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Konohamaru Sarutobi
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Legacy Rising
91
   |
Posted - 2012.12.22 17:56:00 -
[1] - Quote
What's the point of playing a RPG if you can't develop your character and have so much better things?
I mean, SP loses sense if you play to get better and use Proto things but you have not so much difference with an "advance" guy or a "milita" guy.
You need to play like 3 weeks and get all the SP just to train the skill to use Proto suits. If you spend 1 240 000 SP in just 1 skill, i think you want to feel powerful, stronger, etc, but it doesn't look to have a great difference with advance suits, or combat II suit, and you already need to be worried about don't die to preserve your ISK.
Also with weapons. The difference between Proto and Standar weapons, it's not so much, at least in AR.
I just want to know the reason of this "change" because now, SP it doesn't look so important for me.
Sorry for the english. See you |
Konohamaru Sarutobi
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Legacy Rising
91
|
Posted - 2012.12.22 19:42:00 -
[2] - Quote
I'm reading all what you say. I just want to say that i couldn't get the Proto Suit before this new build so i don't know how it was.
I made the question because i saw some threads talking about this "nerf". Also i saw in the patch note something about "reduce" the difference so i just wanted to know why.
edited: PS: i don't recomend Google Translator. It's so much bad
PS2: Anyone knows the color of the Proto Scout suit (with ISK)? Like the Proto Asault wich is black? |
Konohamaru Sarutobi
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Legacy Rising
91
|
Posted - 2012.12.23 01:24:00 -
[3] - Quote
Berserker007 wrote:i have to agree w/ Telc, Mavado. As it currently stands, what you are asking for is to allow people of equal skill to be on equal footing running basic gear as proto gear.
Yes, personal skill will give edges; but gear ALSO needs to give a reasonable edge, w/o being to destroying. There is a problem when you say basic should compete equally with proto gear. This then raising the question as to what is the point of progressing in the game. If you can run basic gear 24/7 and compete w/ proto gear 24/7, then sense of SP becomes useless. Proto will give you a few extra trinkets, but as it is, it is minimal. Extra high slot; yippy, get extra 22-66 shield, meaning 1-2 bullets which u wont even really notice; or extra damage, that is isn't that noticeable either.
If player A competes equally to player B in (assume equal skill); then why wait time and SP to upgrade your guns, your dropsuits, your armor, etc? The idea of minimizing the gear gap; reduces the need for progress. I haven't played many MMO's, as mainly been an fps players; but in MMO's i believe, a lv 1 character will NEVER be on par with a lv 50 character no matter skill. Part of this NEEDS to be addressed; as everyone is saying this is an FPS first, which it isn't. It is equally and FPS and MMO at the same time, so need to take parts of each game together and not weight one more-so then the other.
Yes, new players should be at a disadvantage to experienced players, to an extent. However everyone is being caught up in how it works in the beta as we only have pub matches. On full release, these players will be split so there shouldn't have been a reason to alter weapon play to make things more even; as that is what match type will do in full release.
I was thinking something like this |
Konohamaru Sarutobi
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Legacy Rising
91
|
Posted - 2012.12.23 10:43:00 -
[4] - Quote
I'm not the kind of player who go straight to a red point and try to be God against all the guys, so i can't feel a important "difference" between Proto suit and B suit for example. I mean, yes, i have more slots, i can have 66+ in my shield and that's equal to i don't know, 1/2 clip of an AR, or maybe 0.5 sec of a laser rifle.
That's why i can't feel that spend 1 200 000 to get the skill to use Proto gear worths the effort. But if i die, i can feel the difference, because it cost like 30 000+ that advance gear.
For example, i was using full Proto things (with Duvolle) so my suit cost 230+, but then i tried to use the "exile" rifle, and the result was kinda the same that using Duvolle but without spend like 50 000+ so i felt that spend 610 000 sp to use Proto AR was a waste of SP.
Also with the Proto gear. I mean, i love the black suit and have 2 equipment, but that's all. I need to be carreful about don't get die so i don't need to spend 160+ for every suit.
That's why i asked the point of "nerf" the proto things. If you play for months, and spend your SP in proto gears, you don't want to feel like a Militia Guy. or something like that.
you need to play for like 2 month to train all your Suit skills. Why will you spend your SP on proto things, when you can spend it on vehicls and have all the proto vehicles.
I just feel that SP lose a lot of sense |
Konohamaru Sarutobi
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Legacy Rising
91
|
Posted - 2012.12.24 02:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
I think the "ISK system" and the "RPG system" are not compatible now, because the ISK difference between Advance and Proto, for example, is kinda important, and the results using, advance or proto, are kinda the same
I think, no one wants a game where the guy who has more money and have the better things but doesn't have any kind of skill will win against anyone.
I like the ISK idea because that's makes you play carefully and you need to watch how do you play and if is it profitable for you economy, that's why usually i try to play cover, shooting from a "regular" distance with my AR. I played a lot with the B suit and the Duvolle AR or TAR, full shield modules (66) and that worked for me, because i don't go straight to the red points that i see in the map. Then i started to use full Proto gear and i didn't feel so much difference in my experience. What did i feel? Well, i can use a nanoinjector and a nanohive and that's nice. But then, there is not so much difference for me. Why? I don't know, maybe because i don't play face to face the most of the time. You can kill an Assault Suit with a Duvolle clip as a Gek clip, as an exile clip, so why do i want to spend 300 000 + sp to get Proto weapons, if i will get the same result as if i use an advance? The same with Suits. If i play cover and shoot people who doesn't see me first, why do i want to spend 1 200 000 SP to get a Proto Suit, if i kill the guy, before he even shoots me 10 times. When people kill me (usually) they do it from behind, or because i don't see them, or maybe because in a moment i have 3 guys next to me shooting me.
I start to play full Proto gear (with a Duvolle), but even time i died, i lost 220 000+ ISK so i started to use the "exile" rifle and the result are exactly but now, when i die, i just lose 180 000 ISK, so that it makes me ask, why did i spend 320 000 sp to get the skill to use proto weapons, if they cost so much more than advance, and i have the same results. And why did i spend 1 200 000 sp to get a Proto Suit, if people kills me from behind or when they take me 2 or 3 against me and it's the same with B suit but i don't lose a lot of ISK.
I could use those SP to train vehicls skills, or to unblock more weapons, or another suits like advance logi, or heavy, i don't know. The "ISK system" it doesn't complement with the "RPG system" (in my opinion), because you play and play, develop your char to use more advance and expensive things, but you get the same result as using standar things, because it's all based on your skills. That's not RPG at all (in my opinion).
It's a shooter game, i know. It needs to be important the skill of the player, but if it's all about the skill, ISK and SP lose sense.
Proto things are not atractive but i will still using them because the Black Red eyes Assault Suit is very very lovely.
Sorry for the english. See you |
Konohamaru Sarutobi
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Legacy Rising
91
|
Posted - 2012.12.24 03:46:00 -
[6] - Quote
Mavado V Noriega wrote:mikegunnz wrote:You can make the argument that it'll work out well. In high-sec, most will opt for cheap or free suits. Very little at stake. In null-sec, people are fighting for huge contracts, or attacking/defending sov territory. The stakes are high, so even though the proto gear doesn't give a huge advantage, people will use it because there's a lot on the line and they'll want ANY advantage they can get.... regardless of cost. Makes sense to me. Maybe I'm just nuts.  someone is thinking. +1 When someone is paying u big bucks to secure a planet for them ur gonna roll in ur best gear anyway so what if X corp best gear is only Adv lvl should they be automatically curb stomped because the difference in gear gives proto 300 more shields than adv? thats gear winning ur fights for u not ur skill As a FPS player thats a big ass crutch and NO srs competitive clan will come to this game and stick around for such an inbalance And guess what? when the proto corp in that scenario wins easily they will continue to get richer and richer and the poorer corps find it almost impossible to make any dent when trying to take their planets because of gear which results in actually LESS competition happening because then only the few top corps who been winning non stop can keep funding more and more proto gear and that puts the top corps with little to no risk at losing unless someone can match their funds 1st and foremost then gotta worry about matching their skill
But you both are talking about "corp" battles. That's means as a "random" player, i can't enjoy the game 100% because some things are thinking just for corp battles. Thanks for forcing me to join in a corp. (Sarcasm)
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Konohamaru Sarutobi
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Legacy Rising
91
|
Posted - 2012.12.24 04:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
mikegunnz wrote:Konohamaru Sarutobi wrote:Mavado V Noriega wrote:mikegunnz wrote:You can make the argument that it'll work out well. In high-sec, most will opt for cheap or free suits. Very little at stake. In null-sec, people are fighting for huge contracts, or attacking/defending sov territory. The stakes are high, so even though the proto gear doesn't give a huge advantage, people will use it because there's a lot on the line and they'll want ANY advantage they can get.... regardless of cost. Makes sense to me. Maybe I'm just nuts. someone is thinking. +1 When someone is paying u big bucks to secure a planet for them ur gonna roll in ur best gear anyway so what if X corp best gear is only Adv lvl should they be automatically curb stomped because the difference in gear gives proto 300 more shields than adv? thats gear winning ur fights for u not ur skill As a FPS player thats a big ass crutch and NO srs competitive clan will come to this game and stick around for such an inbalance And guess what? when the proto corp in that scenario wins easily they will continue to get richer and richer and the poorer corps find it almost impossible to make any dent when trying to take their planets because of gear which results in actually LESS competition happening because then only the few top corps who been winning non stop can keep funding more and more proto gear and that puts the top corps with little to no risk at losing unless someone can match their funds 1st and foremost then gotta worry about matching their skill But you both are talking about "corp" battles. That's means as a "random" player, i can't enjoy the game 100% because some things are thinking just for corp battles. Thanks for forcing me to join in a corp. (Sarcasm) This applies to highsec pubs as well. If I'm new to game, I'll roll in a free suit I have a chance against some guy rolling in a 120-140k isk proto fit. They will STILL have an advantage, but I have a chance against them... if I'm a better player. This will keep me wanting to play and progress, so that I can eventually kill the guys that are of equal skill to me. (which I wouldn't be able to kill at the start, because the small advantage that proto gives, is enough to keep them killing me)
If you have Proto gear, it's because you play and you have some skills, with those skills (bad or good), you can use advance or standar weapons and make the same gameplay because in this game, at least you're a good Heavy, you can't go against 3 or 4 guys, because 1 clip of a standar weapon can kill you, so you need to play carrefully and don't get a lot of shoots, and that's ok, but if i don't feel diference between playing an advance/standar gear or a proto gear, why do i need to feel the diference when i die? ISK difference doesn't compensate the advantages of a Proto gear, that's why it's not atractive spend a lot of SP and ISK.
Like i said, it's more atractive the black color. |
Konohamaru Sarutobi
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Legacy Rising
91
|
Posted - 2012.12.24 04:02:00 -
[8] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:I don't like this discussion just because there is no good way to answer it.
If you want gear to become exponentially better with each tier, then there is zero chance for people that use lower tier to win, in RPGs this makes sense, in FPSs, it is completely counter-intuitive, and here lies the problem.
The big question is: Is Dust 514 a RPG foremost, or an FPS foremost?
+1
If it's a FPS foremost. The SP/ISK difference between standar, advance and proto is too high just to get the same results based in your skills |
Konohamaru Sarutobi
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Legacy Rising
91
|
Posted - 2012.12.24 04:14:00 -
[9] - Quote
@mikegunnz
You don't need to spend SP to unblock a skill to learn how to drive a cheap car and then spend x10 to learn how to drive a Ferrari, you just need more ISK.
With your example, give me the option to buy standar and proto gear at the same level, just make it with ISK difference |
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