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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Mic McCoy
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
19
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Posted - 2012.08.08 01:58:00 -
[31] - Quote
I love this idea. I'm not a tank driver currently and do not plan to be in the future. I do think this would add an amazing depth to how tanks are played. I think the issue of having a separate commander in the tank can be set aside knowing that there will be a field commander who has an overview of the battle. Given the investment in a tank the commander will always give attention to the vehicles. It doesn't mean they should have to call primaries so to speak, but they can advise on group movements relative to a particular tanks movements. This would mean, however, that the overview for the commander would have to clearly show at least who is driving each vehicle so they can accurately relay commands.
I also think having the full crew of the tank split the costs of said vehicle is a prudent idea to implement alongside this. A ten to twenty second time window before the tanks destruction would ensure that no one can try to bail out to avoid the isk penalty. At the end of the match the isk would simply be deducted from the match earnings of the crew and given to the owner to compensate. Another option would be to split the cost between the whole team. This would encourage the whole team to protect its valuable assets and further increase the need for teamwork.
Again, I'm all for this idea! +1 |
Kira Lannister
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
712
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Posted - 2012.08.08 01:59:00 -
[32] - Quote
No. What about when your main cannon gunner decides to get bored and jump out? Your stuck driving a over-sized taxi. |
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CCP Frame
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
351
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Posted - 2012.08.08 02:05:00 -
[33] - Quote
Moved to feedback/requests section. |
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Encharrion
L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising
104
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Posted - 2012.08.08 02:21:00 -
[34] - Quote
I don't particularly like that idea, but how about an extra seat that can operate extra equipment like shield boosters or ewar. Furthermore, the driver should CHOOSE to hand over the main gun controls to the 4th person. |
Zero Harpuia
Maverick Conflict Solutions
422
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Posted - 2012.08.08 02:42:00 -
[35] - Quote
In a purely comparative fashion, it makes sense. No other vehicle gets to be a gunner and a driver, why should tanks?
On a more technical note, freeing up the controls so that the driver can run the modules quickly as well as, yaknow, DRIVE, makes sense.
Even if your gunner is 'some scrubby' he'll have WAY better accuracy than you because he doesn't also have to drive, just point and shoot.
Lastly, as someone brought up before, it allows two separate Pilot dropsuits to be utilized, empowering the tank and the gun separately.
As a sidenote, be honest with yourselves people, unless you have an EVE sugardaddy or are taking them from the corp hanger, exactly how many tanks do you think you can afford to own for private use anyway? Go look at the original trailer, there was a tank and its price there. 1,400,000 ISK. The tank was a Gunnlogi. Imagine how much a Sagaris or Marauder will be. Now that you've finished chucking your dinner, TANKS are a TEAM thing, because of COST and ATTENTION. (them bold words are the important ones) A lone merc won't be rolling a Proto tank because he has to rely on his team to kill AV troops (in a random match, that isn't happening), it will kill his reserves (it only takes one good forge gun to make you go from Trump to chump), and everyone will focus on him (which a random team won't consciously take advantage of).
Will people be running tanks alone in the next build? No. Not because of this, but because it will take over eight games to buy and fit one Proto tank. Wanna run around on your own with a big gun? Let me introduce the Forge Gun. |
Sandair Mulholy
Codex Troopers
42
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Posted - 2012.08.08 03:02:00 -
[36] - Quote
Lurchasaurus wrote: no amount of grouping can make me comfortable with putting my millions into the hands of someone else....the main gun is obviously the primary weapon for the tank and only the driver has a 1:1 input on the controls. A secondary gunner for the large turret would be very inefficient as he would never be perfectly able to track targets due to unexpected driving changes. Simply communicating driving over comms would just be terrible since that is for tactics, not saying "turning left!" and people dont typically try as hard when its not their money on the line.
This is an easy one to rectify: When the controls are not touched, the turrets stay pointing in the same direction all the time, independent of the tank direction (they still bobble up and down with the tank). It is like that in some games (I just can't remember which ones now) and it works pretty well.
As for the ISK, unlike EVE, you get ISK reward at the end of a match, and it is already dependent on how much you spent (kind off). A tank driver that sacrificed his tank would just get more to compensate than a gunner with only his dropsuit lost. The idea of Dust is that the more you put in a match, the more you get back out. With a little balancing that could work.
I have no solution for the SP put toward the tank; I guess it would have to be fun and challenging (by adding other tasks to the driver, like I mentioned). And maybe get more skill points (as it is now) from a match if you drive a tank.
In still feel bad for proposing this because I love the tanks as they are, and like most my first reastion would be: NO WAY. But I have been thinking about it for a while, I look at the bigger goal and I ask myself if I would still train, buy, fit and drive tanks if I could just "drive" them. And I keep coming up with a "most probably yes". With a Lock alarm, smoke bombs (or equivalent), target painter, maybe a small fixed gun in the front and other stuff like that, my answer becomes a definite yes.
And many more things can be done: . Make it an active job to keep the tank defences up to their max, like manual shield boosters and repairers . Manual decisions on where to send power: to engine for speed, to main gun for maximum vehicle and installations damage, to small guns for maximum close quarter infantry damage, to shield for maximum regeneration, ...
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Fivetimes Infinity
Immobile Infantry
1086
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Posted - 2012.08.08 03:07:00 -
[37] - Quote
Noc Tempre wrote:I could see an OPTIONAL copilot setup where you can hand off control of the main gun, but this would be an awful default, or worse mandatory, setup.
Yeah, having it as an option would be fine I think. Having it as mandatory would be a tremendous mistake, especially if that were carried over to every vehicle, where spending the SP and ISK on an expensive piece of hardware meant your reward was to be a taxi driver for other people who're having a good time while you're watching. |
Sandair Mulholy
Codex Troopers
42
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Posted - 2012.08.08 03:28:00 -
[38] - Quote
Fivetimes Infinity wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:I could see an OPTIONAL copilot setup where you can hand off control of the main gun, but this would be an awful default, or worse mandatory, setup. Yeah, having it as an option would be fine I think. Having it as mandatory would be a tremendous mistake, especially if that were carried over to every vehicle, where spending the SP and ISK on an expensive piece of hardware meant your reward was to be a taxi driver for other people who're having a good time while you're watching.
I thought that was sarcastic, but reading your previous post, I think it might not be. So let me just say that all other vehicles in Dust are already like that: you are driving only, no shooting. |
Sandair Mulholy
Codex Troopers
42
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Posted - 2012.08.08 03:39:00 -
[39] - Quote
Just Bad wrote: What if they could reduce the effectiveness of the large turrets against infantry - if you're going to lone wolf it in a tank you still get the joy of driving around shooting stuff with a big gun but the gamut of targets available to you is limited and you're comparatively easy pickings for infantry without a crew gunning for you.
That would just reduce the effectiveness of tanks. Tanks are supposed to be force multipliers. So a well manned tank (3 people now) means that you have 3 less pairs of boots on the ground, so that tank better be worth more than three guys in dropsuits. And as they stand, I think they are. Reduce the effectiveness and it might not be worth to put them in combat. That is why I prefer to remove the one man army tank option (even if it pains me) instead of nerfing the tank in any way. |
testguy242
44
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Posted - 2012.08.08 04:25:00 -
[40] - Quote
I support this idea.
As someone that drives/flies vehicles, I think it'd be more fun to have one role and really have to work together. There should also be a vehicle-chat system--I think Red Orchestra has this. It'd be easier to drive really well also without having to worry about the main gun. |
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Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
1216
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Posted - 2012.08.08 04:32:00 -
[41] - Quote
Sandair Mulholy wrote:Even though I am a tank driver and have the most fun with tanks, I think two changes are necessary for the long term viability of the game: 1. The driver should drive only and not control the main gun 2. Since the driver cannot shoot anymore, you are free to implement a decent driving scheme with the controller. Like the old school tank driving with the two sticks, or the standard forward/reverse + direction controls.
To compensate a bit, the driver should have the ability to control who can enter the main gun controls (at the very least. Probably also every position in the tank, but that is another discussion). So if he really wants to do it all, he can restrict the main gun for himself only, and switch position when necessary. Or restrict to his squad mates, corp mates, whatever.
These two changes would balance and equalize all driving where you drive, but cannot shoot at the same time. It would also eliminate the one man army feel of guys in well fitted tanks.
To compensate, the driver could do a lot more. You could zoom, control the shields boosters/armor repairer, remote boosters/repairers and any other coming modules (sensor boosters, cloaking device, target painters, smoke bombs, chaff, etc). There could also be lock detection so a driver can decide to throw chaff, smoke bombs, or EVE style ECM.
Now that the driver can concentrate on the driving, it could become worth it to add modules to improve speed, acceleration and maneuverability. He could control overload for either the main engine (going faster for a bit), or the main gun.
And a small concession could be a small gun fitted in the front of the tank that cannot be moved and shoots only straight ahead. Made a thread about this myself. Once we have basic Corp structuring, or at least a party system, I would heartily support this. |
Eirik DenRoue
22
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Posted - 2012.08.08 04:48:00 -
[42] - Quote
I think the tank driver only driving is a great idea!
I also think restriction of passengers is a great idea!
+1 to both.
This really drives team work and excellence. Which is the driving force for Dust 514.
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Mako LandSharkX
Goggles Inc.
48
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Posted - 2012.08.08 09:35:00 -
[43] - Quote
I support this idea. So long as drivers start getting more piloting points (like for squad spawning, more kill assist points, etc) rather then weak gunner assists.
For those complaining that it's "their isk investment-they should be manning the guns too" must not have driven an LAV or a Dropship-I dont think tanks should be any different in this regard.
tanks vs dropships should be based on squad makeup and map terrain/layouts. I'd hope with a change like this Tanks will mainly be used in squads with logistic support reppers and for specific terrains/maps that make tanks more survivable, maneuverable, and/or devastating then similar dropship squads...and not so much as one player's uber suit. |
Arramakaian Eka
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
363
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Posted - 2012.08.08 10:49:00 -
[44] - Quote
Does anyone who supports this idea actually drive tanks most of the time, or even often? If you take away gun control from the driver, you need to create something compelling for the driver to do. As a long-time Battlefield tank ***** (20 tank hours in BF3 alone, over 20% of my gametime), I don't see much else out there.
I drive tanks to melt faces. If I wanted just to drive around, I'd get in a jeep.
Maybe controlling ECM or other defensive measures would bring something to the driver's role, but I doubt it would be enough to make driving a tank fun.
To put a finer point: DUST has tanks, and tanks need drivers. If driving a tank is not a compelling, fun experience, nobody will drive tanks. Some might like that outcome, but DUST is supposed to be a battlefield FPS - and for that we need tanks. |
Jonquill Caronite
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
115
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Posted - 2012.08.08 10:57:00 -
[45] - Quote
I can't in good consciousness approve this idea until I KNOW I can control who's in my tank, and team grouping is available... Then maybe... As it stands I have enough trouble keeping retards without mics out of my vehicle, because whenever I get out to repair my crippled tank INEVITABLY my brain dead turret gunner switches seats and takes my 10% armor vehicle right back into the battle to get blown up... I seriously wish I was underestimating the situation but I figured I was doing pretty well on money so I'd have faith in my fellow gamers common sense and capabilities and trust them not to be total morons, and EVERY time I did this with a player who didn't have a Mic I was time and time again disappointed by their remarkable lack of intelligence...
If this is what I have to work with as a tank driver, then I NEED to be able to lone wolf it because team work with people fresh from the special olympics category or the support group 'gamers with downs' is completely impossible.
Small caveat, when fighters and gunships come out other vehicles will have pilot manned guns, its just not available yet because the other two vehicles are clearly not designed to be pilot operated gunships... |
Arramakaian Eka
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
363
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Posted - 2012.08.08 11:06:00 -
[46] - Quote
Jonquill Caronite wrote:As it stands I have enough trouble keeping retards without mics out of my vehicle, because whenever I get out to repair my crippled tank INEVITABLY my brain dead turret gunner switches seats and takes my 10% armor vehicle right back into the battle to get blown up...
That's a rather bad faux pas, and will get better when we get more FPS players.
Gunner is supposed to stay inside the tank at all times, protecting whoever is repairing. Driver is the driver unless she allows others to take over. Unfortunately it happens occasionally in games with randoms even in hardcore FPSs.
One way to stop that would be a password/PIN to enter driver's seat for anyone other than the original driver/owner of the tank. Possibly this would reset to zero or allow teammates if the original driver/owner dies, or goes too far away from the tank. |
Just Bad
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
34
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Posted - 2012.08.08 11:28:00 -
[47] - Quote
@ Sandair - I'm not sure if it would just reduce the effectiveness of a crewed tank by a significant amount - a one man tank yes without doubt, that's the price you'd pay for lone wolfing it. I think essentially it'd be similar to your proposal if there was only one person in it but with the driver & large turret operator switching to one of the small turrets to put down infantry as opposed to switching between the driver only and any gunner position to do the same. I'd like to think a fully crewed HAV would still be a fearsome thing to face off against as infantry.
From what I understand your proposal would have the large and one small turret being fully effective (since they're manned) I'm curious what your plans are about the other small turret - does it get removed (and how does that impact the tanks effectiveness?), shared operation by the driver (and how is that going to work effectively?) or are your thinking 4 man tanks?
Comparing these two proposals they both nerf tanks in some capacity one way or another. Crewed or otherwise.
Although I appreciate that you're wanting to help the game be more about team work and bring coherency to all vehicles in that the owner is the driver and not more I'm still not sold on the idea. Sorry. |
Grit Breather
BetaMax.
660
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 11:40:00 -
[48] - Quote
May I suggest a change of thought direction on this matter? The discussion right now is all about the driver's options in a tank he owns and how keeping him as just a driver will make the owner unhappy. But what if the owner wasn't the driver but the commander? Work with me on this...
Think of a real life situation. Say you have a really cool vehicle with a gazillion gadgets and capabilities. These all require you to not be driving as that takes too much distraction. If you'd own such a vehicle you'd get a good driver but stay with your gadgets (or large turret + vehicle command in our example).
So let's change the way we think of tanks. The tank owner should be the tank commander and not the driver. That makes a lot more sense to me and pretty much solves all these disputes.
What do you think? |
Arramakaian Eka
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
363
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 12:52:00 -
[49] - Quote
Grit Breather wrote:May I suggest a change of thought direction on this matter? The discussion right now is all about the driver's options in a tank he owns and how keeping him as just a driver will make the owner unhappy. But what if the owner wasn't the driver but the commander? Work with me on this...
Think of a real life situation. Say you have a really cool vehicle with a gazillion gadgets and capabilities. These all require you to not be driving as that takes too much distraction. If you'd own such a vehicle you'd get a good driver but stay with your gadgets (or large turret + vehicle command in our example).
So let's change the way we think of tanks. The tank owner should be the tank commander and not the driver. That makes a lot more sense to me and pretty much solves all these disputes.
What do you think?
For better or worse, every FPS I've played which has tanks has the driver controlling the main gun. Changing that notion is of course possible, but whether it's doable is questionable given the reasons I listed in a previous comment. |
Grit Breather
BetaMax.
660
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 12:59:00 -
[50] - Quote
Arramakaian Eka wrote:Grit Breather wrote:May I suggest a change of thought direction on this matter? The discussion right now is all about the driver's options in a tank he owns and how keeping him as just a driver will make the owner unhappy. But what if the owner wasn't the driver but the commander? Work with me on this...
Think of a real life situation. Say you have a really cool vehicle with a gazillion gadgets and capabilities. These all require you to not be driving as that takes too much distraction. If you'd own such a vehicle you'd get a good driver but stay with your gadgets (or large turret + vehicle command in our example).
So let's change the way we think of tanks. The tank owner should be the tank commander and not the driver. That makes a lot more sense to me and pretty much solves all these disputes.
What do you think? For better or worse, every FPS I've played which has tanks has the driver controlling the main gun. Changing that notion is of course possible, but whether it's doable is questionable given the reasons I listed in a previous comment. Dust is changing many things in the FPS world. Dust, for starters, is bringing a hell of a lot teamwork than anyone is used to. It's bringing game support for defined command structures.
So why not also change some fundementals? Tank drivers don't shoot. They drive and they're damn good at driving. |
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Arramakaian Eka
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
363
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Posted - 2012.08.08 13:46:00 -
[51] - Quote
Grit Breather wrote:Dust is changing many things in the FPS world. Dust, for starters, is bringing a hell of a lot teamwork than anyone is used to. It's bringing game support for defined command structures.
So why not also change some fundementals? Tank drivers don't shoot. They drive and they're damn good at driving.
Not new. MAG had a command structure, and support for true teamwork much better than DUST currently has, and communication which didn't even require a headset to be useful when playing with randoms. Even Battlefield 2 had these to a certain extent - which was dumbed down in BF3 to compete with CoD, but that's another topic - and so did Natural Selection.
I'm all for changing the genre - it surely needs it - and mixing things up, but you need to offer more than just driving to a tank driver, otherwise very few people will do it. |
Sandair Mulholy
Codex Troopers
42
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Posted - 2012.08.08 13:57:00 -
[52] - Quote
@Grit Breather, It could definitely be an idea to have the driver != owner, but I don't think introducing a commander (i.e.: not driving and not gunning) would work. You would be hard pressed to find drivers then and be completely vulnerable while you get one. Drivers would have to be non-tank owners (mostly I guess), yet drive enough to be good! Not an easy combination. Of course the owner would not need to be the commander, but the job of the driver would still need to be more fun that just driving, but could not really be because the fun operations are done by the commander.
To clarify, my proposition is to separate the driver and main gunner positions, it doesn't mean that the owner needs to be the driver (even if that is what I hinted at). The owner could decide to be the main gunner. Hopefully the owner should always have the option to decide where he wants to play in his tank, or even not play in his tank and leave the place for a better crew!
I originally was thinking of a 4 man tank to reduce the rework to be done. But if we ignore the amount of work necessary, it could remain a 3 man tank, but the small gunner would need full 360deg view then, and it would be nice if the driver had his fixed gun in the front.
Other options to compensate for the loss of main gun control by the driver: - If there is no main gunner, the driver could be firing the main gun (instead or in conjunction with his fixed gun), but the main gun would always be pointing in the front, so no aiming reticule, no left-right control and no up-down control either. Enough to be able to attack large targets at ground level, or defend himself (a bit) against another tank and not be completely helpless. - Have the low level tanks be driver-gunners, but the high level tank separate the driver and gunner. So for newbies and fresh players, they could get in tanks and have fun, but for the serious stomping power, you would need more collaboration.
Fundamentally, I think the ability of fitting a CRU in a tank points to the willingness of CCP to go in that direction. |
Arramakaian Eka
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
363
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Posted - 2012.08.08 15:20:00 -
[53] - Quote
Sandair Mulholy wrote:- Have the low level tanks be driver-gunners, but the high level tank separate the driver and gunner. So for newbies and fresh players, they could get in tanks and have fun, but for the serious stomping power, you would need more collaboration.
Not a bad idea at all. Keep the main gun with the driver on the lighter Assault/C&C/ECM/etc tanks, but separate it for Main Battle Tanks. That way those drivers who insist on shooting (me) would still be able to melt faces, but we'd also get heavy MBT which would be a formidable weapons platform.
There would still need to be more to do for the driver than just driving, though, and that's my main concern. |
Darkz azurr
Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire
105
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Posted - 2012.08.08 18:15:00 -
[54] - Quote
dunno how your idea would work out in highsec op with people that dont really group up, and people with no coms etc |
SILENTSAM 69
Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION
421
|
Posted - 2012.08.08 19:27:00 -
[55] - Quote
I just want to say i love that CCP made a vehicle control method that makes sense.
I always hated how in HALO each stick only used half its range of motion. Now all the same controls and range of motion is done equally well with one stick using all its range allowing you to have your other stick for controlling a gun or just the direction you are looking.
Controlling vehicles in DUST 514 is just easy and intuitive and makes sense. |
Ender Storm
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
50
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Posted - 2012.08.08 19:28:00 -
[56] - Quote
OP, suported.
Your idea makes sense and would make vehicles more meaningful and sometghing that demands organization, and not something that everyone spams across the field. |
Ender Storm
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
50
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Posted - 2012.08.08 19:30:00 -
[57] - Quote
Darkz azurr wrote:dunno how your idea would work out in highsec op with people that dont really group up, and people with no coms etc
Thats an incorrect assumption, high-sec have just as many organized corporations, at least in EVE side of things.
Even if not, too bad for the vehicle owner, but with little time i am sure people will form bonds with other players and at least group with 1 or 2 guys. |
Alshadow
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
71
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Posted - 2012.08.08 22:20:00 -
[58] - Quote
i like this idea alot but i have to say this is one of the reasons that adding a grouping system needs to be the top priority thing right now because without it adding this would kinda suck |
Alshadow
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
71
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Posted - 2012.08.08 22:25:00 -
[59] - Quote
Arramakaian Eka wrote:Sandair Mulholy wrote:- Have the low level tanks be driver-gunners, but the high level tank separate the driver and gunner. So for newbies and fresh players, they could get in tanks and have fun, but for the serious stomping power, you would need more collaboration. Not a bad idea at all. Keep the main gun with the driver on the lighter Assault/C&C/ECM/etc tanks, but separate it for Main Battle Tanks. That way those drivers who insist on shooting (me) would still be able to melt faces, but we'd also get heavy MBT which would be a formidable weapons platform. There would still need to be more to do for the driver than just driving, though, and that's my main concern.
make all the current tanks have slightly less armor and shield and alittle less pg and cpu... then interduce a whole new kind of tank that would be even beter than the ones we have now but be much more expensive and have seperate diver/gunner, make the current ones LAVs and the new ones HAVs then make the jeeps like recon vehicles or (insert clever name here) |
Arramakaian Eka
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
363
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Posted - 2012.08.09 00:02:00 -
[60] - Quote
Alshadow wrote:Arramakaian Eka wrote:Sandair Mulholy wrote:- Have the low level tanks be driver-gunners, but the high level tank separate the driver and gunner. So for newbies and fresh players, they could get in tanks and have fun, but for the serious stomping power, you would need more collaboration. Not a bad idea at all. Keep the main gun with the driver on the lighter Assault/C&C/ECM/etc tanks, but separate it for Main Battle Tanks. That way those drivers who insist on shooting (me) would still be able to melt faces, but we'd also get heavy MBT which would be a formidable weapons platform. There would still need to be more to do for the driver than just driving, though, and that's my main concern. make all the current tanks have slightly less armor and shield and alittle less pg and cpu... then interduce a whole new kind of tank that would be even beter than the ones we have now but be much more expensive and have seperate diver/gunner, make the current ones LAVs and the new ones HAVs then make the jeeps like recon vehicles or (insert clever name here)
Just because you built it doesn't necessarily mean people will use it. My point all along has been that people play FPSs to shoot things. Making tank driver a gunless FPS player makes him... FP player. There needs to be something fun for the driver to do, and driving alone is not sufficient - and my imagination is not vivid enough to come up with ideas what that could be. I haven't seen anyone else have any ideas, either.
Again, any tank driver actually thinks this is a good idea, or is it just those who either play grunts or pilots? |
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