DUST Search - My take on tanks in general, under powered or not

Tyas Borg wrote:

Baal Roo wrote:

Spent an entire match emptying proto swarms down the gullet of tanks on plateau earlier, never got either of them below 25% shields.

Getting your whole squad in the same place at the same time, and all with an AV loadout, to unload on a tank when a tank is faster than a sprinting scout is damn near impossible. OTOH, pushing right on the D-pad, choosing HAV, and then driving in circles OHKing anything that moves with 3 guns and 6000+ HP isn't exactly the epitome of skilled gameplay/teamwork.

You sir are a liar and have no clue. I kill tanks with the most basic of swarms and dropships, irrelevant of fit they go down in 2 volleys. You do know they have to lock on?, right?.

As for all these claims that tanks can't now farm SP/ISK. I've been running and gunning since the patch and actually making more a game than going 20-30/0 in a tank pre patch. 150K-250k in a tank without dying 200-300k for infantry and it's easier and I can do it with full militia gear.

Your all pretty much commenting on something you don't have the slightest idea about. All you know is before the patch you couldn't kill tanks with crap AV easily and now their soloable with milita gear. The risk versus reward was crap before and now it's just not even worth risking. In it's current state all vehicles should be a third of their price if you can 2 shot them with free AV.

All I see on these boards are people who don't understand the concept of risk vs reward. Your all too used to playing CoD and BF and think because it's a single guy in a tank that you alone should be able to take it out.

In every other FPS there's no such system, yet you all whine like it has to be "Balanced". If CCP keep listening to this crap instead of making Eve in FPS form then this game's gonna go downhill fast as there's far better FPS's out there. The meta game here is what set's it apart from other games and yet your all campaigning to strip it out.

A good comparision to Eve in both risk and rewards is imagine 3 frigates taking out a battlecruiser. The 3 frigates don't cost anywhere near the same cost combined, yet they could take it out with teamwork. The frigates have very little to lose due to the low cost of their ships and the cruiser has a lot to lose. If the frigates work alone then their dead pretty quick, but if they work together sure they may lose one, but they'd maybe get the kill.

The analogy here is that the frigates risked something, but risked very little. Where as the cruiser is put at risk, but he's invested enough to maybe take them on.

As it stands in dust now 1 guy with free gear can take down a Sagaris which costs 2mill isk. Militia gear requires nothing to earn it, a Sagaris costs millions of SP. The system is broken now but none of you see that.

To clarify this I can play a few games on foot and be able to buy proto equiment for my infantry. I have to play 20-30 games to get a tank that will get one shotted.

Keep praising this change though, I'm sure your all happy that it's become an infantry players wet dream.

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Sha Kharn Clone Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 1087	Posted - 2012.09.15 11:01:00 - [31] - Quote I still think they are OP
Catfish Joe Krullefor Organization Minmatar Republic 13	Posted - 2012.09.15 11:19:00 - [32] - Quote Sha Kharn Clone wrote: I still think they are OP lol i couldn't agree more i've always thought they were to a certain degree OP and because they have gotten a slight nerf and the Swarmers and Forge Guns got buffs some players that are straight up tank players with no run and gun game are quitting the game altogether because of it or are refusing to play again(boycotting)lol until its fixed thats how obsessed some have become with them . either way at least CCP is doing something right and is balancing the game in the proper right way at least imo they are anyways .
Tyas Borg Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 112	Posted - 2012.09.15 11:56:00 - [33] - Quote Baal Roo wrote: Spent an entire match emptying proto swarms down the gullet of tanks on plateau earlier, never got either of them below 25% shields. Getting your whole squad in the same place at the same time, and all with an AV loadout, to unload on a tank when a tank is faster than a sprinting scout is damn near impossible. OTOH, pushing right on the D-pad, choosing HAV, and then driving in circles OHKing anything that moves with 3 guns and 6000+ HP isn't exactly the epitome of skilled gameplay/teamwork. You sir are a liar and have no clue. I kill tanks with the most basic of swarms and dropships, irrelevant of fit they go down in 2 volleys. You do know they have to lock on?, right?. As for all these claims that tanks can't now farm SP/ISK. I've been running and gunning since the patch and actually making more a game than going 20-30/0 in a tank pre patch. 150K-250k in a tank without dying 200-300k for infantry and it's easier and I can do it with full militia gear. Your all pretty much commenting on something you don't have the slightest idea about. All you know is before the patch you couldn't kill tanks with crap AV easily and now their soloable with milita gear. The risk versus reward was crap before and now it's just not even worth risking. In it's current state all vehicles should be a third of their price if you can 2 shot them with free AV. All I see on these boards are people who don't understand the concept of risk vs reward. Your all too used to playing CoD and BF and think because it's a single guy in a tank that you alone should be able to take it out. In every other FPS there's no such system, yet you all whine like it has to be "Balanced". If CCP keep listening to this crap instead of making Eve in FPS form then this game's gonna go downhill fast as there's far better FPS's out there. The meta game here is what set's it apart from other games and yet your all campaigning to strip it out. A good comparision to Eve in both risk and rewards is imagine 3 frigates taking out a battlecruiser. The 3 frigates don't cost anywhere near the same cost combined, yet they could take it out with teamwork. The frigates have very little to lose due to the low cost of their ships and the cruiser has a lot to lose. If the frigates work alone then their dead pretty quick, but if they work together sure they may lose one, but they'd maybe get the kill. The analogy here is that the frigates risked something, but risked very little. Where as the cruiser is put at risk, but he's invested enough to maybe take them on. As it stands in dust now 1 guy with free gear can take down a Sagaris which costs 2mill isk. Militia gear requires nothing to earn it, a Sagaris costs millions of SP. The system is broken now but none of you see that. To clarify this I can play a few games on foot and be able to buy proto equiment for my infantry. I have to play 20-30 games to get a tank that will get one shotted. Keep praising this change though, I'm sure your all happy that it's become an infantry players wet dream.
xAckie Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising 125	Posted - 2012.09.15 12:01:00 - [34] - Quote Tyas Borg wrote: Baal Roo wrote: Spent an entire match emptying proto swarms down the gullet of tanks on plateau earlier, never got either of them below 25% shields. Getting your whole squad in the same place at the same time, and all with an AV loadout, to unload on a tank when a tank is faster than a sprinting scout is damn near impossible. OTOH, pushing right on the D-pad, choosing HAV, and then driving in circles OHKing anything that moves with 3 guns and 6000+ HP isn't exactly the epitome of skilled gameplay/teamwork. You sir are a liar and have no clue. I kill tanks with the most basic of swarms and dropships, irrelevant of fit they go down in 2 volleys. You do know they have to lock on?, right?. As for all these claims that tanks can't now farm SP/ISK. I've been running and gunning since the patch and actually making more a game than going 20-30/0 in a tank pre patch. 150K-250k in a tank without dying 200-300k for infantry and it's easier and I can do it with full militia gear. Your all pretty much commenting on something you don't have the slightest idea about. All you know is before the patch you couldn't kill tanks with crap AV easily and now their soloable with milita gear. The risk versus reward was crap before and now it's just not even worth risking. In it's current state all vehicles should be a third of their price if you can 2 shot them with free AV. All I see on these boards are people who don't understand the concept of risk vs reward. Your all too used to playing CoD and BF and think because it's a single guy in a tank that you alone should be able to take it out. In every other FPS there's no such system, yet you all whine like it has to be "Balanced". If CCP keep listening to this crap instead of making Eve in FPS form then this game's gonna go downhill fast as there's far better FPS's out there. The meta game here is what set's it apart from other games and yet your all campaigning to strip it out. A good comparision to Eve in both risk and rewards is imagine 3 frigates taking out a battlecruiser. The 3 frigates don't cost anywhere near the same cost combined, yet they could take it out with teamwork. The frigates have very little to lose due to the low cost of their ships and the cruiser has a lot to lose. If the frigates work alone then their dead pretty quick, but if they work together sure they may lose one, but they'd maybe get the kill. The analogy here is that the frigates risked something, but risked very little. Where as the cruiser is put at risk, but he's invested enough to maybe take them on. As it stands in dust now 1 guy with free gear can take down a Sagaris which costs 2mill isk. Militia gear requires nothing to earn it, a Sagaris costs millions of SP. The system is broken now but none of you see that. To clarify this I can play a few games on foot and be able to buy proto equiment for my infantry. I have to play 20-30 games to get a tank that will get one shotted. Keep praising this change though, I'm sure your all happy that it's become an infantry players wet dream. it isnt a good comaprison as we are not comparing vehicles v vehicles we are comparing vehicles v infantry where a balance in an FPS is needed. And the meta game isnt affected by having a good FPS. Far from it. the more people that play the bigger the meta game. As for risk adn rewards: infantry die a lot in the game. So the use isk up too. Why do you seem to assume infantry are running around in free stuff?
Tyas Borg Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 112	Posted - 2012.09.15 12:04:00 - [35] - Quote My comparison there is I can earn more money for free with little effort in milita gear as a foot zerger. I can earn nearly the same in a tank, but have to pay 2-3mill for it and it's paper thin. What would you choose? Plus I keep bringing milita swarms up because they're a FREE counter that is too affective against something I've had to grind to earn SP for and pay millions for. Can you honestly not see the issue here? EDIT : The comparison stands as it's the closest thing we have in Dust. There's no infantry in Eve if you haven't noticed, so the lower ships are basically the equivalent of grunts.
Kyy Seiska Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 188	Posted - 2012.09.15 12:22:00 - [36] - Quote What some EVE players fail to realize that this is an MMOFPS with rpg elements not an MMORPG with fps elements. It's ridiculous if you just think that you are somehow entitled to be some sort of a Demigod just because you have played the game longer. Another thing EVE players fail to realize that this isn't EVE. Sure it shares many of the things that make EVE great but some things from MMORPG Spaceship commander simulator just don't work in online multiplayer FPS games. If something seems too powerful it quickly becomes only thing that is actually worth using. Professional clan-matches would turn in to 16vs16 Tank battles. Prototype level fitting for infantry can costs around 200-400k and dying more than 4 times in a match is fairly common when against good players or well even militia tanks. You could even get your **** blasted on the wall by lucky shot from militia-shotgun, forge-gun, swarm-launcher or grenade. in Dust 514 even the low quality weapons are still weapons, they might not be as effective or accurate as their higher quality counterparts but they still hurt and should continue to do so. This isn't game where lvl 100 players go around killing newbies without any risk just because they think its funny. And there's still simply no reason why something that doesn't require multiple players to operate, should need multiple players to destroy.
Jexct Doc Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 14	Posted - 2012.09.15 12:57:00 - [37] - Quote Good tanks are still good tanks. These threads are lol.
Demonic Chaos Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 14	Posted - 2012.09.15 13:08:00 - [38] - Quote I use swarms alot and I think they were buffed too much I think 5-10% would have been more reasonable or just give millia an extra swarm missile advanced 1 or 2 and proto 2 or 3 even 1 extra missle each would have been fine even if did a slight damage reduction
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.09.15 15:16:00 - [39] - Quote Demonic Chaos wrote: I use swarms alot and I think they were buffed too much I think 5-10% would have been more reasonable or just give millia an extra swarm missile advanced 1 or 2 and proto 2 or 3 even 1 extra missle each would have been fine even if did a slight damage reduction i think the tank nerf combined with the swarm buff was overkill to tanks CCP should have fixed one part and see how that works out. swarms are way to powerful right now and are realy hurting the tank balance
Burger Helper 84	Posted - 2012.09.15 21:53:00 - [40] - Quote KripnawtiQ Prime wrote: Players have been making it sound like they were nerfed to a point that you can't kill with them. yeah, because they're tank drivers and not being invincible = useless. apparently. a tank right now with like two snipers as support picking off infantry AV is still unstoppable, the key is that the tank NEEDS infantry support

Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 811	Posted - 2012.09.15 23:07:00 - [41] - Quote Tyas Borg wrote: Baal Roo wrote: Spent an entire match emptying proto swarms down the gullet of tanks on plateau earlier, never got either of them below 25% shields. Getting your whole squad in the same place at the same time, and all with an AV loadout, to unload on a tank when a tank is faster than a sprinting scout is damn near impossible. OTOH, pushing right on the D-pad, choosing HAV, and then driving in circles OHKing anything that moves with 3 guns and 6000+ HP isn't exactly the epitome of skilled gameplay/teamwork. You sir are a liar and have no clue. I kill tanks with the most basic of swarms and dropships, irrelevant of fit they go down in 2 volleys. You do know they have to lock on?, right?. Don't give me that. I've been playing for months, and have spent ample time in tanks as well as chasing them with my proto swarms. Anyone that understands the math here and has any experience in the game can plainly see that you are full of it. If you're blowing up tanks in 2 volleys, they are crap tanks and fitted poorly. If some guy wants to sit in a tank with no shield or armor modules and not fire his guns, SURE, you'll take him down in a couple of shots, but you don't base game balance on the play of the worst players you come across. Anyone with a good tank fitting and an even halfway decent head on their shoulders WILL NOT be soloable in a tank by a guy with a militia swarm launcher. That is absolute and utter BS and you know it. Honestly, it's such an absolutely ridiculous statement, I'm having a hard time taking anything else you say seriously. Quote: As for all these claims that tanks can't now farm SP/ISK. I've been running and gunning since the patch and actually making more a game than going 20-30/0 in a tank pre patch. 150K-250k in a tank without dying 200-300k for infantry and it's easier and I can do it with full militia gear. Your all pretty much commenting on something you don't have the slightest idea about. All you know is before the patch you couldn't kill tanks with crap AV easily and now their soloable with milita gear. The risk versus reward was crap before and now it's just not even worth risking. In it's current state all vehicles should be a third of their price if you can 2 shot them with free AV. Utter nonsense. Quote: All I see on these boards are people who don't understand the concept of risk vs reward. Your all too used to playing CoD and BF and think because it's a single guy in a tank that you alone should be able to take it out. In every other FPS there's no such system, yet you all whine like it has to be "Balanced". If CCP keep listening to this crap instead of making Eve in FPS form then this game's gonna go downhill fast as there's far better FPS's out there. The meta game here is what set's it apart from other games and yet your all campaigning to strip it out. You seem to lack a basic understanding of how game balance in an FPS works. If ONE thing is good at everything, EVERYONE will use that ONE thing. It's simple really. If you want ALL TANKS ALL THE TIME, then you've got the right idea. (ran out of quotes) "A good comparision to Eve in both risk and rewards is imagine 3 frigates taking out a battlecruiser. The 3 frigates don't cost anywhere near the same cost combined, yet they could take it out with teamwork. The frigates have very little to lose due to the low cost of their ships and the cruiser has a lot to lose. If the frigates work alone then their dead pretty quick, but if they work together sure they may lose one, but they'd maybe get the kill. The analogy here is that the frigates risked something, but risked very little. Where as the cruiser is put at risk, but he's invested enough to maybe take them on." The problem here is that you are specifically asking for the opposite of this. You are asking for the battlecruisers to be impervious to the frigates (which was how the best tanks were set up previously). With the current cost of tanks, there was nearly ZERO risk for fielding a top end fitting. I've spent some time playing with guys spec'd into high end tanks, and they would simply call in their God Mode Tank, and we'd roll around going 80-0 as a squad match after match after match. They would laugh and laugh as volley after volley of SL and FG shots came in and they just drove off, spider tanked each other, and drove back in to get another 5-10 free kills. They were unstoppable death machines if driven with any level of competency whatsoever. If we could laugh and screw around and consistently go 80-0 as a squad without even trying, SOMETHING IS WRONG. That's NOT FUN for anyone but the guys in the Iwinmobile, plain and simple. "As it stands in dust now 1 guy with free gear can take down a Sagaris which costs 2mill isk. Militia gear requires nothing to earn it, a Sagaris costs millions of SP. The system is broken now but none of you see that." Again, this is absolute nonsense. Unless no one is in that Sagaris, or the driver is a brain dead buffoon, no one in militia gear is going to land 10 shots on the thing before he manages to either land ONE shot on the person in the militia outfit OR simply drive around a corner. I mean, give me a break with this nonsense. You're CLEARLY a tank driver who wants his I WIN button back. Why else would you be fabricating all this nonsense? "To clarify this I can play a few games on foot and be able to buy proto equiment for my infantry. I have to play 20-30 games to get a tank that will get one shotted." Then you are absolutely awful at fitting tanks. Quote: Keep praising this change though, I'm sure your all happy that it's become an infantry players wet dream. Compared to a tank driver's wet dream? Yeah, we will be.
Dewie Cheecham Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 677	Posted - 2012.09.15 23:31:00 - [42] - Quote Avenger 245 wrote: thatGÇÖs why I agree with the nerf it was need and tank drivers just need to adapt to a more team based style. the above is just to make it clear on what needs tweaking and how the tanks need to adapt. Because AV teams failed so miserably at it, CCP apparently think the people with brains (tankers) will be better at adapting. While that is a valid expectation on CCP's side, it sucks at the moment, as we'll be forced to adapt without the modules that would allow us to do so.
Burger Helper 84	Posted - 2012.09.16 04:26:00 - [43] - Quote Dewie Cheecham wrote: Because AV teams failed so miserably at it, CCP apparently think the people with brains (tankers) will be better at adapting. While that is a valid expectation on CCP's side, it sucks at the moment, as we'll be forced to adapt without the modules that would allow us to do so. you don't need modules to adapt, numbnuts, you need to adapt your TACTICS. like, say, not running directly into an enemy infantry group and expecting to escape unscathed.
Sparten 269 Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 89	Posted - 2012.09.16 05:00:00 - [44] - Quote Debacle Nano wrote: If I can solo a tank, there's something wrong. If I can solo a sagaris, there's something wrong.
Jotun Hiem 24	Posted - 2012.09.16 05:05:00 - [45] - Quote Debacle Nano wrote: If I can solo a tank, there's something wrong. Real life would disagree with you.
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.09.16 05:05:00 - [46] - Quote Burger Helper wrote: Dewie Cheecham wrote: Because AV teams failed so miserably at it, CCP apparently think the people with brains (tankers) will be better at adapting. While that is a valid expectation on CCP's side, it sucks at the moment, as we'll be forced to adapt without the modules that would allow us to do so. you don't need modules to adapt, numbnuts, you need to adapt your TACTICS. like, say, not running directly into an enemy infantry group and expecting to escape unscathed. i agree with burger, its the tactices not the modules that need to adapt.
Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 811	Posted - 2012.09.16 05:10:00 - [47] - Quote Sparten 269 wrote: Debacle Nano wrote: If I can solo a tank, there's something wrong. If I can solo a sagaris, there's something wrong. Yes, it's called "user error".
Sparten 269 Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 89	Posted - 2012.09.16 05:11:00 - [48] - Quote Jotun Hiem wrote: Debacle Nano wrote: If I can solo a tank, there's something wrong. Real life would disagree with you. (Instert metal gear quote here)
Avenger 245 Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 477	Posted - 2012.09.16 05:21:00 - [49] - Quote Baal Roo wrote: Sparten 269 wrote: Debacle Nano wrote: If I can solo a tank, there's something wrong. If I can solo a sagaris, there's something wrong. Yes, it's called "user error". my issue with it is milita swarms soloing a tank, user error or not a tank should not be soloable by a milita swarm.
Whispercrow Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 102	Posted - 2012.09.16 05:48:00 - [50] - Quote The turret rotation nerf wasn't much of a nerf at all, since we can just turn the boat to compensate. The nerf to HP, damage reduction, splash radius, splash damage, direct damage, and buff to AV weapons is kind of overdoing it. But yes, tactics still work. In most cases, on the non-flat non-wide-open maps, you can use fast shield tanked tanks with rockets or guns to roll up and murder stray people or plink away at a distance. On those super-flat maps, the Railgun tanks still work well as oversized snipers. The issue is that the more clever tankers realize they can't stay in a combat for as long beofre the enemy has a solution. That's cool and all, since it makes them less of a threat and less infantry guys will QQ about how it's broken. As for you Dropship pilots... I pity you guys, I really do. Gone are the days where a well played dropship can harass an entire team. Now you guys are flying paper airplanes around, since the damage reduction nerf and swarm buffs make you easy meat. I'd probably feel more sympathy if I was any good at flying, but I'm terribad at it so... not so much. Good luck to you.

Baal Roo Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 811	Posted - 2012.09.16 08:29:00 - [51] - Quote Avenger 245 wrote: Baal Roo wrote: Sparten 269 wrote: Debacle Nano wrote: If I can solo a tank, there's something wrong. If I can solo a sagaris, there's something wrong. Yes, it's called "user error". my issue with it is milita swarms soloing a tank, user error or not a tank should not be soloable by a milita swarm. I absolutely disagree. If I can stand around firing enough militia swarms into your tank to kill it, then you are an awful tank user and deserve to lose it. Anything that does damage can kill a tank if you fire at it long enough. The real question is if a good AV player can solo an equally skilled tank driver, and we all know that's just not the case. If you're being soloed by militia gear, there's obviously a pretty huge skill disparity there because you've got a HUGE advantage.
Gcember Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 123	Posted - 2012.09.16 08:34:00 - [52] - Quote Debacle Nano wrote: If I can solo a tank, there's something wrong. Agreed! But one thing that IS good with the tank nerf is that the tank does not go rambo and you cannot destroy it before it destroys you. The tank fights alongside with the infantry now and not on its own.
Burger Helper 84	Posted - 2012.09.16 08:46:00 - [53] - Quote Avenger 245 wrote: my issue with it is milita swarms soloing a tank, user error or not a tank should not be soloable by a milita swarm. everyone keeps saying this. this has never happened or if it has happened, the tank driver must have been COMPLETELY braindead. like, just sitting there as one guy unloaded on him for a solid minute.


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