DUST Search - Yeah... I'm gonna go ahead and say infantry only Ambush is a -horrible- idea

DJINN leukoplast wrote:

Nguruthos IX wrote:

Again so you draw the exception at LAV's Because they're worthless. You COULD spend 500k on one but it would be taken out by free swarms instantly so nobody does.

Now if you'd just also admit that the same exception could be drawn for dropships because

"Dropships are OP, they're killing everyone and I can't take it down with free AV!" ~Said no one ever
then you'd be agreeing with me that this issue arose because of tanks and not vehicles in general.

IO lobby is a cry against the lack of content balancing tanks out, and not against LAV's. Not against DS and definitely not against LAVs.
Therefore since Vehicles = {lav, ds, hav}. And {LAV, DS} is a non issue then this is an issue about HAV.

Well I certainly am not going to say that dropships are some huge problem in ambush, they are pretty rare and it's not like it was in early Codex where they could own the battlefield single-handedly. But why would you even want to bring a DS into ambush? The maps are tiny, and it's not as if spawning and dropping from a DS in ambush would make any tactical sense (unless your a sniper and want to get up to an unreachable spot). Really the only thing a DS does in ambush is provide intel and maybe draw the attention of the enemy players a little bit.

However DS's do fall in the same category as tanks because players need a dedicated AV fit to take them out (even if it is BPO militia swarms, it's still dedicated to taking out AV and not infantry). LAV do not require dedicated AV, so players can still have a perfectly capable fit for dealing with infantry, but also at the same time keep the LAV's at bay.

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Nguruthos IX Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 150	Posted - 2013.03.23 22:53:00 - [151] - Quote DJINN leukoplast wrote: Nguruthos IX wrote: Again so you draw the exception at LAV's Because they're worthless. You COULD spend 500k on one but it would be taken out by free swarms instantly so nobody does. Now if you'd just also admit that the same exception could be drawn for dropships because "Dropships are OP, they're killing everyone and I can't take it down with free AV!" ~Said no one ever then you'd be agreeing with me that this issue arose because of tanks and not vehicles in general. IO lobby is a cry against the lack of content balancing tanks out, and not against LAV's. Not against DS and definitely not against LAVs. Therefore since Vehicles = {lav, ds, hav}. And {LAV, DS} is a non issue then this is an issue about HAV. Well I certainly am not going to say that dropships are some huge problem in ambush, they are pretty rare and it's not like it was in early Codex where they could own the battlefield single-handedly. But why would you even want to bring a DS into ambush? The maps are tiny, and it's not as if spawning and dropping from a DS in ambush would make any tactical sense (unless your a sniper and want to get up to an unreachable spot). Really the only thing a DS does in ambush is provide intel and maybe draw the attention of the enemy players a little bit. However DS's do fall in the same category as tanks because players need a dedicated AV fit to take them out (even if it is BPO militia swarms, it's still dedicated to taking out AV and not infantry). LAV do not require dedicated AV, so players can still have a perfectly capable fit for dealing with infantry, but also at the same time keep the LAV's at bay. Why would I want a DS in ambush? - Scanners, limited cover fire, flanking, because it's all im skilled for, I might enjoy ambush and want to get the isk/SP from it if there's no corp contracts around at the time and or I don't enjoy PVE. "However DS's do fall in the same category as tanks because players need a dedicated AV fit to take them out (even if it is BPO militia swarms". Also AV has either side arms which make them not totally useless. Or forge guns are incredible anti infantry weapons as well. When I want to troll a battlefield I just fit a militia forge and 1 shot snipe anyone over a hill. - Not really, anyone can have a free AV fit. And if any 1-3 people decide to don their free AV fits they will either drive away or quickly eliminate any DS. No skill points required. No isk required. I have to disagree that it therefore falls into the same category as tanks.
Nguruthos IX Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 150	Posted - 2013.03.23 22:54:00 - [152] - Quote Rasatsu wrote: So Paper wants a no-Rock game mode? This is pretty much it. I can't see a CCP style game working within that construct. It's antithesis to everything EVE is and everything dust has so far been designed as.
Rasatsu Much Crying Old Experts 547	Posted - 2013.03.23 22:55:00 - [153] - Quote Nguruthos IX wrote: "Dropships are OP, they're killing everyone and I can't take it down with free AV!" ~Said no one ever then you'd be agreeing with me that this issue arose because of tanks and not vehicles in general. I see you're new to this game. squish squish squish Is the only hint I'll leave towards pointing out your 'said no one ever' is factually incorrect.
Sloth9230 Reaper Galactic 580	Posted - 2013.03.23 22:59:00 - [154] - Quote Rasatsu wrote: So Paper wants a no-Rock game mode? I'm sure Paper loves Rock, you might be thinking Scissors here...
Rasatsu Much Crying Old Experts 547	Posted - 2013.03.23 23:08:00 - [155] - Quote Sloth9230 wrote: Rasatsu wrote: So Paper wants a no-Rock game mode? I'm sure Paper loves Rock, you might be thinking Scissors here... No, it's part of the meta-game; if Paper has a no-Rock game mode it will look as if Scissor is OP and CCP will (after a few months of complaints) over-nerf Scissors. And then Paper will have a large advantage in other game modes.
DJINN leukoplast Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 354	Posted - 2013.03.23 23:21:00 - [156] - Quote gbghg wrote: AV nades are just as deadly to dropships as they are too LAV's. I've lost ships to 1 person throwing packed AV at me when i hovered too low and was moving too slowly. Yes I have done that before as well, however I wouldn't bring AV nades with the sole intention of taking out a DS, nor would it be worth replacing my anti-infantry M1's in the unlikely event I will get the opportunity to be close enough to them to score a hit with nades. Because this scenario is 100% reliant on the pilot and whether or not the situation warrants them vulnerable to the distance of a nade throw (pretty rare). Nguruthos IX wrote: Why would I want a DS in ambush? - Scanners, limited cover fire, flanking, because it's all im skilled for, I might enjoy ambush and want to get the isk/SP from it if there's no corp contracts around at the time and or I don't enjoy PVE. "However DS's do fall in the same category as tanks because players need a dedicated AV fit to take them out (even if it is BPO militia swarms". Also AV has either side arms which make them not totally useless. Or forge guns are incredible anti infantry weapons as well. When I want to troll a battlefield I just fit a militia forge and 1 shot snipe anyone over a hill. - Not really, anyone can have a free AV fit. And if any 1-3 people decide to don their free AV fits they will either drive away or quickly eliminate any DS. No skill points required. No isk required. I have to disagree that it therefore falls into the same category as tanks. I am finding it rather difficult to follow your incoherent rambling. But it seems you are missing the point. You assume a team full of random players will work together to take out a DS, however that is irreverent to the topic. You also miss the point about a player having to use a fit that is absolutely worthless against infantry. Who cares if it's free and whether or not it's capable of taking out a DS, that isn't the point here, if a player has swarms as their main to take out that tank or DS, then that leaves them with only a secondary to fend off other infantry players. I for one would not want to take on one or two assault players with a Toxin or Scrambler, sure they are great in a pinch but not as main weapons (at least for me). And that is what happens to players who have to use a swarm as a main, they become anti-infantry handicapped until they die and choose the proper anti-infantry fit.
Vermaak Doe SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 608	Posted - 2013.03.23 23:50:00 - [157] - Quote Sloth9230 wrote: Vermaak Doe wrote: Sloth9230 wrote: Vermaak Doe wrote: That's called a tactical mistake, when you know you're more than likely facing vehicles Right, so you would choose the guy who's more versatile over the guy who isn't? I would. Have fun getting steamrolled by vehicles I'm saying I would choose the guy with AV skills -_-, Preferably more than 1, and someone with tank skills. Why would anyone ever pack a team with nothing but Infantry? To capture the objective, you're not meant to only skill for anti infantry weapons
Sloth9230 Reaper Galactic 581	Posted - 2013.03.24 00:06:00 - [158] - Quote Vermaak Doe wrote: Sloth9230 wrote: Vermaak Doe wrote: Sloth9230 wrote: Vermaak Doe wrote: That's called a tactical mistake, when you know you're more than likely facing vehicles Right, so you would choose the guy who's more versatile over the guy who isn't? I would. Have fun getting steamrolled by vehicles I'm saying I would choose the guy with AV skills -_-, Preferably more than 1, and someone with tank skills. Why would anyone ever pack a team with nothing but Infantry? To capture the objective, you're not meant to only skill for anti infantry weapons I'm not even sure what you're saying anymore more. Clearly a varied team is better than 1 were everyone does the same thing. Yes it's important to capture objectives, no ****, this isn't ambush. If a guy is just as good at AV as he is with an AR, why would I pick the guy who can only use the AR?
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 2107	Posted - 2013.03.24 00:42:00 - [159] - Quote Rasatsu wrote: Sloth9230 wrote: Rasatsu wrote: So Paper wants a no-Rock game mode? I'm sure Paper loves Rock, you might be thinking Scissors here... No, it's part of the meta-game; if Paper has a no-Rock game mode it will look as if Scissor is OP and CCP will (after a few months of complaints) over-nerf Scissors. And then Paper will have a large advantage in other game modes. So what you're saying is that if we get an infantry only version of Ambush, CCP will have to give back the dumbfire ability on Swarms? Sounds like a good argument in favour. As usual, I've slept on things and re-re-evaluated my position here. I do that a lot. I don't want a mode with no vehicles any more. Why? AV Grenades. A lot of players skill into AV Grenades specifically - not anything else, just AV Grenades, as a "support" function for their primary role of infantry combat. They work alongside dedicated AV players and act primarily as bodyguards, with the occasional grenade toss to clear a rushing LAV or help soften up a tank. Flux Grenades are also frequently used as AV weapons. When paired with a Mass Driver, they can be effective at pushing back Militia tanks, and are awesome for supporting a "proper" AV Option. Laser + AV Grenade is another surprisingly dangerous lite-AV combo, and again, with proper AV support, can be a real threat. But this means that those players are finding a balance closer to the anti-infantry side of combat, while still offering some threat for enemy vehicles. If we get an infantry-only mode, it will reduce diversity. We'll have infantry combat, pure AV fittings, and people in tanks. There won't be anyone using these middle-ground or hybrid loadouts any more. Swarm/Flux/SMG combo. Infantry? Pull SMG, a Flux will soften up the attackers, then your SMG can shred their exposed armour. Tank? Flux to soften up shields if it's Caldari or take them out on a Gallente, then it's time to pour in the Swarms. Laser/SMG/AV Grenade combo. Laser to start, then either switch to SMG on infantry who are closing on you, or toss a grenade at a tank that's had its armour exposed. Keep your distance from the enemy, possibly relying on AR-wielding teammates (who might also be running AV nades). AR/AV nade. Focus on defending the AV guys against enemy infantry, but if there's a tank that's already (or about to be) under fire, toss your grenade to help out. If enemy LAVs come your way, easy kill. A smart driver might ditch their scrap heap in time, but you've got your AR at the ready. If there's Ambush with vehicles and Ambush without, most infantry players will gravitate towards AV-specific fittings or towards infantry-specific fittings. That will in some cases reduce the usefulness of Lasers and Mass Drivers, and increase the prevalence of Snipers and AR users, while also making Swarm/AV nade setups more likely and more practical than having an AV fitting where you run the SL almost as a backup weapon on an otherwise anti-infantry setup with SMG and Locus Grenades.
METR0 THE DESTR0YER UnReaL. 85	Posted - 2013.03.24 01:30:00 - [160] - Quote This Is what happens when you have tanks in ambush http://s1298.photobucket.com/user/LudwigVanBeatdropin/library/?page=1

DUST Fiend Immobile Infantry 2136	Posted - 2013.03.24 01:32:00 - [161] - Quote METR0 THE DESTR0YER wrote: This Is what happens when you have tanks in ambush http://s1298.photobucket.com/user/LudwigVanBeatdropin/library/?page=1 You sir are a turd burger, was literally just about to post this >_< But giving us an infantry mode breaks the game
Deluxe Edition Like a Boss. 71	Posted - 2013.03.24 01:48:00 - [162] - Quote Deluxe Edition wrote: Sloth9230 wrote: Nguruthos IX wrote: Now we know why this idea came about. It's because presently tanks own everyone. False, tanks don't own everyone, I'd go so far as to call them underpowered, tanks only own newberries. This^ Tanks are easy for an experienced player to avoid/kill. The solution to this isn't a new game mode, but rather a ladder system being used in matchmaking so that you play with people within your skill level. Tanks are only OP against newberries, most vets I know see them as $$ signs when the enemy brings them in. Still This^
METR0 THE DESTR0YER UnReaL. 85	Posted - 2013.03.24 02:10:00 - [163] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: METR0 THE DESTR0YER wrote: This Is what happens when you have tanks in ambush http://s1298.photobucket.com/user/LudwigVanBeatdropin/library/?page=1 You sir are a turd burger, was literally just about to post this >_< But giving us an infantry mode breaks the game Lol, feel free and spread the word.
Sylvana Nightwind Expert Intervention Caldari State 139	Posted - 2013.03.24 04:05:00 - [164] - Quote It is just new game mode. Not entire ambush becoming infantry only. I can't believe this guy got so many likes >.>
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. CRONOS. 3201	Posted - 2013.03.24 04:06:00 - [165] - Quote Needs MORE SANDBOX!


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