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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Sandair Mulholy
Codex Troopers
42
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Posted - 2012.08.07 18:48:00 -
[1] - Quote
Even though I am a tank driver and have the most fun with tanks, I think two changes are necessary for the long term viability of the game:
1. The driver should drive only and not control the main gun
2. Since the driver cannot shoot anymore, you are free to implement a decent driving scheme with the controller. Like the old school tank driving with the two sticks, or the standard forward/reverse + direction controls.
To compensate a bit, the driver should have the ability to control who can enter the main gun controls (at the very least. Probably also every position in the tank, but that is another discussion). So if he really wants to do it all, he can restrict the main gun for himself only, and switch position when necessary. Or restrict to his squad mates, corp mates, whatever.
These two changes would balance and equalize all driving where you drive, but cannot shoot at the same time. It would also eliminate the one man army feel of guys in well fitted tanks.
To compensate, the driver could do a lot more. You could zoom, control the shields boosters/armor repairer, remote boosters/repairers and any other coming modules (sensor boosters, cloaking device, target painters, smoke bombs, chaff, etc). There could also be lock detection so a driver can decide to throw chaff, smoke bombs, or EVE style ECM.
Now that the driver can concentrate on the driving, it could become worth it to add modules to improve speed, acceleration and maneuverability. He could control overload for either the main engine (going faster for a bit), or the main gun.
And a small concession could be a small gun fitted in the front of the tank that cannot be moved and shoots only straight ahead. |
Sandair Mulholy
Codex Troopers
42
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Posted - 2012.08.07 18:54:00 -
[2] - Quote
Indeed, I don't even like my idea :(
But I think it is necessary. |
Sandair Mulholy
Codex Troopers
42
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Posted - 2012.08.07 21:26:00 -
[3] - Quote
Crap, my long dissertation on why I think it is necessary for the long term survival of the game got lost somehow... I love this forum! 
Summary because I'm lazy: Tanks are currently sustainable for solo playing and they are the place to be. This is bad for the game, you want to encourage inter-dependency and social interactions. Everyone will become (at least) a tank driver for sure if nothing changes.
Nerfing them is not an option. Giving others advantages over tanks (e.g.: maps favoring infantry, big bag anti-tank gun, etc) will only reduce the usefulness of tanks. The only way I see to improve the game without making some part of it (tanks) suffer at the expense of others (dropsuits), is to remove the main gun control from the driver.
Oh, and currently tank driving sucks and can't be improved if you keep the shooting ability. So if you remove the shooting controls from the drivers, you can drastically improve the driving because now you have options (like the two stick method). |
Sandair Mulholy
Codex Troopers
42
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Posted - 2012.08.07 21:35:00 -
[4] - Quote
I agree with you Fivetimes, I was there in Planetside too. But Planetside did not have the Eve Online background to draw upon. Here I see the driving of vehicles more like in Eve, where you "manage" more than aim and shoot. And the driving could be made a lot more challenging by the design of the maps too.
I admit that the ISK and SP costs will have to be balanced with the rewards. That is why I was suggesting a lot more options for tanks (most of which are available in Eve). The driver could even be "tagging" enemies (like locking in Eve) and the gunner would get more points for getting these enemies quickly. Maybe even ammo selection (by the driver)?
I don't have all the solutions, but I think the driver needs to be separate.
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Sandair Mulholy
Codex Troopers
42
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Posted - 2012.08.08 03:02:00 -
[5] - Quote
Lurchasaurus wrote:
no amount of grouping can make me comfortable with putting my millions into the hands of someone else....the main gun is obviously the primary weapon for the tank and only the driver has a 1:1 input on the controls. A secondary gunner for the large turret would be very inefficient as he would never be perfectly able to track targets due to unexpected driving changes. Simply communicating driving over comms would just be terrible since that is for tactics, not saying "turning left!" and people dont typically try as hard when its not their money on the line.
This is an easy one to rectify: When the controls are not touched, the turrets stay pointing in the same direction all the time, independent of the tank direction (they still bobble up and down with the tank). It is like that in some games (I just can't remember which ones now) and it works pretty well.
As for the ISK, unlike EVE, you get ISK reward at the end of a match, and it is already dependent on how much you spent (kind off). A tank driver that sacrificed his tank would just get more to compensate than a gunner with only his dropsuit lost. The idea of Dust is that the more you put in a match, the more you get back out. With a little balancing that could work.
I have no solution for the SP put toward the tank; I guess it would have to be fun and challenging (by adding other tasks to the driver, like I mentioned). And maybe get more skill points (as it is now) from a match if you drive a tank.
In still feel bad for proposing this because I love the tanks as they are, and like most my first reastion would be: NO WAY. But I have been thinking about it for a while, I look at the bigger goal and I ask myself if I would still train, buy, fit and drive tanks if I could just "drive" them. And I keep coming up with a "most probably yes". With a Lock alarm, smoke bombs (or equivalent), target painter, maybe a small fixed gun in the front and other stuff like that, my answer becomes a definite yes.
And many more things can be done:
. Make it an active job to keep the tank defences up to their max, like manual shield boosters and repairers
. Manual decisions on where to send power: to engine for speed, to main gun for maximum vehicle and installations damage, to small guns for maximum close quarter infantry damage, to shield for maximum regeneration, ...
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Sandair Mulholy
Codex Troopers
42
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Posted - 2012.08.08 03:28:00 -
[6] - Quote
Fivetimes Infinity wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:I could see an OPTIONAL copilot setup where you can hand off control of the main gun, but this would be an awful default, or worse mandatory, setup. Yeah, having it as an option would be fine I think. Having it as mandatory would be a tremendous mistake, especially if that were carried over to every vehicle, where spending the SP and ISK on an expensive piece of hardware meant your reward was to be a taxi driver for other people who're having a good time while you're watching.
I thought that was sarcastic, but reading your previous post, I think it might not be. So let me just say that all other vehicles in Dust are already like that: you are driving only, no shooting. |
Sandair Mulholy
Codex Troopers
42
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Posted - 2012.08.08 03:39:00 -
[7] - Quote
Just Bad wrote:
What if they could reduce the effectiveness of the large turrets against infantry - if you're going to lone wolf it in a tank you still get the joy of driving around shooting stuff with a big gun but the gamut of targets available to you is limited and you're comparatively easy pickings for infantry without a crew gunning for you.
That would just reduce the effectiveness of tanks. Tanks are supposed to be force multipliers. So a well manned tank (3 people now) means that you have 3 less pairs of boots on the ground, so that tank better be worth more than three guys in dropsuits. And as they stand, I think they are. Reduce the effectiveness and it might not be worth to put them in combat. That is why I prefer to remove the one man army tank option (even if it pains me) instead of nerfing the tank in any way. |
Sandair Mulholy
Codex Troopers
42
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Posted - 2012.08.08 13:57:00 -
[8] - Quote
@Grit Breather,
It could definitely be an idea to have the driver != owner, but I don't think introducing a commander (i.e.: not driving and not gunning) would work. You would be hard pressed to find drivers then and be completely vulnerable while you get one. Drivers would have to be non-tank owners (mostly I guess), yet drive enough to be good! Not an easy combination. Of course the owner would not need to be the commander, but the job of the driver would still need to be more fun that just driving, but could not really be because the fun operations are done by the commander.
To clarify, my proposition is to separate the driver and main gunner positions, it doesn't mean that the owner needs to be the driver (even if that is what I hinted at). The owner could decide to be the main gunner. Hopefully the owner should always have the option to decide where he wants to play in his tank, or even not play in his tank and leave the place for a better crew!
I originally was thinking of a 4 man tank to reduce the rework to be done. But if we ignore the amount of work necessary, it could remain a 3 man tank, but the small gunner would need full 360deg view then, and it would be nice if the driver had his fixed gun in the front.
Other options to compensate for the loss of main gun control by the driver:
- If there is no main gunner, the driver could be firing the main gun (instead or in conjunction with his fixed gun), but the main gun would always be pointing in the front, so no aiming reticule, no left-right control and no up-down control either. Enough to be able to attack large targets at ground level, or defend himself (a bit) against another tank and not be completely helpless.
- Have the low level tanks be driver-gunners, but the high level tank separate the driver and gunner. So for newbies and fresh players, they could get in tanks and have fun, but for the serious stomping power, you would need more collaboration.
Fundamentally, I think the ability of fitting a CRU in a tank points to the willingness of CCP to go in that direction. |
Sandair Mulholy
Codex Troopers
42
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Posted - 2012.08.09 15:25:00 -
[9] - Quote
Arramakaian Eka wrote:
We're talking tanks here, not applying flawed logic. To rehash my points from previous posts: I have extensive tanking experience, and #1 reason I drive tanks is to kill people. Take that away from me and I'll go to my other favorite role in FPSs: anti-tank grunt. I bet that vast majority of tank drivers wouldn't drive tanks unless they can **** **** up. Tank driver expectations are different than other vehicles: tanks are designed to destroy and kill, not to move people or do logistics. And the lack of support for this idea from tank drivers is a testament to the feasibility of the OP's idea.
It's perfectly fine to challenge and change that expectation and I would embrace it like I have said before, but something compelling and fun has to take the place of gunplay; nobody has offered enough, yet. Driving around and dodging is not enough.
I am a tank gunner, and I drive tanks because I am good at it and it helps my team to win. I did not suggest this to make it more fun for me, I suggested it to improve the game, so I can enjoy it for a long time. It actually pains me to suggests this, but I think it is necessary so Dust will not become a tank game (nothing wrong with a tank game, but there is too much potential in Dust to be limited to tanks). I think that if this is not done, CCP will implement a maximum number of tanks per match (either active, or overall) to compensate, or worse, nerf the tanks, and that would be a shame. We pay for the tanks, so we should not be arbitrarily limited, and a tank is meant to be an awesome instrument of destruction, if not, it becomes an LAV!
Dust 514 is meant to be more involved (like Eve Online), and to attain this goal I think this change is necessary.
PS: I've been playing tanks for a long time  : BattleZone
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Sandair Mulholy
Codex Troopers
42
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Posted - 2012.09.21 13:47:00 -
[10] - Quote
I had to revive this thread. This build made the tanks useless. Exactly what I was afraid of. With the terrain that offers a lot of cover to infantry, AV grenades that are OP and nanohive that regenerate grenades, tanks, and vehicle in general, are useless. Add to that the ISK rewards that are low and the price of tanks that is high and you hardly see tanks in game anymore. It might also be due to lack of cooperation and ambush maps, but nobody can argue that vehicles underused right now. |
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