DUST Search - p2w equipment does not fit a supply-demand economy

Natu Nobilis wrote:

GeneralButtNaked wrote:

Natu Nobilis wrote:

Thank you for the hard data.

I will take a look at them, but in any case, let-¦s just remember that if some unbalance is happening, CCP will fix it.

This hope has been proven false by the events.

Last week CCP added some new modules to the market place to go along with the rest of the collection of supremacy goods.

They added a new top tier codebreaker module with reduced fitting reqs, the 'Pathogen'
Also added was the ever popular and soon to be best seller, the Light Complex Damage Mod 'Cascade'
There was also a new Nanohive, I believe it is of the Ishukone Flux variety, although I cannot recall specifically what name it runs under.

So you have supremacy goods for all of the following:

Codebreaker
Damage Mods
Repair Tool
Nanohive
Shield Regulator
Tanks(although here the case is much more gray, as the PG/CPU difference is quite small relative to total vehicle output.)

With all of those options, you can certainly make a much better fit that with straight ISK gear. I think that falls most clearly under the P2W category. What is more troubling is that those three items at the top are new, they were not in the market last week. When I use to point to the damage mods as classic P2W, people used to say that the Light Weapon version got removed and they were sure the others were on their way out. Well, now CCP has brought back the light damage mod and more.

Now, yes, I understand that when we get a player market, then there won't really be any pay to win as long as people are willing to trade for those items.

My problem is that we are heading into Planetary Conquest with a complete set of supremacy goods, but no way to trade these items. It completely locks out players who won't or can't put money into the game, and ensures that those who are buying aurum are able, if they so choose, to buy a set of equipment that can outperform any ISK variant. Now, I am not saying that these goods are an auto-win button. But I think we can agree that if we were to take two players of equal skill and SP and put them in identical suits with only one having access to the Aurum supremacy goods, that the player with access to those goods should be able to put together a more combat capable fit.

I find it very problematic that we are going to go into the very first real battles and we are doing so with a two tiered player base.

I wouldn-¦t jump so fast into conclusions, for they have fixed unbalanced things before.

Nanohive:
Less PG/CPU, Less ressuply, less maximum carried.

Codebreaker:
Less CPU/PG, Same Bonus.

Damage Modifier
Less cpu/pg, same bonus.

Repair tool
Less CPU/PG, Less range, less repair rate.

Ok, from the items you mentioned, the nanohive and the repair tool aurum items suck big time, and the codebreaker and dmg modifier are less CPU/PG intensive, but give the same bonus.

On a high sp character, is this cpu/pg difference considerable to the point of not being able to fit, or is this noticable only to low sp people?

Because if i can fit the same fitting, and get the same bonus, and the difference between an aurum item or an isk one is just the difference between the cpu/pg of a lvl 4 skill and a lvl 5, then i think it-¦s quite complicated to call it p2w.


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GeneralButtNaked ZionTCD Legacy Rising 300	Posted - 2013.04.15 00:04:00 - [1] - Quote Natu Nobilis wrote: Thank you for the hard data. I will take a look at them, but in any case, let-¦s just remember that if some unbalance is happening, CCP will fix it. This hope has been proven false by the events. Last week CCP added some new modules to the market place to go along with the rest of the collection of supremacy goods. They added a new top tier codebreaker module with reduced fitting reqs, the 'Pathogen' Also added was the ever popular and soon to be best seller, the Light Complex Damage Mod 'Cascade' There was also a new Nanohive, I believe it is of the Ishukone Flux variety, although I cannot recall specifically what name it runs under. So you have supremacy goods for all of the following: Codebreaker Damage Mods Repair Tool Nanohive Shield Regulator Tanks(although here the case is much more gray, as the PG/CPU difference is quite small relative to total vehicle output.) With all of those options, you can certainly make a much better fit that with straight ISK gear. I think that falls most clearly under the P2W category. What is more troubling is that those three items at the top are new, they were not in the market last week. When I use to point to the damage mods as classic P2W, people used to say that the Light Weapon version got removed and they were sure the others were on their way out. Well, now CCP has brought back the light damage mod and more. Now, yes, I understand that when we get a player market, then there won't really be any pay to win as long as people are willing to trade for those items. My problem is that we are heading into Planetary Conquest with a complete set of supremacy goods, but no way to trade these items. It completely locks out players who won't or can't put money into the game, and ensures that those who are buying aurum are able, if they so choose, to buy a set of equipment that can outperform any ISK variant. Now, I am not saying that these goods are an auto-win button. But I think we can agree that if we were to take two players of equal skill and SP and put them in identical suits with only one having access to the Aurum supremacy goods, that the player with access to those goods should be able to put together a more combat capable fit. I find it very problematic that we are going to go into the very first real battles and we are doing so with a two tiered player base.
GeneralButtNaked ZionTCD Legacy Rising 300	Posted - 2013.04.15 01:11:00 - [2] - Quote KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: Chunky Munkey wrote: The Codewish Duvolle TAR The Schizm repair tool The Spitfire SMG The Tether Shield regulator My personal fave - The Abyss drop uplink (seriously, check out the stat difference on that one) And let us not forget the the 3 Proto damage mods (The abyss has actually very few spawns in it - 5 iI think) From the list above, the codewish is not P2W , don't think the spitfire is either. Both are just proficiency 1 guns that you can Aurum purchase at operations 5, like the Guristas Assault Forge. But the items I listed are all supremacy goods, or P2W.
GeneralButtNaked ZionTCD Legacy Rising 300	Posted - 2013.04.15 01:25:00 - [3] - Quote deleted see below
GeneralButtNaked ZionTCD Legacy Rising 300	Posted - 2013.04.15 01:25:00 - [4] - Quote Natu Nobilis wrote: GeneralButtNaked wrote: Natu Nobilis wrote: Thank you for the hard data. I will take a look at them, but in any case, let-¦s just remember that if some unbalance is happening, CCP will fix it. This hope has been proven false by the events. Last week CCP added some new modules to the market place to go along with the rest of the collection of supremacy goods. They added a new top tier codebreaker module with reduced fitting reqs, the 'Pathogen' Also added was the ever popular and soon to be best seller, the Light Complex Damage Mod 'Cascade' There was also a new Nanohive, I believe it is of the Ishukone Flux variety, although I cannot recall specifically what name it runs under. So you have supremacy goods for all of the following: Codebreaker Damage Mods Repair Tool Nanohive Shield Regulator Tanks(although here the case is much more gray, as the PG/CPU difference is quite small relative to total vehicle output.) With all of those options, you can certainly make a much better fit that with straight ISK gear. I think that falls most clearly under the P2W category. What is more troubling is that those three items at the top are new, they were not in the market last week. When I use to point to the damage mods as classic P2W, people used to say that the Light Weapon version got removed and they were sure the others were on their way out. Well, now CCP has brought back the light damage mod and more. Now, yes, I understand that when we get a player market, then there won't really be any pay to win as long as people are willing to trade for those items. My problem is that we are heading into Planetary Conquest with a complete set of supremacy goods, but no way to trade these items. It completely locks out players who won't or can't put money into the game, and ensures that those who are buying aurum are able, if they so choose, to buy a set of equipment that can outperform any ISK variant. Now, I am not saying that these goods are an auto-win button. But I think we can agree that if we were to take two players of equal skill and SP and put them in identical suits with only one having access to the Aurum supremacy goods, that the player with access to those goods should be able to put together a more combat capable fit. I find it very problematic that we are going to go into the very first real battles and we are doing so with a two tiered player base. I wouldn-¦t jump so fast into conclusions, for they have fixed unbalanced things before. Nanohive: Less PG/CPU, Less ressuply, less maximum carried. Codebreaker: Less CPU/PG, Same Bonus. Damage Modifier Less cpu/pg, same bonus. Repair tool Less CPU/PG, Less range, less repair rate. Ok, from the items you mentioned, the nanohive and the repair tool aurum items suck big time, and the codebreaker and dmg modifier are less CPU/PG intensive, but give the same bonus. On a high sp character, is this cpu/pg difference considerable to the point of not being able to fit, or is this noticable only to low sp people? Because if i can fit the same fitting, and get the same bonus, and the difference between an aurum item or an isk one is just the difference between the cpu/pg of a lvl 4 skill and a lvl 5, then i think it-¦s quite complicated to call it p2w. The codebreaker and the light damage mod and the nanohive were put in this week. They are new P2W items, not old ones.
GeneralButtNaked ZionTCD Legacy Rising 302	Posted - 2013.04.15 03:08:00 - [5] - Quote Natu Nobilis wrote: Again, i fail to see where the p2w part is. The items you mentioned are either crappier than the ISK variant ones, or they-¦rethe same stats, but less CPU/PG requirements, and those with a high sp character are not relevant, for they may fit the same fitting with the appropriate skills. I do not think you have actually thought this through to the end game. In order to use the P2W modules you need to be at the max skill level. So it creates fittings that are only possible with Aurum items equipped. I'll show you, and you can do the figuring out for yourself. First, lets get you to the Dust Fitting Tool: Dust Fitting Tool Make a copy(in the file menu in Google docs), and then you can edit the doc and follow along with me. Top centre there is a drop down menu with the list of starter fits, scroll down and select ALL LVL 5. So now you have max skills, lets have you be an anti tank killing machine. Select a heavy proto suit. Now, you take your proto suit out, and you equip: 2 x Complex Armor Plate 1 x Locus Grenade 1 x Ishukone Assault Forge Gun 1 x Ishukone Assault Submachine Gun Next, try and equip three complex damage mods. Fitting invalid. Now try and fit either three 'Seismic' Heavy Damage mods, and presto, it just fits. So there you have a fitting that is only possible with aurum items. Keep in mind this problem actually gets WORSE for the other stuff, because this particular fit can't even take advantage of the boost offered by the regulators, the hives, the rep tool, etc. How about a VK 1 glass cannon fit: 4 x complex damage mods -23 cpu each 2 x complex regulators -11 cpu each Just on those alone using the Aurum items saves you 114 CPU. That is enough to run proto needles and hives. And a really nice grenade. That is with MAX skills. Those are very tangible benefits. Clearly, those goods are of a higher quality to their ISK counter parts. They are only available for RL money, and as such are supremacy goods. Now, even if you don't want to call that P2W, it is certainly accurate that it is a far more flexible option to take advantage of, almost regardless of fit. So, I cannot be any more clear on how the status of things are right now. Maybe these things will change in the next build, maybe they won't. All I know is that since I first took notice of this, there have been more of these types of goods added to the market. Interpret that how ever you like. What this comes down to is semantics. Either you call it P2W, or you call them supremacy goods, it is all the same thing. A tiered playing field. One for real money players, one for freebies. And that is precisely what CCP said the game would not be. Now, I encourage you to play around with these items on the dust fitting tool. Use the sidearm or heavy damage aurum mod if you need to substitute for the newly added light complex damage mod. See what types of Aurum only fits you can create with the skills you actually have. See how to make it work for you. You should understand that the people you play against already know this stuff, they just don't want to share their preferred proto fits. These types of fits will be used against you in PC.
GeneralButtNaked ZionTCD Legacy Rising 306	Posted - 2013.04.15 12:01:00 - [6] - Quote Natu Nobilis wrote: Thank you for the detailed examples, i-¦ll have a look at them and the fitting tool soon. Usually people tend to complain only and not present proper information, so it-¦s hard to understand the issues without concrete data. This had been a curiousity that at first I thought was an oversight, but now I am not so sure, and I think the community needs to be aware that these items are there, and these types of fittings will be getting played during the opening salvos of PC. Natu Nobilis wrote: For example, just looking at the surface of the fitting you mentioned, i would probably remove the granade to make room for other things (After all, i-¦m already long range with the FG, people shouldn-¦t be near me), and perhaps a swap between the ASMG and a Scrambler Pistol would make more room too. (Again, just looking at the surface, got to play with the numbers later). If i remove the granade and swap for a pistol/another secondary, can i use the 3 regular dmg mods? However, if it-¦s really the case of supreme fittings "army of one" with aurum only equip, then i completely agree that this is an unbalance and should be looked into. Reduced cpu/pg to make a confortable fitting shouldn-¦t be used to stick everything at a suit at once. I do not want you to think that I am calling it an auto win button. I do not think it is. However, I think we can agree that for example, a squad of proto assaults stacking damage mods, armor, and repping nanohives and 80% injectors with their duvolles or balacs is going to be a very big threat for any team to deal with. Natu Nobilis wrote: There are several variables being changed in May 6th (skills, probably item configs and such), and CCP do get their statistics done and are taking a look at possible imbalances, so i-¦ll play with the numbers now, and i hope anything way out of the bell curve is resolved in the next 2 weeks. Again, thanks for the informative discussion. On this, I really have to hope that CCP has something up their sleeve with regards to these items, their application, or even some stealth player gifting feature(I can dream!) getting squeezed into the next build. However, given that more of these items have shown up since I started to notice their presence, I am not that hopeful. This will have an effect on PC when it launches. How much remains to be seen, but I am definitely concerned.
GeneralButtNaked ZionTCD Legacy Rising 306	Posted - 2013.04.15 12:08:00 - [7] - Quote Natu Nobilis wrote: I agree with the industry part, it would be good to see a player made economy soon. But in EVE, you do make a "Convert PLEX/AURUM into ISK", it-¦s not only for vanity, time is sold for money and money buy ships. Either an alliance have a swarm of ratters, moongoo, or the good old Russian Aluminium magnate to buy plex and finance the alliance. In the end, the ammount of money available is limited by the ammount of people available to use that money. A rich alliance with 50 players and 1000 stocked ships will get screwed (probably) by a poor alliance with 500 players and 500 ships. People are always needed to make the warfare happen, and if things go EVE style here, the low-skilled / low-sp players in hordes will make a big impact on the high-skill / high-sp ones simply due to numeric advantage. Money helps, but it-¦s not everything, social connections and teamwork > pimped stuff. (On the long run of course) There is a fundamental difference here, and that is that in Eve you can bring all 500 of your pilots to bear. In Dust there is a fixed number of combatants. So even with more members, when your 16 free to play guys come up against 16 P2W players, you are going to have a rough go of it. Also, keep in mind when you talk about teamwork that most of these corps have been running in 4 man squads for months now. So they will have just as much teamwork as anyone else, plus they will have more capable fittings. It does seem like a recipe for some problems. Lets hope CCP has some sort of plan for PC when it drops.
GeneralButtNaked ZionTCD Legacy Rising 306	Posted - 2013.04.15 12:43:00 - [8] - Quote Rei Shepard wrote: People who want ISK, can sell these AUR items and people who want these P2W AUR items can buy them for ISK. Stop this line of thinking right now. There is no player trading in Dust, so any discussion of it being fair because we can trade is completely moot. No player trading in 0.8 either, so we are going to be going through the opening salvos of Planetary Conquest in a tiered system, which is BS. I am getting completely fed up with people talking about the secondary market as a panacea for everything, when no one has any idea of where they are at in coding it, or how long we will have to wait for the game to actually become fair, provided you have the time to grind for ISK to get those items you want, assuming people would even sell them.
GeneralButtNaked ZionTCD Legacy Rising 307	Posted - 2013.04.15 13:01:00 - [9] - Quote Rei Shepard wrote: It will get there eventually, meanwhile ccp has to make money on this game if you like it or not. Saying it will get there eventually is you admitting that it is unbalanced now right? Just making sure we are on the same page. I have no problem with CCP making money. I do have a very big problem with them saying for over a year that the game was not going to be P2W and poof, here we are with a batch of supremacy goods on the market. Don't worry, I use these items all the time on an alt i have for getting under peoples skin. Viziam, stacked regs and damage mods, with pimped out hives and needles. Haven't even lost one yet, played close to twenty matches in them so far. I bought a batch of the 'cascade' LCDMs just because I could, and they are very handy for making much better advanced suit fittings.
GeneralButtNaked ZionTCD Legacy Rising 308	Posted - 2013.04.15 14:15:00 - [10] - Quote Rei Shepard wrote: The impact of you running 4 damage mods that costs less CPU, in the grand sheme of things is a minor concern of mine, but i do admit that it would be overall a better game practice if it were all cosmetic / low level stuff. Except it isn't just the damage mods. Look at the list of supremacy goods, and you can build a whole ton of fits that are not possible with ISK only items. Stealth Scout fits with codebreakers and regulators Max DPS Assault fits High Shield regen logi fits with proto equipment. Max damage heavies with proto sidearms Super high damage Mass Driver packing logis with triple armor repairers and good equipment. Now, I haven't done that much exploring with the fitting tool, but just out of those that I just listed you could make a monster squad that would stand a very good chance of rolling over a proto squad of ISk'ers. That you find this to be a minor concern means that either you have not seen how effective these fits are in practice, or you are using them as well, and don't want to lose an advantage that you are paying for. Or maybe you don't care for balance, or how new players will feel encountering this type of stuff. This will be an issue when PC hits, it will just be a question of how many people are willing to actually talk about it.

GeneralButtNaked ZionTCD Legacy Rising 338	Posted - 2013.04.16 21:25:00 - [11] - Quote charlesnette dalari wrote: Your argument only holds true if we don't get the dust market or at minimum the ability to trade items. Player trade alone is enough to balance things (dust player trade is supposed to come with may 6th expansion as well as taxed transfers of isk from eve to dust). Once we have that dust market or trade there is in effect no tangible difference for dust aur items and eve plex converted to isk. First, there has been no confirmation on player trading. Same for eve to dust transfers. So post a source or don't rumor monger. Secondly, the whole point of your argument seems to be that Eve is P2W as well. I don't see how this adds to the debate regarding Dust being P2W.