https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=346378#post346378

So this is in reference to the above thread, in which one person is insisting that Scouts are useless because of the strafing nerf. So I thought I'd ask the forum of they thought Scouts were useless.

Scouts weren't made for CQC, they were used for CQC simply because of poor hit detection added to insane strafing speeds. If the people crying they can't play their scouts the way they used to, it's because they were never meant to play that way in the first place.
Scouts were meant to be tactical, low sig profile plus high mobility allows for strategic flanking and/or mobile sniper tactics.

I just have a question to add to the thread.

What can scouts do that assault suits can't to the same or near same effectiveness?

I just have a question to add to the thread.

What can scouts do that assault suits can't to the same or near same effectiveness?

Yes, this is what people are missing. The scouts are now just slightly crappier versions of their equivalent assault suits. They are ever so slightly faster and get some tiny buffs to signature radius and pointless stuff life reload and draw speed, but have substantially less HP, CPU, and PG and also have less fitting slots. I'm not convinced that there is any situation in which a scout suit would be superior to an assault suit. The tradeoffs just don't add up. It doesn't matter if you're slightly faster if you die considerably sooner... that speed bonus doesn't make up for the drawbacks in a firefight. In any instance you can come up with, you're better off in the equivalent assault suit.

Scout suit is a pointless piece of gear now.

Not true. I have a Scout with a Shotgun and an Assault with a Shotgun...the Scout is magnitudes more efficient...the Assault is just too slow to close in. If you want to kill an AR with a Shotgun, you HAVE to flank. Run around some cover to get them from behind or the side, while they are distracted. You can't really do this with an Assault. And if the AR sees you while you're still not close, you're dead, regardless of what suit you wear.

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=346378#post346378

So this is in reference to the above thread, in which one person is insisting that Scouts are useless because of the strafing nerf. So I thought I'd ask the forum of they thought Scouts were useless.

How about some numbers. Assault suit sprint is 7m/s. Scout suit sprint? 7.8m/s. So, the assault suit has 90% of the speed that scout suits have. And then you look at CPU/PG and hit points. I guess it would be fair for the scout suits to have 90% of what the assaults do, right? Wrong. They have roughly 2/3 of PG/CPU and hit points.

I don't care about strafing. But the scout should be able to outrun an assault by more than 10%. Especially if scouts only have 2/3 of capacity and hit points.

Everyone said scouts were OP before, but a lot of us knew it was bad hit detection. Hit detection is fixed, and the real scout suit is revealed. It's paper thin and not that fast.

Don't mind that they're paper thin, but give them something to compensate. More CPU/PG, or much much faster sprinting speed. Assaults should only be able to sprint 60% or 70% of what the scouts can if we're going by the CPU/PG and hit points comparison.

As is, scouts = worthless.

Exactly. The really funny thing is, the assault suit has enough extra CPU/PG (as well as extra fitting spots) to actually make up for AND EVEN SURPASS the scout suit in sprint speed and STILL have more CPU/PG and higher HP.

Scouts weren't made for CQC, they were used for CQC simply because of poor hit detection added to insane strafing speeds. If the people crying they can't play their scouts the way they used to, it's because they were never meant to play that way in the first place.
Scouts were meant to be tactical, low sig profile plus high mobility allows for strategic flanking and/or mobile sniper tactics.

Scouts weren't made for CQC, they were used for CQC simply because of poor hit detection added to insane strafing speeds. If the people crying they can't play their scouts the way they used to, it's because they were never meant to play that way in the first place.
Scouts were meant to be tactical, low sig profile plus high mobility allows for strategic flanking and/or mobile sniper tactics.

I just have a question to add to the thread.

What can scouts do that assault suits can't to the same or near same effectiveness?

I say remove SMG, nove knifes and all CQC weapons if there is no suit that is made for close quarters..

saying it's not made for that is just dumb. They promoted a scout suit with SMG in the merc pack...

flanking works sometimes but if you can't speed tank or shield tank as the first one in the fight flanking, it's not a flank, it's prolonging death for a min or two more.

CCP stated that you can specialize in what you want. I don't put down people in heavies sniping.. why can't a scout suit be up in your face?

Why are people agreeing with this type of foolishness?

Suits are not made to fit one role, they are made to be versatile and for players to have options in how they want to play.

Now a whole play style has been nerfed/removed from the game. It was ridiculous to nerf the strafing, and to change the SMG.

The strafing was never a problem, only the hit detection and frame rate issues. Doing all things at once just made the Scout a useless suit.

Maybe if the Profile Dampeners did anything, or if any of the scanning skills or equipment mattered there would be something for the Scout, but right now it has lost everything.

Nothing, and that is the problem.

The Scout use to start recharging shield quickly, then they lost that.
The Scouts use to be able to dance and move quickly to avoid getting shot, but they lost that.

The Scout is supposed to be harder to detect, and it isn't.
The Scout is supposed to be able to detect people better, it isn't.

The Scout suit was ruined in this build because the decided to listen to the crowd that cried when shooting at a moving target.

There was NEVER a reason to reduce strafing, expect to appease those who can not shoot.

It can be up in your face, but wasn't designed to be. I can flank someone with a shotgun as a scout and nail them in the back of the head with it at close range, but I don't consider that CQC, but based on what you've said, I imagine you DO consider that CQC, which by all means makes the scout a CQC suit, it's just supposed to be a stealthy one. I can also do this with an SMG, as promoted with the merc pack.

And nova knives SHOULD be removed due to their uselessness this build.

As a long time AV/SMG scout, I'm starting to wonder this question myself.. scout suits really got nerfed hard.

Are you seriously saying strafing is a valid combat tactic? Physics doesn't support this, why don't you run at a full sprint sideways, then try to instantly go the same exact speed you were just going but in the opposite direction by turning on a dime?

You won't.

And there was never a reason to nerf the heavy, except to appease people who couldnt be bothered to attack outside of the heavies streghts,

there was never a reason to nerf the tank,except to appease people who wanted to kill them without being dedicated anti armour characters

At least the strafe nerf was based on a real issue with hit detection we still dont know if the game could be this solid running on last builds speed or even if maybe the scout was still > assult who know all we know this has happened the same as the others and id say this was more justified than the other nerfs

Nova Knives are cool idea with how it is now.. but useless till already right on someone.

Back to topic at hand.

I would consider shotguns close quarters for sure. cause that's where it's optimal is.
Scouts could be used for stealth but if an assault suit can fit a speed module to keep up with scouts and still have more CPU/PG to fit more damaging gun and it has more base HP (which it should) then the scout has obviously been broken.

I'll be looking into the assault with speed modules to see if they can be stealthier then scouts AND have more survivability.

And there was never a reason to nerf the heavy, except to appease people who couldnt be bothered to attack outside of the heavies streghts,

there was never a reason to nerf the tank,except to appease people who wanted to kill them without being dedicated anti armour characters

At least the strafe nerf was based on a real issue with hit detection we still dont know if the game could be this solid running on last builds speed or even if maybe the scout was still > assult who know all we know this has happened the same as the others and id say this was more justified than the other nerfs

Your SMG was nerfed too cause the basic skill for SMG's doesn't increase it's damage as it has in older builds.
Or at least I'm told.

Yes I am saying that, and nothing about physics is against me. Your example has nothing to do with the issue.

I am also saying there is no valid reason to disagree with me. Only vain foolish reasons.

Based on your answer, you didn't try to run and change direction at full sprint, and I'm telling you that you can't. My point has everything to do with the issue of strafing, which was quite impossible in the realm of physics.
No valid reason to disagree? You just lost my respect for this conversation, as no matter what you think, people ALWAYS have different opinions, and mine opposes yours, this is perfectly valid. Vain and foolish don't describe what I said, and was quite arbitrary, soooo...I don't really know what to say to that.

yes you can run at full speed and do so at a slight angle. i do it in real life and I know don't know why you keep mentioning physics to me. I am a physics major and can not see your point.

Its not as if anyone was ever sprinting sideways, they just had a little wiggle room so they could run in a zig zag pattern before.

I believe it is currently.

Speed tanking isn't there like before. Shield regen requires multiple Regulators to start our passive shield tanking..

And it's fairly difficult to get shield management to increase base Shield. Extenders are obvious fit on scouts.

But many of the things the scout had going has been taken from it.

stfu... those scouts are still impossible to hit! Feckin ballet dancing, bullet dodging, shotgun wielding basa's!!!

There wanst a reason to nerf the heavy. You are right. They never should have.

The tanks had a known issue where the mods were being stacked in a way they did not intend.

The hit detection and frame rate issues where a problem, but not the Strafing. Once the hit detection and frame rate was fixed there was no need for a strafing nerf.

Yes good point i forgot about the lack of stack penelty you have me there,

I just had a thought (the horrors) what will be the next big nerf so far its been heavy, breach, tank, scout whats next?? my guess is AR theres alot of saying its op when there is onlyrealy one thing wrong the lack of/non egxistant recoil should be fun to think about

Yes, the Scout suit is worthless.

its only, sole, main, primary purpose was taken away by the lowering of the strafe speed.

You can't circle-strafe around everything with a smg or shottie anymore. well, I mean you CAN, but it isn't as easy as it used to be.

that was the only thing it was designed for.

AR's hit more regularly now so they seem more powerful, and TAR ( tactical assault rifle ) is broken being automatic. So i could see them being nerfed a tiny bit, hopefully nowhere near as bad as all their nerfs so far...

So, if it's not supposed to be FASTER, what exactly WAS it designed for again?

Yes, the Scout suit is worthless.

its only, sole, main, primary purpose was taken away by the lowering of the strafe speed.

You can't circle-strafe around everything with a smg or shottie anymore. well, I mean you CAN, but it isn't as easy as it used to be.

that was the only thing it was designed for.

Aye thats has me thinking AR is a staple weapon and has to be up to par if it is made FUBAR then i have no idea how this game keep its gunplay alive, as weve seen CCP likes to fix all possible issues such as nerf to heavy and the HMG, nerf to tank and boost to AV, and now Strafe nerf + hit detection fix, the AR is being accused of being too accurate, to ranged,to little recoil, to much damage, to high rof and so if we get a traditional update AR is rightly screwed donno why this dawns on me in the middle of this discussioon

Back on topic Scout suit being usless or not sorry about that lads, as far as i can tell as it stands its strengs stands for nothing soid suggest having scan res and sig radious being more useful perhaps having them being the main method of contributing to TAC net and also getting rewarded for it, also mabye some varients like assasin and sniper roles for the scout suit which would have bonuses to help them in there bonus.

I do not believe that scouts going toe to toe with assults head on was ever working as intended despite ability to shoot

So, if it's not supposed to be FASTER, what exactly WAS it designed for again?

Scouts = Stealth...

They were nerfed because of the proliferation of hit detection abusers in the last build, rightly so.

They are now the invisible warriors they were always supposed to be, off the radar, deadly sabatours.

Beware.. players will soon get to grips with these demons...

Auto detonate RE's on roads, fast hack, profile dampners, sensor enhancments and what's that... oh! It's a Nova Knife sticking through your chest....

Sneaky stealthy buggers... mark my words, mark my .... ugh... what's that.....?

I ran with both a scout and an assault suit today, giving each one 50 suits til I dropped to zero. What I found is that the scout suits speed bonus over the assault can be completely disregarded, I raced a buddy of mine today. I was in scout, he was in assault and both of us were carrying assault rifles. By the time a ran out of stamina I was only a few meters ahead of him.

The only real advantages I found in the scout were I higher jump and slightly better turning speed( which does make a difference when it comes to sniping or using the shotgun in close quarters imo). Unfortunately I can't test the effectiveness of the dropsuit signature between the scout and the assault, but I assume it does make a difference when going around corners or being seen from a distance.

Overall in my opinion the scout suit doesn't have enough of an advantage over the assaults hp until we get more stealth mods in. I can preform all the scouts tasks when it comes to flanking, sniping, and cqc with the shotgun while I'm in an assault to the same effectiveness, and I even have a higher chance of survival when I'm detected.

Again though there is still more to come and we will have to see if the scouts match the other suits when cloaking comes out. I recommend other people to run an assault and treat it as a scout suit to see what there opinion on it is, maybe you will come up with something different than me. At has been stated by ccp that the scout will balance itself out with more maneuverability than other suits, but sadly I do not see it.

Playing with am Amarr Scout now.

I am seeing that I have enough speed to disengage a firefight. but not enough speed to stay in one. that of course, would be the Strafing speed nerf.

so if I go head up with someone, it is mostly flee or die, or at least flee to a better position to get the jump on him.

I've escaped near-certain death several times on this map by sprinting and knowing the terrain.

I feel dirty using the AR in my scout suit, but it's the far and away best weapon in the game at this point.

haven't had a good chance to try out the Nova Knives, haven't yet gotten close enough to someone.

Actually, I have noticed that scouts have a considerable bonus to lowering sniper scope sway, although this only helps in
mid-range to close quarters and still doesn't make much of a difference at long range imo.

Scouts were never intended to be for frontline head-to-head combat. Fast strafing made them too good at that. They're still perfectly good at their intended role.

Also circle-strafing is silly and has no place in this game.

they are completely useless. CCP is nerfing anything in this game that gives FPS gamers an advantage, because their precious EVE players cant hang with us. what game on earth would nerf strafe speed and make it different than forward/backward movement? they are making it easier to kill, just like with the aim assist. I ran a scout suit for 3 builds, and did keep a low profile and use it the way it was intended. It's worthless in this build. since they added all the modules and skills to help make yourself more invisible, you can run assault and get the same effect, and be able to take more than 3 shots and live.

I heard that Scout suit will be specialized with cloaking capabilities in later builds.

Ya they are. I am hoping for some improvement with any bonuses they will have to stealth mods an electronic warfare, but not to good of an improvement, always want to avoid the gaze of the nerf hammer overlord.

The scout is sold as a cqc spec. with smg and shotgun in merc pack advertisement.

And the heavy had a swarm launcher... People still realized it was stupid to play that way. I have been rocking a heavy suit and I can still strafe effectively against people who can't aim, so to me it just sounds like a broken game mechanic was just fixed and the scout suit wearers are up in arms like some of the tank drivers.

I don't care about cqc, personally. I just don't understand how a scout who is supposed to be fast and agile can barely outrun an assault at 100m.

And the heavy had a swarm launcher... People still realized it was stupid to play that way. I have been rocking a heavy suit and I can still strafe effectively against people who can't aim, so to me it just sounds like a broken game mechanic was just fixed and the scout suit wearers are up in arms like some of the tank drivers.

The eve analogy earlier of scout is 'stealth bomber not battlecruiser', I think it will be more scout is frigate.
stealth bomber= scout sneaks behind enemy lines to put proximity mines were hav goes to repair, so it blows as it runs from av.
covert ops= spec ops scout with stealth and hack bonus
assault frigate= breech scout with combat bonus
electronic attack ship=scout set up with ewar modules.

The scout is sold as a cqc spec. with smg and shotgun in merc pack advertisement. The cqc is one of several possible roles, requiring stealth and/or speed.

Strafe speed reduction made only stealth viable, and scout has only 10% lower signature then assault. Circle strafe is a very common mechanic in EvE, although it is called close orbiting to raise transversal, so they didn't nerf strafe to make eve player's happy.

The speed on scout is unchanged since at least e3, the strafe speed was just lowered on all suits. Hit detection was messed up last few builds, if hit detection is fixed precursor strafe speed would be fine.

Circling a heavy with scout faster then they could turn was intended, scouts dancing in hmg fire not being hit wasn't intended.

Uhh... what? Hit detection abusers were abusing hit detection. When that was fixed, had the scout been left alone, they wouldn't have been able to abuse it any more. Instead, CCP nerfed the scout suit and fixed hit detection (which is good, btw, I'm glad they did), which ended up making the scout pointless.

Not to mention they have yet to give the scout the tools the suit needs to actually fill, what I think, is the actual role of the scout: stealth and recon. Lower sig profile is nice (and hard to quantify, because I haven't noticed a difference with my assault suit), but it's not exactly recon or sabotage friendly.

I don't care about strafing. But the people on here talking about how the scout suit is faster- it's less than 10% faster than the assault. And yet it has 2/3 of the CPU, PG, and hit points. That's math, people.

And the other "bonuses" of a scout suit have been nerfed, as another poster pointed out (copied and modified):

The Scout use to start recharging shield quickly, then they lost that.
The Scouts use to be able to sprint much faster than all other suits, and they lost that (see 10% above)
The Scout is supposed to be harder to detect, and it isn't.
The Scout is supposed to be able to detect people better, it isn't.

I have yet to see a reasonable and convincing argument as to how the scout suit, as currently constructed, is not worthless.

If they add cloaking, then the suit might be valuable. Until then, it's a waste of money.