DUST Search - Tank drivers != Main Gun Control

Sandair Mulholy wrote:

Even though I am a tank driver and have the most fun with tanks, I think two changes are necessary for the long term viability of the game:
1. The driver should drive only and not control the main gun
2. Since the driver cannot shoot anymore, you are free to implement a decent driving scheme with the controller. Like the old school tank driving with the two sticks, or the standard forward/reverse + direction controls.

To compensate a bit, the driver should have the ability to control who can enter the main gun controls (at the very least. Probably also every position in the tank, but that is another discussion). So if he really wants to do it all, he can restrict the main gun for himself only, and switch position when necessary. Or restrict to his squad mates, corp mates, whatever.

These two changes would balance and equalize all driving where you drive, but cannot shoot at the same time. It would also eliminate the one man army feel of guys in well fitted tanks.

To compensate, the driver could do a lot more. You could zoom, control the shields boosters/armor repairer, remote boosters/repairers and any other coming modules (sensor boosters, cloaking device, target painters, smoke bombs, chaff, etc). There could also be lock detection so a driver can decide to throw chaff, smoke bombs, or EVE style ECM.

Now that the driver can concentrate on the driving, it could become worth it to add modules to improve speed, acceleration and maneuverability. He could control overload for either the main engine (going faster for a bit), or the main gun.

And a small concession could be a small gun fitted in the front of the tank that cannot be moved and shoots only straight ahead.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
Sandair Mulholy Codex Troopers 42	Posted - 2012.08.07 18:48:00 - [1] - Quote Even though I am a tank driver and have the most fun with tanks, I think two changes are necessary for the long term viability of the game: 1. The driver should drive only and not control the main gun 2. Since the driver cannot shoot anymore, you are free to implement a decent driving scheme with the controller. Like the old school tank driving with the two sticks, or the standard forward/reverse + direction controls. To compensate a bit, the driver should have the ability to control who can enter the main gun controls (at the very least. Probably also every position in the tank, but that is another discussion). So if he really wants to do it all, he can restrict the main gun for himself only, and switch position when necessary. Or restrict to his squad mates, corp mates, whatever. These two changes would balance and equalize all driving where you drive, but cannot shoot at the same time. It would also eliminate the one man army feel of guys in well fitted tanks. To compensate, the driver could do a lot more. You could zoom, control the shields boosters/armor repairer, remote boosters/repairers and any other coming modules (sensor boosters, cloaking device, target painters, smoke bombs, chaff, etc). There could also be lock detection so a driver can decide to throw chaff, smoke bombs, or EVE style ECM. Now that the driver can concentrate on the driving, it could become worth it to add modules to improve speed, acceleration and maneuverability. He could control overload for either the main engine (going faster for a bit), or the main gun. And a small concession could be a small gun fitted in the front of the tank that cannot be moved and shoots only straight ahead.
STB-stlcarlos989 EV Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 936	Posted - 2012.08.07 18:53:00 - [2] - Quote I'm sure EVERY tank driver will be against this idea, but it does make sense.
Sandair Mulholy Codex Troopers 42	Posted - 2012.08.07 18:54:00 - [3] - Quote Indeed, I don't even like my idea :( But I think it is necessary.
Khun-Al 135	Posted - 2012.08.07 19:12:00 - [4] - Quote Maybe the driver should controll the small turret in front.
STB-stlcarlos989 EV Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 936	Posted - 2012.08.07 19:53:00 - [5] - Quote This would be fair to implement when they add a grouping system, but I sense there would be strong opposition.
carl von oppenheimer Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 158	Posted - 2012.08.07 20:07:00 - [6] - Quote Vehicles should definitely be a separate mini game on their own this way those who like tanks could play the game with a more diverse role. In RL a tank is driven with 2 sticks where each controls a separate side of tracks, although you can turn the tank on penny even now, having separate controls would improve driving experience quite a bit. Also they should change the dead zones so that small guns cover both 180 to sides or keep the current but reduce the left side dead zone (keep it 180 but less right turn or add it to 270) and let the turret gun to turn full 360 degrees.
Kira Lannister Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 712	Posted - 2012.08.07 20:10:00 - [7] - Quote No. Bad Idea. You don't want your main cannon being in the hands of a scrubby who can't aim. You can't risk your tank worth over a million isk in the hands of someone else. Thinking about it. HORRIBLE IDEA!
STB-stlcarlos989 EV Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 936	Posted - 2012.08.07 20:11:00 - [8] - Quote Kira Lannister wrote: No. Bad Idea. You don't want your main cannon being in the hands of a scrubby who can't aim. You can't risk your tank worth over a million isk in the hands of someone else. Thinking about it. HORRIBLE IDEA! Won't be an issue with a grouping system or if tank drivers are allowed to kick out gunners.
Bunny dee Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 6	Posted - 2012.08.07 20:22:00 - [9] - Quote As a tank driver I hate the idea, but with a few exceptions I think its a good idea. The exceptions being the driver(owner) needs to be able to control who is in the tank and what positions they are in. Without that control this would be a horrible idea.
Just Bad Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 34	Posted - 2012.08.07 20:26:00 - [10] - Quote @ Sandair - Could you elaborate on why you think this change is necessary for the long term viability of the game?

carl von oppenheimer Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 158	Posted - 2012.08.07 20:32:00 - [11] - Quote Just Bad wrote: @ Sandair - Could you elaborate on why you think this change is necessary for the long term viability of the game? It would make driving a tank more of a team effort, though I wouldn't mind having a full team for tanks with tank commanders thrown in the mix and all. Problem is that it would make tank driving a perhaps too separate from the rest of the game play.
Just Bad Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 34	Posted - 2012.08.07 20:39:00 - [12] - Quote @ Carl - I was looking for the OPs opinion since he's the one that suggested it but you make a good argument. Now this may seem like a stupid question, but please bear with me, do you think tank crewing isn't enough of a cooperative endeavour at the moment and if yes to that then why do you think that is the case?
Skold Hagradsson Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 8	Posted - 2012.08.07 20:55:00 - [13] - Quote Owner = tank commander, with power to set up tank squad for his tank. Controls target acquisition,ewar, repair and secondary gun Driver = front gunner too, if the turret is fixed Gunner = main gun I had thought about this too, main problem is that it's only one guys isk sink, maybe if there was a way to spli the costs so there were no more "free rides" that would be the answer. So when you enter the tank you share the risk, for asset time (10 secs) when you leave. Driving and firing while moving is pretty impossible unless you are in a straight line with the turret. There is too much for the owner and no way to currently share that. As someone said, tanks can be a kind of mini game on their own then and grouped teams get their own renown. Also if pilots are to get their own suits, drivers may be able to get mods for speed or extra shield, gunners ROF or Damage, commanders, engineering/electronic buffs. The squad system is kind of there it just needs a tweak to get it working.
carl von oppenheimer Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 158	Posted - 2012.08.07 20:56:00 - [14] - Quote Well if we go with this route: Lets think about how tank is actually driven which is that only commander actually knows what is going on outside the tank, this alone would change things drastically when operating a tank. In RL tank driver and a commander are two different persons for obvious reasons but this is future so driver and commander could be same person. But main issue is communication and that you who calls in the vehicle don't really have any options on who is sitting in your tank this makes you a commander in name only. So lets assume that we would have tank crew as in RL that would mean that your gunners could only see what their gun sees, and your driver would only have a camera view to sides, front and back and the commander (owner?) would be the only one who can view the tank as 3D model (the way we have it now) to signify that he has the best vantage point of the surroundings. While the above would be neat I have doubts if that would really fly in an FPS shooter, hence we need a simpler version of the same where driver is the commander and everyone has a full view out side but you could not use the tank on well anything without extras which would automatically mean that you would need at least two for the crew. Granted tanks can't already do much without a crew of 3 already but this change would further enhance the fact. Well you could still use the tank alone for road kills even after the change.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2012.08.07 21:23:00 - [15] - Quote This is how tanks worked in Planetside 1, and even there where vehicles were free and it wasn't a big deal to get skills necessary to drive a tank, it was really lame to do. Imagine having many millions of skill points invested in a tank, and be spending hundreds of thousands of your own ISK on a vehicle, and yet your only payoff is being a taxi driver for other people to use all your personally bought items and skills you invested in. I guess it's okay if you're using the tank in a big important battle where it really matters, but it is amazingly lame to be a glorified taxi driver while strangers have fun shooting people on your dime. In short, I am 100% opposed to this idea. I've played it in Planetside 1 and I know how much it sucks. It will suck even worse when it's your ISK and your SP that you can't make use of yourself.
Sandair Mulholy Codex Troopers 42	Posted - 2012.08.07 21:26:00 - [16] - Quote Crap, my long dissertation on why I think it is necessary for the long term survival of the game got lost somehow... I love this forum! Summary because I'm lazy: Tanks are currently sustainable for solo playing and they are the place to be. This is bad for the game, you want to encourage inter-dependency and social interactions. Everyone will become (at least) a tank driver for sure if nothing changes. Nerfing them is not an option. Giving others advantages over tanks (e.g.: maps favoring infantry, big bag anti-tank gun, etc) will only reduce the usefulness of tanks. The only way I see to improve the game without making some part of it (tanks) suffer at the expense of others (dropsuits), is to remove the main gun control from the driver. Oh, and currently tank driving sucks and can't be improved if you keep the shooting ability. So if you remove the shooting controls from the drivers, you can drastically improve the driving because now you have options (like the two stick method).
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 583	Posted - 2012.08.07 21:31:00 - [17] - Quote I understand your logic, but I'd rather cope with the controls than hand over my main turret to someone else, grouping or not. There are many situations where I need to have complete control of the main turret and the tank at the same time to survive, and trying to communicate what I need done to the main turret controller is just going to make that even more difficult for me. -1 in my book, sorry.
Sandair Mulholy Codex Troopers 42	Posted - 2012.08.07 21:35:00 - [18] - Quote I agree with you Fivetimes, I was there in Planetside too. But Planetside did not have the Eve Online background to draw upon. Here I see the driving of vehicles more like in Eve, where you "manage" more than aim and shoot. And the driving could be made a lot more challenging by the design of the maps too. I admit that the ISK and SP costs will have to be balanced with the rewards. That is why I was suggesting a lot more options for tanks (most of which are available in Eve). The driver could even be "tagging" enemies (like locking in Eve) and the gunner would get more points for getting these enemies quickly. Maybe even ammo selection (by the driver)? I don't have all the solutions, but I think the driver needs to be separate.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2012.08.07 21:51:00 - [19] - Quote I could see an OPTIONAL copilot setup where you can hand off control of the main gun, but this would be an awful default, or worse mandatory, setup.
Mo Gallas Gentralde Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 178	Posted - 2012.08.07 22:16:00 - [20] - Quote So.. in summary, you want to make sure that the owner of a tank... cannot use the tank. Why would one invest Millions of Skill Points into Tank technology? Why would someone drop Millions of ISK into Tank parts? They wouldn't. They'd drive dropships. You want the tank to be a dropship.....?

Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2012.08.07 22:48:00 - [21] - Quote There has to be an improvement in gameplay to warrant such a change. Dropships are getting ewar to keep the pilot excited. Limiting a whole audience's enjoyment would not make the game better, even if you happen to believe that would be more "realistic".
Super Cargo Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 428	Posted - 2012.08.07 22:51:00 - [22] - Quote Sandair Mulholy wrote: Even though I am a tank driver and have the most fun with tanks, I think two changes are necessary for the long term viability of the game: 1. The driver should drive only and not control the main gun 2. Since the driver cannot shoot anymore, you are free to implement a decent driving scheme with the controller. Like the old school tank driving with the two sticks, or the standard forward/reverse + direction controls. To compensate a bit, the driver should have the ability to control who can enter the main gun controls (at the very least. Probably also every position in the tank, but that is another discussion). So if he really wants to do it all, he can restrict the main gun for himself only, and switch position when necessary. Or restrict to his squad mates, corp mates, whatever. These two changes would balance and equalize all driving where you drive, but cannot shoot at the same time. It would also eliminate the one man army feel of guys in well fitted tanks. To compensate, the driver could do a lot more. You could zoom, control the shields boosters/armor repairer, remote boosters/repairers and any other coming modules (sensor boosters, cloaking device, target painters, smoke bombs, chaff, etc). There could also be lock detection so a driver can decide to throw chaff, smoke bombs, or EVE style ECM. Now that the driver can concentrate on the driving, it could become worth it to add modules to improve speed, acceleration and maneuverability. He could control overload for either the main engine (going faster for a bit), or the main gun. And a small concession could be a small gun fitted in the front of the tank that cannot be moved and shoots only straight ahead. I can't think of a more boring idea. On the plus side, maybe less people will drive around in tanks. I hate tank drivers.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 583	Posted - 2012.08.07 23:16:00 - [23] - Quote Super Cargo wrote: I can't think of a more boring idea. On the plus side, maybe less people will drive around in tanks. I hate tank drivers. You do realize this sort of statement just encourages us to drive them even more?
Just Bad Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 34	Posted - 2012.08.07 23:22:00 - [24] - Quote @ Sandair - Thanks for elaborating on why you made the suggestion. I can see where you're coming from now. That said I still don't know if I agree with it. I'm sure there are ways they could change things without removing a large part of the enjoyment for someone who invests the ISK and SP in tanks while better reinforcing that cooperation amongst the crew is needed to be successful. If the problem boils down to one-man tanks being too effective at everything tanks do maybe they could narrow their abilities to compensate. What if they could reduce the effectiveness of the large turrets against infantry - if you're going to lone wolf it in a tank you still get the joy of driving around shooting stuff with a big gun but the gamut of targets available to you is limited and you're comparatively easy pickings for infantry without a crew gunning for you.
Kira Lannister Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 712	Posted - 2012.08.08 00:10:00 - [25] - Quote Just had to post again, this is a bad idea.
Lurchasaurus SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 808	Posted - 2012.08.08 00:44:00 - [26] - Quote STB-stlcarlos989 EV wrote: Kira Lannister wrote: No. Bad Idea. You don't want your main cannon being in the hands of a scrubby who can't aim. You can't risk your tank worth over a million isk in the hands of someone else. Thinking about it. HORRIBLE IDEA! Won't be an issue with a grouping system or if tank drivers are allowed to kick out gunners. no amount of grouping can make me comfortable with putting my millions into the hands of someone else....the main gun is obviously the primary weapon for the tank and only the driver has a 1:1 input on the controls. A secondary gunner for the large turret would be very inefficient as he would never be perfectly able to track targets due to unexpected driving changes. Simply communicating driving over comms would just be terrible since that is for tactics, not saying "turning left!" and people dont typically try as hard when its not their money on the line.
Flux Raeder WarRavens 83	Posted - 2012.08.08 01:00:00 - [27] - Quote This would only work if you could get the full 50 points and kill points from the kills made by your passengers. If you can allow only who you want into the tank then you can team up with a friend who's aim isn't crap and gain the full points to make it worth it instead of this "vehicle kill assist" 25 points. It does make some logical sense, as long as the driver is getting the tank to the kill-zone and keeping everyone alive he is participating, he HAS to participate, and as long as it is only the driver who gets full kill points from other kills there will be no freeloaders
Skold Hagradsson Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 8	Posted - 2012.08.08 01:02:00 - [28] - Quote The main objection (save for investment of sp) is the isk issue. That will only be an issue in factional warfare but if you can set up a tank squad or make sure those who get in agree to contribute then the isk risk is shared. In the corp/alliance matches your corpies will form the crew, so usual eve risks of spies aside, the tank will either be bought by corp or you share in the rewards when the contract completes. Isk risk is what eve has always been about. You solo pvp that risk is managed by you, in gang you share it with your logi pilot or that the rest of the gang turn up when your in the ****. For the factional warfare it might suck, but that could be managed, however it may add something to the corp battles when they arrive. The LAV already works similar to the suggestion and I still see people call them down to just drive.
Flux Raeder WarRavens 83	Posted - 2012.08.08 01:04:00 - [29] - Quote Also, give the tank driver more sensitive and in-depth controls to make it take more skill and attention to drive the tank, it's pretty bad right now with the laggy tank mechanics (rolling sideways into a wall) while trying to fire a weapon at a scout
Kira Lannister Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy 712	Posted - 2012.08.08 01:43:00 - [30] - Quote Not to mention when your tank starts break dancing in mid-air.



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