Here's the thing though mitt, in previous build a proto-suit would die nearly as fast to focused fire, also the proto suit stuck out like a sore thumb everybody already knew to shoot that guy first as a squad.

Also in the end FPS skills will still override RPG portion, its just not good for the long life span to not have any RPG at all. After all everyone else in this galaxy has RPG constraints as well.

As one reason to increase the cap and smooth out the curve is to encourage people to go for it. to stock pile the best stuff and to use it when it really counts. Right now as it stands I can and will show up in militia gear to a corp match and **** off people who showed up in proto.

Also to counter point Black Ops 2 is very notoriously close to dust 514's current progression.

doesnt really help when u have a squad of the old buffed up suits
and tbqh with ppl actually wanting to roll pubs with full teams then u will also soon have full teams with full old build buffed proto gear. Please tell me how a newer guy/squad/team is suppose to focus fire when an entire/squad/team is in the gear and doin the same to them.

Either way it makes no difference to me
I had proto suits early build, game felt alot easier back then imo because the ppl that couldnt fund it had to gear down so i was constantly at a big advantage over these peeps.

Ppl want to feel their upgrades are worth it thats kool but is buffing back to the ridiculous lvls of old build really the solution?
mixing a FPS and RPG ur gonna run into these problems. DUST is an FPS 1st and foremost so imo the FPS side of the game needs to take preference over the others and make sure its done right and balanced.

CCP has a tough task on their hands tbh.

Here's the thing though mitt, in previous builds a proto-suit would die nearly as fast to focused fire, also the proto suit stuck out like a sore thumb everybody already knew to shoot that guy first as a squad.

Also in the end FPS skills will still override RPG portion, its just not good for the long life span to not have any RPG at all. After all everyone else in this galaxy has RPG constraints as well.

As one reason to increase the cap and smooth out the curve is to encourage people to go for it. to stock pile the best stuff and to use it when it really counts. Right now as it stands I can and will show up in militia gear to a corp match and **** off people who showed up in proto. Another reason, OFFICER gear was barely touched and they will tear though people like protos did back in e3 today.

Also to counter point Black Ops 2 and Halo 4 is very notoriously close to dust 514's current progression.

doesnt really help when u have a squad of the old buffed up suits
and tbqh with ppl actually wanting to roll pubs with full teams then u will also soon have full teams with full old build buffed proto gear. Please tell me how a newer guy/squad/team is suppose to focus fire when an entire/squad/team is in the gear and doin the same to them.

Either way it makes no difference to me
I had proto suits early build, game felt alot easier back then imo because the ppl that couldnt fund it had to gear down so i was constantly at a big advantage over these peeps.

Ppl want to feel their upgrades are worth it thats kool but is buffing back to the ridiculous lvls of old build really the solution?
mixing a FPS and RPG ur gonna run into these problems. DUST is an FPS 1st and foremost so imo the FPS side of the game needs to take preference over the others and make sure its done right and balanced.

CCP has a tough task on their hands tbh.

I've been assuming all this time that eventually proto gear will be mid-level stuff once the scope of the game widens. When low and null get introduced, there will he a lot more room for wider variances in gear. Surely CCP will have to keep releasing more powerful gear to give us something to work towards, considering how fast we gain SP (and with so many clamoring for even FASTER SP gains).

I agree. Just take a look at Eve Online. Back when it was released in 2003, Tech 2 ships never existed. There were no Tier 3 Battlecruisers nor Tech 3 Strategic Cruisers. Exhumers didn't exist back then and thus Battleships were the main mining vessels of the day. Titans didn't exist and Dreadnaughts were hardly a thought and once considered only as haulers at the time.

Today, Eve Online has a more varied list of ship classes including new Destroyers, repurposed exhumers and barges, and then some. Incursions never existed. Faction Warfare didn't come out until the Empyrean Age Expansion and later overhauled and polished during the Inferno/Retribution Expansion.

I'm pretty sure Dust 514 will start off basic and then slowly expand and get more interesting over time. Kind of like aging wine made in France.

Iron Wolf, I'm guessing you know about suit variations coming up (or maybe not, I heard it as a rumor). If suit usage could progress into variations, with more versatile options, then this problem would be solved. Higher end suits wouldn't dominate, but would offer and open up a multitude of better options.

FPS on PS3 will not grow like EvE did, especially not if the PS4 is announced and a port would take time.

FPS on PS3 will not grow like EvE did, especially not if the PS4 is announced and a port would take time.

I think that better matchmaking would solve most of the problems you had with proto versus militia in the old builds.

If you faced equally geared competition in high sec matchmaking, then it would be more forgivable to have proto gear be more powerful and better.

Where we run into trouble is that new players were thrown against the proto players of old. The nerfs kind of eliminated that problem but made less incentive to upgrade.

So, if we fix matchmaking, then we can buff back the proto Heavies to over 1200 eHP. We wouldn't have to worry about turning new players off, and of course in low and null sec anything goes, but for high sec, keeping people ranked based on the level of gear (probably determined by the average skill levels they have in whatever their respective skills are).

The time to do that would be now, before open beta so we can make sure matchmaking works as intended and is ready for the masses.

Thoughts?

Does anyone else out there not want DUST to be a "competitive shooter"?

I don't mean I don't want competition; I mean I don't want this to forego fun gameplay to make it appeal to the "competitive" crowd who wants everything to be perfectly balanced and fair. I've run into these people in other games and they basically seem to want to suck the fun out of everything to make it "competitive".

So if it comes to a choice between RPG elements and consistency with the EVE universe over "competitive" suitability, I'd prefer the former any day.

Also in before "you don't like competition just because you suck so bad at this game". I can already see it coming.

Does anyone else out there not want DUST to be a "competitive shooter"?

I don't mean I don't want competition; I mean I don't want this to forego fun gameplay to make it appeal to the "competitive" crowd who wants everything to be perfectly balanced and fair. I've run into these people in other games and they basically seem to want to suck the fun out of everything to make it "competitive".

So if it comes to a choice between RPG elements and consistency with the EVE universe over "competitive" suitability, I'd prefer the former any day.

Also in before "you don't like competition just because you suck so bad at this game". I can already see it coming.

Dunno what to say as you have 2 distinct audiences, you have the eve crowd who want every thing as complex and unforgiveing as possible.

Then you have the fps crowd who want a fun and fluid balanced shooter and ccp cant decide which camp they are in and niether crowd is willing to give an inch hence the game cant decide what it is

Were there ever Rocket Propelled Grenades in this game?

I thought the RPG elements where the fact that a militia weapon can do more damage than a standard or advanced because the player has put more SP into it?

And the fact that you can modify your suits to best fit your needs?

Dunno what to say as you have 2 distinct audiences, you have the eve crowd who want every thing as complex and unforgiveing as possible.

Then you have the fps crowd who want a fun and fluid balanced shooter and ccp cant decide which camp they are in and niether crowd is willing to give an inch hence the game cant decide what it is

Dunno what to say as you have 2 distinct audiences, you have the eve crowd who want every thing as complex and unforgiveing as possible.

Then you have the fps crowd who want a fun and fluid balanced shooter and ccp cant decide which camp they are in and niether crowd is willing to give an inch hence the game cant decide what it is

I have to agree this is the largest source of problems perceived generating. But when FPS shooters say I want customized guns I want perks and the sorts they stepping towards that level of complexity anyways. Its a bit oxymoronous.

You are both wrong.

I won't speak for all of the Imperfects but very many of them want MORE rpg not less.

Very few of them support the amount of nerfing this game has experienced.

According to you

well call of duty black ops 2 has it already in the choose your level unlock, which is why is an example close to dust 514s you get skill points nad you spend it on how you decide to gorw your character.

well call of duty black ops 2 has it already in the choose your level unlock, which is why is an example close to dust 514s you get skill points nad you spend it on how you decide to gorw your character.

Dust 514 was this grand idea to marry MMO, FPS, RPG, and RTS elements together.

While MMO department is a road map that will take another two or more years to fully qualify in, nearly the same time as RTS elements are also thrown in as well which leaves us with the RPG and FPS elements to deal with.

Now we are at a strange cross roads where competitive shooter is on one hand and RPG elements are on the other.

Elements from one wouldn't do well in the ensuing child in this marriage. While some games have done a wonderful job of the marriage in a multiplier verses environment it can be sometimes frustration where skill beats exp points or vice versa.

Dust however has special catering to emphasize the bold, the smart, the skillful or deceitful because that is the environment eve online calls for so hand holding is out of the question as well as various other factors from either side of this marriage.

Bad elements to take from an RPG for the Dust 514 environment would be like

FPS players don't want
Dice Roll to Hit - would be extremely bad case of hand holding and breaks the realism entire skill of the player aspect entirely.

Where as RPG players don't want
Lack of Progression in Gear/Character Power - it sort of kills the entire reason to develop and build the characters up.

However as it stands right now FPS shooters are crying over Proto-gear 'ROFL stomping pubs'. Or how new players 'Don't have a chance.' Or having 'widely varied gear levels =/= competitive shooter.'

Previously many builds ago, I once envied Prototype gear. Not only did I fear it, I wanted one myself. I was invigorated to work my skill sets up to get not only prototype level but making sure I got the best bang for the buck once I got there. I was literally excited over gaining power with every module's access level unlocked to me. I was even more exciting getting better with making cheaper fits with various meta levels to be in budget of the battle. Get better being on the field and earning my keep and not burdening my losses entirely on my limited budget earnings. Even more I was excited for the future of dust 514. Having the entire war play out like a real one would, With logistics (as in making sure I have a body at the front lines to fight with) structure, intel structure, and combined navy/army command structure.

Now a days I see someone in prototype gear and scoff down them as if they were milita scrubs with my milita AR, to be honest I never notice any difference in how fast they die, I haven't been killed by a prototype weapon in weeks, and lately it sees more people are down shifting from the Advanced level gear and back to basic gear. I have no longer the desire to goto prototype level for the simple fact that its no longer a REWARD but inversely its a PUNISHMENT.

While HP suit flattening was a good thing in 'leveling the playing field' as prototype gear from that era could have been made 'invincible' from those not strong enough to break the tank. However weapon flattening (where as weapon curving did not happen) has made this game nearly undesirable progression in gear beyond metalevel 1/0.

We need to put in the fear of high level gear again, maybe not as bad as it was during E3 and Uprising builds,

For those of you arguing against multiple gear levels crimping competition style. You need to look at the Eve Online Open which was a seriously highly unrestricted competition in eve online for 10,000 USD in prizes. Many teams not only signed up but got Eve online Corporate or Allaince SPONSORS to help pay for their ship equipment and despite sponsorship the best gear in the game did not save many of these teams or their ships they've lost during the tournament. I mean how much more competitive can you get when you and your corp becomes an in game franchise or something? Teams in the real world have such sponsors and ownership why cant a virtual one be similar? where wallets are thrown in to help promote and ensure success of a team?

I do not want to see this game resorting to 'Super Master Chief Sargent Chief Master of the Army" ranking system for the only RPG element where achieving max level awarded you the most lamest but most recognized and gold plated gun in the game ever.

I want to choose how I grow, How I develop, how I get better in gear, exp, and skills, that's the RPG elements I need to have in Dust 514 while maintaining player skill over-coming all factors.

While Dust 514 is in its early stages this is one of the things that made dust 514 interesting with what little it did have.

Maybe one day well return back to that point when more gear, such as tech 2 and tech 3 come out. do we get the sense of progression again. but I rather have it sooner than later.

The critical part about needing the RPG portion is to make it more unique away from the other lobby shooters that do populate many of the console platform.

The faster we get to conquest mode or even faction warfare mode the more we separate ourselves from standard multiplayer shooter to mmo shooter.

Cant say never played the game , but you have to see where I am coming from in that most fps's to date your choice is limited by your level and not left wide open for you.

Not saying either is bad just that it's a bit strange for an fps.

Plus 1 Wolf .I agree with you bud but ...dont get amnesia CODEX was .....bad.Retribution or the build before CODEX what ever the hell its name was....I would play 2 matches and it would freeze....it was so bad with bugs I thought it was gonna brick my PS3.Chromosome is way better the game isnt clipping,hardly lagging,it feels more fluid there working on your characters movement let them fix the FPS aspects of the game....I dont want to be losing Proto gear because of rubber banding lag spike when Im running a PVE mission against drones......

The critical part about needing the RPG portion is to make it more unique away from the other lobby shooters that do populate many of the console platform.

The faster we get to conquest mode or even faction warfare mode the more we separate ourselves from standard multiplayer shooter to mmo shooter.

And there lies the problem you risk alienating the fps crowd who are used to how things are done mainstream, you end up running the risk that this will turn into a niche game that only a few will want to invest time in.

As i said previously you have 2 different crowds how you pull them together and keep both happy is 1 big head ache.

If this was a pc game I could see it working but on console ccp have there work cut out for them

Eve Online alienates a lot of mmo players too. to the point we ruin MMO for most people who decide to play it a bit longer.

Dust 514 is going places no shooter wants to go.

We will be having matches in the future that will have impact, and a resounding, resonating, effect that will alter course the history of not just one game but TWO games.

To go back to status quo of play a match and have a match mean nothing is what gets just about every other shooter wanna-be out there killed these days.

FPS genre is getting old with annual releases of games now to the point is becoming the same regurgitated crud from last year no wonder why you guys are so happy to shovel out 60 -120 bucks a year for the newest battlefield and call of duty.

Dust 514 is supposed to be a first person war game. War. Not a battle but an entire sci-fi war simulator.

Dust 514 is not designed to compete against call of duty or battlefield. Its designed to create a new environment where a shooter player can step in, and be something more than a nameless soldier, and when you like it or not, characters are likely going to be forced to join up in these 'epic crusades' just to remain 'competitive' because after all when a faction showers their side with Army Gear instead of civilian try-hard gear we are all currently using players may want a piece of that. and from there you are going to start picking sides.

Imagine playing nuketown in one match, you lose and the nuke goes off. Next time you go there everyone has to be in rad suits because the place is a pile of ashes.

I wouldn't want an average FPS player in my battalion, I want people who know how to adapt or die trying.

I wouldn't want an average FPS player in my battalion, I want people who know how to adapt or die trying.

And as it's an fps it is going to have to go head to head against Bf , cod and the other fps out there wether it's designed to or not

This is a very incorrect statement.

If it provides something unique there is no need to compete directly.

It could even have measurable worse graphics (though probably would still need -tight- fps play).

Seeking to compete directly will ruin this game.

Wether you like it or not these are the games it's up against as it's firstly an fps.

loads of things that, by and large, I agree with.

Yes, the new player experience is important. But the game once you're in the loop doesn't have to be "nerfed" to cater for noobs. Seperated playlist do.

I think you should learn about a few more FPS games if you think Battlefield and COD are the only ones out there.

Lots of different FPS (especially on the PC) that cater to different groups of players.

They don't try to pull the 10m players out of BF or COD by just being another version of BF or COD.

Whilst Dust is an FPS, it can be (and I think the intention is for it to be) more than that.

Just because other FPSs out there do things in a particular way, that doesn't mean Dust has to.
As I understand it, Dust isn't 'A FPS First and Foremost', but rather 'An expansion of the EVE online universe'.
I thnk that's far cooler and more exciting than yet another FPS game.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not the best FPS player. As far as killing people goes, I'm a scrub. But that's why games like Dust, team fortress, left 4 dead and even BRINK appeal to me, and quite possibly others like me. It's the team play, the tactics and being rewarded for being useful to you comrades that get's you by more than simply the highest kill streak.

I also agree with Icy Tiger, who said:

From what I've seen, most mmorpgs have areas aimed towards players of a particular level. A player can, if they want, go to a different area and fight people harder than them to try for higher rewards, but it's at their own risk, and they are likely to be squashed mercilessly. Even other FPS games tend to put players with other players of a similar level, or try to spread the players evenly between teams.

With this in mind, I definitely agree that proto gear can afford to be much better than militia gear. It should be. It should be something to be feared, something to aspire to, to save up for and maybe even only break out in situations where you really need to give yourself an edge to 'get things done'. It shouldn't be something to be something to be mocked as for a fraction of the price you can use the militia stuff which can go toe to toe with it anyway.

FPS games I've played.

Metro
Arma
Ghost Recon 1, 2, FW
Rainbow Six
America's Army
Global Agenda
Doom 1 2 and 3
Wolfenstien 3D (not 1 and 2 they where platformers) Spear of Destiny, and the 2002 release of wolfenstien?
COD 1, BR1, COD 2, COD 3, COD 4 MW1, COD WAW, MW2, BLOPs, MW3, BLOPs2
Battlefield 1942, 2142, 2, 3 (I have been permanently banned from this game series btw)
Painkiller
Hexen
Decent 1, 2, 3
Halo 1, 2, 3, 4, ODST
Team Fortress 2
Portal 1,2
Half Life 2, + ep 1 & 2
Quake II, III
Medal of Honor
Counter-strike
UT 2001, 2002 and UT 2004?(the one with campaign mode and story explaining how they can die and re spawn)
Planet Side 1 and 2

List goes on and if you want an extremely long list I can give you a **** list on every game here. Why that game sucked and what that game could have done better.

There has not been any successful FPS has managed to be mainstay by copying another shooter entirely in formula, story or theory of approach to appeal. Dust 514 needs to focus on its goals on being Dust 514, this is not counter strike, not battlefield not halo or call of duty.

It needs to only provide more than enough familiarity that any player from any of the mentioned shooters above can step into this game board and have a good idea how to start running and gunning into a better position. This game could be 'dumbed' much further but I am afraid if that is done then not only gear gets negated but player's own skills get negated entirely. People still complain about the AR despite having Ironsights on them, range reduced, damaged decreased, all because they probably don't know how to shoot the damn things.

Thus the gearing RPG element needs to be in and significant enough to be felt, awed, and inspiring to keep players around in this generation of Effort = Reward and Gratification. It shouldn't be there to the point where best in slot = iwin but it needs to be strong enough to make the wearer say "I am such as a bad ass" and onlookers on both sides would agree, until he accidentally drops a grenade at his foot.

If dropsuits are to be buffed so must vehicles and then we go back to square 1 with ppl QQing how OP vehicles are again
Tanks are no longer really feared.

and fyi proto suits are def alot better than militia atm

ppl also forget this one little aspect of play as well
make proto gear too godlike and then what? when ppl start taking on player contracts and EVE transfers are allowed it wont matter how expensive gear is ppl will be able to run them all day....so guess what? u'll have a bunch of proto gear players running around pubs/hisec where normally u wont be able to fund it but they can because of player contracts and EVE transfers and thus makes it extremely easy to "ruin" that new player experience and ISK wont matter to these players anyway.

balance is important in a FPS
i agree ppl should feel the gear is worth it and aspire to get there but at what cost? and it has to be handled carefully or this game wont be retaining new players for long and a game like this NEEDS to constantly keep attracting fresh blood in order to keep it goin.

The most important thing for DUST is making it fun to play, worthwhile/meaningful and competitive for the hardcore in order to keep ppl coming back to the game.

Its not that FPS players hate the rpg side of Dust , its that the FPS side of dust is literally broken and never gets fixed.

Spawning
Grenades
Player Tracking
What should be hardwired and what should be a skill
Lag
Map Design
Player counts
Squad Commands
mixing up tactical and arcadish shooter
game modes
etc

Its just after spending all that time through spreadsheets and fits with the wrong customization concept that FPS players hate you finally launch into a battlefield that is grey, bland, UN unique , and lack luster.

Matchmaking or Pve is not good for dust since you want to make the planet conquering as epic of a battle as possible. You want to funnel as many players into that as possible or it just becomes who cares to people that dont play Eve.

Its not that FPS players hate the rpg side of Dust , its that the FPS side of dust is literally broken and never gets fixed.

Spawning
Grenades
Player Tracking
What should be hardwired and what should be a skill
Lag
Map Design
Player counts
Squad Commands
mixing up tactical and arcadish shooter
game modes
etc

Its just after spending all that time through spreadsheets and fits with the wrong customization concept that FPS players hate you finally launch into a battlefield that is grey, bland, UN unique , and lack luster.

Matchmaking or Pve is not good for dust since you want to make the planet conquering as epic of a battle as possible. You want to funnel as many players into that as possible or it just becomes who cares to people that dont play Eve.

...or PvE is not good for dust...

I hear you man , about the no skill book but im trying to compromise with the Eve RPG skill progression. To this day i really dont feel that Damage and Range are skills that someone holding the same weapon differs.

Also you cant mess with a FPS players radar and tell them you have to be level 5 for your items to work properly.

Tech , and ablities skill upgrades are fine in my eyes. i keep hearing about customization of dust but keep not seeing it. The duovolt know its spelt wrong looks and fires the same way the gek does that the militia weapon does.

Also the more modules your run the slower and heavier you should be . its such a FPS no no to have a scout class have more hit points than a heavy.