All you Dust Mercs out there will be wanting to read pages 65-74.

And this is all the proof you need to know that CCP isnt your typical developer, 9 players having a chat at ccp headquaters, getting asked on what they think about new features, altering the way ccp does business, changing features, and giving some thing for ccp to think about when developing new features.

Imagine dust 514 getting similar treatment.

I have to say, that is disappointing to me. Its like they are afriad to put DUST and EVE together. I mean, come on!

They aren't even goin to give us player corps until 2013 now, so thats giant garbage.

CCP needs to rethink this. Even if there is seleration between EVE and DUST, at least add player corps that can engage together in factional warfare or for prestige against other corps. Forget null sec for a second. Give us player corps, and let us go at esch other in high sec. Games that give players the tools to attack ofher organized groups, eveen if it isn't for territory in null sec, are fun, and attract a lasting community.

The ad hoc group system needs to come sooner than late 2012, and it needs to be able to field an entire team at once, not just a squad. This smells too much of BF3-style clans and groups, which were a pile of crap.

I think I need to write a long winded thread on this...

They're not afraid, they're just taking their time trying to make sure they're doing it right, which makes sense with a project of this magnitude.

fanboy excuse

It's not an excuse, it's an opinion. You want to call me a fanboy for showing this company some respect and having the patience for letting them to do their job, fine, whatever makes you feel good. Now go make a KDR thread or something.

I'm ok with them waiting to put them together.

But not letting dust players from up into dust clans/corp? WTF????????

That's terrible. They could let us join our own non eve corps. Then when they let us join eve corporations just have your dust corp join an eve alliance.

Exactly what crazy space said. I am fine with waiting for the other stuff, but the whole reason I came to DUST was for the social aspect. Just let players form corps, do clan deploys into battle, and schedule their own corp matches. I guarentee the time will go by much more quickly if they were to do that and let us go at each other.

Its not so much the other things that annoys me as the fact that they don't seem to even be looking at a clan deploying an entire team instead of 4 friends grouping up together and playing. The minimum they could do is give us group deploy with up to 12 players.

Right, interesting stuff.

Because of how console development works they are not able to update as often, though Sony has given them a lot of flexibility, the release process is still slower than the PC.

Two step: What about corporations? Right now in the beta you can't join one, is that stuff just not in the beta yet?

CCP LeKjart: It is not in the beta, and the whole corporations owning districts thing will be part of the nullsec update.
The CSM asked about joining player corps in the late 2012 release. CCP said that wasn't currently on the schedule. They don't want to stick something in that would break EVE, and are worried that EVE corps with role management and voting would be too much for DUST players. At the latest, players would be able to join player alliances or corps in 2013. CCP is also looking at including persistent squads, so people can play matches with an ad-hoc group.

Two step: So you are saying you don't need planetary control to take sov?

CCP Jian: Yeah, that is right. Sov is sov, planetary control is planetary control, but if you have both then we are looking at bonuses on that.

while im sad that the ceta may take into 2013 at the same time i am given hope because it shows to me just how seriously ccp is taking this project.

and just how determined they are to truly give us a completley unique fpsmmo experience.

i tip my hat to you gentlemen and will try to be a respectful non trolling beta forumite.

good luck and godspeed gentlemen

fanboy excuse

"CCP is looking at if they could have simple DUST corps, with chat channels. They understand the importance of corps, and are looking at a concept called "simple corps", with greatly streamlined management. Those might be part of a betarelease, or they might just have NPC/FW corps for people to join. At the latest, players would be able to join player alliances or corps in 2013. CCP is also looking at including persistent squads, so people can play matches with an ad-hoc group."

pg. 71

http://community.eveonline.com/council/transcripts/2012/CSM_CCP_Meetings_May_June_2012.pdf

Still think your previous FPS community were dedicated gamers? 165 pages.

A close corp friend did a lot of the writing on that one lol.

Mind you these minutes are a bit old, alot can change at ccp development in the past months.

(Also, I have my securities license and understand the mechanics of free-markets. Your forcing us into the video-game equivalent of sweat-shop labour on behalf of Faction Warfare.)

That's what l'm thinking too

[insert RP stuff] DUST soldiers were created to be pawns of the elite. Welcome to New Eden.

Anywho, I don't believe someone receiving contracts (DUSTers) should be making more than people giving them out (EVEers).

Me and my brother have a year old, two-man Eve corp that exists solely to fund our Dust514 war effort and add incentives to join our Corp. These announcements really disappoint me to be honest. Don't misunderstand, I love CCP and understand that Dust will never really be 'complete' in the way other games are BUT I HAVE ALREADY GAVE YOU A TON OF MONEY IN ANTICIPATION OF THIS.

Me and my brother have a year old, two-man Eve corp that exists solely to fund our Dust514 war effort and add incentives to join our Corp. These announcements really disappoint me to be honest. Don't misunderstand, I love CCP and understand that Dust will never really be 'complete' in the way other games are BUT I HAVE ALREADY GAVE YOU A TON OF MONEY IN ANTICIPATION OF THIS. The 'District Control' stuff not coming online until the kinks are worked out on SiSi makes total sense but not allowing me to consolidate my assets between the two platforms is lame.

This was the whole selling point for Dust, just to remind you. Lets not pretend like an additional tab under corp management is some monumental undertaking. The fluid exchange of isk and assets between Eve and Dust was the whole basis of the meta-game and don't give me that crap about Eve players having godlike wealth being detrimental to Dust. Postponing financial integration will create an issue here where there doesn't need to be one. Not allowing Dusters to impact on Sov assures a gigantic disparity in isk distribution, why pay premiums for Dusters if they have no impact on anything. Allowing Dusters to play at least some role on Sov issues assures Dusters of large boat loads of isk and will quickly equalize the financial disparity. Whereas forcing us to fight for npc payouts for two years will make us all so comparatively broke ass we will end up the pawns of the established Eve Corps.

The only way we are going to see premium payouts is going to be through player contracts. There isn't a mercenary Corp in Eve that will undock for less than a billion isk, many many many times what the best paying npc contracts pay. And that's the minimum. Not too mention that we can't even grind for easy money since we will more or less always be fighting other players with varying degrees of success. Even as things stand now in the beta it is possible to win your fight and lose money, forcing us to continue in this vein for another 2 years is preposterous.

(Also, I have my securities license and understand the mechanics of free-markets. Your forcing us into the video-game equivalent of sweat-shop labour on behalf of Faction Warfare.)

"CCP is looking at if they could have simple DUST corps, with chat channels. They understand the importance of corps, and are looking at a concept called "simple corps", with greatly streamlined management. Those might be part of a betarelease, or they might just have NPC/FW corps for people to join. At the latest, players would be able to join player alliances or corps in 2013. CCP is also looking at including persistent squads, so people can play matches with an ad-hoc group."

pg. 71

The CSM asked about joining player corps in the late 2012 release. CCP said that wasn't currently on the schedule. They don't want to stick something in that would break EVE, and are worried that EVE corps with role management and voting would be too much for DUST players.

pg. 71

[...]

CCP asked CSM for feedback on DUST corporations, and what the CSM's preferred vision for them would be. The options presented were:
1) Unified corps, where DUST and EVE corps are the same thing, including allowing DUST players to be CEOs of EVE corps.
2) A special DUST division of a regular EVE corporation, where the DUST players would have some autonomy from the parent corporation.
3) Entirely separate DUST and EVE corporations but allowing contracts/alignment between them or allow DUST corps to join EVE alliances.
The CSM and CCP discussed people's desire to easily manage DUST and EVE players in the future, especially moving ISK/AUR between the two if/when that is allowed. CCP has had people ask them about multiboxing DUST and EVE.
Kelduum was in favor of allowing both DUST corps and allowing DUST players into EVE corps, with much limited roles and whatnot. The entire CSM said that having some sort of corporation at launch of DUST was critical, even if it wasn't the eventual ideal structure.
Alekseyev: Don't punish DUST corps with the EVE corp UI.

pg. 72

Typical
CSM 7 is 0.0 alliance dominated.

0.0 alliances have a two sided face,
They brag like hell about how great they are, and on the other side the whine like little kids when something is threatening their 0.0 playstyle.

I hope we get our own CSM.

I think Dust will get it's own CSM.

0.0 alliances are kinda EVE's favorite though. They fight for sov, stir up drama, toy with the economy, amass tons of players.. basically keep things interesting. I'd love to see all these POS/starbase changes and I'm not even in an alliance.

I'm actually excited we'll be doing faction war first. I hope we can at least start Dust mini corps within faction though, to give unity outside faction, and be able to gather and use expensive resources.

Of course they're afraid, Nobody else has done it before!

No disrespect to you and your corp, but 2 accounts going for a year and even adding on that 2 merc packs might pay for a handful of dev hours after overhead. In their eyes, or any business owner's eyes, this is not a ton of money.

Some thoughts from 2 months or so ago are not the entirety of Dust's development cycle. If successful, Dust could be around for 5-10+ years.

Obviously, my sub isn't solely funding Dusts development cycle. I don't play monthly sub games because they are a sad waste of money with the exception of Eve which consistently rewards me for that monthly investment with tons of new content added regularly at no extra cost. Customer satisfaction is pretty important to any business owner, player engagement is pretty important to any video game company and CCP obviously understands that better than most companies in the gaming industry.

The point to that statement was that I spent lots of my money, so that I would be able to pay a collection of Dusters well to fight with me on behalf of my Corp. A Corp that I have worked to optimize on behalf of the Dust514 gameplay. I doubt very much that I am the only person who has invested time and money into the meta-game. So having the only feedback we have gotten thus far regarding how Dust will function at launch essentially deny any meta-game at all is a real disappointment. While I will wait to light up my torch and grab my pitchfork as well, you will have to pardon me for expressing my dismay at the news.

In New Eden, profit is King. As it stands it would make more sense for a Duster to grind npc drones with no significant financial loss than it would to pick up my Mass Driver and lob grenades at the Amarr Militia. One is pure profit, the other is at least occasional losses and consistently lower payouts because of asset loss. They will create a new care-bear scourge. Especially in light of the fact that they keep pointing out that payouts on matches will decrease and asset cost will increase.

I am seriously the only person that see's a problem here?

[quote=Unit-775]
I'm actually excited we'll be doing faction war first. I hope we can at least start Dust mini corps within faction though, to give unity outside faction, and be able to gather and use expensive resources.

I just had Warhammer 40k Space Marine chapters flash through my head. Different but similar super soldiers, universally fighting for one side, but still have squabbling between themselves

Just to be clear .. this isn't a 'I will rage-quit' thing.

Its a .. there is no meta-game if we can't employ Dusters through Eve Corps thing. I am heartened that the CSM argued for some degree of integration and disheartened that CCP wasn't even considering it for release. Ya'll should be as well. Even in FW it will stand to reason that their will be industrial benefits to holding Planets (they said as much in the minutes). A streamlined, Duster only Corp is not meta-game. The impact of Dusters on Sov can be field tested in FW given the recent Inferno changes. I want to assure my Corp-mates of good gear and a happy home, I want to assure my Faction (I have no issue with us beginning there) that my Corp is highly regarded by being able to pay my mates well for being awesome.

As a Duster (regardless of how elaborate or not Corp structure is) would you rather work at a loss for an npc corp or get paid a million isk per match by me? Whether those benefits can only be gained in the beginning through FW and later through null Sov makes no difference to me personally. That's all I am saying.

Simple corps doesn't solve this problem because its a Dusters on one side and Eve corps on the other deal. Why would anyone contract a Duster only Corp as the mechanics stand? If anyone can tell me a reason for an Eve Corp to pay a decent payout to a Dust corp that would be otherwise forced to fight for npc's pittance as it stands I will concede that I missed the point and happily go get some beer.

All I am arguing for here is a collective voice saying the only real option is the 'simplified corp division'. Its not an argument against Duster-only corps but some superficial integration will be necessary or else the Dusters are doomed to poverty in New Eden. Eve industrialists will hose them on asset prices, logistic support and orbital bombardment because they have no reason not to. Dusters will grind npc's because they will quickly realize fighting the faction wars (while fun) is a net loss game. If I can at least hire some Dusters and assure them of OB's, gear brought in from the affordable sources and other forms of logistical support then we go tthe beginnings of a meta-game without really ******* with the Eve economy or crashing the Sov alliances over-night and breaking New Eden.

I see the logic in caution but also realize that without a meta-game Dust is a care-bear npc grind for profit.

In New Eden, profit is King. As it stands it would make more sense for a Duster to grind npc drones with no significant financial loss than it would to pick up my Mass Driver and lob grenades at the Amarr Militia. One is pure profit, the other is at least occasional losses and consistently lower payouts because of asset loss. They will create a new care-bear scourge. Especially in light of the fact that they keep pointing out that payouts on matches will decrease and asset cost will increase.

I am seriously the only person that see's a problem here?

The ad hoc group system needs to come sooner than late 2012, and it needs to be able to field an entire team at once, not just a squad. This smells too much of BF3-style clans and groups, which were a pile of crap.

Mining in a rokh is also pure profit with no loss ever.

I'm pretty sure the end-game vision is not a care-bear NPC faction war game. But if you have EVE ISK burning a hole in your pocket, I'm sure I could come up with a nice scam for you to accept. ;)

Now everyone should remember that hose minutes are from may that's 2 months ago and a lot things could have changed for dust in that time.

edit:
Or June depending how you look at things.

kbm, aim assist, and no clan support.

original mechanics by far... wtg

posted my opinion of the Dust Session here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=232811#post232811

The social tools should have been in the beta from the beginning, their lack makes me question whether CCP really understands the world they've created at a social level and not just at a technical level.

2: CCP feels newbies will be overwhelmed. What?! First of all, way to insult the intelligence of the player base right off the bat. I know I am. Second, since when has CCP ever cared about people immediately understanding anything? The Eve tutorial teaches you just enough to get your ass blown up by pirates. It doesn't teach you about corp management or virtually any of the intricacies of the game. Why should Dust be any different? Is CCP, Sony, and the CSM saying that console players are stupid?

CCP taking it slow and want to get it right

If they **** up DUST it could **** up EVE

Aslong as grouping is in and the ability to form a corp im okay with it

It's hard to believe that new player would not be able understand EVE corp management.

I have played eve for four years. I have managed corps in high sec, null sec, and wormholes. I have been doing corp management for 3 of the 4 years I have played eve.

I do not understand Eves corp management system.

So yea, new players to DUST will certainly NOT understand the corp management system.

I have played eve for four years. I have managed corps in high sec, null sec, and wormholes. I have been doing corp management for 3 of the 4 years I have played eve.

I do not understand Eves corp management system.

So yea, new players to DUST will certainly NOT understand the corp management system.

I really wouldn't want a DUSTer to have EVE wallet/assets access or a director role. That's a great way of some random console kiddy messing up a corp with trillions of assets.

I really wouldn't want a DUSTer to have EVE wallet/assets access or a director role. That's a great way of some random console kiddy messing up a corp with trillions of assets.

I have played eve for four years. I have managed corps in high sec, null sec, and wormholes. I have been doing corp management for 3 of the 4 years I have played eve.

I do not understand Eves corp management system.

So yea, new players to DUST will certainly NOT understand the corp management system.

[quote=Mr Funless]Anyway, my meaning was that a Duster Corp, run from the console doesn't require more than that, at least at launch.

Well that makes more sense then.

Having EVEs corp management UI in a clean console format is a daunting task itself.

If EVE/DUST really are going to share corps eventually, imo the roles should be split. On the EVE side, DUST section should have

1. a separate corp wallet
2. separate director roles (can't touch anything in EVE)


This way a DUSTer can't screw up an EVE corp.

Well that makes more sense then.

Having EVEs corp management UI in a clean console format is a daunting task itself.

If EVE/DUST really are going to share corps eventually, imo the roles should be split. On the EVE side, DUST section should have

1. a separate corp wallet
2. separate director roles (can't touch anything in EVE)


This way a DUSTer can't screw up an EVE corp.

When Eve launched you could start your own Corp at launch. You could hold Sov at launch. A Dust Corp will be simpler in structure than an Eve Corp anyway, why would we need Starbase Managers for instance? Console players are not all a collection of retards and the inference that we are all too stupid to understand is offensive and frankly ridiculous.

After reading the entire document, I can say that there are a few places that I have concerns.

1. Corps. They need to be in, in full force, from launch. If that is technically unfeasible, then launch should be pushed back. There is absolutely NO reason why there should not be very very robust social/group tools in DUST from day 1.

2. Market interaction. I understand that balancing the costs means that some drop suits would cost as much or more than Eve frigates and that seems kind of silly when looked at logically. The converse is that the average Eve player has a couple of BILLION isk laying around at any given time (in either liquid or real assets) and can go out and spend a few hours running missions in empire and raise a couple hundred million in short order. This presents a problem. There are two possible solutions, make Dust gear as expensive as Eve ships (thus creating the silly situation where an assault rifle costs as much as a frigate or cruiser) or tax the crap out of money moving from eve to dust (thus restricting the market interaction between the games). I believe that any arbitrary rules that restrict gameplay are bad. But it would also be bad for Eve players to gentrify DUST such that its unplayable if you don't have an Eve patron. I don't have an easy solution for this problem. Perhaps I will start a new thread to discuss the implications of various solutions.

3. Lack of an interaction between DUST and Planetary Interaction in Eve. THe only way that planets make money (the driving force in Eve) is through PI, if DUST cannot affect PI, then it cannot affect the bottom line, and DUST will be ultimately a side mini metagame for Eve players. Trying to bandage this by having DUST 0.0 combat be "additive" to Sov warfare is poor design.

These are especially troubling concerns because I had thought that they would have been ironed out by now. We are likely one more beta build away from launch and some of the most important things that set DUST apart from other FPS games are going to go live with lackluster versions of what they should be.

I understand that CCP are able and willing to take the long view and iterate going forward after launch, I would simply prefer a more focused and streamlined launch of a product that is dead center where CCP aimed at it being, instead of the typical "Jesus Feature" to be iterated further

What I mean is that CCP might still change their mind about the matter before launch and no EvE didn't had alliances from the beginning, we didn't had null sec either or sovereignty for that matter, we also didn't had capital ships or mining vessels and a battleship was something to drool over back then.

We need a corp interaction with EvE even if it would work as nothing more then having public a chat channel in EvE but it would be at least something.

My mistake .. I was reading back through the history of the Eve expansions on wiki and it seemed to imply that Sov wars broke out pretty quickly. Apologies for the misinformation. I am guessing then, that the Corp management UI was also relatively simple back then as well? I feel the arguments regarding the UI are a bit disingenuous since it has evolved into 'Empire Management' over the years, which is understandably more complex than running a simple player organization.

I agree Tosch .. entirely. It is my hope that since the Corp tab is there on our menu they have realized what a mistake it would be to give us nothing. As I said it was dismaying to hear that they weren't even considering it as recently as two months ago.

What are your thoughts on Dusters having no impact at all on Sov (even within the FW systems which has no real impact on the player alliances)? I think that's bs myself.

What I mean is that CCP might still change their mind about the matter before launch and no EvE didn't had alliances from the beginning, we didn't had null sec either or sovereignty for that matter, we also didn't had capital ships or mining vessels and a battleship was something to drool over back then.

We need a corp interaction with EvE even if it would work as nothing more then having public a chat channel in EvE but it would be at least something.

@Tosch

The feedback is welcome .. as I said I have never tried it. I take it those materials are used in Capital Ship production and the building of Outposts as well?

A seasoned industrialist like myself would most likely setup a colony on every planet type needed to harvest all the materials required as creating a single POS literally requires constructing almost every P4 material in the list. I would then dedicate a single planet for refining said materials (one more production planet if needed).

You don't sound much like a seasoned industrialist then... Cause if you were seasoned you wouldn't be setting up resource gathering of disparate raw materials.

There's a limit on the number of planets each character can use, and logistics is a large part of the time spent on PI. Each command center has CPU/PG limits that means it is most efficient to produce P0->P1 (in the case of a planet with good deposits of a single resource) or P0->P2 (when you have decent deposits of two resources that make something).

When looking at logistics beyond that you have several barriers that induce ISK and opportunity cost. Those include taxes on export from planets, moving cargo between planets and between alts.

So if you are producing P4 components you likely aren't using the most resource rich planets in the area you operate, and/or dedicate some planets to P0->P3 production which severely reduces efficiency due to CPU/PG being dedicated to the last step of the conversion and having long logistics chains on a planet is expensive.