^ this +1

Also you CHOSE to spec all your SP into proto gear to get an edge rather than looking at all the skills available like i did. Granted ive only been in the game 2 weeks so i have the benefit of coming in after all the changes(which is why you guys should have gotten a wipe).

But first thing i realized was there would be no way to sustain high tier gear for long. Instead i took what AUR i did have and get tier I militia BPO suit and modules and tier I armor gear.

Instead of trying to get fancy dropsuits ive left my dropsuit spec at 2 and speced into shiled boost, shiled enhancement, and field mechanics, to get native boosts to my character regardless of what equipment i have on, same with weaponry, 1 weapon operation and sharpshooter.

This gives me the most bang for my buck regardless of gear. Perhaps if you did this you wouldnt feel iike you wasted SP in gear you shouldnt be using yet anyway.

If you take the security model into acct it makes sense that you first buildup your character then you buildup equipment. Its like trying to curl 150lbs before you can even bench press 150lbs.

Thats just the way you do it in RPG's. YOu dont get the shiny toys before youve got the base stats built otherwise their bonuses are just a waste.

Edit-Stop blaming the devs because of the way you chose to spend your skill points. That was your choice to go that route just because it isnt reaping the benefits you like doesnt mean the game is wrong. You just mismanged the points. Do what i did and create a new character and dont expect to be a god inside of a month let along a week or two.

lolwut?
if both players are equal skill then with how it is currently the guy with better gear has an advantage already
i never said everyone should be even yall just want the gap to be too big

why should only the rich corps be allowed to play FW?
why shouldnt a poorer corp that is alot more skillful be able to come into FW and **** rich EVE funded corps who might be terrible?

competitive clans wont take this game srsly if better gear wins u battles and skill takes a back seat.

And here is where the divide between FPS minded and RPG minded players come crashing head to head. Since i play both i can easily sympathize with both. If they buff the protos they dont need to necessarily cost too much to be worth using the rewards in highsec need to be low enough to deter them from being used. Conversely Mavado, if the ISK rewards are high enough in nullsec you will be able to use them there and generate nice profits, because your corp has the skill to earn those yields, it would just take a while establishing your smaller corp to get the funds to get there. If you could just go in with militia gear and do well because the stats line up nicely enough, then that would make having the protos useless(yes i finally understand the fundamental argument that players asking for a buff are talking about, it just took a while for the light bulb to click) as everyone would run militia gear everywhere and since the loot drop is partly determined by the gear of your opponents it would just plain suck being in nullsec, why run proto if you can compete in militia. Like anything else you buildup you save and then you invest. Thats the RPG side of this game and it does need to be there as well.

Is this basically the divide that sums up the philosphical difference b/w the two camps?

lolwut?
if both players are equal skill then with how it is currently the guy with better gear has an advantage already
i never said everyone should be even yall just want the gap to be too big

why should only the rich corps be allowed to play FW?
why shouldnt a poorer corp that is alot more skillful be able to come into FW and **** rich EVE funded corps who might be terrible?

competitive clans wont take this game srsly if better gear wins u battles and skill takes a back seat.

i have to agree w/ Telc, Mavado. As it currently stands, what you are asking for is to allow people of equal skill to be on equal footing running basic gear as proto gear.

Yes, personal skill will give edges; but gear ALSO needs to give a reasonable edge, w/o being to destroying. There is a problem when you say basic should compete equally with proto gear. This then raising the question as to what is the point of progressing in the game. If you can run basic gear 24/7 and compete w/ proto gear 24/7, then sense of SP becomes useless. Proto will give you a few extra trinkets, but as it is, it is minimal. Extra high slot; yippy, get extra 22-66 shield, meaning 1-2 bullets which u wont even really notice; or extra damage, that is isn't that noticeable either.

If player A competes equally to player B in (assume equal skill); then why wait time and SP to upgrade your guns, your dropsuits, your armor, etc? The idea of minimizing the gear gap; reduces the need for progress. I haven't played many MMO's, as mainly been an fps players; but in MMO's i believe, a lv 1 character will NEVER be on par with a lv 50 character no matter skill. Part of this NEEDS to be addressed; as everyone is saying this is an FPS first, which it isn't. It is equally and FPS and MMO at the same time, so need to take parts of each game together and not weight one more-so then the other.

Yes, new players should be at a disadvantage to experienced players, to an extent. However everyone is being caught up in how it works in the beta as we only have pub matches. On full release, these players will be split so there shouldn't have been a reason to alter weapon play to make things more even; as that is what match type will do in full release.

This is a big problem with your outlook.

This is a game that should be played for years. Not 3 months like cod4,5,6,7

So you seriously want the game to allow a newb to come into lowsec with no investment?

No risk since they can run trash gear...

No time investment and they are in lowsec from day one?

That sounds terrible.

I have no desire to play with players that are zerging nullsec and lowsec with no ISK invested and no commitment to the game.

This game is supposed to be about risking your time and ISK.

If you get your way it will just be another bad COD clone.

I'm not going to be playing this game if it continues to be about pubstomping. It's tedious.

If you and your scrubs want to stay in hisec stomping pubs with protogear have fun ;)

Here is a transcript from IRC that you missed -

Telc: its not really a particular set of nerfs/flattening
Telc: its the general trend
Telc: the game is getting wrecked by crying
Telc: because there is gear in game that is being used where it shouldn't be used
Mobius_Wyvern: For example?
Telc: any proto gear
Telc: do you seriously want us to be farming hisec players in 6 months?
Telc: think about the game when it has other outlets for players
Telc: ie FW and nullsec
Telc: when FW is released
Telc: the isk payouts in hisec should be radically reduced
Telc: make it too expensive to run proto gear
GoD-NoVa: preach it
Telc: fw payouts should be much better
Telc: so good players go to fw
Telc: yet noone on the forums thinks about this at all
Telc: they just cry and cry about getting stomped
Mobius_Wyvern: Right now there's not really a reason to change
Mobius_Wyvern: Plenty of reason to discuss it
Mobius_Wyvern: But hi-sec is all we have right now
GoD-NoVa: just like in eve if the good players want to get more money and better stuff they need to go to null
Telc: imo its totally counterproductive
Mobius_Wyvern: And we still need to test things
Telc: we aren't testing ****
Mobius_Wyvern: Say what?
Telc: this is just endless thrashing of crappy balance choices
Mobius_Wyvern: Ah, ok
Telc: ie
Telc: we are finely tuning the balance
Telc: for an artificial situation
Telc: a situation I won't be playing
Telc: because its a tedious game this way
Telc: i think that anyone coming into FW before they are ready
Telc: should die really quickly
Telc: ie
Telc: they aren't geared for it
Telc: and they aren't skilled enough for it
Telc: so they have to work for it
Telc: ie "progression"
Mobius_Wyvern: Right
Telc: so these proto suit/proto weapon flattenings
Telc: have harmed a game that doesn't exist yet
Telc: all to make a bunch of whiners happier with the "balance"
Mobius_Wyvern: I gotta agree that I don't see the appeal in pub stomping
Mobius_Wyvern: I'm going for FW as soon as I can
Mobius_Wyvern: And I think a lot of people will be doing the same
Mobius_Wyvern: They only people worried about pub stomping are the pubs
Telc: we'll be waiting ;)

So should standard suits be competitive in nullsec then? Because that's where this game is currently going....

The game needs to stop being balanced around these meaningless pub matches

Weapons and suits, etc still are tiered. Proto stuff still gives you an advantage, just not as much.
Not sure if you were in early builds Ydubbs, but literally a mediocre proto player could crush groups of 2-3 highly skilled players using militia gear. The militia players didn't stand a chance. Now a proto player can still easily dominate in 1v1 against militia (as long as they are the better player)

The problem people have, is that they can no longer 1v3 militia players. (unless the militia players are really bad)

Weapons and suits, etc still are tiered. Proto stuff still gives you an advantage, just not as much.
Not sure if you were in early builds Ydubbs, but literally a mediocre proto player could crush groups of 2-3 highly skilled players using militia gear. The militia players didn't stand a chance. Now a proto player can still easily dominate in 1v1 against militia (as long as they are the better player)

The problem people have, is that they can no longer 1v3 militia players. (unless the militia players are really bad)

This attitude is bad for the game.

I'll explain on irc if you want.

This game should not be about endless hisec matches and unfortunately that is what this game is being balanced for as people cry for proto nerfs etc.

This game should be about newer players and casuals running low ISK matches in standard fits in hisec.

Proto fits in lowsec/FW. Better clans and players.

Officer fits in nullsec. Most dangerous clans and players.

The crying on the forums is ruining the game before it begins.

Weapons and suits, etc still are tiered. Proto stuff still gives you an advantage, just not as much.
Not sure if you were in early builds Ydubbs, but literally a mediocre proto player could crush groups of 2-3 highly skilled players using militia gear. The militia players didn't stand a chance. Now a proto player can still easily dominate in 1v1 against militia (as long as they are the better player)

The problem people have, is that they can no longer 1v3 militia players. (unless the militia players are really bad)

Nah, Codex was my first build......and the 3hp or 10% difference in AR tiers made the most sense. I don't mind if they nerfed the dmage but don't buff the militia at the same time. They've just made GEKs and Blindfires worthless. Yet, the prices remain the same...that's fail logic.

The idea is to graduate from militia gear and you a new player can do that within a week. If you had a GEK, you can battle someone with a duvolle. A militia or STD AR didn't have a chance (unless someone skilled was wielding it) but a GEK did..and that's the idea.

They had it right the first time....an STD Assault rifle can stand up to a GEK and a GEK can stand up to a Duvolle. But an STD can't stand up to a Duvolle and that's how it should be in this game. Players need to graduate to upper tiers instead of asking for freebees. My $150K suit shouldn't be comparable to a $8K suit..or what's the point of it all?

THIS.
and berserker u know me alot better than that to even assume i am arguing to balance anything for lolpubs
im talkin about strict corp v corp matches no pubs

ppl that want gear to be buffed per tier want to feel invincible
guess what? only the rich corps would always have an a HUGE advantage

And mikegunnz is right mediocre players could of easily beat 2-3 in lower gear regardless of skill because they can tank a stupid amount of shots. As mike said ur higher tier gear still gives u a bigger bonus as it is against someone lower tier...those 8 or so shots extra u can tank? yea if ur good that makes the world of difference facing someone who can take 8+ shots less not to mention ur faster kill time since on ur upgraded suit which has more PG and CPU so u can fit a gun that allows u to hit harder + able to fit damage mods that allow that gun to hit even harder while still having more shields than the lower tier guy

what competitive shooter decides fights on gear? the advantages u get are fine as it is minus the heavy which needs more slots almost no reason to upgrade a heavy and price for vk.1 heavy is too high.

if a corp cant fund proto gear but they know FPS SKILL WISE they can take a proto corp using adv gear then why shouldnt they take on that handicap and play? thats how it is now and that allows corps without EVE backing or the very top corps to actually be able to somewhat compete altho at a disadvantage. With the buffs back how they were? well nullsec and FW will be rather EMPTY if only the RICH corps that can constantly run proto gear can play not because of skill but just gear.

And once more skillful corps can get in and play and start making ISK themselves from w/e planets they hold only natural they will upgrade to proto gear but if u keep it locked where proto only or gtfo because of the old buffs then corps wont have much of a chance to break into FW or nullsec.....and besides we all play this game for competition right? what fun would that be NOT having any challengers because u are the richest?

Sorry but if thats the case DUST will be a joke as a competitive game. My opinion.

I think the "ISK system" and the "RPG system" are not compatible now, because the ISK difference between Advance and Proto, for example, is kinda important, and the results using, advance or proto, are kinda the same

I think, no one wants a game where the guy who has more money and have the better things but doesn't have any kind of skill will win against anyone.

I like the ISK idea because that's makes you play carefully and you need to watch how do you play and if is it profitable for you economy, that's why usually i try to play cover, shooting from a "regular" distance with my AR. I played a lot with the B suit and the Duvolle AR or TAR, full shield modules (66) and that worked for me, because i don't go straight to the red points that i see in the map. Then i started to use full Proto gear and i didn't feel so much difference in my experience. What did i feel? Well, i can use a nanoinjector and a nanohive and that's nice. But then, there is not so much difference for me. Why? I don't know, maybe because i don't play face to face the most of the time. You can kill an Assault Suit with a Duvolle clip as a Gek clip, as an exile clip, so why do i want to spend 300 000 + sp to get Proto weapons, if i will get the same result as if i use an advance? The same with Suits. If i play cover and shoot people who doesn't see me first, why do i want to spend 1 200 000 SP to get a Proto Suit, if i kill the guy, before he even shoots me 10 times. When people kill me (usually) they do it from behind, or because i don't see them, or maybe because in a moment i have 3 guys next to me shooting me.

I start to play full Proto gear (with a Duvolle), but even time i died, i lost 220 000+ ISK so i started to use the "exile" rifle and the result are exactly but now, when i die, i just lose 180 000 ISK, so that it makes me ask, why did i spend 320 000 sp to get the skill to use proto weapons, if they cost so much more than advance, and i have the same results. And why did i spend 1 200 000 sp to get a Proto Suit, if people kills me from behind or when they take me 2 or 3 against me and it's the same with B suit but i don't lose a lot of ISK.

I could use those SP to train vehicls skills, or to unblock more weapons, or another suits like advance logi, or heavy, i don't know. The "ISK system" it doesn't complement with the "RPG system" (in my opinion), because you play and play, develop your char to use more advance and expensive things, but you get the same result as using standar things, because it's all based on your skills. That's not RPG at all (in my opinion).

It's a shooter game, i know. It needs to be important the skill of the player, but if it's all about the skill, ISK and SP lose sense.

Proto things are not atractive but i will still using them because the Black Red eyes Assault Suit is very very lovely.

Sorry for the english. See you