I see you using the ever popular 1 v 1 concept for your argument. Players, who actually play as a team, will figure out rather quickly, by watching battle feeds and through direct experience, who a TKer is in their current match and will declare them as a target to their squad, if not their whole team. Then the TKer will have blues and reds hunting them.

TKing will have much higher risks than many believe. All these calls for penalties just shows me that many people lack critical thinking. When FF goes live and you get intentionally TKed, how about you just remember who it is so you can gank them whenever you see them or even, *gasp* dare I suggest it, offer a reward for confirmed TK kills against the person who Intentionally TKed you to a state of QQ.

NotEmptySelf-quoteing

and thus the lynch mob formed...

Exactly.

I see you using the ever popular 1 v 1 concept for your argument. Players, who actually play as a team, will figure out rather quickly, by watching battle feeds and through direct experience, who a TKer is in their current match and will declare them as a target to their squad, if not their whole team. Then the TKer will have blues and reds hunting them.

TKing will have much higher risks than many believe. All these calls for penalties just shows me that many people lack critical thinking. When FF goes live and you get intentionally TKed, how about you just remember who it is so you can gank them whenever you see them or even, *gasp* dare I suggest it, offer a reward for confirmed TK kills against the person who Intentionally TKed you to a state of QQ.

And this is exactly what people will do. They'll go play another game, and Dust will fail because it will be rife with TK'ers whom nobody wants deal with, and then it'll just be you and a handful of other people murdering each other in the MCC spawn, gloating about how hardcore you are for enduring the "New Eden experience".

If CCP's goal is to make a game that people want to play, they should ignore the kind of sentiment you've expressed. It's possible to have a more unforgiving sort of game that does have friendly fire, without crippling the game through not doing anything to stop people from maliciously teamkilling to their heart's content. There is a middle-ground between the thoughtless elitism you've expressed, and the rather shallow life of no FF at all.

Just to be clear though, it'd be banning for numerous obviously malicious instances of team killing. What I've suggested is a blatant copy of the friendly fire system used by the free-to-play game World of Tanks, and it works perfectly in that game. It's the only way to prevent teamkilling from ruining the game. Without eventual machine bans, people will TK on alts, TK on alt PSN accounts, and otherwise simply circumvent the typical penalties. There needs to be something that actually matters at risk, otherwise many people will continuously TK, and the system will be a huge detriment to the game, rather than a valuable addition.

And just who do you expect to chase after the griefer with you when nobody is on team chat?
How do you expect to form a lynch mob?
How many players stare at the kill feed instead of the radar map or the scene in front of them?

If the griefer targets a small number of mercs in any given match they will only have to worry about those few.
They won't care about being killed, that's just a delicious form of attention to them and costs them next to nothing in ISK.

The griefer will just run round playing tag with your squad and delight in distracting you from the match.

Bounties would be a new trophy for a griefer. "Hey, I pissed this guy off so much he put out a contract on me!"

And then he goes and creates another alt to continue his fun.

You have to realize that you can't win. The griefer just gets you to play his game where he wins either way.

Dust is the ground side of Eve and Eve is the space side of Dust. Not the same environment but, to me, it's the same game as each side can affect the other.

I have no problem with being able to kick someone from your squad, before or after battle, that's what preforming squads is for. It is, however, unrealistic to expect to be able to block them from joining the team your squad is on if there's an available slot. If you're so worried about getting TK griefed with no recourse to retaliate or defend, them maybe you shouldn't take anything more advanced than the free suits out in pub matches if FF is implemented for them. Be part of the solution, not part of the problem.

Dust will not fail due to FF; don't be ridiculous. There are plenty of FPSs out there which have FF mode or are completely FF, some of them AAA. And you never ever hear anyone quitting due to FF.

Granted, in Dust there is more to lose from TK. But as his been pointed out in the OP and other posts and threads, there are many ways to fix it with in-game mechanics, or coordination.

I ran my PS3 as a dedicated Warhawk server many time and I always ran it with FF on. Didn't get many players. Just proved to me that a lot of PvP FPS players lack the intestinal fortitude to go all the way. I'm seeing a lot of that here.

Saying FF in pub matches will kill Dust is the same, in my opinion, as all those people that said it would kill Eve.

You're right, it won't, but that's because CCP knows better.

Other FPS games with FF have significant differences. Servers you can be kicked/banned from by the host, optional non-FF servers you can play on instead, and in particular, you don't actually lose anything in those games when you die, other than your time. The game I compared Dust to -- World of Tanks -- is the best comparison there is. Both games make a big deal out of making and losing money, both games are free to play with a single server (although WoT has a single server per region instead). You can't compare a game like Battlefield 3 to something like Dust. Someone starts TK'ing in BF3, you shrug your shoulders, maybe say a swear or two, and either try to ignore it or move to a different server. In Dust, you can't help but play on a FF server if they were to make FF for Instant Battle games. And each death is, potentially, the loss of ISK.

The solutions I've seen, the ones that act as if rampant TK'ing isn't a problem, and have some pithy comment about how "New Eden" works -- as if that's at all relevant or even accurate -- aren't sensible solutions. Either CCP makes teamkilling heavily penalized, or it keeps FF off of Instant Battles, or it accepts that its game will be far less popular than it would if it had no FF on Instant Battle servers, and indulges the inner child of people who go about that TK'ing business. Unless the penalties are such that making an alt PSN account and TK'ing with throw-away characters would substantially endanger your main PSN account with your real Dust characters, FF' for Instant Battles would ruin the game.

You're right, it won't, but that's because CCP knows better.

Other FPS games with FF have significant differences. Servers you can be kicked/banned from by the host, optional non-FF servers you can play on instead, and in particular, you don't actually lose anything in those games when you die, other than your time. The game I compared Dust to -- World of Tanks -- is the best comparison there is. Both games make a big deal out of making and losing money, both games are free to play with a single server (although WoT has a single server per region instead). You can't compare a game like Battlefield 3 to something like Dust. Someone starts TK'ing in BF3, you shrug your shoulders, maybe say a swear or two, and either try to ignore it or move to a different server. In Dust, you can't help but play on a FF server if they were to make FF for Instant Battle games. And each death is, potentially, the loss of ISK.

The solutions I've seen, the ones that act as if rampant TK'ing isn't a problem, and have some pithy comment about how "New Eden" works -- as if that's at all relevant or even accurate -- aren't sensible solutions. Either CCP makes teamkilling heavily penalized, or it keeps FF off of Instant Battles, or it accepts that its game will be far less popular than it would if it had no FF on Instant Battle servers, and indulges the inner child of people who go about that TK'ing business. Unless the penalties are such that making an alt PSN account and TK'ing with throw-away characters would substantially endanger your main PSN account with your real Dust characters, FF' for Instant Battles would ruin the game.



It has nothing to do with fortitude. The only people who enjoy being killed by people on their own team is... well, nobody. Some people may like to do it, but nobody likes being randomly shot in the back by a supposed ally. So yeah, amazing as it must be, most people prefer to play the game, rather than be randomly killed by people they have no way of identifying.

And the EVE comparison is fairly ignorant of how EVE actually works. Most EVE players play in Empire space. It's safe there, unless you're flying something compelling enough to attract a suicide gank squad, and unless you're in a corp that goes to war or recruits new players only to PK them. For the majority of EVE players, they've probably never been killed by another player outside of a wardec. Now, that might change a bit with bounties, but in any case, it's not like new players spawn in nullsec with their pants around their ankles. The idea that EVE is this brutally hostile and totally crazy charnel house of players killing players is mistaken. Anyone who wants to avoid dying to other players in EVE can easily do so, while still playing the game and having fun.

Look... I want to win the match. I don't have time for 10 y/o TKers. You want to shoot at your own teammates you do it with your corp. ...so merc battles and corp battles fine whatever. In a public game I'm just sitting in for some casual killing. I still want to win. If somebody kills me on my own team I should be able to boot them from the match. If we have a field marshal up in the MCV that should simply be a matter of not letting them spawn in a new clone when they die. That's control you should have in a match. Don't tell me what I "should" or "shouldn't" do. I don't give a snip. If there's an exploitable problem one of two things can happen: CCP can recognize the problem and work on fixing it, or they can say "working as intended" and do nothing. What' I'm saying is pub matches are going to be no fun at all if TKers can just kill blues at will without repercussions. If all is as intended, wtf do I care? I can just create an alt and become part of the problem... and in so doing I'll actually be part of the solution, because once all the new people trying DUST start getting killed over and over again by their own guys, they won't want to play anymore. That's a problem for CCP. This whole conversation is stupid imho. If they allow blue on blue in public matches everyone will lose. One way or another. CCP MUST see that.

You know... the more I think about it the more I think I'm wasting keystrokes. There's no way CCP will allow allow TKing w/o consequence in public matches. They'd torp their own game before it even launched.

Either you didn't read what I wrote, or you just wrote two long paragaphs agreeing with my arguments.

One of the main points and the original reason I wrote the OP was the notion that people will start TKing players left and right. This is a ridiculous proposition. It will happen, but there's no way it will become an epidemic due to numerous reasons I and others have listed in previous posts.

A small note: you can switch to another server in Dust. Server defined as understood in FPS games.

I know all too well how Eve works. I've had three years experience in Eve and spent a significant amount of that time living in wormhole space. No-one is safe in Eve even if you're the nicest carebear in the galaxy, someone will likely get around to ganking you sooner or later. No, Eve isn't always a brutal carnage filled game but it isn't safe. FF isn't going to be the epidemic many think it will be even if it did come to pub matches.

I read what you wrote and I told you why you're wrong. If two paragraphs is too long for you then feel free to not respond to things I write in the future. Sometimes I say things with more than a few words. Welp.

People will TK left-and-right because Dust isn't like any random FPS you've ever played. Even in those games, people absolutely do TK maliciously fairly often. In Dust, however, it will be far worse, because people will know that they're causing real harm to a person's character by costing them money when they die. TK'ing members of rival corps would be pretty much SOP for many groups out there as well. You really have no idea how bad TK'ing will be if CCP were to take your hands-off approach.

If they add friendly fire to Instant Battle games, then no, you can't move to a new server. You can quit your game, but your next game would invariably include FF as well. My point, which I thought I made fairly clear, was that in other FPS games where it's a bunch of separate servers with different configurations, players are free to choose the ruleset that suits them best. People wouldn't have that choice with Dust (as nobody would ever voluntarily play on a FF server if they could help it, aside from people looking to play what's essentially a free-for-all).

I read what you wrote and I told you why you're wrong. If two paragraphs is too long for you then feel free to not respond to things I write in the future. Sometimes I say things with more than a few words. Welp.

People will TK left-and-right because Dust isn't like any random FPS you've ever played. Even in those games, people absolutely do TK maliciously fairly often. Many of those servers with FF enabled require admins to kick/ban people for TK'ing. In Dust, however, it will be far worse, because people will know that they're causing real harm to a person's character by costing them money when they die. TK'ing members of rival corps would be pretty much SOP for many groups out there as well. You really have no idea how bad TK'ing will be if CCP were to take your hands-off approach.

If they add friendly fire to Instant Battle games, then no, you can't move to a new server. You can quit your game, but your next game would invariably include FF as well. My point, which I thought I made fairly clear, was that in other FPS games where it's a bunch of separate servers with different configurations, players are free to choose the ruleset that suits them best. People wouldn't have that choice with Dust (as nobody would ever voluntarily play on a FF server if they could help it, aside from people looking to play what's essentially a free-for-all).



Your odds of being killed as a new player by enemy players is basically zero unless you wander off into nullsec or something. People aren't going to get popped by CONCORD over someone in a T1 frigate. And as that new player gets to understand the world, he'll know about the various tricks that people use to get players to make themselves attackable, or the kinds of ships people would gank, or to avoid warring corps if they don't want to fight other players. EVE is pretty safe unless you do things that make you a target.

And that's why FF in Instant Battles isn't the same, as a person playing Dust for the first time ever would conceivably be maliciously TK'd in their first game, if CCP did what you people want and didn't penalize TK'ing at all essentially. Someone getting killed repeatedly by their own team before they even have any idea what's going on would lead to a pretty quick deletion of the game, as the disgruntled newbie moves on to greener pastures.

I read both your posts in entirety. You yet again just keep rehashing your argument, and don't bring any new insight into the discussion. I've already responded to all your items in my previous posts and I'm not going to repeat them, and others have also addressed your concerns.

People don't TK maliciously "fairly often" in other games; it's rather rare as I pointed out in another post (yet another one of these).

By moving to a new server I meant you can change to another game to leave the TKer behind. Duh. Other solutions have been posted in the thread. Even suggesting that FF would make the game FFA outs you as a clueless knee-jerk CoD gamer who doesn't know FF FPSs at all. In best case it is FUD, and we have too much of that with all the nerf discussions going on already.

I'm done with you. Have a nice day, good sir.

You obviously haven't hung around with some of the people I have in Eve if you think it doesn't happen. And if someone is coming in that's going to rage quit and delete after a bad battle or two, it won't make a difference if there's TK or not. Just think of all those players that did it when they found out they couldn't max out their characters in about a month, there were no titles, and no achievements, just to name a few.

But, like I said, carebears will have their high sec plus zone in pub battles as it looks highly unlikely that friendly fire will be turned on in pub matches.

You still state that if things don't go your way then you'll become part of the problem. The "They're doing it so I will too." syndrome. If that's really the way you think I can only hope a lot of people you know don't start jumping off bridges. And besides, yes, this is probably a waste of keystrokes because it doesn't look like CCP is going to implement FF in pub matches anyway. If they do I will be pleasantly surprised.

Your idea of a field marshal with the power to kick someone from a match is a really bad idea. That's one that will get exploited a lot. You'll get elitist FMs that'll kick people for many invalid reasons.

I can just see it...

You took my kill! *kick*
You don't have a mic! *kick*
I don't like your name! *kick*
I don't know you! *kick*
You killed me in a match three months ago! *kick*
That's my hack! *kick*
You died too many times! *kick*
I don't like your voice! *kick*
You're a girl! *kick*
I don't like your corp! *kick*
You're not part of my corp! *kick*

I've heard all that and more in games where a field commander had the power to remove someone from the field of play. You think the occasional TK is bad, That's worse. At least with TKers you have the option to retaliate, you could do nothing about a "field marshal".

The field marshal arbitrarily making that decision isn't what I had in mind (i brought that up as more of a lore/explanation angle). I'm not talking about re-inventing the wheel. On your second or third friendly kill the teammate you killed just gets a little "boot traitor? Y/N" option while re-spawning. That's all. ...and again, public matches are all that would really concern me... but having that as an option in any match should be a given.

Tell me how often people TK using numbers rather than words. Oh, that's right, you have no idea how often the TK beyond your own limited experience. So much for that.

I know what you meant when you said moving to a new server. And I specifically said that you can't move to a server that doesn't have FF, so unlike other FPS games, you can't avoid FF if you'd rather not deal with TK'ers that day.

I've never played CoD, but good guess. I suppose you using "CoD gamer" as an epithet for someone who disagrees with you outs you as something as well.

You should sit and think about what unrestricted TK'ing would mean for people who have personal or corp rivalries as well. Even if malicious TK'ing weren't something you'd get every game (and you would), corps which don't like each other and people who don't like each other would shoot each other in the back constantly. The game would be pretty unplayable if you ever had two squads from rival corps on the same team, as they'd start a TK'ing war that wouldn't finish until their team lost.



Unless you're mining in an exhumer or flying around a freighter, you are very unlikely to be killed, as you won't be worth anything. Try to remember that the point I'm making isn't that you will never ever die as a highsec non-warring player in EVE, just that it's highly unlikely, and compared to how rampant TK'ing would be in Dust should CCP be stupid enough to do what that Arramshdjadhsa person suggested. Dust would be far, far more unforgiving to new players if it had unfettered TK'ing.

There should be an auto kick so if some guy/gal goes on a rampage and kills 5 friendlies he/she should get the boot.

I know from experience that there are people who will run through high sec in cheap high damage ships blatting frigs and low end cruisers just for kill mails. I'm just saying that it happens more than you seem to be implying.

And I'm saying it happens far less than you'd get TK'd in Dust. The whole point is to smash to bits this false equivalency you've drawn between EVE and Dust with penalty-less FF turned on all the time. Dust would be far less forgiving to new players with FF on than EVE is to new players who may, very rarely, get killed flying in something like a newbie ship. That's my point. You aren't making Dust just like EVE by adding unrestricted FF on, you're making it far worse. Amahsjdhasd has zero clue what he's talking about.

TKing will happen, that's a given. Can't be helped. But the solution needs to come from the community in game, not through some unnecessary game mechanic that will penalize good players for the suicidal actions of idiots or suicide griefers as well as actual intentional TKers.

You get VTK/Auto Kick/Field Marshalled, a few times you'll end up on the other end of this conversation talking about how broken the mechanic is or how it was a bad idea to begin with because you got booted out for no good reason.

So Friendly Fire is finally coming to Dust. It's not something we should be concerned about.

Note that the exact way it is introduced has not been outlined yet, AFAIK. I hope it will be always on, but it might be on in Corp battles and nullsec only. Any WP/SP/ISK penalties (if any) has not been released, either, and I'd prefer to keep that discussion on another thread.

Here why we should welcome FF:

• Friendly Fire promotes more deliberate gameplay, and discourages spray-and-pray since you can't shoot everything that moves
• You will not get TKd all the time. I only play FF modes in FPSs, and I suffer a non-accidental TK perhaps every ten game sessions, and see them rarely
• Griefing happens. CCP might include Vote-To-Kick, which is in most FPSs. I'm ambivalent; it does help dealing with dicks, although is wide open to abuse by organized squads and corps VTKing people they don't like or if they want to make room for corpmates. VTK also doesn't fit EVE universe.
• Accidents happen to you and your teammates. L2P and HTFU; or better yet, laugh about it. Some of the funniest FPS memories I have are of TKs. Like that one time in TO:AOT I threw a grenade which bounced off a ceiling beam right in the middle of my team following me, killing four of them. I didn't even get votekicked, everyone was laughing so hard - this is on pub. Or that other time a teammate popped their head right in the center of my sights as I squeezed the trigger on my sniper rifle. Pop goes the head. Good times.
• TK is a perfectly valid and necessary tactic for corp spies, infiltrators, and assassins. In fact, it will allow for whole new avenues for gameplay we haven't seen in FPSs if CCP has the balls to introduce such contracts.
• TK is a perfectly valid way to deal with AFKers in some games. Not sure if there's a use for it in Dust since you have unlimited spawns and don't get dropped if you don't spawn since you're AFK.
• FF belongs in the ruthless EVE universe where every action has lasting repercussions. This is not your carebear FPS where death has no impact. [late addition to the list]
• And the most important lesson from my EVE days: if you can't afford to lose it, don't use it. It being a dropsuit or gear.

So someone gets kicked and they just queue up again, pull their militia stuff, and continue to TK. Or the team they're on, for whatever reason, doesn't kick them and they keep TK'ing there. In either case, the problem of malicious TK'ing is not solved. As for VTK being the "solution from the community", how many VTK's will snipers end up having directed at them out of spite? How many new players with a bad KDR will get booted? This system will be abused. We know it'll be abused, because it's abused every day on FPS servers which allow VTK.

In other words, your "solution" will actually not deter TK'ing whatsoever, will not punish TK'ing when it happens, and will in fact lead to even bigger problems, as now people can maliciously boot others from matches if they don't want to bother with repeatedly TK'ing them.

Just so we're clear on this, CCP is trying to make a game that people who don't necessarily have an antisocial personality disorder. Normal people are supposed to like to play this game. CCP is going to make its money back by getting people to really like Dust, such that they buy AUR and stuff. So maybe some solutions to the problem of FF other than what you and Amahadshj would be sensible.

And, to reiterate, there is already a game which is F2P, which is very similar to Dust in having earning money/experience for matches being a central part of the experience, which has FF. And the FF system they have is coupled with an intelligent and effective way for friendly damage and TK'ing to be automatically and appropriately punished. CCP doesn't need to look any further than World of Tanks to see a game with always-on FF, with zero cost for people to make an account and play, and which does not have any significant problem with TK'ers as a result.

Your fantasy about the solution coming from within the community, and involving a flawed voting system, are totally unneeded, even if they were sensible answers in the first place.

Let me tell you why there shouldn't be FF


If you wipe the floor with someone one game, he's on your team next game, how fun do you think he/she would think it to be to kill your proto suit as many times as he could while on your team?

For MD and LR users, you will be punished for your team running in front of you or getting in blast radius.

For tank drivers, please this is ridiculous.

For DS gunners, the missiles spitting out wherever they feel, ya that's fair.

Random grenades before a team mate dies kills your 200k suit, because he wants revenge and you happen to be taking that revenge for him.

AV grenades, will they seek friendly vehicles?

When your CRU is camped, there will be many casualties.

Teamwork will consist of staying away from each other for no accidents.

I could go on but eeeeh.