DUST Search - p2w equipment does not fit a supply-demand economy

Marston VC wrote:

trollsroyce wrote:

When open market finally arrives, we will hop in excitement on it just to find the game funded and ran by Russian oligarchs from that point onwards.

Paying cash for gear makes it impossible to create an economy parallel to that of EVE online. How would that game play, if nullsec pilots could just replace their battleship with NPC injected aurum ones? Dust PC at its core is no different. It's a game of isk ultimately. Using p2w gear will buy your alliance clone packs and infrastructure upgrades. That gear is not player made; it just pops out of thin air.

I conclude thus, that due to this choise, dust economy will remain limited and shallow. Economic warfare will be largely aurum based. To simplify it and make the ground even, I suggest bringing out the last word in PC: Genolution 'P-2W' clone pack, at 40000 AUR (25% discount).

WHERE did you read that people could pay money for a clone pack? Not that it really makes a difference though. Think about it dude, ANYTHING people could buy with RL money, they could sell it for ISK. That's your supply/ demand thing buddy. The supply of AUR gear will come from people who buy it, the demand for it will come from people who want to buy it off the people who spent the RL money. Naturally AUR gear will be much more expensive then their ISK counter part but that's fine because AUR gear generally has a benefits over its ISK variation.

This system is also used in EVE with the whole PLEX system. People spend 20$ to buy 1 PLEX (a 30 day player subscription) that they then sell in game for over 600 million isk per unit. Sure PLEX isn't exactly the same as AUR bought gear, but at the end of the day, EVERYTHING AUR bought is bought well..... with Aurum. Which will almost certainly have an exchange rate with ISK. But really all of this doesn't matter anyway because NONE OF US have any clue how CCP is going to do things to begin with.


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Altina McAlterson Not Guilty EoN. 466	Posted - 2013.04.18 19:01:00 - [1] - Quote GeneralButtNaked wrote: charlesnette dalari wrote: Your argument only holds true if we don't get the dust market or at minimum the ability to trade items. Player trade alone is enough to balance things (dust player trade is supposed to come with may 6th expansion as well as taxed transfers of isk from eve to dust). Once we have that dust market or trade there is in effect no tangible difference for dust aur items and eve plex converted to isk. First, there has been no confirmation on player trading. Same for eve to dust transfers. So post a source or don't rumor monger. Secondly, the whole point of your argument seems to be that Eve is P2W as well. I don't see how this adds to the debate regarding Dust being P2W. I'm also going to agree with you that at this current time these AUR items give an advantage because there is no secondary market. However, the market is the solution to that. So there's not really anything that CCP is going to do now because they are working on a solution. One of the DEVs in the IRC said it's "mostly done" but they are having some issues with the UI. Since the market is the biggest part of EVE they can't take any chances with it so I'll give them that. But until the market is ready there's really nothing that can be done about AUR items so I still don't understand what everyone is so upset about. And to address player trading and EVE/DUST transfers those are definitely *not* coming on May 6th. CCPFoxFour (I think) confirmed the bad news in a thread or the IRC or somewhere. Doesn't matter because it's not going to happen. Adding that AUR Light Damage Mod is a crap move by CCP and I really can't believe it was intentional. I mean that I'm assuming it was but it really surprises me they would do that. Removing the P2W argument entirely you have an item that is superior to anything that can be made by players (when we can actually do that, anyway) and can only be bought with real money but can be sold for ISK. Absolutely nothing good can come from that and it absolutely destroys what I thought EVE/DUST was all about. Holy hell I hope that was a mistake because if not CCP got real stupid real fast. Should add the short version: P2W argument is mostly whining but has some valid points. Items that are superior to anything a player could make and can only be created with a real money transaction is a cluster**** of epic proportions.
Altina McAlterson Not Guilty EoN. 467	Posted - 2013.04.18 19:57:00 - [2] - Quote Lord-of-the-Dreadfort wrote: seriously?!? did no one notice the OP's name? Has nothing to do with what other people have said. Sloth9230 wrote: What if they can sell their AUR items to gain ISK? I can gain ISK just by standing in the MCC, all that just means is that people with money get have to grind less... a lot less. Aurum: do more faster No, the issue is that the item is generated spontaneously only when someone spends real money and it is superior to any item that a player could make. In a game where a large part of the focus is on controlling resources required for manufacturing it is a big deal. Standing in the MCC to generate ISK is honestly not related in the slightest but I see what you were getting at.
Altina McAlterson Not Guilty EoN. 468	Posted - 2013.04.18 21:31:00 - [3] - Quote Marston VC wrote: trollsroyce wrote: When open market finally arrives, we will hop in excitement on it just to find the game funded and ran by Russian oligarchs from that point onwards. Paying cash for gear makes it impossible to create an economy parallel to that of EVE online. How would that game play, if nullsec pilots could just replace their battleship with NPC injected aurum ones? Dust PC at its core is no different. It's a game of isk ultimately. Using p2w gear will buy your alliance clone packs and infrastructure upgrades. That gear is not player made; it just pops out of thin air. I conclude thus, that due to this choise, dust economy will remain limited and shallow. Economic warfare will be largely aurum based. To simplify it and make the ground even, I suggest bringing out the last word in PC: Genolution 'P-2W' clone pack, at 40000 AUR (25% discount). WHERE did you read that people could pay money for a clone pack? Not that it really makes a difference though. Think about it dude, ANYTHING people could buy with RL money, they could sell it for ISK. That's your supply/ demand thing buddy. The supply of AUR gear will come from people who buy it, the demand for it will come from people who want to buy it off the people who spent the RL money. Naturally AUR gear will be much more expensive then their ISK counter part but that's fine because AUR gear generally has a benefits over its ISK variation. This system is also used in EVE with the whole PLEX system. People spend 20$ to buy 1 PLEX (a 30 day player subscription) that they then sell in game for over 600 million isk per unit. Sure PLEX isn't exactly the same as AUR bought gear, but at the end of the day, EVERYTHING AUR bought is bought well..... with Aurum. Which will almost certainly have an exchange rate with ISK. But really all of this doesn't matter anyway because NONE OF US have any clue how CCP is going to do things to begin with. True, it is all speculation. Although I feel fairly confident that there won't be any actual exchange rate. The market will set the ISK value of AUR the same way it does with PLEX. Because even though it's mostly fake money EVE does have the world's largest true free market economy so CCP should continue making the effort to "set" as little as possible. And honestly I don't think the AUR items are going to be insanely expensive compared to their ISK variants because of the relatively low AUR cost of the items. Just like T1 items in EVE most of the profit will come from volume, not markup. They're only going to be as expensive as people are willing to pay. That's why those damage mods etc... that don't have an ISK equivalent would be such a huge issue. But again, that's all just speculation on my part.
Altina McAlterson Not Guilty EoN. 474	Posted - 2013.04.19 15:48:00 - [4] - Quote Spacetits CDXX wrote: CCP confirmed on the reddit AMA that player trading will not be in Uprising. Link. So saying this will be fixed by the player market will not be true for PC. It may happen down the line but then we are dealing in hypotheticals. and AUR gear with better fitting ability than any ISK gear is something that is available on the market now, not "Soon TM". The market and player trading are not "hypotheticals". There are no bad guys in EVE, no end boss and no main villain. The goal of the game is money and power. Since almost every single thing a player uses in the game, from shuttles to space stations, was manufactured by someone else using resources they gathered the control of those resources is what the game is all about. Those resources are what we are being paid to capture and defend. Long story short, the market and player trading in the game won't be just a way to get rid of extra loot. It's pretty much what drives the game. So it is going to happen. Just a question of when. CCP has a responsibility to all the EVE players to get it right and not destroy the game when they integrate DUST in to EVE. So be patient. All that being said I still want someone to tell me exactly what the problem is. Right now at this moment you can't buy AUR items with ISK. Everyone knows that, it sucks but what are you going to do about it? All these items are going to be available on the market for ISK so what is the debate about P2W? And if AUR items do currently give an unfair advantage so what? It won't always be like that. So what's the debate? Only problem I see is AUR items being superior to ISK items would be an economic disaster.
Altina McAlterson Not Guilty EoN. 476	Posted - 2013.04.20 15:51:00 - [5] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: East solution. Make all Aur items sellable for isk on the market. Never make it sellable for AUR, never allow AUR to transfer. Yes, the player driven economy will fix this. Are officer weapons p2w? The idea that the economy is broken is totally correct. Economies live off of supply and demand and we have infinite supply and regular demand. The economy is broken because there is only an illusion that there is an economy, when the market is player driven it will all be fixed. Will DUST mercs be able to buy plex to sell to pilots? Is that p2w? Aur stuff is junk and we know it. Top players don't need it and scrubs waste their money. It does not hurt me at all, just like AFK warriors. Except with these new items that don't have ISK versions. They have no place in the economy and they need to go away.