the P2W modules you need to be at the max skill level. So it creates fittings that are only possible with Aurum items equipped. I'll show you, and you can do the figuring out for yourself.

First, lets get you to the Dust Fitting Tool:

Dust Fitting Tool

Make a copy(in the file menu in Google docs), and then you can edit the doc and follow along with me. Top centre there is a drop down menu with the list of starter fits, scroll down and select ALL LVL 5.


So now you have max skills, lets have you be an anti tank killing machine. Select a heavy proto suit.

Now, you take your proto suit out, and you equip:

2 x Complex Armor Plate
1 x Locus Grenade
1 x Ishukone Assault Forge Gun
1 x Ishukone Assault Submachine Gun

Next, try and equip three complex damage mods.

Fitting invalid.

Now try and fit either three 'Seismic' Heavy Damage mods, and presto, it just fits.

So there you have a fitting that is only possible with aurum items.

Keep in mind this problem actually gets WORSE for the other stuff, because this particular fit can't even take advantage of the boost offered by the regulators, the hives, the rep tool, etc.

How about a VK 1 glass cannon fit:

4 x complex damage mods -23 cpu each
2 x complex regulators -11 cpu each

Just on those alone using the Aurum items saves you 114 CPU. That is enough to run proto needles and hives. And a really nice grenade.

That is with MAX skills. Those are very tangible benefits.

Clearly, those goods are of a higher quality to their ISK counter parts. They are only available for RL money, and as such are supremacy goods.

Now, even if you don't want to call that P2W, it is certainly accurate that it is a far more flexible option to take advantage of, almost regardless of fit.

So, I cannot be any more clear on how the status of things are right now.

Maybe these things will change in the next build, maybe they won't. All I know is that since I first took notice of this, there have been more of these types of goods added to the market. Interpret that how ever you like.

What this comes down to is semantics. Either you call it P2W, or you call them supremacy goods, it is all the same thing. A tiered playing field. One for real money players, one for freebies. And that is precisely what CCP said the game would not be.

Now, I encourage you to play around with these items on the dust fitting tool. Use the sidearm or heavy damage aurum mod if you need to substitute for the newly added light complex damage mod. See what types of Aurum only fits you can create with the skills you actually have. See how to make it work for you.

You should understand that the people you play against already know this stuff, they just don't want to share their preferred proto fits. These types of fits will be used against you in PC.

Ok this was a troll post but I'll point out the principle issue behing it that is not discussed here thoroughly.

Planet warfare is isk warfare. Clones can be bought with isk, infrastructure can be bought with isk. A p2w corp will have a huge advantage by having its players use aurum gear and donate the isk savings for expansion.

This is not an issue in EVE, because items are player made and aurum only buys game time or makeover. However, the aurum gear in dust essentially means that there can never be functional player manufactured industry, because it has to compete with p2w. This, to me, also means the two economies should never be linked because dust ISK is regulated by p2w while EVE isk is not.

I agree with the industry part, it would be good to see a player made economy soon.

But in EVE, you do make a "Convert PLEX/AURUM into ISK", it-¦s not only for vanity, time is sold for money and money buy ships. Either an alliance have a swarm of ratters, moongoo, or the good old Russian Aluminium magnate to buy plex and finance the alliance.

In the end, the ammount of money available is limited by the ammount of people available to use that money.

A rich alliance with 50 players and 1000 stocked ships will get screwed (probably) by a poor alliance with 500 players and 500 ships. People are always needed to make the warfare happen, and if things go EVE style here, the low-skilled / low-sp players in hordes will make a big impact on the high-skill / high-sp ones simply due to numeric advantage.

Money helps, but it-¦s not everything, social connections and teamwork > pimped stuff. (On the long run of course)

Thank you for the detailed examples, i-¦ll have a look at them and the fitting tool soon.

Usually people tend to complain only and not present proper information, so it-¦s hard to understand the issues without concrete data.

For example, just looking at the surface of the fitting you mentioned, i would probably remove the granade to make room for other things (After all, i-¦m already long range with the FG, people shouldn-¦t be near me), and perhaps a swap between the ASMG and a Scrambler Pistol would make more room too. (Again, just looking at the surface, got to play with the numbers later). If i remove the granade and swap for a pistol/another secondary, can i use the 3 regular dmg mods?

However, if it-¦s really the case of supreme fittings "army of one" with aurum only equip, then i completely agree that this is an unbalance and should be looked into. Reduced cpu/pg to make a confortable fitting shouldn-¦t be used to stick everything at a suit at once.

There are several variables being changed in May 6th (skills, probably item configs and such), and CCP do get their statistics done and are taking a look at possible imbalances, so i-¦ll play with the numbers now, and i hope anything way out of the bell curve is resolved in the next 2 weeks.

Again, thanks for the informative discussion.

I agree with the industry part, it would be good to see a player made economy soon.

But in EVE, you do make a "Convert PLEX/AURUM into ISK", it-¦s not only for vanity, time is sold for money and money buy ships. Either an alliance have a swarm of ratters, moongoo, or the good old Russian Aluminium magnate to buy plex and finance the alliance.

In the end, the ammount of money available is limited by the ammount of people available to use that money.

A rich alliance with 50 players and 1000 stocked ships will get screwed (probably) by a poor alliance with 500 players and 500 ships. People are always needed to make the warfare happen, and if things go EVE style here, the low-skilled / low-sp players in hordes will make a big impact on the high-skill / high-sp ones simply due to numeric advantage.

Money helps, but it-¦s not everything, social connections and teamwork > pimped stuff. (On the long run of course)

1 - All this is subject to change and improvement
2 - Right now, items are not built by anyone, they-¦re just bought out of thin air. Be it by isk, be it by aurum.
3 - Those who buy thing with aurum will sell them for isk, we-¦ll have a "Lords of War" group that will supply all sides, as long as they pay the price (The expensive one).
4 - They have a guy with PhD in Economy, i think they have a little knowledge on what they-¦re doing.
5 - All this is subject to change and improvment.

What i do want to see is the items being made by players and a functional market. But cmon, we know it-¦s going to take a while to polish things.

EDIT:

Please name 5 aurum items that doesn-¦t have an ISK variant. with similar/superior stats.

However, in EVE no ships or modules are injected in the economy when someone pays aurum for them. They are all made by players, not competing against influx of aurum items. This is why it works.

People who want ISK, can sell these AUR items and people who want these P2W AUR items can buy them for ISK.

IF someone buys 4 plexes in Eve, he can buy a carrier and fit it (not mentioning if he can fly it) but he could defo buy one, where the person playing without plexes @ 10m an hour mining takes 200 hours to get one.

They both can get one, the Plex guy when his blows up, just forks out another 80$ while the miner goes back to mining for half a month.

Eventually modules & suits will most likely be build by players, that just leaves out the AUR items, but even then people who want isk and got enough $ will sell these.

People who want ISK, can sell these AUR items and people who want these P2W AUR items can buy them for ISK.

Eve industrialist doesn't compete against AURUM gear putting soft ISK caps on stuff.
Dust industrialist or marketeer will have to consider the AURUM equivalents in his pricing.

Eve miner gets half a month of meaningfulness.
Dust grinder watches the customer go to the AURUM shop.

Making AURUM items low end, standard variant level, would help a bit but the issue would still be there. Proto AURUM items are not sustainable at all. Their presence sheds to me some light in CCP's 10 year plan: dust is not looking to have a serious economy. Dust and EVE economies are not there to be really linked, unless it's a grand "cash it and dump it" decision.

It will get there eventually, meanwhile ccp has to make money on this game if you like it or not.

Saying it will get there eventually is you admitting that it is unbalanced now right? Just making sure we are on the same page.

I have no problem with CCP making money. I do have a very big problem with them saying for over a year that the game was not going to be P2W and poof, here we are with a batch of supremacy goods on the market.

Don't worry, I use these items all the time on an alt i have for getting under peoples skin. Viziam, stacked regs and damage mods, with pimped out hives and needles. Haven't even lost one yet, played close to twenty matches in them so far.

I bought a batch of the 'cascade' LCDMs just because I could, and they are very handy for making much better advanced suit fittings.

The impact of you running 4 damage mods that costs less CPU, in the grand sheme of things is a minor concern of mine, but i do admit that it would be overall a better game practice if it were all cosmetic / low level stuff.

I-¦m not even discussing the hability for the aurum items to be sold in the future when market kicks in, because after all, if people decide to gather to put up a cartel and control the selling of aurum items, it would be "unfair".

I just wanted to know if the items mentioned were that discrepant, and from what i-¦ve seen so far, they-¦re not.

Less PG/CPU only matters for low skilled people, and the bonuses of the items are either equal or inferior to ISK variant ones.

From the list above, the codewish is not P2W , don't think the spitfire is either. Both are just proficiency 1 guns that you can Aurum purchase at operations 5, like the Guristas Assault Forge.

But the items I listed are all supremacy goods, or P2W.

Again, i fail to see where the p2w part is.

The items you mentioned are either crappier than the ISK variant ones, or they-¦rethe same stats, but less CPU/PG requirements, and those with a high sp character are not relevant, for they may fit the same fitting with the appropriate skills.

None of these have an isk equivalent, that claim is simply false. The lower CPU requirements is a massive difference. I could get a Viziam on a VK.1 logi, with 4 dmg mods, and maybe as much as 750hp thanks to the lower requirements of the aurum dmg mods. With isk, i'd probably have to ditch 1 or 2 of the armour plates for the sake of capacity upgrades. You can't seriously suggest that doesn't give aurum fittings a major advantage.

As you train the fitting skills that reduce your fitting costs on the AR, you reduce both PG and CPU by a total of 25%.

This brings the ISK Proto AR down to 75/15, but the Aurum variant has fixed fitting values, so it remains at the same level.

Not only can you get it with the lower skill prerequisites, but you can fit it like you've got even more SP invested into your fitting-related skills.

When open market finally arrives, we will hop in excitement on it just to find the game funded and ran by Russian oligarchs from that point onwards.

Paying cash for gear makes it impossible to create an economy parallel to that of EVE online. How would that game play, if nullsec pilots could just replace their battleship with NPC injected aurum ones? Dust PC at its core is no different. It's a game of isk ultimately. Using p2w gear will buy your alliance clone packs and infrastructure upgrades. That gear is not player made; it just pops out of thin air.

I conclude thus, that due to this choise, dust economy will remain limited and shallow. Economic warfare will be largely aurum based. To simplify it and make the ground even, I suggest bringing out the last word in PC: Genolution 'P-2W' clone pack, at 40000 AUR (25% discount).

Your whole argument here is basically that an eve pilot can't replace their ships with an aur one or in effect buy a new one using only real money and that since someone can buy gear in dust for aur (using real money) that is pay to win for dust but not eve .

You are completely incorrect. I today can buy a plex in eve using real money no different than buying aur and I then can convert that plex into ISK (going rate is about 500 mill ISK for that plex I paid real money for). So other than the extra step of converting the plex to isk (which takes a couple minutes) I am not seeing ANY difference to a player paying real money for aurum for gear in dust.

You say nullsec pilots can't replace their ships using real money yet it happens every day Not just with ships but also there are plenty of modules and equipment etc in eve that is not player manufactured. Yes there are also ships that are not player manufactured in eve even if very few but they do exist and have been many things over the years that are/were npc manufactured. The eve economy has not suffered because of this no different than the dust economy will not suffer either once we do have a open market in dust.

Your argument only holds true if we don't get the dust market or at minimum the ability to trade items. Player trade alone is enough to balance things. Once we have that dust market or trade there is in effect no tangible difference for dust aur items and eve plex converted to isk.

Your argument only holds true if we don't get the dust market or at minimum the ability to trade items. Player trade alone is enough to balance things (dust player trade is supposed to come with may 6th expansion as well as taxed transfers of isk from eve to dust). Once we have that dust market or trade there is in effect no tangible difference for dust aur items and eve plex converted to isk.

Eventually all aurum items will be available for ISK dependent on who is personally selling them. Since CCP intends for things to be player made and sold as well as offering aurum options, there will always be people who sell aurum things for ISK and thus Aurum gear actually adds to the depth of the market while also acting as a price guide that can help prevent the inflation of non aurum based gear.

First, there has been no confirmation on player trading. Same for eve to dust transfers. So post a source or don't rumor monger.

Secondly, the whole point of your argument seems to be that Eve is P2W as well. I don't see how this adds to the debate regarding Dust being P2W.

Adding that AUR Light Damage Mod is a crap move by CCP and I really can't believe it was intentional. I mean that I'm assuming it was but it really surprises me they would do that. Removing the P2W argument entirely you have an item that is superior to anything that can be made by players (when we can actually do that, anyway) and can only be bought with real money but can be sold for ISK. Absolutely nothing good can come from that and it absolutely destroys what I thought EVE/DUST was all about. Holy hell I hope that was a mistake because if not CCP got real stupid real fast.

Should add the short version:
P2W argument is mostly whining but has some valid points. Items that are superior to anything a player could make and can only be created with a real money transaction is a cluster**** of epic proportions.

seriously?!? did no one notice the OP's name?

What if they can sell their AUR items to gain ISK? I can gain ISK just by standing in the MCC, all that just means is that people with money get have to grind less... a lot less. Aurum: do more faster

When open market finally arrives, we will hop in excitement on it just to find the game funded and ran by Russian oligarchs from that point onwards.

Paying cash for gear makes it impossible to create an economy parallel to that of EVE online. How would that game play, if nullsec pilots could just replace their battleship with NPC injected aurum ones? Dust PC at its core is no different. It's a game of isk ultimately. Using p2w gear will buy your alliance clone packs and infrastructure upgrades. That gear is not player made; it just pops out of thin air.

I conclude thus, that due to this choise, dust economy will remain limited and shallow. Economic warfare will be largely aurum based. To simplify it and make the ground even, I suggest bringing out the last word in PC: Genolution 'P-2W' clone pack, at 40000 AUR (25% discount).

WHERE did you read that people could pay money for a clone pack? Not that it really makes a difference though. Think about it dude, ANYTHING people could buy with RL money, they could sell it for ISK. That's your supply/ demand thing buddy. The supply of AUR gear will come from people who buy it, the demand for it will come from people who want to buy it off the people who spent the RL money. Naturally AUR gear will be much more expensive then their ISK counter part but that's fine because AUR gear generally has a benefits over its ISK variation.

This system is also used in EVE with the whole PLEX system. People spend 20$ to buy 1 PLEX (a 30 day player subscription) that they then sell in game for over 600 million isk per unit. Sure PLEX isn't exactly the same as AUR bought gear, but at the end of the day, EVERYTHING AUR bought is bought well..... with Aurum. Which will almost certainly have an exchange rate with ISK. But really all of this doesn't matter anyway because NONE OF US have any clue how CCP is going to do things to begin with.

On number three, personally i consider p2w the items that can-¦t be adquired other than purchasing with real life money, and that the stats are disproportional to the conventional items, so that a player that spends a lot of time at the game, will never be able to have the same gear that a paying person has.

That-¦s definetly not the case here.

I still haven-¦t played with all the numbers at the fitting tool, but even with the less CPU/PG, and even if a person can stick a lot of stuff in one suit, i still don-¦t think that-¦s toooo overpower, cause after all, the person can only use one thing at a time.

No matter how you twist and turn words and definitions, AUR items with fewer skill requirements give an unfair advantage to those with rl money to burn on Dust. We need to fight and question their existence and demand their deletion, otherwise slippery slope will lead to a P2W game.

All i-¦m asking is How is this an advantage.

I can-¦t stick several main weapons on my suit to be a "Sniper-Swarmlaunching-Assault-Logi", i-¦m not aware of "oneshotkillthemall" fitting with aur equip (or an isk one), so if you have a very unfair, unbalanced, awesome fitting that can be made only with aurum items, i-¦ll believe in P2w, otherwise, i-¦ll just see this as whinning.

Previous posters made specific claims about specific items. Yes, the CPU/PG is greatly reduced, but this only counts when you stack those items in a fitting, so it-¦s not that the "items" are overpowered (the stats are equal/worst than isk one), but (maybe, still need evidence) their grouping in a fitting.

Do you have a fitting that is aur only and outperforms isk ones ?

I do not think you have actually thought this through to the end game. In order to use the P2W modules you need to be at the max skill level. So it creates fittings that are only possible with Aurum items equipped. I'll show you, and you can do the figuring out for yourself.

First, lets get you to the Dust Fitting Tool:

Dust Fitting Tool

Make a copy(in the file menu in Google docs), and then you can edit the doc and follow along with me. Top centre there is a drop down menu with the list of starter fits, scroll down and select ALL LVL 5.


So now you have max skills, lets have you be an anti tank killing machine. Select a heavy proto suit.

Now, you take your proto suit out, and you equip:

2 x Complex Armor Plate
1 x Locus Grenade
1 x Ishukone Assault Forge Gun
1 x Ishukone Assault Submachine Gun

Next, try and equip three complex damage mods.

Fitting invalid.

Now try and fit either three 'Seismic' Heavy Damage mods, and presto, it just fits.

So there you have a fitting that is only possible with aurum items.

Keep in mind this problem actually gets WORSE for the other stuff, because this particular fit can't even take advantage of the boost offered by the regulators, the hives, the rep tool, etc.

How about a VK 1 glass cannon fit:

4 x complex damage mods -23 cpu each
2 x complex regulators -11 cpu each

Just on those alone using the Aurum items saves you 114 CPU. That is enough to run proto needles and hives. And a really nice grenade.

That is with MAX skills. Those are very tangible benefits.

Clearly, those goods are of a higher quality to their ISK counter parts. They are only available for RL money, and as such are supremacy goods.

Now, even if you don't want to call that P2W, it is certainly accurate that it is a far more flexible option to take advantage of, almost regardless of fit.

So, I cannot be any more clear on how the status of things are right now.

Maybe these things will change in the next build, maybe they won't. All I know is that since I first took notice of this, there have been more of these types of goods added to the market. Interpret that how ever you like.

What this comes down to is semantics. Either you call it P2W, or you call them supremacy goods, it is all the same thing. A tiered playing field. One for real money players, one for freebies. And that is precisely what CCP said the game would not be.

Now, I encourage you to play around with these items on the dust fitting tool. Use the sidearm or heavy damage aurum mod if you need to substitute for the newly added light complex damage mod. See what types of Aurum only fits you can create with the skills you actually have. See how to make it work for you.

You should understand that the people you play against already know this stuff, they just don't want to share their preferred proto fits. These types of fits will be used against you in PC.

CCP confirmed on the reddit AMA that player trading will not be in Uprising. Link. So saying this will be fixed by the player market will not be true for PC.

It may happen down the line but then we are dealing in hypotheticals. and AUR gear with better fitting ability than any ISK gear is something that is available on the market now, not "Soon TM".

East solution.

Make all Aur items sellable for isk on the market. Never make it sellable for AUR, never allow AUR to transfer.

http://www.reddit.com/r/dust514/comments/1ckz34/dust_514_developer_ama/c9him6w

I don-¦t have a reddit account and i don-¦t know how to use it, but the points of this topic could very well be sent there, after all, they-¦re watching and replying.

Yes, I was the one who asked that question (look at the flair next to the username). I was just trying to put it in a slightly simpler question format instead of dragging in 5 pages of discussion.

Yes, the player driven economy will fix this. Are officer weapons p2w? The idea that the economy is broken is totally correct. Economies live off of supply and demand and we have infinite supply and regular demand. The economy is broken because there is only an illusion that there is an economy, when the market is player driven it will all be fixed. Will DUST mercs be able to buy plex to sell to pilots? Is that p2w? Aur stuff is junk and we know it. Top players don't need it and scrubs waste their money. It does not hurt me at all, just like AFK warriors.

http://www.reddit.com/r/dust514/comments/1ckz34/dust_514_developer_ama/c9him6w

I don-¦t have a reddit account and i don-¦t know how to use it, but the points of this topic could very well be sent there, after all, they-¦re watching and replying.