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Vrain Matari ZionTCD Legacy Rising 404	Posted - 2012.10.08 18:32:00 - [1] - Quote FF ON. This is the community consensus. Given the type of player that is attracted to DUST, EVE, New Eden it's unimaginable that when the game goes live, FF is disabled. It will pollute people's idea of what New Eden is. It will send the wrong message to visitors during their very first moments in New Eden. We know why: CCP doesn't want team griefing to ruin the new player experience in hisec pub matches. Our job as Beta testers is twofold: We need to make sure that CCP gets the message re FF ON. Loud and clear. Give CCP your opinion, and tell them why you feel that way. Make it short, sweet and to the point. We need to throw alternative ideas at CCP. Good, bad, half-baked - doesn't matter. The other peeps on this forum or CCP themselves will refine your idea if it has merit, or hybridize it with somebody else's idea or use the two ideas to synthesize a whole new and better way of looking at the problem. The point is, if FF ON is important to you, you gotta think of a way to solve the FF griefing problem and then tell CCP about it. My proposed solution is this: Any merc must be able to kill any other merc in any situation. That's New Eden. FF-Team and FF-Squad kills on every merc's public record. Let the solution to team killers come from the community. Allow squad leaders to set a FF-to-Enemies killed auto-reject filter for squad membership. No warpoints ofc for FF kills. Tempted to ask for a WP penalty but something doesn't smell right about that approach - can't verbalize it right now. My merc hates rules so I'm gonna stop there. New Eden is no place for unnecessary rules.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.10.08 18:35:00 - [2] - Quote CCP has already stated that FF will be off in High Sec, on in Null Sec, and that they haven't quited decided about Low Sec.
Villore Isu Algintal Core Gallente Federation 115	Posted - 2012.10.08 18:59:00 - [3] - Quote Veigar Mordekaiser wrote: CCP has already stated that FF will be off in High Sec, on in Null Sec, and that they haven't quited decided about Low Sec. That's the beauty of the game being in beta, CCP still has time to realise what a terrible idea it is to have FF turned off, regardless of security.
Virex Staz Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 53	Posted - 2012.10.08 19:00:00 - [4] - Quote Maybe low-sec should have a hybrid system. Team captain can activate a module that disables FF but gives a rate-of-fire penalty to his team or something.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.10.08 19:00:00 - [5] - Quote Villore Isu wrote: That's the beauty of the game being in beta, CCP still has time to realise what a terrible idea it is to have FF turned off, regardless of security. Except for the part where it isn't a terrible idea, right? It may also be safe to gander that HighSec may have a "hardcore mode" like CoD and BF, so players can choose. What matchmaking game have you ever played that had FF on 100% of the time? Virex Staz wrote: Maybe low-sec should have a hybrid system. Team captain can activate a module that disables FF but gives a rate-of-fire penalty to his team or something. Honestly, i don't see how that would make any sense.
VirtualxBucaneer ROGUE SPADES 44	Posted - 2012.10.08 19:01:00 - [6] - Quote Is going to be chaotic, which is interesting.
Victor 'LifeLine' Ramous SyNergy Gaming 242	Posted - 2012.10.08 19:02:00 - [7] - Quote Hisec make FF off, but FW (and CCP already stated null would be) should have FF imo. FW will be a more team based thing, and i know they want to make it open to solo'rs as well, and thats cool, they can participate as well. Only reason i say FF off for hisec is because griefers would love to **** around in hisec and it would be much less team orientated
Villore Isu Algintal Core Gallente Federation 115	Posted - 2012.10.08 19:12:00 - [8] - Quote Veigar Mordekaiser wrote: Villore Isu wrote: That's the beauty of the game being in beta, CCP still has time to realise what a terrible idea it is to have FF turned off, regardless of security. Except for the part where it isn't a terrible idea, right? It may also be safe to gander that HighSec may have a "hardcore mode" like CoD and BF, so players can choose. What matchmaking game have you ever played that had FF on 100% of the time? Halo (barring some special novelty game types - 'Rocket racing' comes to mind here...) In CoD and BF you have so little health that FF would result in lots of accidental kills, but in Dust (and Halo) you can take quite a few hits, enough to mean that if you regularly team kill you are either an awful player, extremely careless with AoE weapons / vehicles, or doing it on purpose. Ofc there should be way to kick players from matches for team killing maybe with a ISK and/or WP peanalty per kill, and as a nice bonus, if FF had a penalty attached, it might also reduce OB spamming.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2012.10.08 19:18:00 - [9] - Quote It isn't the community consensus. It's the opinion of a handful of people who don't necessarily have the best interests of the game in mind. FF on for average games would be a disaster. You have not given this much thought. Spending a significant part of every game fighting with squads of team killers to even get away from your spawn would not be enjoyable.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.10.08 19:20:00 - [10] - Quote I just don't see how it would make sense in High Sec. We all know there would be griefers, noobs with laser rifles, mass drivers, forge guns, and HMG's. I think it would cause a lot of crying. Unless it's done as it was done in MAG (High Sec only I'm talking about) where an accidental shot dealt no damage, but continued fire would kill a friendly.

G Dubya Bush Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 5	Posted - 2012.10.08 19:27:00 - [11] - Quote Well if we want to make it analogous to EVE, then we should have autokicks for TK in high sec (like getting concorded), then vote to kick in low/nullsec. Maybe autokick in low sec if you do it in the spawn area (like jumpgate turrets). FF should be always be on, at the very least to counter the cheese orbital strike in the middle of a fight for an objective, since you can't respawn before the enemy has hacked it. Or to counter planting and blowing remote charges on your teammates. Oh, and to counter spamming grenades into a firefight. Really to stop any AOE damage spam.
8404-0000 GREEN Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 20	Posted - 2012.10.08 19:27:00 - [12] - Quote FF on for orbital strikes for sure, maybe reduced for team killing, add in a penalty for killing a team mate that could end in a kick, Heck Killzone 2 wouldn't give you the good conduct (more ammo at spawn) ribbon unless you went X number of matches w/o a friendly fire incident. That really cut down on rocket spamming.
843 pano 843 Boot Camp 200	Posted - 2012.10.08 19:30:00 - [13] - Quote It's on all the time in MAG and is not a big problem. You might get a TKer, but they get called out and kicked from the game or targeted for repeated killing. It makes you really think about your shots and where your team mates are. If it is to be on only in null sec, then the rewards for null sec SP and ISK need to be adjusted in accordance to the skill needed to play in that environment.
Villore Isu Algintal Core Gallente Federation 115	Posted - 2012.10.08 19:34:00 - [14] - Quote Fivetimes Infinity wrote: It isn't the community consensus. It's the opinion of a handful of people who don't necessarily have the best interests of the game in mind. FF on for average games would be a disaster. You have not given this much thought. Spending a significant part of every game fighting with squads of team killers to even get away from your spawn would not be enjoyable. Give them das boot. Problem. Solved. I reiterate, Halo has FF on in nearly all game types and I challenge you to say that it is not a successful game, or that it is not a game for average players. As long as there are measures in place to deal with team killers such as booting, reduced (or maybe even negative) rewards at the end of a match etc. then there is no real reason why FF should not be on. Fake Edit: A system where you did reduced damage to team-mates (or increasing damage - kinda like the laser rifle) would be a good compromise, actions still have consequences, but accidents are not so brutally punished.
GarryKE Omnispace Trading Company 60	Posted - 2012.10.08 19:34:00 - [15] - Quote Then there will be the people who intentionally log in to play the game while recording for their thousands of Youtube subscribers, just to start team killing everyone and shouting crap down the microphone at your team. Then Dust will join the likes of BF and MW3 and all that junk. So there would need to be some penalising system wherein users will be kicked and lose an amount of ISK and/or SP and not able to join the servers for 10 minutes after. Let's be serious for a minute - if people want it it will need to be a lot more controlled than any other game supports. Look at clone fights for example. Think how wrong they can go if this was enabled. Precistion Strikes and Orbital Bombardments should definitely enable it but anything else I'm not quite sure.
Jariel Manton SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 210	Posted - 2012.10.08 19:37:00 - [16] - Quote Villore Isu wrote: Veigar Mordekaiser wrote: CCP has already stated that FF will be off in High Sec, on in Null Sec, and that they haven't quited decided about Low Sec. That's the beauty of the game being in beta, CCP still has time to realise what a terrible idea it is to have FF turned off, regardless of security. Your opinion, not mine, having it the way it is now in high sec is the right call.
Terram Nenokal BetaMax. 115	Posted - 2012.10.08 19:43:00 - [17] - Quote Just spitballing, but here are some suggestions to get the ball rolling: Sec status loss: Enough FF will net you permanent duty in lowsec and below until you grind enough sleeper missions to regain highsec access Self damage: CONCORD controlled merc life support, FF converts to 150% self damage scaled against total HP Weapon disabling: CONCORD controlled weapon jamming, enough FF results in temporary offlining of weapons. Neutral tagging: Enough FF turns you into a red for both teams. Team notification: Enough FF prompts your team to votekick you Or maybe some combination of these. It makes sense to have FF off in highsec, but the Eve player in me really wants to see it on at all times.
Bosse Ansgar 47	Posted - 2012.10.08 19:43:00 - [18] - Quote G Dubya Bush wrote: Well if we want to make it analogous to EVE, then we should have autokicks for TK in high sec (like getting concorded), then vote to kick in low/nullsec. Maybe autokick in low sec if you do it in the spawn area (like jumpgate turrets). FF should be always be on, at the very least to counter the cheese orbital strike in the middle of a fight for an objective, since you can't respawn before the enemy has hacked it. Or to counter planting and blowing remote charges on your teammates. Oh, and to counter spamming grenades into a firefight. Really to stop any AOE damage spam. Hell no. ** no, no, * no, no ***** way. I've said it before and I'll say it again, NO KICKING. If you allow kicking under any circumstances this game will devolve into a futuristic SOCOM knock off before you know it, and SOCOM brats will be kicking team and squadmates off their team because "Do you know that guy? I don't know him. Vote him out before the match starts". I've been there, I've been the victim of it and been friends with people who were the victims of it, and it is BULLSHIT. NOTHING ruins a game faster than getting kicked. NO one should be able to vote you out, not out of a match or a squad, for ANY reason. If you want to lay a hefty penalty of team killing I'm all for it, but adding a kicking feature is BEGGING to ruin this game's open nature and overall enjoyment. I'd sooner have no friendly fire if it means adding kicking feature. If you can't have friendly fire without coming up with an alternative to kicking, then don't add friendly fire. Ever.
G Dubya Bush Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 5	Posted - 2012.10.08 19:50:00 - [19] - Quote Terram Nenokal wrote: Just spitballing, but here are some suggestions to get the ball rolling: Sec status loss: Enough FF will net you permanent duty in lowsec and below until you grind enough sleeper missions to regain highsec access Self damage: CONCORD controlled merc life support, FF converts to 150% self damage scaled against total HP Weapon disabling: CONCORD controlled weapon jamming, enough FF results in temporary offlining of weapons. Neutral tagging: Enough FF turns you into a red for both teams. Team notification: Enough FF prompts your team to votekick you Or maybe some combination of these. It makes sense to have FF off in highsec, but the Eve player in me really wants to see it on at all times. I like these ideas especially the status loss and self damage ideas. Of course they would have to be scaled down as the security level decreases. I think people who keep bringing up the "then people will grief and tk all the time" argument should go play some games with tk on. I have played a lot of halo and COD hardcore mode, and experienced very little team killing. When I do, the players are kicked with a quickness. And yes, I have gotten kicked accidentally through my own stupidity and poor aim, but I just joined another game, and chalked it up to experience
Bosse Ansgar 47	Posted - 2012.10.08 19:52:00 - [20] - Quote Terram Nenokal wrote: Just spitballing, but here are some suggestions to get the ball rolling: Sec status loss: Enough FF will net you permanent duty in lowsec and below until you grind enough sleeper missions to regain highsec access Self damage: CONCORD controlled merc life support, FF converts to 150% self damage scaled against total HP Weapon disabling: CONCORD controlled weapon jamming, enough FF results in temporary offlining of weapons. Neutral tagging: Enough FF turns you into a red for both teams. Team notification: Enough FF prompts your team to votekick you Or maybe some combination of these. It makes sense to have FF off in highsec, but the Eve player in me really wants to see it on at all times. Except for that last one, I think every one of these are spectacular ideas. Especially the "Sec status loss" and the "Neutral tagging". I think a combination of those two with weapon disabling would be a PERFECT solution. How about this: If you kill one ally you loose 125 WP and you only gain half WP for the rest of the match. If you kill one ally and take another's shields down, your weapon disables and you are tagged as a target by both teams. If you do this in 5 matches, you are stuck in lowsec until you complete enough sleeper missions to regain highsec access.

SGT Garrisson On The Brink 60	Posted - 2012.10.08 19:56:00 - [21] - Quote they could also add dmg reduction to FF normal weapon dmg in nullsec -75% in lowsec -50% in high so u would do half dmg in highsec to friendlies unless u actually want to TK this would make the TK use twice as much ammo in highsec
G Dubya Bush Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 5	Posted - 2012.10.08 19:59:00 - [22] - Quote Bosse Ansgar wrote: G Dubya Bush wrote: Well if we want to make it analogous to EVE, then we should have autokicks for TK in high sec (like getting concorded), then vote to kick in low/nullsec. Maybe autokick in low sec if you do it in the spawn area (like jumpgate turrets). FF should be always be on, at the very least to counter the cheese orbital strike in the middle of a fight for an objective, since you can't respawn before the enemy has hacked it. Or to counter planting and blowing remote charges on your teammates. Oh, and to counter spamming grenades into a firefight. Really to stop any AOE damage spam. Hell no. ** no, no, * no, no ***** way. I've said it before and I'll say it again, NO KICKING. If you allow kicking under any circumstances this game will devolve into a futuristic SOCOM knock off before you know it, and SOCOM brats will be kicking team and squadmates off their team because "Do you know that guy? I don't know him. Vote him out before the match starts". I've been there, I've been the victim of it and been friends with people who were the victims of it, and it is BULLSHIT. NOTHING ruins a game faster than getting kicked. NO one should be able to vote you out, not out of a match or a squad, for ANY reason. If you want to lay a hefty penalty of team killing I'm all for it, but adding a kicking feature is BEGGING to ruin this game's open nature and overall enjoyment. I'd sooner have no friendly fire if it means adding kicking feature. If you can't have friendly fire without coming up with an alternative to kicking, then don't add friendly fire. Ever. I think the idea of vote kick is that you would have to team kill before a vote kick. I totally agree there shouldn't be a "vote to kick player A without a prior condition being met" button. But an autovote to kick someone who has several TK's. Yes. Definitely.
STB Vermaak Doe 558	Posted - 2012.10.08 20:30:00 - [23] - Quote Veigar Mordekaiser wrote: I just don't see how it would make sense in High Sec. We all know there would be griefers, noobs with laser rifles, mass drivers, forge guns, and HMG's. I think it would cause a lot of crying. Unless it's done as it was done in MAG (High Sec only I'm talking about) where an accidental shot dealt no damage, but continued fire would kill a friendly. Actually, most tking noobs will be using the ar as it is easy to use effectively
STB Vermaak Doe 558	Posted - 2012.10.08 20:32:00 - [24] - Quote G Dubya Bush wrote: Bosse Ansgar wrote: G Dubya Bush wrote: Well if we want to make it analogous to EVE, then we should have autokicks for TK in high sec (like getting concorded), then vote to kick in low/nullsec. Maybe autokick in low sec if you do it in the spawn area (like jumpgate turrets). FF should be always be on, at the very least to counter the cheese orbital strike in the middle of a fight for an objective, since you can't respawn before the enemy has hacked it. Or to counter planting and blowing remote charges on your teammates. Oh, and to counter spamming grenades into a firefight. Really to stop any AOE damage spam. Hell no. ** no, no, * no, no ***** way. I've said it before and I'll say it again, NO KICKING. If you allow kicking under any circumstances this game will devolve into a futuristic SOCOM knock off before you know it, and SOCOM brats will be kicking team and squadmates off their team because "Do you know that guy? I don't know him. Vote him out before the match starts". I've been there, I've been the victim of it and been friends with people who were the victims of it, and it is BULLSHIT. NOTHING ruins a game faster than getting kicked. NO one should be able to vote you out, not out of a match or a squad, for ANY reason. If you want to lay a hefty penalty of team killing I'm all for it, but adding a kicking feature is BEGGING to ruin this game's open nature and overall enjoyment. I'd sooner have no friendly fire if it means adding kicking feature. If you can't have friendly fire without coming up with an alternative to kicking, then don't add friendly fire. Ever. I think the idea of vote kick is that you would have to team kill before a vote kick. I totally agree there shouldn't be a "vote to kick player A without a prior condition being met" button. But an autovote to kick someone who has several TK's. Yes. Definitely. Kicking is a bad idea for low/null, that ruins the fun
Sandromin Hes Sand Mercenary Corps Inc. 204	Posted - 2012.10.08 20:33:00 - [25] - Quote When they want to test null-sec, they'll include FF
Bosse Ansgar 47	Posted - 2012.10.08 20:42:00 - [26] - Quote G Dubya Bush wrote: Bosse Ansgar wrote: G Dubya Bush wrote: Well if we want to make it analogous to EVE, then we should have autokicks for TK in high sec (like getting concorded), then vote to kick in low/nullsec. Maybe autokick in low sec if you do it in the spawn area (like jumpgate turrets). FF should be always be on, at the very least to counter the cheese orbital strike in the middle of a fight for an objective, since you can't respawn before the enemy has hacked it. Or to counter planting and blowing remote charges on your teammates. Oh, and to counter spamming grenades into a firefight. Really to stop any AOE damage spam. Hell no. ** no, no, * no, no ***** way. I've said it before and I'll say it again, NO KICKING. If you allow kicking under any circumstances this game will devolve into a futuristic SOCOM knock off before you know it, and SOCOM brats will be kicking team and squadmates off their team because "Do you know that guy? I don't know him. Vote him out before the match starts". I've been there, I've been the victim of it and been friends with people who were the victims of it, and it is BULLSHIT. NOTHING ruins a game faster than getting kicked. NO one should be able to vote you out, not out of a match or a squad, for ANY reason. If you want to lay a hefty penalty of team killing I'm all for it, but adding a kicking feature is BEGGING to ruin this game's open nature and overall enjoyment. I'd sooner have no friendly fire if it means adding kicking feature. If you can't have friendly fire without coming up with an alternative to kicking, then don't add friendly fire. Ever. I think the idea of vote kick is that you would have to team kill before a vote kick. I totally agree there shouldn't be a "vote to kick player A without a prior condition being met" button. But an autovote to kick someone who has several TK's. Yes. Definitely. The only, ONLY circumstance in which I could agree to kicking is for cheating like reppers who are trying to boost points in a corner of a map by damaging vehicles, and only then by reporting them to a moderator via a chat menu option, who would then make the decision to kick them or not. If it is in any way controlled by players, there will be an outcry for the option to be expanded and there you go down the slippery slope to SOCOM. Kicking is a bad idea, and being voted out by your team is a harsh feeling that makes you not want to play the game, whether it's because you are a bad shot or your doing it on purpose. Penalize it similar to how Terram Nenokal mentioned (minus the kicking) and the problem will be solved without the need for any kicking.
Dred B Bourne Dred's Mission Runners 0	Posted - 2012.10.08 20:51:00 - [27] - Quote Terram Nenokal wrote: Just spitballing, but here are some suggestions to get the ball rolling: Sec status loss: Enough FF will net you permanent duty in lowsec and below until you grind enough sleeper missions to regain highsec access Self damage: CONCORD controlled merc life support, FF converts to 150% self damage scaled against total HP Weapon disabling: CONCORD controlled weapon jamming, enough FF results in temporary offlining of weapons. Neutral tagging: Enough FF turns you into a red for both teams. Team notification: Enough FF prompts your team to votekick you Or maybe some combination of these. It makes sense to have FF off in highsec, but the Eve player in me really wants to see it on at all times. I agree with the conclusion that there should be absolutely no Kick/ban in Dust. That said everything but the last one fits well. How about for that last one that player looses 1/4 of their war point per Friendly killed and the Standard Fee in isk is taken from their pay. Meaning that their mission could have a net loss if they kill to many with FF
Reimus Klinsman BetaMax. 319	Posted - 2012.10.08 20:52:00 - [28] - Quote Perhaps they should have FF off in a training ground that pays worse than highsec. People can get used to how the game operates and move to highsec when they are ready.
Rorian Gray HavoK Core 12	Posted - 2012.10.08 21:02:00 - [29] - Quote I also want to see FF ON. I've never played console FPSs prior to DUST so I consider myself a noob somewhat also. As long as there is a notice before the first match reminding a new player that FF is ON there shouldn't be any concerns about it happening overly much if unintentional. What I would like to see instead is a mechanic for a team leader/squad leader to turn off a member's re-cloning access mid-match and/or un-flag them as friendly [or even some form of vote-to-kick]. This would handle griefers just fine while still allowing some skullduggery such as the merc who just got paid by the other team to mis-mark the orbital bombardment target.
Eskel Bondfree DUST University Ivy League 76	Posted - 2012.10.08 21:29:00 - [30] - Quote I'd like to add that there is already a penalty in place for team killing: you get -50 WP. Try this: hop into a LAV with a team mate, damage it until armor starts to burn, and wait until the both of you blow up. The driver will receive a team kill for that, at least I did. I think I went from 35 WP to 0 for that, so negative WP are not possible I guess. Other than that, I'm all for FF, even on random matches. I used to play BF with FF on whenever possible, because it makes people think before they act. That's the reason why I prefer FF, but I guess it's a matter of taste, just like the arcade fps vs. tactical fps debate.

Threvis Valan Doomheim 40	Posted - 2012.10.08 21:54:00 - [31] - Quote some of you need to reevaluates to go about your desire for a hardcore game. FF is basic and fundamental. teamkillers? VTK them. griefing? EVE is griefing. more importantly, it allows moles and traitors to go about the business of betrayal. the benefits of friendly fire FAR outweigh the negatives. choose your targets wisely and you'll never have a problem. this isnt EZ MODE. scared of FF? you should be embarassed.
Aijul ZionTCD Legacy Rising 55	Posted - 2012.10.08 22:01:00 - [32] - Quote Final Fantasy ON? (I have no clue what FF is)
Bosse Ansgar 47	Posted - 2012.10.08 22:05:00 - [33] - Quote Threvis Valan wrote: some of you need to reevaluates to go about your desire for a hardcore game. FF is basic and fundamental. teamkillers? VTK them. griefing? EVE is griefing. more importantly, it allows moles and traitors to go about the business of betrayal. the benefits of friendly fire FAR outweigh the negatives. choose your targets wisely and you'll never have a problem. this isnt EZ MODE. scared of FF? you should be embarassed. You are mistaking this for a hardcore game. Not one dev or GM has ever said this is supposed to be a hardcore FPS game. Moreover you come in here blab your opinion and don't even realize that the majority of this debate isn't whether to have FF or not, it's about the rules and penalties involved. The majority of us are fine with it as long as the punishments are correct. VTK is the most pathetic, over used, and over abused punishment in the history of FPS gaming, so that's pretty much out. Next time read the thread before you go "holier than thou" on a conversation you don't even understand. EDIT: @ Aijul, FF stands for friendly fire.
Regis Mark V 91	Posted - 2012.10.08 22:14:00 - [34] - Quote FF should always be on regardless of high, lo, or null. You want "tactical" game play then it needs to be on.
Regis Mark V 91	Posted - 2012.10.08 22:16:00 - [35] - Quote Bosse Ansgar wrote: Threvis Valan wrote: some of you need to reevaluates to go about your desire for a hardcore game. FF is basic and fundamental. teamkillers? VTK them. griefing? EVE is griefing. more importantly, it allows moles and traitors to go about the business of betrayal. the benefits of friendly fire FAR outweigh the negatives. choose your targets wisely and you'll never have a problem. this isnt EZ MODE. scared of FF? you should be embarassed. You are mistaking this for a hardcore game. Not one dev or GM has ever said this is supposed to be a hardcore FPS game. Moreover you come in here blab your opinion and don't even realize that the majority of this debate isn't whether to have FF or not, it's about the rules and penalties involved. The majority of us are fine with it as long as the punishments are correct. VTK is the most pathetic, over used, and over abused punishment in the history of FPS gaming, so that's pretty much out. Next time read the thread before you go "holier than thou" on a conversation you don't even understand. EDIT: @ Aijul, FF stands for friendly fire. Actually they said on more than one occasion it's supposed to be a hardcore shooter. But in reality it's not turning out that way.
Bosse Ansgar 47	Posted - 2012.10.08 22:18:00 - [36] - Quote When and where did they say this is supposed to be hardcore? All I've heard from the beginning is that this is supposed to be an accessible FPS MMO that anyone can play. That is not the definition of hardcore to my recollection.
The Robot Devil BetaMax. 15	Posted - 2012.10.08 22:18:00 - [37] - Quote A bounty system and security status. The lower your security status the lower sec only and a bounty system where extra ISK and WP for killing bounty, no matter what team or squad.
Bosse Ansgar 47	Posted - 2012.10.08 22:22:00 - [38] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: A bounty system and security status. The lower your security status the lower sec only and a bounty system where extra ISK and WP for killing bounty, no matter what team or squad. What sense does a bounty system make in Dust? You kill a guy, he comes right back. Killing him accomplishes nothing, so why would anyone want to put up a bounty for it? I can see in game bounty rewards forming for high K/D ratio enemies, but I don't think your version of it makes much sense.
Regis Mark V 91	Posted - 2012.10.08 22:34:00 - [39] - Quote Bosse Ansgar wrote: When and where did they say this is supposed to be hardcore? All I've heard from the beginning is that this is supposed to be an accessible FPS MMO that anyone can play. That is not the definition of hardcore to my recollection. I'm not willing to go through all the stuff I saw to find them. When they said accessible they meant something accessible to the people who are interested in EVE but not it's gameplay.
Vrain Matari ZionTCD Legacy Rising 404	Posted - 2012.10.08 22:38:00 - [40] - Quote In reading all of these great ideas, I think maybe the teamkilling mechanic I was to see is this: Any merc must be able to kill any other merc in any situation. That's New Eden. FF-Team and FF-Squad kills on every merc's public record. Let the solution to team killers come from the community. Teamkilling drops your security status, and eventually pushes you out to losec, then nullsec. What you have to do to grind it back up i don't care, so long as it is a grind. VTK(Vote-To-Kick) systems are easy to abuse, don't like the idea of new players getting kicked from squads for whatever arbitrary reason. Maybe a 1 minute vote window for a certain amount of teamkilling, maybe modified by the player's teamkilling history. If the poor merc wasn't doing it intentionally you'd be doing them a favor kicking them before their security status dropped too low. The game could autosend a mail saying 'you were vote-kicked by your squadmates for TKing'. Mag is the best example I know of that has FF on, and TKing isn't really much of a problem there, even in pub matches. MAG does have a VTK system, tho, and i'm sure the TKers know it.

Bosse Ansgar 47	Posted - 2012.10.08 22:48:00 - [41] - Quote Regis Mark V wrote: Bosse Ansgar wrote: When and where did they say this is supposed to be hardcore? All I've heard from the beginning is that this is supposed to be an accessible FPS MMO that anyone can play. That is not the definition of hardcore to my recollection. I'm not willing to go through all the stuff I saw to find them. When they said accessible they meant something accessible to the people who are interested in EVE but not it's gameplay. I'll take you at your word then, I have no reason not to. My apologies for being incorrect in my statement. However I stand by my implicating that guy in being a douche about his opinion.
G Dubya Bush Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 5	Posted - 2012.10.08 22:58:00 - [42] - Quote I fail to see the issue some people have with "kicking" from a match. This isn't a pc game where the admin might decide to ban you on a whim. If you get kicked, you join another match. You're not going to get repeatedly kicked unless you keep team killing. I have never heard of any fps that runs on centralized servers banning people for being tools and team killing; indeed, I highly doubt that CCP would ever do such a thing based on its track record when it comes to dealing with griefing. New Eden is full of can flippers, isk doublers, high sec griefer corps, and suicide gankers. Having a little bit of freedom to deal with the griefers we all KNOW will turn up would be nice, especially since it seems to me like friendly fire solves more problems than it causes. There have been a lot of great suggestions here to help counter the downsides to friendly fire. I don't think it should be overly punitive SP-wise though. Just penalize an equal number of skill points for team deaths as are awarded for enemy kills. Instituting a security status, or something of the sort would be nice, but it would only be effective if those stuck in null because of their status were inconvenienced in someway. Perhaps a special 'low security level tax" or a tax break for people with high security status like with corp standing in EVE.
Threvis Valan Doomheim 40	Posted - 2012.10.08 23:47:00 - [43] - Quote Bosse Ansgar wrote: Threvis Valan wrote: some of you need to reevaluates to go about your desire for a hardcore game. FF is basic and fundamental. teamkillers? VTK them. griefing? EVE is griefing. more importantly, it allows moles and traitors to go about the business of betrayal. the benefits of friendly fire FAR outweigh the negatives. choose your targets wisely and you'll never have a problem. this isnt EZ MODE. scared of FF? you should be embarassed. You are mistaking this for a hardcore game. Not one dev or GM has ever said this is supposed to be a hardcore FPS game. Moreover you come in here blab your opinion and don't even realize that the majority of this debate isn't whether to have FF or not, it's about the rules and penalties involved. The majority of us are fine with it as long as the punishments are correct. VTK is the most pathetic, over used, and over abused punishment in the history of FPS gaming, so that's pretty much out. Next time read the thread before you go "holier than thou" on a conversation you don't even understand. EDIT: @ Aijul, FF stands for friendly fire. actually i read the thread just fine. reading your whining earlier its pretty obvious the big mean boys from SOCOM kicked u from games and it hurt your lil feelings or something. its happened to us all...guess what the rest of us did? we put our big boy pants on and GOT OVER IT. as you should...or hug someone, just please with the crying. that said, if there's an alternative to VTK (i actually think stopping a guys clone or turning him unfriendly is cool, stays true to the fiction and seems like just the thing CCP would do) i'm all for it. but make no mistake, FF is PRIORITY. If it comes down to it, it should take precedence over everything...yes, even if it means VTK. lastly, they've said COUNTLESS times that this is a hardcore title. its based in the New Eden galaxy...EVE is super HARDCORE and this is an offshoot of that...its not algebra or anything.
Second Cerberus Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 38	Posted - 2012.10.09 00:17:00 - [44] - Quote I think a % SP fine (including going negative with repeated occurrences) would be fine. I'm ok with auto-kick after a certain number of instances, however I agree with some that team kick is unnecessary. I would also advocate for an ISK fine equal or exceeding the value of your team mates fit. If I kill you, I should have to pay for you to respawn. I know with millions in EVE funds flooding DUST that ISK fines would be no big deal, but at least if someone took advantage of noobs they would get their funds back.
Ieukoplast Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 169	Posted - 2012.10.09 00:17:00 - [45] - Quote I am not sure I want FF in this game, there is just too many negative things that can come from enabling it, with very few positives. Perhaps it should be turned off in hisec, but enabled in null space.
Bosse Ansgar 47	Posted - 2012.10.09 01:19:00 - [46] - Quote Threvis Valan wrote: Bosse Ansgar wrote: Threvis Valan wrote: some of you need to reevaluates to go about your desire for a hardcore game. FF is basic and fundamental. teamkillers? VTK them. griefing? EVE is griefing. more importantly, it allows moles and traitors to go about the business of betrayal. the benefits of friendly fire FAR outweigh the negatives. choose your targets wisely and you'll never have a problem. this isnt EZ MODE. scared of FF? you should be embarassed. You are mistaking this for a hardcore game. Not one dev or GM has ever said this is supposed to be a hardcore FPS game. Moreover you come in here blab your opinion and don't even realize that the majority of this debate isn't whether to have FF or not, it's about the rules and penalties involved. The majority of us are fine with it as long as the punishments are correct. VTK is the most pathetic, over used, and over abused punishment in the history of FPS gaming, so that's pretty much out. Next time read the thread before you go "holier than thou" on a conversation you don't even understand. EDIT: @ Aijul, FF stands for friendly fire. actually i read the thread just fine. reading your whining earlier its pretty obvious the big mean boys from SOCOM kicked u from games and it hurt your lil feelings or something. its happened to us all...guess what the rest of us did? we put our big boy pants on and GOT OVER IT. as you should...or hug someone, just please with the crying. that said, if there's an alternative to VTK (i actually think stopping a guys clone or turning him unfriendly is cool, stays true to the fiction and seems like just the thing CCP would do) i'm all for it. but make no mistake, FF is PRIORITY. If it comes down to it, it should take precedence over everything...yes, even if it means VTK. lastly, they've said COUNTLESS times that this is a hardcore title. its based in the New Eden galaxy...EVE is super HARDCORE and this is an offshoot of that...its not algebra or anything. Who's the one cryin'? You seem to be the one with the issue, demanding that there is no alternative to adding FF and kicks. "OMG, I can't kill my teammates! OMG I can't kick people because I don't want to play with them! That's so terrible, somebody fix it please!" I would be just fine with this game with or without team kills, I merely stipulate that if you add TK you dont add kicking players. Yeah, I played SOCOM. This isn't crying, I played for about 4 months and was an accepted player, but I finally got fed up and deleted that bullshit save file from my ps3. If your new, no almost one will let you into a game. I played several games where people were kicked at the end of a match because they were the only one left on their team on the field and the players who were already dead didn't want to wait for them because they didn't know who they were. I played games where my friends got kicked because they had a poor K/D ratio and their team didn't want them. I've seen people team killed because someone couldn't get enough votes to vote them out. I've seen players hunt down people who accidentally killed them in a previous match with a grenade when it was their own fault for trying to steal their kill. I've seen people team kill people who stole their kill! It's bullshit! Anyone who isn't already a part of their community is immediately shunned and teamed up on, we don't need a repeat of that here. We do not want that bullshit ******* up another game. As it is team kills are actually seeming less appropriate the more it's discussed.
G Dubya Bush Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 5	Posted - 2012.10.09 01:29:00 - [47] - Quote Ieukoplast wrote: I am not sure I want FF in this game, there is just too many negative things that can come from enabling it, with very few positives. Perhaps it should be turned off in hisec, but enabled in null space. After thinking about it for a while, the only major negative I see is loss of equipment to deaths from friendly fire and since there is real money involved I can see CCP being reluctant to go down that route. However, I think maybe making items lost to friendly fire be automatically part of your salvage at the end of the match, at least in hi-sec would be a good middle ground. Even in lower security systems, they could have a higher probability of being salvage at the end of a match.
The Infected One CrimeWave Syndicate 126	Posted - 2012.10.09 01:41:00 - [48] - Quote High sec: FF OFF for the new people, and ones who don't know how to aim Low sec: 50% FF damage so people can have their TK fun and also learn the consequences of firing a forge gun into the middle of a blob of blue dots in order to steal that red dot kill. Null sec: 100% FF damage for the players who want full realism and team play mentality, higher risk, higher reward.
Longshot Ravenwood Algintal Core Gallente Federation 680	Posted - 2012.10.09 01:55:00 - [49] - Quote FF + Mass Driver = Solo player because everyone else hates him.
8404-0000 GREEN Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 20	Posted - 2012.10.09 02:14:00 - [50] - Quote FF on for Corp battles? Those are the ones that count and I doubt you'll get TKers in there cause you will know everyone on your team...unless spies!



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