Put in a penalty for 100k ISK to the party you killed. If you run out of money you get ejected from the match.


As far as accidents, or suicides by running into your fire- well, check your background and exercise trigger control.

And the griefer with a full BPO suit will dance and laugh as you chase him around the map for killing your proto suit or stealing your Sagaris only to run it into the red zone.

It's attention and tears that they crave and your attempts at retaliation will just fuel their desires.

NotEmptySelf-quoteing

and thus the lynch mob formed...

And just who do you expect to chase after the griefer with you when nobody is on team chat?
How do you expect to form a lynch mob?
How many players stare at the kill feed instead of the radar map or the scene in front of them?

If the griefer targets a small number of mercs in any given match they will only have to worry about those few.
They won't care about being killed, that's just a delicious form of attention to them and costs them next to nothing in ISK.

The griefer will just run round playing tag with your squad and delight in distracting you from the match.

Bounties would be a new trophy for a griefer. "Hey, I pissed this guy off so much he put out a contract on me!"

And then he goes and creates another alt to continue his fun.

You have to realize that you can't win. The griefer just gets you to play his game where he wins either way.

You're right, it won't, but that's because CCP knows better.

Other FPS games with FF have significant differences. Servers you can be kicked/banned from by the host, optional non-FF servers you can play on instead, and in particular, you don't actually lose anything in those games when you die, other than your time. The game I compared Dust to -- World of Tanks -- is the best comparison there is. Both games make a big deal out of making and losing money, both games are free to play with a single server (although WoT has a single server per region instead). You can't compare a game like Battlefield 3 to something like Dust. Someone starts TK'ing in BF3, you shrug your shoulders, maybe say a swear or two, and either try to ignore it or move to a different server. In Dust, you can't help but play on a FF server if they were to make FF for Instant Battle games. And each death is, potentially, the loss of ISK.

The solutions I've seen, the ones that act as if rampant TK'ing isn't a problem, and have some pithy comment about how "New Eden" works -- as if that's at all relevant or even accurate -- aren't sensible solutions. Either CCP makes teamkilling heavily penalized, or it keeps FF off of Instant Battles, or it accepts that its game will be far less popular than it would if it had no FF on Instant Battle servers, and indulges the inner child of people who go about that TK'ing business. Unless the penalties are such that making an alt PSN account and TK'ing with throw-away characters would substantially endanger your main PSN account with your real Dust characters, FF' for Instant Battles would ruin the game.



It has nothing to do with fortitude. The only people who enjoy being killed by people on their own team is... well, nobody. Some people may like to do it, but nobody likes being randomly shot in the back by a supposed ally. So yeah, amazing as it must be, most people prefer to play the game, rather than be randomly killed by people they have no way of identifying.

And the EVE comparison is fairly ignorant of how EVE actually works. Most EVE players play in Empire space. It's safe there, unless you're flying something compelling enough to attract a suicide gank squad, and unless you're in a corp that goes to war or recruits new players only to PK them. For the majority of EVE players, they've probably never been killed by another player outside of a wardec. Now, that might change a bit with bounties, but in any case, it's not like new players spawn in nullsec with their pants around their ankles. The idea that EVE is this brutally hostile and totally crazy charnel house of players killing players is mistaken. Anyone who wants to avoid dying to other players in EVE can easily do so, while still playing the game and having fun.

Look... I want to win the match. I don't have time for 10 y/o TKers. You want to shoot at your own teammates you do it with your corp. ...so merc battles and corp battles fine whatever. In a public game I'm just sitting in for some casual killing. I still want to win. If somebody kills me on my own team I should be able to boot them from the match. If we have a field marshal up in the MCV that should simply be a matter of not letting them spawn in a new clone when they die. That's control you should have in a match. Don't tell me what I "should" or "shouldn't" do. I don't give a snip. If there's an exploitable problem one of two things can happen: CCP can recognize the problem and work on fixing it, or they can say "working as intended" and do nothing. What' I'm saying is pub matches are going to be no fun at all if TKers can just kill blues at will without repercussions. If all is as intended, wtf do I care? I can just create an alt and become part of the problem... and in so doing I'll actually be part of the solution, because once all the new people trying DUST start getting killed over and over again by their own guys, they won't want to play anymore. That's a problem for CCP. This whole conversation is stupid imho. If they allow blue on blue in public matches everyone will lose. One way or another. CCP MUST see that.

You know... the more I think about it the more I think I'm wasting keystrokes. There's no way CCP will allow allow TKing w/o consequence in public matches. They'd torp their own game before it even launched.

I read what you wrote and I told you why you're wrong. If two paragraphs is too long for you then feel free to not respond to things I write in the future. Sometimes I say things with more than a few words. Welp.

People will TK left-and-right because Dust isn't like any random FPS you've ever played. Even in those games, people absolutely do TK maliciously fairly often. Many of those servers with FF enabled require admins to kick/ban people for TK'ing. In Dust, however, it will be far worse, because people will know that they're causing real harm to a person's character by costing them money when they die. TK'ing members of rival corps would be pretty much SOP for many groups out there as well. You really have no idea how bad TK'ing will be if CCP were to take your hands-off approach.

If they add friendly fire to Instant Battle games, then no, you can't move to a new server. You can quit your game, but your next game would invariably include FF as well. My point, which I thought I made fairly clear, was that in other FPS games where it's a bunch of separate servers with different configurations, players are free to choose the ruleset that suits them best. People wouldn't have that choice with Dust (as nobody would ever voluntarily play on a FF server if they could help it, aside from people looking to play what's essentially a free-for-all).



Your odds of being killed as a new player by enemy players is basically zero unless you wander off into nullsec or something. People aren't going to get popped by CONCORD over someone in a T1 frigate. And as that new player gets to understand the world, he'll know about the various tricks that people use to get players to make themselves attackable, or the kinds of ships people would gank, or to avoid warring corps if they don't want to fight other players. EVE is pretty safe unless you do things that make you a target.

And that's why FF in Instant Battles isn't the same, as a person playing Dust for the first time ever would conceivably be maliciously TK'd in their first game, if CCP did what you people want and didn't penalize TK'ing at all essentially. Someone getting killed repeatedly by their own team before they even have any idea what's going on would lead to a pretty quick deletion of the game, as the disgruntled newbie moves on to greener pastures.

The field marshal arbitrarily making that decision isn't what I had in mind (i brought that up as more of a lore/explanation angle). I'm not talking about re-inventing the wheel. On your second or third friendly kill the teammate you killed just gets a little "boot traitor? Y/N" option while re-spawning. That's all. ...and again, public matches are all that would really concern me... but having that as an option in any match should be a given.

Tell me how often people TK using numbers rather than words. Oh, that's right, you have no idea how often the TK beyond your own limited experience. So much for that.

I know what you meant when you said moving to a new server. And I specifically said that you can't move to a server that doesn't have FF, so unlike other FPS games, you can't avoid FF if you'd rather not deal with TK'ers that day.

I've never played CoD, but good guess. I suppose you using "CoD gamer" as an epithet for someone who disagrees with you outs you as something as well.

You should sit and think about what unrestricted TK'ing would mean for people who have personal or corp rivalries as well. Even if malicious TK'ing weren't something you'd get every game (and you would), corps which don't like each other and people who don't like each other would shoot each other in the back constantly. The game would be pretty unplayable if you ever had two squads from rival corps on the same team, as they'd start a TK'ing war that wouldn't finish until their team lost.



Unless you're mining in an exhumer or flying around a freighter, you are very unlikely to be killed, as you won't be worth anything. Try to remember that the point I'm making isn't that you will never ever die as a highsec non-warring player in EVE, just that it's highly unlikely, and compared to how rampant TK'ing would be in Dust should CCP be stupid enough to do what that Arramshdjadhsa person suggested. Dust would be far, far more unforgiving to new players if it had unfettered TK'ing.

And I'm saying it happens far less than you'd get TK'd in Dust. The whole point is to smash to bits this false equivalency you've drawn between EVE and Dust with penalty-less FF turned on all the time. Dust would be far less forgiving to new players with FF on than EVE is to new players who may, very rarely, get killed flying in something like a newbie ship. That's my point. You aren't making Dust just like EVE by adding unrestricted FF on, you're making it far worse. Amahsjdhasd has zero clue what he's talking about.

So someone gets kicked and they just queue up again, pull their militia stuff, and continue to TK. Or the team they're on, for whatever reason, doesn't kick them and they keep TK'ing there. In either case, the problem of malicious TK'ing is not solved. As for VTK being the "solution from the community", how many VTK's will snipers end up having directed at them out of spite? How many new players with a bad KDR will get booted? This system will be abused. We know it'll be abused, because it's abused every day on FPS servers which allow VTK.

In other words, your "solution" will actually not deter TK'ing whatsoever, will not punish TK'ing when it happens, and will in fact lead to even bigger problems, as now people can maliciously boot others from matches if they don't want to bother with repeatedly TK'ing them.

Just so we're clear on this, CCP is trying to make a game that people who don't necessarily have an antisocial personality disorder. Normal people are supposed to like to play this game. CCP is going to make its money back by getting people to really like Dust, such that they buy AUR and stuff. So maybe some solutions to the problem of FF other than what you and Amahadshj would be sensible.

And, to reiterate, there is already a game which is F2P, which is very similar to Dust in having earning money/experience for matches being a central part of the experience, which has FF. And the FF system they have is coupled with an intelligent and effective way for friendly damage and TK'ing to be automatically and appropriately punished. CCP doesn't need to look any further than World of Tanks to see a game with always-on FF, with zero cost for people to make an account and play, and which does not have any significant problem with TK'ers as a result.

Your fantasy about the solution coming from within the community, and involving a flawed voting system, are totally unneeded, even if they were sensible answers in the first place.

Let me tell you why there shouldn't be FF


If you wipe the floor with someone one game, he's on your team next game, how fun do you think he/she would think it to be to kill your proto suit as many times as he could while on your team?

For MD and LR users, you will be punished for your team running in front of you or getting in blast radius.

For tank drivers, please this is ridiculous.

For DS gunners, the missiles spitting out wherever they feel, ya that's fair.

Random grenades before a team mate dies kills your 200k suit, because he wants revenge and you happen to be taking that revenge for him.

AV grenades, will they seek friendly vehicles?

When your CRU is camped, there will be many casualties.

Teamwork will consist of staying away from each other for no accidents.

I could go on but eeeeh.

Ive played BF2 and other mmos FPS before and team killing was one reason i left these games Along with Bots etc,If FF is introduced they will have to address these issues carefully,In my experiance it will get exploted.Alot of players will not like it when there own team kills them on purpose and they lose 100k+ worth of gear especially if its done repeatedly...I cant see a player hanging around to have that happen constantly over and over for revenge or for just being a jackass..

But, for the nth time, the gameplay reasons suffice. I just thought I'd mention that FF which didn't have automatic, serious sanctions would be pretty silly from a "lore" or "fluff" perspective, or whatever you call it. If the FF penalties involved reducing, then removing your ISK payout, then booting from a match (contract termination), then account suspension (temporary merc license revocation) and then permanent suspension (merc license termination) after too many account suspensions, it'd be WoT's very effective anti-TK system, and also totally plausible within the context of New Eden.

There is nothing at stake in Dust. The idea that it's relevant to EVE is simply an idea that will, a year or more from now, become a reality. For now, WoT has by far more at stake than Dust. Not only are tanks really expensive to buy and equip and maintain (such that people consider WoT a "grindy" game) but the Clan Wars aspect, where you fight for territory, awards you an AUR-equivalent very helpfully called "gold". That's more than you can say for Dust. So let's not pretend Dust is some special snowflake here.

And more importantly, the majority of Dust players will never go beyond Instant Battle. They'll never do corp wars, never do nullsec stuff. They'll just play Dust like any ol' FPS game. And Dust needs to be fun for those people, too. Sacrificing the fun of those casual folks, simply because of some nonsense about how "New Eden" is "supposed to be", as if that's more important than making a fun game, isn't a winning strategy. It's possible for CCP to add FF, and to make FF a good addition rather than a detriment. WoT has done it. Amarhadhsdb and his ideas won't do it. Your opinion that the community will magically find a solution (just like it finds a solution for tanks that start dominating their team, right?) is a work of fiction.

There are real solutions out there that allow FF but don't make Dust into a cesspool of TK'ing. Rejecting those solutions based on your misguided ideas about how EVE works doesn't cut it.

You don't lose money when you die in Planetside 2. You do lose money in Dust and World of Tanks. That's what makes WoT a better example than Planetside 2. Death is a very temporary setback of, at most, ~20 seconds in Planetside 2, and nothing more. In Dust, dying can be very expensive. This is why comparing Dust to other FPS games is so useless. Some people who see you using an AUR weapon will kill you simply because they know you're more likely to get pissed off at that loss. They'll blow up your tank because they know those are also expensive. The fact that death matters, and everything is paid for (or so CCP likes to claim) is meant to be one of Dust's biggest draws. With unrestricted FF, it'd make it one of its biggest shortcomings.

All these people whining about "I don't want FF because I'll loose expensive gear and have no recourse to do anything about it. I want a safe FPS experience." make's me think some people are just too lazy, or not creative enough, to be able to cope with it in game. They want an automatic mechanic or a lazy button to get rid of the problem rather than putting in time and effort to coordinate a community response.



I want to win the match not spend all my time rounding up a community response. The other team gets an easy win because my team is too busy spawn camping a TK'er so he can't kill them.....awesome. Now that's something I would come back to do time and time again rather then go play any of the thousand other games in existence.

@Shijima Kuraimaru, you are below Kitten Scrapings.

Your intelligence shines like The Black Hole Of Wishful Thinking.

New Berries come in shooting, today.

They purposefully shoot Blues in the back, today.

They have since the Open Beta.

There are no other servers. There is the one universe and there is one virtual server. There are no self hosted versions with the option to enable FF or not. The Battle Finder is a minimalist solution. It has no options, no filters and Dog Nose when we will ever see any.

Enabling FF will not work and it will accomplish what CCP does not want, which is a lot of dedicated DUST players will rethink their priorities. It will be fine with me because I have plenty of games to play that are significantly better RPGs. RPGs that are not choked by the seven year plan of CCP. It will reconfirm my opinion of back shooters like you and the filth that haunt FPSs.

The goons will love it and DUST will become an unplayable mess.

May you be the first to die by Friendly Fire.

You've been making ridiculous posts one after another. So, you're saying that if I bring out expensive gear (because the other team has brought them out) and I'm trying to win......that I should stop when I'm getting trolled-TKed?? Well, what about the win??

And you don't have to be a jerk to get TKed. You could really just be wiping the floor with someone and now they're on your team for the payback. Or, maybe I could disagree with you on the forums and then you see me in game.

Have you ever played BF3? Have you ever been kicked by an admin? People are jerks...that's the way it is but CCP shouldn't enable them.

Having to spend REAL money is not a laughing matter.

"Ruin the fun"?? FF was never here, yet you're still playing this game. This isn't about removing FF but adding it. You didn't downloand Dust and said, "Yes! They have friendly fire...I can't wait to play it". You dl'ed dust for other reasons. I never say this but if you want FF, then you should go and play the games that has FF

most people will be running militia or basic suits, say around 30000 isk at most, you get TK'ed well there goes 30000 isk, but even the worst players are earning 100k isk per match, and decent players at least 300k, so the argument about loss of isk doesn't really hold weight, you can earn back that money quite quickly. Now if i lost a proto fit to FF i would be pissed, but the only time you're gonna see proto suit's is corp battles,

I'll just note (probably I'm not the first one in this thread) that CCP does not plan to turn on FF in pub matches (I think it was stated in one of the interviews).

That said, if you are getting intentionally TKed in corp battles, well, there is a black sheep in your flock. This is New Eden. Spies happen. Your problem that you didn't figure the mole by yourself.

Excuse me....only militia suits in pub matches?? You don't know this playerbase.....wait until guys get their sps up. You will see proto gear and duvolles in pub matches like it's nothing. So, if I see someone pull out adv gear then I'm pulling mine out to compete.

Secondly, I've played MAG for 3 years and deliberate TKing was a norm. They had one swipe knives that they had to remove from friendly fire because it was so bad. You couldn't get kicked from FF if it were explosives so guys spawned with grenade launchers and that's how they used to kill you. Ask anyone that knows about the Warriors...they were notorious for dumb ****. And MAG playerbase has migrated to Dust, so I don't expect any difference. Not to mention, I've been shot at already just so I can abandon an installation and they can get the full hack.

We need to stop being naive here....but if not, wait and you'll see if they implement FF

@ Shjjma

"One game isn't necessarily the standard for all"

So, why the **** you guys keep referencing FF's "success" in other games here?? I've read a few posts in this thread, saying that it has worked fine other games

Edit: and on the other note...Dust & Eve ARE two separate games but in the same universe. You don't need to know anything about Eve to play Dust & vice versa. CCP can continue to add more games or even a virtual world like PS Home to this universe. All different games but connected

I'll just note (probably I'm not the first one in this thread) that CCP does not plan to turn on FF in pub matches (I think it was stated in one of the interviews).


There ya go ^

Problem solved.