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Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2866	Posted - 2012.12.30 21:59:00 - [1] - Quote Dust 514 was this grand idea to marry MMO, FPS, RPG, and RTS elements together. While MMO department is a road map that will take another two or more years to fully qualify in, nearly the same time as RTS elements are also thrown in as well which leaves us with the RPG and FPS elements to deal with. Now we are at a strange cross roads where competitive shooter is on one hand and RPG elements are on the other. Elements from one wouldn't do well in the ensuing child in this marriage. While some games have done a wonderful job of the marriage in a multiplier verses environment it can be sometimes frustration where skill beats exp points or vice versa. Dust however has special catering to emphasize the bold, the smart, the skillful or deceitful because that is the environment eve online calls for so hand holding is out of the question as well as various other factors from either side of this marriage. Bad elements to take from an RPG for the Dust 514 environment would be like FPS players don't want Dice Roll to Hit - would be extremely bad case of hand holding and breaks the realism entire skill of the player aspect entirely. Where as RPG players don't want Lack of Progression in Gear/Character Power - it sort of kills the entire reason to develop and build the characters up. However as it stands right now FPS shooters are crying over Proto-gear 'ROFL stomping pubs'. Or how new players 'Don't have a chance.' Or having 'widely varied gear levels =/= competitive shooter.' Previously many builds ago, I once envied Prototype gear. Not only did I fear it, I wanted one myself. I was invigorated to work my skill sets up to get not only prototype level but making sure I got the best bang for the buck once I got there. I was literally excited over gaining power with every module's access level unlocked to me. I was even more exciting getting better with making cheaper fits with various meta levels to be in budget of the battle. Get better being on the field and earning my keep and not burdening my losses entirely on my limited budget earnings. Even more I was excited for the future of dust 514. Having the entire war play out like a real one would, With logistics (as in making sure I have a body at the front lines to fight with) structure, intel structure, and combined navy/army command structure. Now a days I see someone in prototype gear and scoff down them as if they were milita scrubs with my milita AR, to be honest I never notice any difference in how fast they die, I haven't been killed by a prototype weapon in weeks, and lately it sees more people are down shifting from the Advanced level gear and back to basic gear. I have no longer the desire to goto prototype level for the simple fact that its no longer a REWARD but inversely its a PUNISHMENT. While HP suit flattening was a good thing in 'leveling the playing field' as prototype gear from that era could have been made 'invincible' from those not strong enough to break the tank. However weapon flattening (where as weapon curving did not happen) has made this game nearly undesirable progression in gear beyond metalevel 1/0. We need to put in the fear of high level gear again, maybe not as bad as it was during E3 and Uprising builds, For those of you arguing against multiple gear levels crimping competition style. You need to look at the Eve Online Open which was a seriously highly unrestricted competition in eve online for 10,000 USD in prizes. Many teams not only signed up but got Eve online Corporate or Allaince SPONSORS to help pay for their ship equipment and despite sponsorship the best gear in the game did not save many of these teams or their ships they've lost during the tournament. I mean how much more competitive can you get when you and your corp becomes an in game franchise or something? Teams in the real world have such sponsors and ownership why cant a virtual one be similar? where wallets are thrown in to help promote and ensure success of a team? I do not want to see this game resorting to 'Super Master Chief Sargent Chief Master of the Army" ranking system for the only RPG element where achieving max level awarded you the most lamest but most recognized and gold plated gun in the game ever. I want to choose how I grow, How I develop, how I get better in gear, exp, and skills, that's the RPG elements I need to have in Dust 514 while maintaining player skill over-coming all factors. While Dust 514 is in its early stages this is one of the things that made dust 514 interesting with what little it did have. Maybe one day well return back to that point when more gear, such as tech 2 and tech 3 come out. do we get the sense of progression again. but I rather have it sooner than later.
Icy Tiger Universal Allies Inc. 1026	Posted - 2012.12.30 22:16:00 - [2] - Quote Agreed completely. Yes, the new player experience is important. But the game once you're in the loop doesn't have to be "nerfed" to cater for noobs. Seperated playlist do.
MItt R0mney Doomheim 58	Posted - 2012.12.30 22:23:00 - [3] - Quote Honestly, I don't think CCP wants people to be able to make a difference in Prototype gear by themselves. Since this game has a heavy emphasis on teamwork, I would think that in order to get the most out of your prototype gear, you have to be able to fit your entire corporation to really reap the benefits. That way, as a team, you guys have significantly more damage resistance and more damage output than the team sporting militia and standard with very few advanced and proto. Also, this game needs to be more FPS than RPG. When I first heard about this game, David Reid would always say "it's not pay to win" and "Skill will always be the deciding factor". The way I see it, the RPG elements exist to only give a single player an EDGE over the competition. Leveling up to proto gear will not put you in a different class of players or anything like that because from what I understand, that is not what New Eden is all about (single shard server). I honestly see no reason to increase the gap between militia and proto. You could argue that you want to feel like you are actually progressing towards something more significant like in other RPGs. If that's the case, if that is how you really feel, then I guess you just have a different view of what dust should be (more RPG than FPS). Keep in mind that most popular console shooters don't even have 10% the amount of RPG elements that dust has currently and I think CCP has struck a nice balance between RPG and FPS.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2866	Posted - 2012.12.30 22:27:00 - [4] - Quote Here's the thing though mitt, in previous builds a proto-suit would die nearly as fast to focused fire, also the proto suit stuck out like a sore thumb everybody already knew to shoot that guy first as a squad. Also in the end FPS skills will still override RPG portion, its just not good for the long life span to not have any RPG at all. After all everyone else in this galaxy has RPG constraints as well and in an age of MMOs and not shooters you want people to be always clambering for the next big thing, when it may be a new shiny rifle or a new shiny tank. Run out of things to go for and you run out of people. This is what killed Planetside 1 litterally and just about every major mmo that has tried to compete against world of warcraft. As one reason to increase the cap and smooth out the curve is to encourage people to go for it. to stock pile the best stuff and to use it when it really counts. Right now as it stands I can and will show up in militia gear to a corp match and **** off people who showed up in proto. Another reason, OFFICER gear was barely touched and they will tear though people like protos did back in e3 today. Also to counter point Black Ops 2 and Halo 4 is very notoriously close to dust 514's current progression.
Mavado V Noriega SyNergy Gaming 2282	Posted - 2012.12.30 22:37:00 - [5] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Here's the thing though mitt, in previous build a proto-suit would die nearly as fast to focused fire, also the proto suit stuck out like a sore thumb everybody already knew to shoot that guy first as a squad. Also in the end FPS skills will still override RPG portion, its just not good for the long life span to not have any RPG at all. After all everyone else in this galaxy has RPG constraints as well. As one reason to increase the cap and smooth out the curve is to encourage people to go for it. to stock pile the best stuff and to use it when it really counts. Right now as it stands I can and will show up in militia gear to a corp match and **** off people who showed up in proto. Also to counter point Black Ops 2 is very notoriously close to dust 514's current progression. doesnt really help when u have a squad of the old buffed up suits and tbqh with ppl actually wanting to roll pubs with full teams then u will also soon have full teams with full old build buffed proto gear. Please tell me how a newer guy/squad/team is suppose to focus fire when an entire/squad/team is in the gear and doin the same to them. Either way it makes no difference to me I had proto suits early build, game felt alot easier back then imo because the ppl that couldnt fund it had to gear down so i was constantly at a big advantage over these peeps. Ppl want to feel their upgrades are worth it thats kool but is buffing back to the ridiculous lvls of old build really the solution? mixing a FPS and RPG ur gonna run into these problems. DUST is an FPS 1st and foremost so imo the FPS side of the game needs to take preference over the others and make sure its done right and balanced. CCP has a tough task on their hands tbh.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2866	Posted - 2012.12.30 22:49:00 - [6] - Quote Mavado V Noriega wrote: doesnt really help when u have a squad of the old buffed up suits and tbqh with ppl actually wanting to roll pubs with full teams then u will also soon have full teams with full old build buffed proto gear. Please tell me how a newer guy/squad/team is suppose to focus fire when an entire/squad/team is in the gear and doin the same to them. Either way it makes no difference to me I had proto suits early build, game felt alot easier back then imo because the ppl that couldnt fund it had to gear down so i was constantly at a big advantage over these peeps. Ppl want to feel their upgrades are worth it thats kool but is buffing back to the ridiculous lvls of old build really the solution? mixing a FPS and RPG ur gonna run into these problems. DUST is an FPS 1st and foremost so imo the FPS side of the game needs to take preference over the others and make sure its done right and balanced. CCP has a tough task on their hands tbh. Even back then I was milita locking myself and still pwning protos just I had to be more careful about getting shot back then where as now I almost ignore the fact they're shooting at me and try to out gun them now. Now imagine if I wasn't such a lone wolf how much more deadlier I could have been. The bottom line a player's own skill (in which in this game I had to develop for) will override any RPG element just about. I will consent going that going back to E3 build levels would be a very bad idea however current status on some modules and most weapons are not gutting it. As some one mentioned earlier right now proto-suits have no place to exist at the very moment there is no higher calling of saving the best for the worst. One day it will come and you would want to bring out the very absolute best gear possible because the fight you are about to march into is going to determine if you have a corporation the very next day. That a defeat would do irreversible damage to your organization and when you have a bunch of folks who think milita is going to cut it because they had no desire to go proto because of how lame it was is pitted against equally skilled players who spent an empires ransom to take your planet away from you and are showing up in OFFICER Gear. Also as this game progresses there will be less and less FPS elements in this game and more and more World Elements being added in which you have to RP though in a way. Market, Inventory, Industry, Resourcing, Empire Management, Tactical Command, Strategic Command, Operational Command, Theatrical Command, Military Strategy, Commercialization, Propaganda, Diplomacy, Intel, Counter Intel, Supply chains. Many of these things cannot and will not be soultioned by shooting a guy in the face. CCP needs to get Faction Warfare out the door soon that would help smooth many things up as that will become the new Stomping grounds and ego measuring stick and encourage proto-fitters to go fight there where the pay is much better vs the high sec match where if they die once or twice they lose out.
MItt R0mney Doomheim 58	Posted - 2012.12.30 22:51:00 - [7] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Here's the thing though mitt, in previous builds a proto-suit would die nearly as fast to focused fire, also the proto suit stuck out like a sore thumb everybody already knew to shoot that guy first as a squad. Also in the end FPS skills will still override RPG portion, its just not good for the long life span to not have any RPG at all. After all everyone else in this galaxy has RPG constraints as well. As one reason to increase the cap and smooth out the curve is to encourage people to go for it. to stock pile the best stuff and to use it when it really counts. Right now as it stands I can and will show up in militia gear to a corp match and **** off people who showed up in proto. Another reason, OFFICER gear was barely touched and they will tear though people like protos did back in e3 today. Also to counter point Black Ops 2 and Halo 4 is very notoriously close to dust 514's current progression. Drawing attention you yourself in a protosuit will always be a risk. But that's the price of wearing a shiny suit. Dust will still have RPG elements, so it's not right to say " its just not good for the long life span to not have any RPG at all". And with the SP system being worked on and such, there is still time to find a better balance between progression and time (for the long term survivability of dust). Also, the features that are supposed to keep a player playing is the persistence/conquest/corporation managment/participation and all the Eve/Dust interaction. Those are the main things that will keep a player playing, not skill progression (because skill points have a cap). I admit, in previous builds I was so excited to skill into proto gear. You know why? Because in replication and E3 if you weren't using protosuit +creodron +complex damage mods you were doing it wrong. I could go multiple matches without a single death. It was so much FUN. But it was wrong. And it eventually got stale. If you show up in a corp match weilding militia against protosuits and you are spanking them, then you are just more skilled than them. Plain and simple. They took a risk fielding Proto suits. Risking that some guy with militia gear will one shot them with a sniper, or shotgun or HMG. Risking that no matter what gear they use, they will always lose to you because you are more skilled and experienced then they are. That is what I want this game to be about. Gear should function as a tie breaker and as a way to change up tactics as a corporation. Protogear needs to be a choice, not a necessity to stay competitive.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 809	Posted - 2012.12.30 22:51:00 - [8] - Quote I've been assuming all this time that eventually proto gear will be mid-level stuff once the scope of the game widens. When low and null get introduced, there will he a lot more room for wider variances in gear. Surely CCP will have to keep releasing more powerful gear to give us something to work towards, considering how fast we gain SP (and with so many clamoring for even FASTER SP gains).
Regis Mk V Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 109	Posted - 2012.12.30 22:58:00 - [9] - Quote Mavado V Noriega wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Here's the thing though mitt, in previous build a proto-suit would die nearly as fast to focused fire, also the proto suit stuck out like a sore thumb everybody already knew to shoot that guy first as a squad. Also in the end FPS skills will still override RPG portion, its just not good for the long life span to not have any RPG at all. After all everyone else in this galaxy has RPG constraints as well. As one reason to increase the cap and smooth out the curve is to encourage people to go for it. to stock pile the best stuff and to use it when it really counts. Right now as it stands I can and will show up in militia gear to a corp match and **** off people who showed up in proto. Also to counter point Black Ops 2 is very notoriously close to dust 514's current progression. doesnt really help when u have a squad of the old buffed up suits and tbqh with ppl actually wanting to roll pubs with full teams then u will also soon have full teams with full old build buffed proto gear. Please tell me how a newer guy/squad/team is suppose to focus fire when an entire/squad/team is in the gear and doin the same to them. Either way it makes no difference to me I had proto suits early build, game felt alot easier back then imo because the ppl that couldnt fund it had to gear down so i was constantly at a big advantage over these peeps. Ppl want to feel their upgrades are worth it thats kool but is buffing back to the ridiculous lvls of old build really the solution? mixing a FPS and RPG ur gonna run into these problems. DUST is an FPS 1st and foremost so imo the FPS side of the game needs to take preference over the others and make sure its done right and balanced. CCP has a tough task on their hands tbh. Agreed
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2866	Posted - 2012.12.30 23:02:00 - [10] - Quote Well keeping the entire RPG in the SP bottle is not a good idea. I can tell you this as an eve player who has just about mastered all tech 1 gear and is about less than a year way from capping out every sub capital tech 2 and tech 3 item in the game (yes I am old in eve). There is also the fun notion that there are somethings that does not give a damn about how well geared you were right before it killed you. Orbital strikes, LAV bottoms, Tank Treads, Tank Cannon ect ect. In eve I am constantly awed by better gear, means of making isk and various performance tweaking, no matter how well SP I can get I cannot and may not ever match any of the other people I meet because of RP and RPG elements. For example I now have a reputation of a being rather trustworthy person and that is probably more expensive than some of the biggest ships in eve and I am not about to sink that for anything. Choices I have made shaped the star ship captain I am today. Had I been thrown into a Rifter in my early days and some one threw me into a pvp environment and walked me though it I would probably have been much more of a ferocious sort of person worthy of a much higher bounty. Because I never even knew what a Rifter was for ... 6 months(military deployment), never got owned, didn't know cruisers existed I had an extremely hard time starting up in eve. Then when I finally got owned I didn't understand as to why I did. Took 2 years of living in null sec space to fix this. Players need exposure to gear. they need to understand modules not only exists but they are rather functional and change dynamics of a fight entirely. There isn't anything that dynamic about proto-suits. In the end it should not frustrate newer players but inspire them to start getting gear goals for themselves. As for gear costs/effect I would like a level where Type Number and Alphas are considered affordable for generic every day BS and dying while prototype level gear and above is only used when losing is not an option. As for the fuller scope of things Prototype gear should be matching Tech 2 performance but tech 2 is much cheaper to produce however its skill intensive and requires massive infrastructure to make it so. Also tech 2 is a worlds beyond what GP tech 1 does as Tech 2 is specializing in very specific goals of the technology. As it stands now the modules have also gotten squished so bad that stacking penalties are no longer being registered when the displayed number is rounded.

Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2866	Posted - 2012.12.30 23:08:00 - [11] - Quote In a side note about all this. I don't want to answer a rookie's question as to "Why nobody wants to use proto-gear" with "Don't bother even wearing it"
Moonracer2000 Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 311	Posted - 2012.12.30 23:24:00 - [12] - Quote The role playing advancement element has more to do with faction warfare and player deployed emplacements to me. I feel like if that layer of the game isn't implemented then the game will pretty much fail and be a mediocre space FPS. I don't really see the excitement in gear advancement. It is important to balance out, but ultimately will do little to determine if this is a good game that stands apart from others.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1591	Posted - 2012.12.30 23:27:00 - [13] - Quote Baal Roo wrote: I've been assuming all this time that eventually proto gear will be mid-level stuff once the scope of the game widens. When low and null get introduced, there will he a lot more room for wider variances in gear. Surely CCP will have to keep releasing more powerful gear to give us something to work towards, considering how fast we gain SP (and with so many clamoring for even FASTER SP gains). I agree. Just take a look at Eve Online. Back when it was released in 2003, Tech 2 ships never existed. There were no Tier 3 Battlecruisers nor Tech 3 Strategic Cruisers. Exhumers didn't exist back then and thus Battleships were the main mining vessels of the day. Titans didn't exist and Dreadnaughts were hardly a thought and once considered only as haulers at the time. Today, Eve Online has a more varied list of ship classes including new Destroyers, repurposed exhumers and barges, and then some. Incursions never existed. Faction Warfare didn't come out until the Empyrean Age Expansion and later overhauled and polished during the Inferno/Retribution Expansion. I'm pretty sure Dust 514 will start off basic and then slowly expand and get more interesting over time. Kind of like aging wine made in France.
MItt R0mney Doomheim 58	Posted - 2012.12.30 23:44:00 - [14] - Quote My main concern about this is that increasing the gap between proto and militia will just cause more problems and increase frustration for most people. This is an FPS first and foremost that is supposed to be able to operate independently of EVE online. Dust has to balance gear differently than Eve because the matches in Dust are instanced rather than free roam like Eve and planetside. Because these battles are instanced, balance is significantly more important than the way gear is balanced in EVE. Just ask yourself, does increasing the gap solve anything? All I foresee is players complaining and rage quitting when they get stomped by protos and the only feedback they get is HTFU. But maybe you think that players need to be separated so that low level gear plays with low level gear and high level gear play with high level gear. But if that's the case, what would even be the point of leveling gear if all it does is put you in a different class of players to play with? I see no benefit of separating the playerbase like that. It doesn't enhance the gameplay in anyway at all. And if you don't seperate the player base by gear, all we are ever going to hear is people crying and quitting because of protogod mode players stomping newbies.
Icy Tiger Universal Allies Inc. 1026	Posted - 2012.12.30 23:46:00 - [15] - Quote Iron Wolf, I'm guessing you know about suit variations coming up (or maybe not, I heard it as a rumor). If suit usage could progress into variations, with more versatile options, then this problem would be solved. Higher end suits wouldn't dominate, but would offer and open up a multitude of better options.
Icy Tiger Universal Allies Inc. 1026	Posted - 2012.12.30 23:48:00 - [16] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Baal Roo wrote: I've been assuming all this time that eventually proto gear will be mid-level stuff once the scope of the game widens. When low and null get introduced, there will he a lot more room for wider variances in gear. Surely CCP will have to keep releasing more powerful gear to give us something to work towards, considering how fast we gain SP (and with so many clamoring for even FASTER SP gains). I agree. Just take a look at Eve Online. Back when it was released in 2003, Tech 2 ships never existed. There were no Tier 3 Battlecruisers nor Tech 3 Strategic Cruisers. Exhumers didn't exist back then and thus Battleships were the main mining vessels of the day. Titans didn't exist and Dreadnaughts were hardly a thought and once considered only as haulers at the time. Today, Eve Online has a more varied list of ship classes including new Destroyers, repurposed exhumers and barges, and then some. Incursions never existed. Faction Warfare didn't come out until the Empyrean Age Expansion and later overhauled and polished during the Inferno/Retribution Expansion. I'm pretty sure Dust 514 will start off basic and then slowly expand and get more interesting over time. Kind of like aging wine made in France. FPS on PS3 will not grow like EvE did, especially not if the PS4 is announced and a port would take time.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2866	Posted - 2012.12.30 23:53:00 - [17] - Quote Icy Tiger wrote: Iron Wolf, I'm guessing you know about suit variations coming up (or maybe not, I heard it as a rumor). If suit usage could progress into variations, with more versatile options, then this problem would be solved. Higher end suits wouldn't dominate, but would offer and open up a multitude of better options. Yes I know about the 'tech 2 suits' the problem is thats' a whole nother ball park. Prototype is supposed to be the lower skill point counter against 'tech 2 suits.' But at the way things are being squashed now. A milita suit can take out a tech 2 suit with just as much impunity. Which in the end frustrates the SP Jarred portion of the RPG.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1591	Posted - 2012.12.30 23:53:00 - [18] - Quote Icy Tiger wrote: FPS on PS3 will not grow like EvE did, especially not if the PS4 is announced and a port would take time. That remains to be seen.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2866	Posted - 2012.12.30 23:57:00 - [19] - Quote Icy Tiger wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Baal Roo wrote: I've been assuming all this time that eventually proto gear will be mid-level stuff once the scope of the game widens. When low and null get introduced, there will he a lot more room for wider variances in gear. Surely CCP will have to keep releasing more powerful gear to give us something to work towards, considering how fast we gain SP (and with so many clamoring for even FASTER SP gains). I agree. Just take a look at Eve Online. Back when it was released in 2003, Tech 2 ships never existed. There were no Tier 3 Battlecruisers nor Tech 3 Strategic Cruisers. Exhumers didn't exist back then and thus Battleships were the main mining vessels of the day. Titans didn't exist and Dreadnaughts were hardly a thought and once considered only as haulers at the time. Today, Eve Online has a more varied list of ship classes including new Destroyers, repurposed exhumers and barges, and then some. Incursions never existed. Faction Warfare didn't come out until the Empyrean Age Expansion and later overhauled and polished during the Inferno/Retribution Expansion. I'm pretty sure Dust 514 will start off basic and then slowly expand and get more interesting over time. Kind of like aging wine made in France. FPS on PS3 will not grow like EvE did, especially not if the PS4 is announced and a port would take time. Still Dust 514 has the opportunity with 2 expansions planned a year with near bimonthly patches comming out for adjustments fixes and balance issues. As for the Meta lvl 5, its near top of the line in standard gear in eve online, to the point its more expensive than the tech 2 counter parts because of lack of skill requirements. Also to further increase the where is the RPG discussion. Why is there such a seemingly increasing protest against PVE? Not everyone plays a shooter for its multiplayer, in my case I never played GoW multiplayer ever. I played it for the story. Where as in Call of Duty I play it for multiplayer alone, single player can do die in a fire. PVE is also a team building exercise, drones are not something you'll be soloing especially when some are as big and tough as tanks are and they are reactive to player tactics (IE if you deploy a tank they will swarm anti-vehicle suicide drones after you). This may also be dust 514's clever way to have people go 'mine' for materials that are required to construct the more complicated blueprints in dust 514.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2866	Posted - 2012.12.30 23:59:00 - [20] - Quote I do find it very cool however when some one in IRC comes into the channel and tells us their experience with their newest strange fit that oddly works.

J'Jor Da'Wg KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 648	Posted - 2012.12.31 00:00:00 - [21] - Quote I think that better matchmaking would solve most of the problems you had with proto versus militia in the old builds. If you faced equally geared competition in high sec matchmaking, then it would be more forgivable to have proto gear be more powerful and better. Where we run into trouble is that new players were thrown against the proto players of old. The nerfs kind of eliminated that problem but made less incentive to upgrade. So, if we fix matchmaking, then we can buff back the proto Heavies to over 1200 eHP. We wouldn't have to worry about turning new players off, and of course in low and null sec anything goes, but for high sec, keeping people ranked based on the level of gear (probably determined by the average skill levels they have in whatever their respective skills are). The time to do that would be now, before open beta so we can make sure matchmaking works as intended and is ready for the masses. Thoughts?
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2866	Posted - 2012.12.31 00:04:00 - [22] - Quote J'Jor Da'Wg wrote: I think that better matchmaking would solve most of the problems you had with proto versus militia in the old builds. If you faced equally geared competition in high sec matchmaking, then it would be more forgivable to have proto gear be more powerful and better. Where we run into trouble is that new players were thrown against the proto players of old. The nerfs kind of eliminated that problem but made less incentive to upgrade. So, if we fix matchmaking, then we can buff back the proto Heavies to over 1200 eHP. We wouldn't have to worry about turning new players off, and of course in low and null sec anything goes, but for high sec, keeping people ranked based on the level of gear (probably determined by the average skill levels they have in whatever their respective skills are). The time to do that would be now, before open beta so we can make sure matchmaking works as intended and is ready for the masses. Thoughts? It would help out a small bit but the bigger hope is the guns will follow the money they're capable of winning in. Null Sec Conquest, Low Sec Faction Warfare, Highsec Training grounds, and Player controlled betting Arenas. If the high sec battle finder was a bit smarter on sorting out people based on their SP levels modified by their KDR it would not be so bad as well. However I don't think New Eden would go that route of 'artificial bantering'
Shiro Mokuzan GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 106	Posted - 2012.12.31 00:11:00 - [23] - Quote Does anyone else out there not want DUST to be a "competitive shooter"? I don't mean I don't want competition; I mean I don't want this to forego fun gameplay to make it appeal to the "competitive" crowd who wants everything to be perfectly balanced and fair. I've run into these people in other games and they basically seem to want to suck the fun out of everything to make it "competitive". So if it comes to a choice between RPG elements and consistency with the EVE universe over "competitive" suitability, I'd prefer the former any day. Also in before "you don't like competition just because you suck so bad at this game". I can already see it coming.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2866	Posted - 2012.12.31 00:20:00 - [24] - Quote Shiro Mokuzan wrote: Does anyone else out there not want DUST to be a "competitive shooter"? I don't mean I don't want competition; I mean I don't want this to forego fun gameplay to make it appeal to the "competitive" crowd who wants everything to be perfectly balanced and fair. I've run into these people in other games and they basically seem to want to suck the fun out of everything to make it "competitive". So if it comes to a choice between RPG elements and consistency with the EVE universe over "competitive" suitability, I'd prefer the former any day. Also in before "you don't like competition just because you suck so bad at this game". I can already see it coming. Hence Arena Game play that's supposed to be in the first expansion. Also having a tiered item selection adds to the competition element as it now becomes a who can fit their suits the best to match their skills. I am not sure if you guys done the math but even at max skills you can't full proto a few of the suits out in various likable configurations. While some would argue that a competitive shooter would be more like counter strike where the entire game is flat (and imo boring) The way I see dust being competitive would be more akin to NASCAR or Grand Tours racing. You have a myrad selection of parts (like our modules), you have limits such as weight and safety (CPU and Grid in our case) then at the seat you have the driver (player's own skill) You want the best parts in the world? get sponsors, save up money, stockpile. You want ot he best player skills in the world? train train train plan train. Don't have the isk? get a sponsor, let him foot the bill for the gear, in return he gets free advertising and some dibbs on the stuff you win. Having gear levels that somewhat matter would also create 'competition' the need to get better in one way or another. When If first started back in the old builds I had a difficult time taking out protos, at the near end of that build with proto armageddeon I was taking the same protos out with just my militia fits.
Elijah Sol' Dzusaki Onward Defrosted Tuna Team 485	Posted - 2012.12.31 00:28:00 - [25] - Quote Were there ever Rocket Propelled Grenades in this game? I thought the RPG elements was the fact that a militia weapon can do more damage than a standard or advanced because the player has put more SP into it? And the fact that you can modify your suits to best fit your needs?
fenrir storm Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 314	Posted - 2012.12.31 00:31:00 - [26] - Quote Shiro Mokuzan wrote: Does anyone else out there not want DUST to be a "competitive shooter"? I don't mean I don't want competition; I mean I don't want this to forego fun gameplay to make it appeal to the "competitive" crowd who wants everything to be perfectly balanced and fair. I've run into these people in other games and they basically seem to want to suck the fun out of everything to make it "competitive". So if it comes to a choice between RPG elements and consistency with the EVE universe over "competitive" suitability, I'd prefer the former any day. Also in before "you don't like competition just because you suck so bad at this game". I can already see it coming. Dunno what to say as you have 2 distinct audiences, you have the eve crowd who want every thing as complex and unforgiveing as possible. Then you have the fps crowd who want a fun and fluid balanced shooter and ccp cant decide which camp they are in and niether crowd is willing to give an inch hence the game cant decide what it is
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2866	Posted - 2012.12.31 00:34:00 - [27] - Quote fenrir storm wrote: Shiro Mokuzan wrote: Does anyone else out there not want DUST to be a "competitive shooter"? I don't mean I don't want competition; I mean I don't want this to forego fun gameplay to make it appeal to the "competitive" crowd who wants everything to be perfectly balanced and fair. I've run into these people in other games and they basically seem to want to suck the fun out of everything to make it "competitive". So if it comes to a choice between RPG elements and consistency with the EVE universe over "competitive" suitability, I'd prefer the former any day. Also in before "you don't like competition just because you suck so bad at this game". I can already see it coming. Dunno what to say as you have 2 distinct audiences, you have the eve crowd who want every thing as complex and unforgiveing as possible. Then you have the fps crowd who want a fun and fluid balanced shooter and ccp cant decide which camp they are in and niether crowd is willing to give an inch hence the game cant decide what it is I have to agree this is the largest source of problems perceived generating. But when FPS shooters say I want customized guns I want perks and the sorts they stepping towards that level of complexity anyways. Its a bit oxymoronous.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2866	Posted - 2012.12.31 00:36:00 - [28] - Quote Elijah Sol' Dzusaki wrote: Were there ever Rocket Propelled Grenades in this game? I thought the RPG elements where the fact that a militia weapon can do more damage than a standard or advanced because the player has put more SP into it? And the fact that you can modify your suits to best fit your needs? Ask the Minmatar they had such launcher.
Telcontar Dunedain Imperfects Negative-Feedback 328	Posted - 2012.12.31 00:43:00 - [29] - Quote fenrir storm wrote: Shiro Mokuzan wrote: Does anyone else out there not want DUST to be a "competitive shooter"? I don't mean I don't want competition; I mean I don't want this to forego fun gameplay to make it appeal to the "competitive" crowd who wants everything to be perfectly balanced and fair. I've run into these people in other games and they basically seem to want to suck the fun out of everything to make it "competitive". So if it comes to a choice between RPG elements and consistency with the EVE universe over "competitive" suitability, I'd prefer the former any day. Also in before "you don't like competition just because you suck so bad at this game". I can already see it coming. Dunno what to say as you have 2 distinct audiences, you have the eve crowd who want every thing as complex and unforgiveing as possible. Then you have the fps crowd who want a fun and fluid balanced shooter and ccp cant decide which camp they are in and niether crowd is willing to give an inch hence the game cant decide what it is You are both wrong. I won't speak for all of the Imperfects but very many of them want MORE rpg not less. Very few of them support the amount of nerfing this game has experienced.
Icy Tiger Universal Allies Inc. 1026	Posted - 2012.12.31 00:43:00 - [30] - Quote fenrir storm wrote: Shiro Mokuzan wrote: Does anyone else out there not want DUST to be a "competitive shooter"? I don't mean I don't want competition; I mean I don't want this to forego fun gameplay to make it appeal to the "competitive" crowd who wants everything to be perfectly balanced and fair. I've run into these people in other games and they basically seem to want to suck the fun out of everything to make it "competitive". So if it comes to a choice between RPG elements and consistency with the EVE universe over "competitive" suitability, I'd prefer the former any day. Also in before "you don't like competition just because you suck so bad at this game". I can already see it coming. Dunno what to say as you have 2 distinct audiences, you have the eve crowd who want every thing as complex and unforgiveing as possible. Then you have the fps crowd who want a fun and fluid balanced shooter and ccp cant decide which camp they are in and niether crowd is willing to give an inch hence the game cant decide what it is Don't let's the FPS crowd off so easy. We have the MAG crew who want everything skill only, and we have the CoD people (explanation unnecessary) and so on.



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