I believe they need to add a improved (or mandatory) tutorial or maybe have an option where another player could talk to the person and help the new guy with some of the basics and if the new guy thinks he learned a lot he could say that the tutor was helpful and the tutor could get a reward promoting the want to help people integrate themselves into the game.

The skills and loadouts take a lot of reading and thinking and customizing, and tweaking, and retweaking...I love it personally! However I have had several friends that just couldn't get into the game because of complexity of it all. They just want to shoot people in the face not spend an hour in the menus.

Possible solutions

Create a skill or career path system that a player can select and the SP they earn will automatically be applied to the skills that belong to that path. Similar to Dungeons and Dragons online. At any time the player can leave the path and pick their own way as they get more comfortable with the game.

Possible paths could include

Espionage- with a focus in the scout suits, hacking, explsives, scanning, dampening, droplinks, knives and side arms for CQC.

Support- focus in logistics suits, repairing, nanohives, nanite injectors, and light weapons.

Defender- Focus on heavy suits, HMGs, AV, and tanking.

Assailant- focus on the assualt suit, AR, SMG, Grenades, and various low level support skills to make them versatile.

There could be multiple offshoots from each path or just variants of these that focus on sniper rifles etc.

For each path there could be a complete dropsuitfitting purchasable in the market for ISK that lets the player continue playing without being bogged down by the market and loadouts. There could even be high end loadouts for them as they progress down their chosen path.

Any thoughts?
Speak Freely

What your saying is true but do we want more FPS orientated people who treat the game to much like COD?

What your saying is true but do we want more FPS orientated people who treat the game to much like COD?

The skills and loadouts take a lot of reading and thinking and customizing, and tweaking, and retweaking...I love it personally! However I have had several friends that just couldn't get into the game because of complexity of it all. They just want to shoot people in the face not spend an hour in the menus.

I disagree with any effort to 'fast track' a career in Dust, or make the game more accessible. I like the fact that it is complicated, and takes some effort to learn to play, because it functions as a way to weed out trash-talking lone wolfs that, well, just want to shoot people in the face. There are all kinds of FPS games for that, and new ones all the time. Dust should be intentionally difficult; not overwhelmingly difficult, but to the point that if someone is not willing to spend the time to learn to play, then likely that person will slowly realize this isn't their kind of game, and move on.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't EvE built on a similar system?

I don't play EvE, but I've read about it and heard a lot from people who play. EvE is actually rather difficult, but that's part of its charm. It's an actual challenge for the core gamers (which in this age is something we're sorely lacking). I would hate to see DUST become more streamlined. I enjoy the fact it took me the 4 weeks I've been playing to understand what I understand now. And even at that, I still don't know half as much as I'd like to about the game. And this is not to mention I'll have to learn all the new stuff they've got planned for DUST as the months go by AND all the expansions the game will experience as the years go by after it's full release.

I DO agree however, that there should be at least some kind of tutorial for certain elements. Vehicle maneuvering for example, especially Dropships.

There is a gigantic elephant in the room here...

DUST 514 needs players to be successful. Normally, you'd never hear me speak out for lazy mushbrains who can't take 3 days of playing a game to figure out how it works, but the entire enterprise that CCP is going for here is a massive COD or MW FPS crowd to populate the ground level combat of the Eve universe.

Two major things could crush this game if only 100k dedicated people end up playing it: 1) It is totally free. All incoming money relies solely on the AUR market. More players playing equals more people buying gear, boosters, etc... on the market. The second 2) is that there are literally a thousand solar systems or more in the Eve universe and most of those systems have belts, moons or planets that could be potential battlefields. If there are only 20k people signed into Dust 4 months after launch during a given hour because so many people jumped ship, that will make for a pretty pathetic number of active battles literally strewn across a thousand star systems.

I don't know about you, but I want as many people to stick around as possible for the second reason and CCP wants just as many peeps to stick around for the first reason.

IF implementing some kind of rookie skill and equipment training system will keep people logged in, I'm pretty much all for it. I am not for the dumbing down of this system as it is (it hardly seems complicated to me as I am typically not a FPS person) but the OPs idea would keep the game open to both types of players AND doesn't do anything that they couldn't do on their own already. The one point of contention I have is making stock dropsuit fittings easily available. MAYBE add some kind of "completed fitting" tax (5% over actual market costs) so lazy people can still play, don't lose too much ISK but are still being held responsible for their being lazy. "Convenience fee."

One thing is certain in DUST 514: more players, more battles, more AUR and ISK being spent...more fun for everyone.

I respect what you are saying, and I think you're right - to an extent.

Personally, I like playing Dust. I'd rather have a better game with fewer players than the most popular game in the world - that I think sucks.

Yeah, that's selfishness for you, but so long as we don't fall below whatever threshold is necessary for proper integration into Eve and proper compensation for CCP, I vote for a more cerebral shooter.

Oh don't get me wrong at all...

I have played Eve off and on for 2+ years and, thus, this game being considered "complex" somewhat baffles me. There IS a threshold of how simple and "canned" this game can get without it going to hell in a ham sandwich. It is still a good deal of new information for a typical gamer to absorb and many people will simply quit if they aren't assimilated into the system in a relatively fluid manner.

There is no way this game is getting LESS complicated than it already is. No way. As corp battles get more involved, maps get bigger and things like racial dropsuits and suit skill bonuses get added and integration with Eve get added into this game, it will only get more complicated. Much more complicated. The basics shouldn't change much, but player involvement and objectives sure will...which will only serve to alienate the uninitiated further without some serious help.

The OPs point is that a system can and should be implemented into the game that, without reducing its appeal to the hardcore/pro complicated/steep learning curve crowd, make the game more easily played by the newly injected FPS gamer. In essence, make it "simpler" by adding mechanics that allow someone to build a stock class quickly and efficiently so they can get out there and kill people without diminishing the awesome complexity that is the DUST skill system. People who learn the game mechanics will always have an advantage over people who just spawn without knowledge.

Call me silly: but this is obviously a team based game. Communication is key, to teach new players, direct on the field, and harass and complain. I know a profit plan is in order, but the "universal voice transmitter" thing just makes people keep the mic off. Who wants to pay to talk?
Yes, I know we can comm with team and with squad without the UVT, but I had to discover this on accident. 'Paying to talk' lessens the likelihood of VOIP. Which lessens the experience. Just drop that off your profit plan and help make this game team based. It builds community and will give inertia to the interest.

I agree that the UVT kinda sucks. But it only costs .50 for a month. And its not required. If people aren't interested in spending any money at all then team and squad chat will probably be enough for them. I do think it should be turned by default though since it is such an ordeal to get it set up the first time. Push to talk should be off as default and voice should be on as a default. then when you join a squad or a team it should also be on as a default unless you have voice activated on another channel.

+1 they need to sort out the voice options.

But personally i think we need more tutorials, i remember when i first logged on back in closed beta and looked at all the skills and the fitting menu, it was so confusing i just left after the first match. coming back just before open beta the tutorials while not great did help, we need a way to educate people how the system works without boring them. also some kind of under 1mil sp play list would probably help newbies find their feet without getting stomped into the ground repeatedly.

+1 they need to sort out the voice options.

But personally i think we need more tutorials, i remember when i first logged on back in closed beta and looked at all the skills and the fitting menu, it was so confusing i just left after the first match. coming back just before open beta the tutorials while not great did help, we need a way to educate people how the system works without boring them. also some kind of under 1mil sp play list would probably help newbies find their feet without getting stomped into the ground repeatedly.

I disagree with those who believe that this is only good for bringing in brain dead twitching wretches. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean you are COD fanboy who knows ***** for brain. I am one of the most intelligent (and arrogant) people I know, and I made two trial accounts on EVE without understanding what was going on. Third time was the charm. Anyway, Dust is very similar. It's less complicated, but it still has it's fair share of what I call "mindpricks" that prick your mind, like the annoying UI, the poor given information and the lack of a guiding hand. If this smart (and narcissistic) dude can have trouble with EVE, be damn sure that an ordinary Joe looking for a more intellectual FPS can have trouble with Dust.

I dont think we need to dumb it down too much.. what I think would be good is a few 'premade' suits up to 2nd tier (Type II) for the different classes. The info on the suits would explain their purpose and give some general ideas of what skills would be preferable for that suit (though not all would be mandatory).

Its one things to teach people what does what but the best way is to give them a goal. That allows the newberries a little more comfort room to get used to the system before throwing them to the wolves.

I've been watching youtube videos of new DUST 514 players and I caught a bit of the Escapist Magazine live feed.

New players are just lost. The starter fits, now that the game has been around for a while, are death traps. In the name of giving new players a quick way to get into the fight they turn them into hamburger.

The tutorials are ignored. The screen with directions pops up. There is a second or two hesitation, GÇ£Do you want to know more?GÇ¥ GÇô GÇ£No wayGÇ¥ says the player. Click.

The problem seems to be that new players don't get the core mechanics of skill books, skill advancement, and how they tie to purchasing equipment and fitting. I saw a staff member at the Escapist buy multiple copies of skill books thinking that was how you advanced skill. The also wanted to buy all the skill books they were qualified for just because the skill description seemed interesting. They didn't have any idea of a skill acquisition plan based on play style.

I was thinking a mandatory, interactive tutorial GÇ£How do you like to play an FPS?GÇ¥ where the new player has to answer questions and in the process learns how to buy skill books, advance skills, purchase equipment and fit a dropsuit to achieve their goals. It would be a lot of work for the developers but there's a chance it could pay off big with better starter fits.

In another thread I suggested a GÇ£Mentor ModeGÇ¥ where the player's screen was echoed to another player and they were in a common chat channel. The GÇ£MentorGÇ¥ could give advice or evaluate the player for a corporation. It might be possible for friends / corp-mates to help each other out a little easier if there was something like that.

I would love to see a respec or reallocation of skill points. People will make a ton of mistakes with SP so offering this would help.

Good idea! +1

Also I was thinking, when they bring in certificates then players could be presented with a choice of basic certificates to begin with, much like they are with the current "classes". The certificates would the automatically purchase and train the relevant skills to complete the certificate, giving the simplest basic course of how skills work.

This could obviously be done for advanced certificates too. Just pick the profession you want and follow the yellow brick road.

Edit: I think this is where PvE would definitely improve the state of things. The game could begin with you just being alone in one of the maps, a timer in the corner and some text on the screen: "Two minutes until enemy reinforcements arrive". As a new player you are shown the intro skill screen (what type of player are you) and you shoot stuff right away. The first round is easy and you can destroy everything in minutes.

A supply depot is dropped next to you and you are told by a mysterious voice to hack it, so you do. Now access fittings and restock ammo or give another class a go.

Fight off another wave and you get told to escape. Call for aerial support and high tail it to a pre-determined exit zone in your fast as hell LAV.

There you go CCP, I just wrote your tutorial for you :)

It actually sounds a lot like the tutorials in MAG. Just without the PvE. The main thing that confuses people though is the skills and their function and dropsuit fittings. These need a good in depth tutorial or training program to help people understand it better.

The SP tutorial would come after that first PvE engagement and as soon as you return to merc quarters.

You are stuck in the starting position and the lady voice says "Earning skill points in battle allows you to train skills. Open your neocom and select 'character-skills' to view your skillset."

From there she could tell you to choose one and tell you the benefits of all the starting skills that each player can begin with and let you go from there.

If you are making an alt then the game should recognise you already have one character and ask if you want to skip it, just so we aren't spending half an hour locked into something we may have already done twice.

As I mentioned in my first post in this thread, I'm pretty sure I saw some dev comment that Certifications were coming. I think this should help with the "How should I train" kind of questions at least.

I have been unable to locate the link but I believe you are correct regarding certifications.
If the descriptions on the Certs are clear and there is a list of "recommended certifications" provided by in game prompts linked to the 'class' selection of the player I think that will help quite a bit in providing new players with the information they need at the times they need it.

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ps ~ I fully support the concept of doing more for the new player experience, the game is good but for some of those not already accustomed to CCPs level of complexity it can be a rough climb up that learning curve. On a related note having a militia version of all gear so that new players can try stuff out before pumping their SP into permanent skill selections would also be a boon to new players.

EDIT: I like the ideas expressed by RINON114 (and the quotes) in post #42

I think this idea would really improve new player reception to the game. End of tutorial? Pick one of these skill paths to auto-train.

I know EVE has a certificate system that is SUPPOSED to do a similar thing, but I've been playing EVE for ~5 years~ and haven't met a player who seriously considers the certificate planner as a valuable tool in skill planning. A far more structured system like the one described would, I think, be far superior then adding a certificate system like the one in EVE to Dust.

+1

I think this idea would really improve new player reception to the game. End of tutorial? Pick one of these skill paths to auto-train.

I know EVE has a certificate system that is SUPPOSED to do a similar thing, but I've been playing EVE for ~5 years~ and haven't met a player who seriously considers the certificate planner as a valuable tool in skill planning. A far more structured system like the one described would, I think, be far superior then adding a certificate system like the one in EVE to Dust.

+1

I guess the PvE environment would be perfect for a tutorial that includes action and excitement. The new player makes his character and then is transported via dropship to the surface of a planet with a rogue drone infestation. Battle commences and they are taught all kinds of new and interesting things!

With a PvE tutorial you could actually run the player through the diferent classes with supply depots. They could start as an assualt and move into position fighting the first few drones and securing a supply depot. They could then be promted to switch to a logi and repair a turret installation set up a drop link and a nano hive. Fight a few drones and then be promted to switch to a heavy with an hmg to fight a big hoard of weak drones. Maybe switch over to the forge gun or swarm launcher for a queen drone. Then possibly be over run and be prompted to change to a scout to make your escape or call in an orbital or lav. It would cover a good bit of the different types of gameplay. However when it comes to skills and character progression a certificate or path system would be the best route.

I respect what you are saying, and I think you're right - to an extent.

Personally, I like playing Dust. I'd rather have a better game with fewer players than the most popular game in the world - that I think sucks.

Yeah, that's selfishness for you, but so long as we don't fall below whatever threshold is necessary for proper integration into Eve and proper compensation for CCP, I vote for a more cerebral shooter.

That is exactly what should happen. Combine this with the ideas in this thread and we have an idea worth presenting to CCP.

Sounds good, a PvE intro to the way battlefield roles work would really help players become grounded before they start spending ISK and SP. I think that would help improve the new player exprience and lead to greater retention.

I'm all for keeping Dust as it's own entity, I don't think it needs to be watered down for "mass appeal" but I also don't see any harm done to the nature of the game by making new player orientation a more robust offering. In short don't make it easier to play dust by oversimplifying dust, Make dust easier to play by providing strong tutorials, PvE intros etc. to ensure a robust system for our new player experience. A complex game adds depth and fun value, driving new players away at the door does not.

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ps ~ for those who care I play EVE and everyone I know in EVE agrees that the new player experience is one of the weakest links in the game, it would be great if D514 could buck that trend.

I agree 100%!!

I would hate for CCP to simplify things or make the game idiot compatible. I am just looking for ways to make the game easier to get started in. I tried EVE once with the free trial and was pretty overwhelmed by it. I wasn't willing to spend a monthly subscription on a game I didn't fully understand.

I hate the people who say "oh, we have to keep it complicated so we can keep the idiots and the CoD players out". To me that's just cruel and selfish. I almost passed this game by. I had seen trailers for it a while back, but didn't even know it had been released in open beta until recently. When I first went on, I was completely lost. I would have given up, but after an hour or two, I sort of got the hang of it. And I am a CoD player (at my friend's house anyway). And I'm 13. It's just infuriating how many stereotypes there are surround people's "gaming background" and age in this game.

I hate the people who say "oh, we have to keep it complicated so we can keep the idiots and the CoD players out". To me that's just cruel and selfish. I almost passed this game by. I had seen trailers for it a while back, but didn't even know it had been released in open beta until recently. When I first went on, I was completely lost. I would have given up, but after an hour or two, I sort of got the hang of it. And I am a CoD player (at my friend's house anyway). And I'm 13. It's just infuriating how many stereotypes there are surround people's "gaming background" and age in this game.

Yeah sorry about that. I definatly could have worded it better, but it was late and, at the time, I couldn't think of anything better to convey my point. But I stand by what I said. And trust me, unless this game gets dumbed down to the point where it's your common run and gun shooter, there is no way the "stereotypical CoD player" will ever find his/her way in here, and a simple tutorial definatly won't change that.