First:

If you are able to get within throwing distance of an infantry slaughtering blaster turret with 2 small turrets attached watching all around the main, then you deserve some boosted damage. Swarms and forge guns can be used from FAR away, so since AV grenades put you in more danger than other AV weapons, they SHOULD yield more damage. And let's not get into the big talk about nade spamming, we've gone over it SO much. If you are willing to run your tank into an area that hasn't been cleared by your team first, then you deserve any AV spamming you get, no matter how strong it is. Oh, but it's a pub match? Don't trust your blue dots? Don't run your tank solo then. Anyway, not getting into that, just addressing points.

Second:

Tank MINIMUM requirements- 0 SP. I have a tank. I have invested 0 SP into it. And it still holds up well to packed AV grenades. I spec Methana LAV's, so I have lvl 1 basic armor adaptation, so that also gives me a bonus I guess. Ok, so how much was that? 30,000 ish for lvl 1?

Ok, so I have a militia tank with 5500 ish armor, 11% passive armor damage reduction mod, 25% active armor damage reduction mod, 9% damage control unit, and a heavy repair mod. It cost me 30,000 ish SP and takes both swarms and basic/packed AV nades like a champ.

But I get your point, however tier 1 gear is supposed to be able to take out tier 1 vehicles. That's just the way it goes. If you don't like AV grenades, read the first part of this post labeled "First", it'll give you some pointers on how to avoid them.

Lastly:

AV grenades are low SP vs tanks. However you are giving up a slot in your setup in the HOPES that a vehicle will pass nearby. If one doesn't, you've lost your ability to use real grenades to flush out enemies or to drop the shields of that B-Series that's coming around the corner while you are still recovering from the last fire fight.

Blaster turrets have a longer range than any player can throw a grenade (unless they are on top of a mountain or something). If you let yourself get within their range, it's not their fault, it's yours. And if they are able to sneak up on you, that's them being good at sneaking, not AV grenades being OP.

Now hopefully CCP can spend some time and scrim through all these nice posts out here and put a balance in place.

But betcha $20.00 the overnerf hammer is coming

Tank are fine, blaster a bit op but generally fine

Pub stomping means nothing.
You are going against RANDOMS and alot of new guys who don't have AV skilled.

As my AV voice from redstar has agreed with most things. That's Why I want responses from skilled AV players and skilled HAV players. Not randoms who went against that tank once and watches them stomp pub matches.

LOL We will kill any tank....."Archon" will make sure of it. ....

Members in Red Star are fined 100000 ISK for every death against tanks and they get yelled at by me.

Some exclusions apply though for the good tankers out there.

So your saying i dont have to pay for those death's i got to Movadjo's tanks then right. Cause i dealt the final blow and all. ;0....

So where is your points to support your comment?

or did you just feel like stopping by and saying hello?

Pub stomping means nothing.
You are going against RANDOMS and alot of new guys who don't have AV skilled.

As my AV voice from redstar has agreed with most things. That's Why I want responses from skilled AV players and skilled HAV players. Not randoms who went against that tank once and watches them stomp pub matches.

Some corp member have tank i play with them like gunner, i play a lot against, tank get there power from is other squad member, like infantry, they cost a lot of isk but like us our corp give isk for tank player AV are fine, forge also perhaps the swarm proto a little bit op

There's a few issues with tanks I'd like to have a chat about.


...I'd also like to see missile launchers be fixed. At this point they're wasting space in game...


...The keyboard and joystick need to be on equal grounds, the joystick should equal the keyboard...

Define 'skilled AV' please, because I don't think it has been yet. Is this someone who dedicates all of their SP to walking around and killing vehicles, because that sounds like a miserable dedication. If anything 1/3 of SP in AV seems a little more reasonable. And as such I would consider myself that.

So where is your points to support your comment?

or did you just feel like stopping by and saying hello?

Define 'skilled AV' please, because I don't think it has been yet. Is this someone who dedicates all of their SP to walking around and killing vehicles, because that sounds like a miserable dedication. If anything 1/3 of SP in AV seems a little more reasonable. And as such I would consider myself that.

1) I'm at demolitions V, grenadier 3, Assault Launcher Operation II, and weaponry V, and I'm a logibro. This means I have a lot that I can carry around when I want to nail a HAV, but I'm also annoyingly slow, and if infantry jump me I am super vulnerable. I also have significant dampening and detection skills letting me be pretty stealthy as I get into a good position. I have a few options for taking out HAVs, and it is much more doable in skirmish matches rather than ambush. I typically cannot grenade spam the good drivers and finish them off, especially if they have turret gunners. I find my most successful times are when I lead in with AV grenades and then use the SL. Starting with the SL gives away my position too soon normally. And even then, the lock time of a lot of the SLs means that if I'm in blaster range I will not survive more than 1 hit from out of cover.

2) The other aspect that you guys aren't really discussing either is the damage that is done before the AV even makes it to the HAV. Assuming that the HAV gets into its ideal scenarios, and its camping a CRU or objective, that is one location that the AV cannot spawn. This means that it must spawn (often when redlined) in a location that will put it nearly maximum distance from the HAV. The whole time the AVs team is then losing time/HP/clones due to the tank's superiority.

3) Why didn't you flipping address my initial point about damage done from either class? You know that tanks do 10x more damage in isk than they suffer over the long term.

4) Not to mention that their victories on the battlefield are strategic as well. They can hold down multiple points making every objective that they control for a minute give the rest of the team that much more freedom to roam. FYI in order to be victorious you need to kill 2 clones per minute for every minute that the enemy has an objective. If a tank holds down a CRU and objective for 3-4 minutes, and gets 15-20 kills, that's as good as getting +12 more kills due to the advantage. An AV player does not have that ability.

Assuming the average suit in a decent match is 20k isk. 20 kills is 400k isk, plus the advantage of holding down those objectives can be another 200,000+.

5) Additionally, it is the tank drivers who want to be the most aggressive that I find are the easiest ones to kill with my AV. If you want 30-40 kills you are putting yourself in at least 30-40 scenarios where you are in danger. I trapped a madruger in the mountain the other day between two stacks of proximity mines that he couldn't see or aim at with his turret. Then I proceeded to nail him with SL and AV grenades. He was helpless. It was his stupidity that lead him up the mountain all by himself, and my earned skill that let me win the battle in my favor. If you believe that you deserve to park where there are 4-5 red dots all around you all the time, think again.

You guys are involved in this rediculous Metagame already, knowing that when the purse strings open and Eve corps flood your big corps' wallets you will just buy your games with the HAVs that pwn. Guerrilla AV tactics will be the bread and butter to counter your guys' strategy and you are afraid that you won't be able to just buy your profit. Props to the propoganda that has already started, but it should be exposed for what it is.

Also: before people take a look at this thread and surmise that "the Community is up in arms about tank/AV balance..." 52 of the 130 posts at this point are from YOUR NAME HERE, and about another 50-60 are from just 2 or 3 others.

Your still going on about pub matches. Of course tanks will be op.

Yes I do many you dedicated every bit of sp into AV, like kain spero.

Where do I go on about pub matches? CRU stomping? That is a factor that should be discussed, but isn't central to my argument. I like how you engage me constructively though...but not really.

There's a few issues with tanks I'd like to have a chat about...
Currently skilled AV can do terrible things to our tanks that will make us corner cry and hide behind the redline or simply die.
It takes only 1 mind you, and AV isn't a hard thing to skill into, the SP requirements are very low compared to tanks.
What I'd like to see is tanks have a double hp buff.
I think it would solve a lot of issues currently, Some AV things need looked at. AV grenades for 1, we don't even know how much damage they do, but its a lot....Swarm launchers need either a range reduction or damage decrease. Yes yes people will say they do nothing, that's because your shooting a shield tank, they're made to resist missiles. Armor, not at all. Proto is ridiculous, even advanced your looking at 300 damage per missile times 6 missiles times 4 in a clip...

Point 3 was IMO your reference to pub matches with no AV skills.

I'm at work so when I go on break again, I will be more constructive.

That's fine, but I still think it applies. If we'd see that stats about what tanks destroy in corp matches vs. how often they are destroyed it wouldn't be a whole lot different. They are used differently in corp matches I assume, anyway. They are probably seen as more expendable, and their loss is probably less grieved, and likely insured by the corp anyway. If you are pulling 1 mill isk tanks for a 2 mill bounty match, though...props to you...but that still seems foolish.

Thread was long but a good read.

My opinions
Armor overall needs a major fix (come on CCP this needs to happen EVE side too)
Shields needs some improvement on collision damage (though should take a bit more damage than armor)
Shield counters needs to be in place

Millitia AV options needs to be either nerfed or removed entirely (*free swarms* *nom nom armor*)
Also saying that there are militia tanks that are cheap both ISK and SP wise so we should have some way of countering them
is stupid that's like saying
"you can have a militia dropsuit so why can't we have a militia OP launcher?"
They are hulls people not turrets.

Ty for reading through it all lol. Most people just post about things that have already been discussed elsewhere in thread.

It has become a long read since last night.