DUST Search - Can someone explain to me why did CCP reduce the "stats" difference be...

Konohamaru Sarutobi wrote:

I think the "ISK system" and the "RPG system" are not compatible now, because the ISK difference between Advance and Proto, for example, is kinda important, and the results using, advance or proto, are kinda the same

I think, no one wants a game where the guy who has more money and have the better things but doesn't have any kind of skill will win against anyone.

I like the ISK idea because that's makes you play carefully and you need to watch how do you play and if is it profitable for you economy, that's why usually i try to play cover, shooting from a "regular" distance with my AR. I played a lot with the B suit and the Duvolle AR or TAR, full shield modules (66) and that worked for me, because i don't go straight to the red points that i see in the map. Then i started to use full Proto gear and i didn't feel so much difference in my experience. What did i feel? Well, i can use a nanoinjector and a nanohive and that's nice. But then, there is not so much difference for me. Why? I don't know, maybe because i don't play face to face the most of the time. You can kill an Assault Suit with a Duvolle clip as a Gek clip, as an exile clip, so why do i want to spend 300 000 + sp to get Proto weapons, if i will get the same result as if i use an advance? The same with Suits. If i play cover and shoot people who doesn't see me first, why do i want to spend 1 200 000 SP to get a Proto Suit, if i kill the guy, before he even shoots me 10 times. When people kill me (usually) they do it from behind, or because i don't see them, or maybe because in a moment i have 3 guys next to me shooting me.

I start to play full Proto gear (with a Duvolle), but even time i died, i lost 220 000+ ISK so i started to use the "exile" rifle and the result are exactly but now, when i die, i just lose 180 000 ISK, so that it makes me ask, why did i spend 320 000 sp to get the skill to use proto weapons, if they cost so much more than advance, and i have the same results. And why did i spend 1 200 000 sp to get a Proto Suit, if people kills me from behind or when they take me 2 or 3 against me and it's the same with B suit but i don't lose a lot of ISK.

I could use those SP to train vehicls skills, or to unblock more weapons, or another suits like advance logi, or heavy, i don't know. The "ISK system" it doesn't complement with the "RPG system" (in my opinion), because you play and play, develop your char to use more advance and expensive things, but you get the same result as using standar things, because it's all based on your skills. That's not RPG at all (in my opinion).

It's a shooter game, i know. It needs to be important the skill of the player, but if it's all about the skill, ISK and SP lose sense.

Proto things are not atractive but i will still using them because the Black Red eyes Assault Suit is very very lovely.

Sorry for the english. See you


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Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising 886	Posted - 2012.12.23 14:41:00 - [1] - Quote But isn't the point of having better gear is to give you an advantage? Anyone that wants a certain type of gear can get it and that is where the balance is in the game. Its not like in MAG, where one's guns depended on which faction you chose. So, everyone didn't have the same weapon. But in dust, everyone has access to the same gear. If a duvolle is beating you, then get one and shoot back. Not to mention, I can be have the same militia gear as someone else and still be more high-powered than someone else in militia gear. A guy specced into tanks with 100% of his sp in tanks will still be at a disadvantage to someone who's specced into assault, even iff they're both in militia gear & weapons. Or, I can put damage mods in my fit versus someone who prefer shields...both militia but mine is geared towards offense while his is geared towards defense. Is there still an equal balance? They can nerf the ARs but don't bring them closer together. There's a reason why gear is upper tiered. Nerf the STD AR to 30hp damage to make the difference in levels equal
Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising 886	Posted - 2012.12.23 15:39:00 - [2] - Quote mikegunnz wrote: Weapons and suits, etc still are tiered. Proto stuff still gives you an advantage, just not as much. Not sure if you were in early builds Ydubbs, but literally a mediocre proto player could crush groups of 2-3 highly skilled players using militia gear. The militia players didn't stand a chance. Now a proto player can still easily dominate in 1v1 against militia (as long as they are the better player) The problem people have, is that they can no longer 1v3 militia players. (unless the militia players are really bad) Nah, Codex was my first build......and the 3hp or 10% difference in AR tiers made the most sense. I don't mind if they nerfed the dmage but don't buff the militia at the same time. They've just made GEKs and Blindfires worthless. Yet, the prices remain the same...that's fail logic. The idea is to graduate from militia gear and you a new player can do that within a week. If you had a GEK, you can battle someone with a duvolle. A militia or STD AR didn't have a chance (unless someone skilled was wielding it) but a GEK did..and that's the idea. They had it right the first time....an STD Assault rifle can stand up to a GEK and a GEK can stand up to a Duvolle. But an STD can't stand up to a Duvolle and that's how it should be in this game. Players need to graduate to upper tiers instead of asking for freebees. My $150K suit shouldn't be comparable to a $8K suit..or what's the point of it all?
Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising 886	Posted - 2012.12.23 20:39:00 - [3] - Quote Typed a whole bunch and it didn't even post....nerf this forum. I don't even feel like retyping it now
Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising 886	Posted - 2012.12.24 02:12:00 - [4] - Quote @ Mavado It's not about invincibility, it is about what makes sense. If that's the case, we all would strap on heavy suits with ARs and ball out. They made the adv AR, the GEK, utterly useless. Right now, it is either you use a STD or proto AR. You're wasting time with the GEK. Any skilled corp will be able to fund proto gear for themselves. So, they wouldn't have a problem. And tbh, any corp that can't afford to go to war...should not be going to war. If they can't afford a $50 AR or $90K proto suit, how are they going to fare against $500K and more tanks and dropships?? Because if you don't have vehicles, then you will not win. I don't care if the exile hit harder than the duvolle because the gunnlogi is taking them all down. And tbh, I don't hear anyone talking about the differences in tanks. You'll suggest that a militia shooter should have a chance at a proto shooter. What about a sica vs sagaris? Does the sica have a chance in a match? Again, it doesn't make sense to make the adv and proto obsolete. They can nerf the ARs but the STD ARs should be hitting at 29 or 30. They rendered the GEK, economically useless...there's no point in using it for $17K when you have a free exile or $4K AR that hits about the same. It doesn't make sense...it doesn't make any sense. And seriously, players need to get out of militia gear....when I was first killed by a duvolle. I said, to myself, "man, I have to get that gun so that I can rock with these guys". All that we're doing now is allowing players to continue using STD gear. There should be a reason and incentive for players to graduate. And then bring out their proto gear when they need to. Wars won't be won by gear...they will be won by skill. I wouldn't enter into a battle with a corp unless I knew I had the same gear as they do. And if I don't then I'm going to grind until I do. And I won't be stepping into the big boys space unless I have the same gear as they do. Once, we all have the same gear, then it comes down to strats and skills. If you walk into a gun fight with a knife, you can't blame the game. Because the game supplies the same weapons for everyone.
Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising 886	Posted - 2012.12.24 03:11:00 - [5] - Quote Konohamaru Sarutobi wrote: I think the "ISK system" and the "RPG system" are not compatible now, because the ISK difference between Advance and Proto, for example, is kinda important, and the results using, advance or proto, are kinda the same I think, no one wants a game where the guy who has more money and have the better things but doesn't have any kind of skill will win against anyone. I like the ISK idea because that's makes you play carefully and you need to watch how do you play and if is it profitable for you economy, that's why usually i try to play cover, shooting from a "regular" distance with my AR. I played a lot with the B suit and the Duvolle AR or TAR, full shield modules (66) and that worked for me, because i don't go straight to the red points that i see in the map. Then i started to use full Proto gear and i didn't feel so much difference in my experience. What did i feel? Well, i can use a nanoinjector and a nanohive and that's nice. But then, there is not so much difference for me. Why? I don't know, maybe because i don't play face to face the most of the time. You can kill an Assault Suit with a Duvolle clip as a Gek clip, as an exile clip, so why do i want to spend 300 000 + sp to get Proto weapons, if i will get the same result as if i use an advance? The same with Suits. If i play cover and shoot people who doesn't see me first, why do i want to spend 1 200 000 SP to get a Proto Suit, if i kill the guy, before he even shoots me 10 times. When people kill me (usually) they do it from behind, or because i don't see them, or maybe because in a moment i have 3 guys next to me shooting me. I start to play full Proto gear (with a Duvolle), but even time i died, i lost 220 000+ ISK so i started to use the "exile" rifle and the result are exactly but now, when i die, i just lose 180 000 ISK, so that it makes me ask, why did i spend 320 000 sp to get the skill to use proto weapons, if they cost so much more than advance, and i have the same results. And why did i spend 1 200 000 sp to get a Proto Suit, if people kills me from behind or when they take me 2 or 3 against me and it's the same with B suit but i don't lose a lot of ISK. I could use those SP to train vehicls skills, or to unblock more weapons, or another suits like advance logi, or heavy, i don't know. The "ISK system" it doesn't complement with the "RPG system" (in my opinion), because you play and play, develop your char to use more advance and expensive things, but you get the same result as using standar things, because it's all based on your skills. That's not RPG at all (in my opinion). It's a shooter game, i know. It needs to be important the skill of the player, but if it's all about the skill, ISK and SP lose sense. Proto things are not atractive but i will still using them because the Black Red eyes Assault Suit is very very lovely. Sorry for the english. See you Exactly this...people see PRO and they nervous up as if this person is now invincible. When, in fact, it is the same person who has been killing people and pwning with adv suits. It isn't the shoes...it is the player that decides the match. With grenades, you feel a difference as you level up...the same with forge guns. How come ARs have a useless adv category now? This game is losing its consistency and for what? For who?
Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising 886	Posted - 2012.12.24 03:40:00 - [6] - Quote mikegunnz wrote: You can make the argument that it'll work out well. In high-sec, most will opt for cheap or free suits. Very little at stake. In null-sec, people are fighting for huge contracts, or attacking/defending sov territory. The stakes are high, so even though the proto gear doesn't give a huge advantage, people will use it because there's a lot on the line and they'll want ANY advantage they can get.... regardless of cost. Makes sense to me. Maybe I'm just nuts. But there wouldn't be an advantage if everyone is using adv and proto gear.
Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising 886	Posted - 2012.12.24 04:37:00 - [7] - Quote Mavado V Noriega wrote: Ydubbs81 RND wrote: mikegunnz wrote: You can make the argument that it'll work out well. In high-sec, most will opt for cheap or free suits. Very little at stake. In null-sec, people are fighting for huge contracts, or attacking/defending sov territory. The stakes are high, so even though the proto gear doesn't give a huge advantage, people will use it because there's a lot on the line and they'll want ANY advantage they can get.... regardless of cost. Makes sense to me. Maybe I'm just nuts. But there wouldn't be an advantage if everyone is using adv and proto gear. then ur not fitting ur suits properly Huh? Maybe what I'm saying isn't clear, I guess. So, I'll just use examples. If there are 8 corps in a tourney. And all 8 corps are using proto gear, then there is no advantage because none of them are using STD gear. So, what I'm saying is that in null sec, everyone better have proto gear and be ready to use them.
Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising 886	Posted - 2012.12.24 04:43:00 - [8] - Quote Mavado V Noriega wrote: mikegunnz wrote: You can make the argument that it'll work out well. In high-sec, most will opt for cheap or free suits. Very little at stake. In null-sec, people are fighting for huge contracts, or attacking/defending sov territory. The stakes are high, so even though the proto gear doesn't give a huge advantage, people will use it because there's a lot on the line and they'll want ANY advantage they can get.... regardless of cost. Makes sense to me. Maybe I'm just nuts. someone is thinking. +1 When someone is paying u big bucks to secure a planet for them ur gonna roll in ur best gear anyway so what if X corp best gear is only Adv lvl should they be automatically curb stomped because the difference in gear gives proto 300 more shields than adv? thats gear winning ur fights for u not ur skill As a FPS player thats a big ass crutch and NO srs competitive clan will come to this game and stick around for such an inbalance And guess what? when the proto corp in that scenario wins easily they will continue to get richer and richer and the poorer corps find it almost impossible to make any dent when trying to take their planets because of gear which results in actually LESS competition happening because then only the few top corps who been winning non stop can keep funding more and more proto gear and that puts the top corps with little to no risk at losing unless someone can match their funds 1st and foremost then gotta worry about matching their skill If they can't afford a duvolle, how will they afford vehicles? Without vehicles, they won't stand a chance...no matter what sort of assault suit they have. It's just like in pubs when guys roll in with tanks against new players or guys with no real AV skills yet. What were people saying? "Adapt or die", right?
Ydubbs81 RND Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising 886	Posted - 2012.12.24 04:51:00 - [9] - Quote Konohamaru Sarutobi wrote: Logi Bro wrote: I don't like this discussion just because there is no good way to answer it. If you want gear to become exponentially better with each tier, then there is zero chance for people that use lower tier to win, in RPGs this makes sense, in FPSs, it is completely counter-intuitive, and here lies the problem. The big question is: Is Dust 514 a RPG foremost, or an FPS foremost? +1 If it's a FPS foremost. The SP/ISK difference between standar, advance and proto is too high just to get the same results based in your skills Dust is not like any other shooter out there. None of them are using rpg elements. If players like the gameplay, then they will stick it out to get better weapons so they can compete. Dust can be both, carving out its own niche and paving the way for a new genre of console shooters.