As you train the fitting skills that reduce your fitting costs on the AR, you reduce both PG and CPU by a total of 25%.

This brings the ISK Proto AR down to 75/15, but the Aurum variant has fixed fitting values, so it remains at the same level.

Not only can you get it with the lower skill prerequisites, but you can fit it like you've got even more SP invested into your fitting-related skills.

When open market finally arrives, we will hop in excitement on it just to find the game funded and ran by Russian oligarchs from that point onwards.

Paying cash for gear makes it impossible to create an economy parallel to that of EVE online. How would that game play, if nullsec pilots could just replace their battleship with NPC injected aurum ones? Dust PC at its core is no different. It's a game of isk ultimately. Using p2w gear will buy your alliance clone packs and infrastructure upgrades. That gear is not player made; it just pops out of thin air.

I conclude thus, that due to this choise, dust economy will remain limited and shallow. Economic warfare will be largely aurum based. To simplify it and make the ground even, I suggest bringing out the last word in PC: Genolution 'P-2W' clone pack, at 40000 AUR (25% discount).

Your whole argument here is basically that an eve pilot can't replace their ships with an aur one or in effect buy a new one using only real money and that since someone can buy gear in dust for aur (using real money) that is pay to win for dust but not eve .

You are completely incorrect. I today can buy a plex in eve using real money no different than buying aur and I then can convert that plex into ISK (going rate is about 500 mill ISK for that plex I paid real money for). So other than the extra step of converting the plex to isk (which takes a couple minutes) I am not seeing ANY difference to a player paying real money for aurum for gear in dust.

You say nullsec pilots can't replace their ships using real money yet it happens every day Not just with ships but also there are plenty of modules and equipment etc in eve that is not player manufactured. Yes there are also ships that are not player manufactured in eve even if very few but they do exist and have been many things over the years that are/were npc manufactured. The eve economy has not suffered because of this no different than the dust economy will not suffer either once we do have a open market in dust.

Your argument only holds true if we don't get the dust market or at minimum the ability to trade items. Player trade alone is enough to balance things. Once we have that dust market or trade there is in effect no tangible difference for dust aur items and eve plex converted to isk.

Your argument only holds true if we don't get the dust market or at minimum the ability to trade items. Player trade alone is enough to balance things (dust player trade is supposed to come with may 6th expansion as well as taxed transfers of isk from eve to dust). Once we have that dust market or trade there is in effect no tangible difference for dust aur items and eve plex converted to isk.

Eventually all aurum items will be available for ISK dependent on who is personally selling them. Since CCP intends for things to be player made and sold as well as offering aurum options, there will always be people who sell aurum things for ISK and thus Aurum gear actually adds to the depth of the market while also acting as a price guide that can help prevent the inflation of non aurum based gear.

First, there has been no confirmation on player trading. Same for eve to dust transfers. So post a source or don't rumor monger.

Secondly, the whole point of your argument seems to be that Eve is P2W as well. I don't see how this adds to the debate regarding Dust being P2W.

Adding that AUR Light Damage Mod is a crap move by CCP and I really can't believe it was intentional. I mean that I'm assuming it was but it really surprises me they would do that. Removing the P2W argument entirely you have an item that is superior to anything that can be made by players (when we can actually do that, anyway) and can only be bought with real money but can be sold for ISK. Absolutely nothing good can come from that and it absolutely destroys what I thought EVE/DUST was all about. Holy hell I hope that was a mistake because if not CCP got real stupid real fast.

Should add the short version:
P2W argument is mostly whining but has some valid points. Items that are superior to anything a player could make and can only be created with a real money transaction is a cluster**** of epic proportions.

seriously?!? did no one notice the OP's name?

What if they can sell their AUR items to gain ISK? I can gain ISK just by standing in the MCC, all that just means is that people with money get have to grind less... a lot less. Aurum: do more faster

When open market finally arrives, we will hop in excitement on it just to find the game funded and ran by Russian oligarchs from that point onwards.

Paying cash for gear makes it impossible to create an economy parallel to that of EVE online. How would that game play, if nullsec pilots could just replace their battleship with NPC injected aurum ones? Dust PC at its core is no different. It's a game of isk ultimately. Using p2w gear will buy your alliance clone packs and infrastructure upgrades. That gear is not player made; it just pops out of thin air.

I conclude thus, that due to this choise, dust economy will remain limited and shallow. Economic warfare will be largely aurum based. To simplify it and make the ground even, I suggest bringing out the last word in PC: Genolution 'P-2W' clone pack, at 40000 AUR (25% discount).

WHERE did you read that people could pay money for a clone pack? Not that it really makes a difference though. Think about it dude, ANYTHING people could buy with RL money, they could sell it for ISK. That's your supply/ demand thing buddy. The supply of AUR gear will come from people who buy it, the demand for it will come from people who want to buy it off the people who spent the RL money. Naturally AUR gear will be much more expensive then their ISK counter part but that's fine because AUR gear generally has a benefits over its ISK variation.

This system is also used in EVE with the whole PLEX system. People spend 20$ to buy 1 PLEX (a 30 day player subscription) that they then sell in game for over 600 million isk per unit. Sure PLEX isn't exactly the same as AUR bought gear, but at the end of the day, EVERYTHING AUR bought is bought well..... with Aurum. Which will almost certainly have an exchange rate with ISK. But really all of this doesn't matter anyway because NONE OF US have any clue how CCP is going to do things to begin with.

On number three, personally i consider p2w the items that can-¦t be adquired other than purchasing with real life money, and that the stats are disproportional to the conventional items, so that a player that spends a lot of time at the game, will never be able to have the same gear that a paying person has.

That-¦s definetly not the case here.

I still haven-¦t played with all the numbers at the fitting tool, but even with the less CPU/PG, and even if a person can stick a lot of stuff in one suit, i still don-¦t think that-¦s toooo overpower, cause after all, the person can only use one thing at a time.

No matter how you twist and turn words and definitions, AUR items with fewer skill requirements give an unfair advantage to those with rl money to burn on Dust. We need to fight and question their existence and demand their deletion, otherwise slippery slope will lead to a P2W game.

All i-¦m asking is How is this an advantage.

I can-¦t stick several main weapons on my suit to be a "Sniper-Swarmlaunching-Assault-Logi", i-¦m not aware of "oneshotkillthemall" fitting with aur equip (or an isk one), so if you have a very unfair, unbalanced, awesome fitting that can be made only with aurum items, i-¦ll believe in P2w, otherwise, i-¦ll just see this as whinning.

Previous posters made specific claims about specific items. Yes, the CPU/PG is greatly reduced, but this only counts when you stack those items in a fitting, so it-¦s not that the "items" are overpowered (the stats are equal/worst than isk one), but (maybe, still need evidence) their grouping in a fitting.

Do you have a fitting that is aur only and outperforms isk ones ?

I do not think you have actually thought this through to the end game. In order to use the P2W modules you need to be at the max skill level. So it creates fittings that are only possible with Aurum items equipped. I'll show you, and you can do the figuring out for yourself.

First, lets get you to the Dust Fitting Tool:

Dust Fitting Tool

Make a copy(in the file menu in Google docs), and then you can edit the doc and follow along with me. Top centre there is a drop down menu with the list of starter fits, scroll down and select ALL LVL 5.


So now you have max skills, lets have you be an anti tank killing machine. Select a heavy proto suit.

Now, you take your proto suit out, and you equip:

2 x Complex Armor Plate
1 x Locus Grenade
1 x Ishukone Assault Forge Gun
1 x Ishukone Assault Submachine Gun

Next, try and equip three complex damage mods.

Fitting invalid.

Now try and fit either three 'Seismic' Heavy Damage mods, and presto, it just fits.

So there you have a fitting that is only possible with aurum items.

Keep in mind this problem actually gets WORSE for the other stuff, because this particular fit can't even take advantage of the boost offered by the regulators, the hives, the rep tool, etc.

How about a VK 1 glass cannon fit:

4 x complex damage mods -23 cpu each
2 x complex regulators -11 cpu each

Just on those alone using the Aurum items saves you 114 CPU. That is enough to run proto needles and hives. And a really nice grenade.

That is with MAX skills. Those are very tangible benefits.

Clearly, those goods are of a higher quality to their ISK counter parts. They are only available for RL money, and as such are supremacy goods.

Now, even if you don't want to call that P2W, it is certainly accurate that it is a far more flexible option to take advantage of, almost regardless of fit.

So, I cannot be any more clear on how the status of things are right now.

Maybe these things will change in the next build, maybe they won't. All I know is that since I first took notice of this, there have been more of these types of goods added to the market. Interpret that how ever you like.

What this comes down to is semantics. Either you call it P2W, or you call them supremacy goods, it is all the same thing. A tiered playing field. One for real money players, one for freebies. And that is precisely what CCP said the game would not be.

Now, I encourage you to play around with these items on the dust fitting tool. Use the sidearm or heavy damage aurum mod if you need to substitute for the newly added light complex damage mod. See what types of Aurum only fits you can create with the skills you actually have. See how to make it work for you.

You should understand that the people you play against already know this stuff, they just don't want to share their preferred proto fits. These types of fits will be used against you in PC.

CCP confirmed on the reddit AMA that player trading will not be in Uprising. Link. So saying this will be fixed by the player market will not be true for PC.

It may happen down the line but then we are dealing in hypotheticals. and AUR gear with better fitting ability than any ISK gear is something that is available on the market now, not "Soon TM".

East solution.

Make all Aur items sellable for isk on the market. Never make it sellable for AUR, never allow AUR to transfer.

http://www.reddit.com/r/dust514/comments/1ckz34/dust_514_developer_ama/c9him6w

I don-¦t have a reddit account and i don-¦t know how to use it, but the points of this topic could very well be sent there, after all, they-¦re watching and replying.

Yes, I was the one who asked that question (look at the flair next to the username). I was just trying to put it in a slightly simpler question format instead of dragging in 5 pages of discussion.

Yes, the player driven economy will fix this. Are officer weapons p2w? The idea that the economy is broken is totally correct. Economies live off of supply and demand and we have infinite supply and regular demand. The economy is broken because there is only an illusion that there is an economy, when the market is player driven it will all be fixed. Will DUST mercs be able to buy plex to sell to pilots? Is that p2w? Aur stuff is junk and we know it. Top players don't need it and scrubs waste their money. It does not hurt me at all, just like AFK warriors.

http://www.reddit.com/r/dust514/comments/1ckz34/dust_514_developer_ama/c9him6w

I don-¦t have a reddit account and i don-¦t know how to use it, but the points of this topic could very well be sent there, after all, they-¦re watching and replying.