Why are you always complaining about your incompetence with HAVs?

Stack Hardeners and you can become invisible.

So you are hoping your constant QQing will fix them?

They have a counter already, it's called going round a corner

Tanks are more balanced than they've ever been. Steamrolling pub matches until someone decides to put a stop to it, switches to av and they run off. Just count yourselfs lucky that tanks don't have the same effect as my dropship, 30 seconds and the entire teams switched to AV. I use it as my main tactic in giving the team the advantage. The enemy team isn't half as effective whilst they're all running round with militia swarms

Allow tanks 80gj turrets to look down lower
have some type of collision damage to enemy infantry who even grace moving tank treads
^^^
THIS PLEASE

Naa only if your close enough to the shooter. The missiles are dumb and fire straight into anything that gets into the LOS

Nothing is wrong, they just need to have ammo. Laser weapons are suppose to be ammoless not large turrets. What if eve online worked that way.

Battleships and capitals don't use ammo, pppssffttt. Missle tanks should have ammo, then they would be balanced, and couold kill agian. We have ananohives, it'll be a little harder, require more teamwork.

Gotta say, it depends on the tank. Some tanks I can melt without reloading. Decent tanks I can't do squat to. Using proto swarms 6x 300 dmg, so obv raw damage is like 2k including skills. But given that you have a base resist especially on sheild, your passive recharge and your boosters. A well tanked sheild tank laughs me off even when I'm lobbing av's at it.

Obviously you've never played with swarms :-)

Also I had suyra before the wipe, and was pretty leet with it. Reason I quit tanks is there was no fun in stomping over and over again. Only fun I used to have was chasing round other tanks. My dual large reppers on my madruger just tanked damage, reminded me of my hyperion, shame you can't fit cap boosters!! Or have cap for that matter :-p

You might be right, but still if your well tanked either you have a 8k or more buffer, not including resistances. Or you have awesome resistances and reppers. Either way, your not getting solo'd

1. Double HP? lolno , a bigger buff to marauders yes but not double HP thats dumb

2. AV nades dmg is fine, the range u can toss those things at needs reducing

3. Decrease Missile dmg a bit so they wont 1 shot armor tanks like before, increase splash radius , make em shoot straighter, problem solved

4. Rails are fine as is

5. Collision dmg in general needs to be fixed, cant be hittin small bumps and losing a bunch of shields an ****

6. Swarms need a drastic range reduction or have to maintain a lockon to reach that far. This would diminish the bs, lockon behind cover peek a boo bs along with firing swarms all the ******* way from deployment to ******* C on the construction map.

7. FGs fine. agreed.

8. Shield Hardeners buffed to 15-20 secs, cooldown is fine. Shield tanks arent meant to sit in a hotzone sponging too much dmg.

9. Agreed on kb/m being faster than controller bs needs to be fixed

10. Never played with mouse but here the turrets move slow with it.

11. Marauders need seige modules ASAP to set it apart from standard tanks. Atm its just a beefed up standard tank but not by that much.


Also side note, there is also alot of bs that gives bonus dmg to armor tanks but atm no shield specific infantry AV weapon (no the plasma launcher is not shield oriented its a Hybrid weapon so equal dmg)

I dont know how good LRs are at AV vs proper fitted tanks but i doubt it could be that useful

You said discussion, I'm discussing :-)

I don't see any armour tanks if I'm honest. But don't see how swarms that do 1800 dmg can take out 7k armour at 50% res in 2 shots. If they do, then your right, it needs to change. Not because its OP, because its buggy. It mathematically makes 0 sense

Even with 2 proto's, with proto swarms that's 2100ish. Still shouldn't be anywhere near 2 shotting a decently fit tank. Let alone one with 7k at 50% res. and if it is, then again I apologise to the OP and agree, it's broken and the damage needs FIXING not nerfing

Hey im just here to roll.... i say leave tanks the way they are, introduce automatic forge gun, LAV mounted swarm or anti armor blasters. Also knova knives that deal explosive dmg, HMG that shoots explosive rounds, lower the WP needed for an OB to 500 and then name the game call of AV.....

I guess if they've gone to the extent of 3 proto damage mods and proto launchers, meaning they must be using proto suit? (Maybe not I'm guessing at last bit but I know how hard they are to fit onto stuff)

Let's say it takes 5 seconds to lock and fire each shot. That's 15 seconds for 3 volleys to be in the air
414 repaired per large repper without skills per 3second pulse 5 pulses max
2000+ repaired in 15 seconds
+ 50% hardeners is 3kish ehp

So with 7k plus 2k repped plus res = 13500ish ehp without shields

3 vollys of swarms with proto launcher and proto suit packing 3 proto dmg mods(these are what needs fixing)

=7000ish ehp lost. Unless they hit u on the weak spot, which I'm not too sure about but if its 30% then ok it's 9100ish.

But if someone goes to the trouble of using 150k glass cannon voulnerable to everything on the bf, then yes I think 3 shots should have you running for cover

I would also like the ability to fit a tank without secondary turrets

Would an extra high or low on the proto tanks help with the AV? The only prob i see with buffing or nerfing is no matter what something will always be unbalanced. I do agree that dmg mods are stupid right now. fix that, and maybe we wont need to have anything nerfed or buffed.

I totally get where your coming from, and yeh if there's one proto 150k av guy shooting you and a free militia, and you stick your head out long enough for them to get 3 - 4 shots of each then your dead.

I wouldn't have thought you'd meet many full proto av guys though. He'll even when I use the aurum version of proto swarm I use it on a basic suit so I can only fit 1 damage mod, because its to expensive to loose over and over again in pub matches. Trying to get that glass cannon into position for the kill on a tank whizing round the bf is extremely hard. If your fitted with full proto at like 150k and you do that every match, your gonna run outta funds pretty darn quick.

Corp matches are when proto av will be mainly used, and at the minute you have 2 squads. So likelihood of 1 team having more than 1 dedicated av player seems low.

I'm not saying I think your wrong, I'm just saying there's 2 sides to every argument

Boe boes for me now anyways. Look forward to playing with ya's on the bf. hf dude

"thanks for the hate in advance" haha love it I like how you covered everything in the area of vehicles and anti vehicles. One thing I know I can definitely agree on is the atv grenades just being way to strong. Swarm launchers and forge guns are suppose to be a primary weapon to hit vehicles with atv grenades are suppose to be a secondary not something players use as a primary and can just spam with nanohives.

Nobody should ever not have to use some sort of cover, tanks are no exception. The only real Av problem is with the Av nades which have crazy far homing

Only a minor issue at best, but not broken like Av nades

Everything else I either don't have any comment for, or agree with. I am somewhat skilled in AV, nothing heavy. Also somewhat skilled in HAV, defiantly not a name your going to remember as a HAV driver.

I think at MOST tanks could use a 1/3 boost in HP. Rockets I don't have experience with. I have heard everyone complain about them though. I wouldn't mind seeing them with shorter range rather than a DPS nerf.

I think AV grenades need to focus on armor damage just like flux grenades focus on shields.

I think their damage type should be changed and therefore lowering their damage bonus vs armor

If they called it magnetic, rather than homing, and it only had a 1-2 meter pull then I think that would be good.

The answer to that is to raise their overall damage

tanks are fine although the malitia forge has to be nerfed or gotten rid of entirely

1800? Are you crazy? Yes discuss we must lol.

300x6x4 x30%

Is 9360 damage per clip

50% harder is 4680 per clip.

30% more damage if shot in the back of a tank is

6084 damage per clip.

3042 per 2 shots so ya 3 shots will do it.

When first one hits 99% of the time the rest are already in the air.

God forbid you have 1 more swarm guy somewhere.

So in your thoughts, should 1 Av kid be able to do this?

And that's if I have both hardners running and not waiting for one to cool

Add 2% damage per skill level of swarm pro or advanced logi suit can stack 1 more complex mod on as well.

This is the CBR-7 Dark I'm taking damage from memory from

the damage is perfect between all of the av BESIDES the highest prototype forge. The proto forge has more dps than a tank turret. WTF. AV nades are very inbalanced. the automatic tracking and magnet feature is nonesense. swarms are missiles and should not go 80 degrees around a corner. realism fail.

yeah.. the assult forge.. thats the one.. its rapid fire

oh.. and an eject button would be great for dumping blueberrys to fight the av

I disagree. Swarms might be strong when loaded with mods, but every infantry on the bf will tear u up in 1 second. Even at 400 armour ur movement will be nerfed to hell and still be an easy target. AV is a hard counter to tanks and shame on tanks who don't have inf support.

oh yeah agreed

yeah.. true dat..
I only put sp into tanks. got about 3 1/2 mil in it. gotta pretty good feel for hav and av

I was pounding an armor tank with an assault forge fit tonight. He Large Blaster-ed me once. Came back, died from a a bad move on my part. Came back again and moved smart this time chasing him out of the urban area... then a swarm launcher stole my kill.

Sometimes this game...

The weird thing is if he hadn't backed up in some containers and simply drove away he would have lived. It was a well fitted tank that managed the DPS well. There were even two good options for easy escape. He should probably try listening to "The Gambler" by Kenney Rodgers.

Interesting discussion.

I presume you all already have the expectation that CCP won't listen, or will fumble it?

1. u can thank the community for forcing most tankers to sit back and hill snipe. Blaster tanks cant do that

2.swarms still bend around corners and seeing as swarms do bonus dmg to the SLOWER tank its harder to get away from them even when they lock onto u from across the map

3. tanks can even hide? pretty sure u can OB a tank thats sitting hiding still.

Try again with a better counter argument.

LOL. Blown up enough tanks solo to tell you what you are saying applies to only rail tanks. A full squad of 2-3 scouts running packed AV nades can just run up behind any tank within the red lines or outside the red lines and blow it up. Its way to easy blowing up tanks. LMFAO.

I have no idea where you are driving your tanks, but a swarm guy cannot get long range locks if he loses LOS due to the tank moving. Being out in the open is your own damnable fault, just like infantry in the open will get snipped. I find it hit and miss whether a swarm will 90 degree around a corner and most of the time one or two missiles hit something on the way, the missiles have a pretty slow travel time and compared to the forge **** poor dps. The forge can also hurt infantry, unless there is a supply depot for easy access, swarms are weak as hell to infantry.
I still find it a little BS that a swarm User will get a full clip volley at a tank at 300-400 meters. That is just a bad tank driver and a bad ground team. In Corp battles it will be very hard to be AV, unless your mates are very good slayers.

Had a 5 mil corp match last night. The enemy got 2 tanks on the field. It didnt even cross their red line. BS!

Either tanks are weak or packed AV nades are strong.

PS: Waiting for the CCP overnerf SoonGäó!

Here is the low down;-

Packed AV nades;- 100000 SP
Minimum tank requirements (L1);- 450000 SP

Its easier to make a tank go boom than build it up. I see a major descrapancy here.

There are some things you're right about.

Collision damage needs to be reduced.

Railgun Splash Radius needs to be increased.

But Missiles following you around a corner is an over exaggeration. I've hopped in a friend's Hybrid HAV multiple times before and I've never experience that with Missiles, once I got around a corner I was safe. I was probably hit once or twice and if they can hit you anymore times than that before you turn a corner, you probably dont deserve to drive that HAV. I was a victim to the ridicilous collision damage though, backed up and was 1-hit killed by a wall while I was at half shields and full armour.

I also have an AV Fitting, lvl 3 Swarm Operation with AV grenades, I have not once experienced Swarm turning a corner.

You're just over exaggerating on that bit, Swarmers and AV grenades do what they were made to do, destroy vehicles.

You want to double the HP of a tank? Fine, remove all damage reduction mods and reduce the repair speed of all tank HP.

Remove all resistance mods and half the HP recovery of all tank types, shield AND armor, and I'll agree everything else you mention in this post. How's that for coming to an agreement?

Yes armour fittings are underpowered.

But you've got to ask yourself in the first place, why are you building armour fittings if you know they're underpowered?

I think the blaster tank should still be pretty vulnerable to AV grenades as it is THE infantry tank. Maybe the railgun tanks should get a nerf to putting blaster/missile turrets on them, but get a bigger resistance to AV as they wouldn't be working on infantry much any way.

What would be a nice stat from CCP.

isk destroyed by tanks vs. tanks destroyed...

If it is much more than an order of magnitude in favor of the tanks I'd say there ABSOLUTELY is no need to nerf AV. If it is in favor of AV destroying tanks, thats probably another story.

But my guess is that all of the pubstomping with tanks means that the curve is just broken for you tankers who want to eat AND have your cake.

I never said armour tanks were fine as is, dont know where you got that impression from.

Diversity? Its very careless spending if you feel the need to invest into armour tanks just to keep the 'Diversity' of tanks alive.

Best of luck with that! All you are gonna get is "Boo hoo hoo! that big bad Soma with 600 shield and 2000 armor kept killing me in my Enforcer suit. I fired at him and but didnt do a thing. I went 0-17 and he went 52 -1! Nerf that tank!"

First:

If you are able to get within throwing distance of an infantry slaughtering blaster turret with 2 small turrets attached watching all around the main, then you deserve some boosted damage. Swarms and forge guns can be used from FAR away, so since AV grenades put you in more danger than other AV weapons, they SHOULD yield more damage. And let's not get into the big talk about nade spamming, we've gone over it SO much. If you are willing to run your tank into an area that hasn't been cleared by your team first, then you deserve any AV spamming you get, no matter how strong it is. Oh, but it's a pub match? Don't trust your blue dots? Don't run your tank solo then. Anyway, not getting into that, just addressing points.

Second:

Tank MINIMUM requirements- 0 SP. I have a tank. I have invested 0 SP into it. And it still holds up well to packed AV grenades. I spec Methana LAV's, so I have lvl 1 basic armor adaptation, so that also gives me a bonus I guess. Ok, so how much was that? 30,000 ish for lvl 1?

Ok, so I have a militia tank with 5500 ish armor, 11% passive armor damage reduction mod, 25% active armor damage reduction mod, 9% damage control unit, and a heavy repair mod. It cost me 30,000 ish SP and takes both swarms and basic/packed AV nades like a champ.

But I get your point, however tier 1 gear is supposed to be able to take out tier 1 vehicles. That's just the way it goes. If you don't like AV grenades, read the first part of this post labeled "First", it'll give you some pointers on how to avoid them.

Lastly:

AV grenades are low SP vs tanks. However you are giving up a slot in your setup in the HOPES that a vehicle will pass nearby. If one doesn't, you've lost your ability to use real grenades to flush out enemies or to drop the shields of that B-Series that's coming around the corner while you are still recovering from the last fire fight.

Blaster turrets have a longer range than any player can throw a grenade (unless they are on top of a mountain or something). If you let yourself get within their range, it's not their fault, it's yours. And if they are able to sneak up on you, that's them being good at sneaking, not AV grenades being OP.

Now hopefully CCP can spend some time and scrim through all these nice posts out here and put a balance in place.

But betcha $20.00 the overnerf hammer is coming

Tank are fine, blaster a bit op but generally fine

Define 'skilled AV' please, because I don't think it has been yet. Is this someone who dedicates all of their SP to walking around and killing vehicles, because that sounds like a miserable dedication. If anything 1/3 of SP in AV seems a little more reasonable. And as such I would consider myself that.

1) I'm at demolitions V, grenadier 3, Assault Launcher Operation II, and weaponry V, and I'm a logibro. This means I have a lot that I can carry around when I want to nail a HAV, but I'm also annoyingly slow, and if infantry jump me I am super vulnerable. I also have significant dampening and detection skills letting me be pretty stealthy as I get into a good position. I have a few options for taking out HAVs, and it is much more doable in skirmish matches rather than ambush. I typically cannot grenade spam the good drivers and finish them off, especially if they have turret gunners. I find my most successful times are when I lead in with AV grenades and then use the SL. Starting with the SL gives away my position too soon normally. And even then, the lock time of a lot of the SLs means that if I'm in blaster range I will not survive more than 1 hit from out of cover.

2) The other aspect that you guys aren't really discussing either is the damage that is done before the AV even makes it to the HAV. Assuming that the HAV gets into its ideal scenarios, and its camping a CRU or objective, that is one location that the AV cannot spawn. This means that it must spawn (often when redlined) in a location that will put it nearly maximum distance from the HAV. The whole time the AVs team is then losing time/HP/clones due to the tank's superiority.

3) Why didn't you flipping address my initial point about damage done from either class? You know that tanks do 10x more damage in isk than they suffer over the long term.

4) Not to mention that their victories on the battlefield are strategic as well. They can hold down multiple points making every objective that they control for a minute give the rest of the team that much more freedom to roam. FYI in order to be victorious you need to kill 2 clones per minute for every minute that the enemy has an objective. If a tank holds down a CRU and objective for 3-4 minutes, and gets 15-20 kills, that's as good as getting +12 more kills due to the advantage. An AV player does not have that ability.

Assuming the average suit in a decent match is 20k isk. 20 kills is 400k isk, plus the advantage of holding down those objectives can be another 200,000+.

5) Additionally, it is the tank drivers who want to be the most aggressive that I find are the easiest ones to kill with my AV. If you want 30-40 kills you are putting yourself in at least 30-40 scenarios where you are in danger. I trapped a madruger in the mountain the other day between two stacks of proximity mines that he couldn't see or aim at with his turret. Then I proceeded to nail him with SL and AV grenades. He was helpless. It was his stupidity that lead him up the mountain all by himself, and my earned skill that let me win the battle in my favor. If you believe that you deserve to park where there are 4-5 red dots all around you all the time, think again.

You guys are involved in this rediculous Metagame already, knowing that when the purse strings open and Eve corps flood your big corps' wallets you will just buy your games with the HAVs that pwn. Guerrilla AV tactics will be the bread and butter to counter your guys' strategy and you are afraid that you won't be able to just buy your profit. Props to the propoganda that has already started, but it should be exposed for what it is.

Also: before people take a look at this thread and surmise that "the Community is up in arms about tank/AV balance..." 52 of the 130 posts at this point are from YOUR NAME HERE, and about another 50-60 are from just 2 or 3 others.

Where do I go on about pub matches? CRU stomping? That is a factor that should be discussed, but isn't central to my argument. I like how you engage me constructively though...but not really.

That's fine, but I still think it applies. If we'd see that stats about what tanks destroy in corp matches vs. how often they are destroyed it wouldn't be a whole lot different. They are used differently in corp matches I assume, anyway. They are probably seen as more expendable, and their loss is probably less grieved, and likely insured by the corp anyway. If you are pulling 1 mill isk tanks for a 2 mill bounty match, though...props to you...but that still seems foolish.

Thread was long but a good read.

My opinions
Armor overall needs a major fix (come on CCP this needs to happen EVE side too)
Shields needs some improvement on collision damage (though should take a bit more damage than armor)
Shield counters needs to be in place

Millitia AV options needs to be either nerfed or removed entirely (*free swarms* *nom nom armor*)
Also saying that there are militia tanks that are cheap both ISK and SP wise so we should have some way of countering them
is stupid that's like saying
"you can have a militia dropsuit so why can't we have a militia OP launcher?"
They are hulls people not turrets.

It is a great thread with a lot of ideas, and YOUR NAME HERE is a great person to discuss things in a mature manner with. Hat's off to you for that sir.

o/

Smh

Even if im not always agree with him, his post are constructive and always make debate +1

No.... but there is the Dire Sentinel starter fit which has a permanent militia forge gun.

Either way, no AV needs to be nerfed unless they include even better weapon unlocks for skilling into that weapons proficiency skill. In that case, sure, nerf the lower level forge guns and swarms, but give us even MORE powerful weapons than we have now once proficiency is maxed.

As I've said in a couple threads now the problem is people were crying nerf tanks while only having militia and standard tier stuff. As we all know from pub matches standard AV does not do much against a proto tank (proto mod fitted tanks) but will take them down if there is a full squad of them . The problrms start when the proto gear starts bein brought out in corp matches (not many people will use proto AV in a pub) I'd be more inclined to nerf AV as to help out dropship brothers a bit as they get 1 shoted or 2 shoted by proto AV at their top level. If we are not nerfing the AV I would call for a rebalance on all vehicle modules people seem to forgot tanks are not the only things being shot by AV.

yeah pretty much I remember the build where we had free militia tanks and dropships. oh boy did my clan despise me for my choice of driving tanks (had actually chosen to drive tanks in build before E3) yes they were probably a little too strong after the AV nerf that build but before that it was fine. anyways as much as I'd hate to suggest it (can't have 2 good ideas in one day can I) maybe we should make a new thread and discuss limiting pub matches to adv and below gear as most of the population are not equipped to handle proto tanks and it wouldn't be fair to allow other proto stuff without allowing proto tanks. yes this would limit modules aswell no complex damage mods no complex armor plates no vk.0's(also proto level aur gear). I am aware about the single shard thing of EVE but isn't it also true that some of the biggest ships in EVE cannot go into high sec (in my view pubs are high sec). this would show how weak tanks are to the same tier AV and would also help the newberries. maybe we should wait until there is more then just pubs and corp matches to limit gear tiers in pubs though. this suggestion would not fix tanks but it would do wonders for stoping the pub stomping (which lets face it is boring for both sides)

After playing the role of tanker for a day, I've come up with the conclusion that they're not OP, it just requires brains and teamwork to take one out.

I had MLT on the opposing team trying to kill my with their ARs, just because you get a hitmarker doesn't mean its doing anything, a smart player almost ripped me apart with his Forge Gun (Half my shield gone, thats a lot for a Shield fitting)

The most damage that was done to me was through collision, a teammate rammed right into the back of my tank and took me down to armour, 3000 Shield HP gone in a split second.

I also played the role of AV and my team managed to take out one of the Imp's Standard tanks and got a SVTB tank down to its last bit of HP.

If a HAV is killing you over and over again, its because you're giving it the chance.

Dont run across open ground when there is a HAV about.

Dont try take me out with ARs or other weapons that use bullets, for obvious reasons.

Dont stand in front of me trying to get a lock-on with your swarmer, chances are I'd have killed you before you got a lock.

Do use your brain, attack tanks from a blindspot, Swarmers are homing missiles, you can shoot at a tank from inside cover.

Do make some effective HAV fits, Forge Gun with Complex Heavy Damage mods, Packed AV Grenades, just be prepared for a battle against a tank. The MLT anti-AV fitting is not enough.

whats with all these new tank threads why can't we all just post in some that all have good info in them

Tanks are OP +1

Tanks are still OP!!!!!!
What we need is a forge swarm launcher..
Or a single shot forge that takes 15min to charge and lock on to a tank, it does 100, 000 dmg.
Or av grenades that can fly.
Oh and boost all tank highs/lows slots by 3 on lvl 3 tanks to make it even.

I have restored balance to dust.