Mind you these minutes are a bit old, alot can change at ccp development in the past months.

(Also, I have my securities license and understand the mechanics of free-markets. Your forcing us into the video-game equivalent of sweat-shop labour on behalf of Faction Warfare.)

That's what l'm thinking too

[insert RP stuff] DUST soldiers were created to be pawns of the elite. Welcome to New Eden.

Anywho, I don't believe someone receiving contracts (DUSTers) should be making more than people giving them out (EVEers).

Me and my brother have a year old, two-man Eve corp that exists solely to fund our Dust514 war effort and add incentives to join our Corp. These announcements really disappoint me to be honest. Don't misunderstand, I love CCP and understand that Dust will never really be 'complete' in the way other games are BUT I HAVE ALREADY GAVE YOU A TON OF MONEY IN ANTICIPATION OF THIS.

Me and my brother have a year old, two-man Eve corp that exists solely to fund our Dust514 war effort and add incentives to join our Corp. These announcements really disappoint me to be honest. Don't misunderstand, I love CCP and understand that Dust will never really be 'complete' in the way other games are BUT I HAVE ALREADY GAVE YOU A TON OF MONEY IN ANTICIPATION OF THIS. The 'District Control' stuff not coming online until the kinks are worked out on SiSi makes total sense but not allowing me to consolidate my assets between the two platforms is lame.

This was the whole selling point for Dust, just to remind you. Lets not pretend like an additional tab under corp management is some monumental undertaking. The fluid exchange of isk and assets between Eve and Dust was the whole basis of the meta-game and don't give me that crap about Eve players having godlike wealth being detrimental to Dust. Postponing financial integration will create an issue here where there doesn't need to be one. Not allowing Dusters to impact on Sov assures a gigantic disparity in isk distribution, why pay premiums for Dusters if they have no impact on anything. Allowing Dusters to play at least some role on Sov issues assures Dusters of large boat loads of isk and will quickly equalize the financial disparity. Whereas forcing us to fight for npc payouts for two years will make us all so comparatively broke ass we will end up the pawns of the established Eve Corps.

The only way we are going to see premium payouts is going to be through player contracts. There isn't a mercenary Corp in Eve that will undock for less than a billion isk, many many many times what the best paying npc contracts pay. And that's the minimum. Not too mention that we can't even grind for easy money since we will more or less always be fighting other players with varying degrees of success. Even as things stand now in the beta it is possible to win your fight and lose money, forcing us to continue in this vein for another 2 years is preposterous.

(Also, I have my securities license and understand the mechanics of free-markets. Your forcing us into the video-game equivalent of sweat-shop labour on behalf of Faction Warfare.)

"CCP is looking at if they could have simple DUST corps, with chat channels. They understand the importance of corps, and are looking at a concept called "simple corps", with greatly streamlined management. Those might be part of a betarelease, or they might just have NPC/FW corps for people to join. At the latest, players would be able to join player alliances or corps in 2013. CCP is also looking at including persistent squads, so people can play matches with an ad-hoc group."

pg. 71

The CSM asked about joining player corps in the late 2012 release. CCP said that wasn't currently on the schedule. They don't want to stick something in that would break EVE, and are worried that EVE corps with role management and voting would be too much for DUST players.

pg. 71

[...]

CCP asked CSM for feedback on DUST corporations, and what the CSM's preferred vision for them would be. The options presented were:
1) Unified corps, where DUST and EVE corps are the same thing, including allowing DUST players to be CEOs of EVE corps.
2) A special DUST division of a regular EVE corporation, where the DUST players would have some autonomy from the parent corporation.
3) Entirely separate DUST and EVE corporations but allowing contracts/alignment between them or allow DUST corps to join EVE alliances.
The CSM and CCP discussed people's desire to easily manage DUST and EVE players in the future, especially moving ISK/AUR between the two if/when that is allowed. CCP has had people ask them about multiboxing DUST and EVE.
Kelduum was in favor of allowing both DUST corps and allowing DUST players into EVE corps, with much limited roles and whatnot. The entire CSM said that having some sort of corporation at launch of DUST was critical, even if it wasn't the eventual ideal structure.
Alekseyev: Don't punish DUST corps with the EVE corp UI.

pg. 72

Typical
CSM 7 is 0.0 alliance dominated.

0.0 alliances have a two sided face,
They brag like hell about how great they are, and on the other side the whine like little kids when something is threatening their 0.0 playstyle.

I hope we get our own CSM.

I think Dust will get it's own CSM.

0.0 alliances are kinda EVE's favorite though. They fight for sov, stir up drama, toy with the economy, amass tons of players.. basically keep things interesting. I'd love to see all these POS/starbase changes and I'm not even in an alliance.

I'm actually excited we'll be doing faction war first. I hope we can at least start Dust mini corps within faction though, to give unity outside faction, and be able to gather and use expensive resources.

Of course they're afraid, Nobody else has done it before!

No disrespect to you and your corp, but 2 accounts going for a year and even adding on that 2 merc packs might pay for a handful of dev hours after overhead. In their eyes, or any business owner's eyes, this is not a ton of money.

Some thoughts from 2 months or so ago are not the entirety of Dust's development cycle. If successful, Dust could be around for 5-10+ years.

Obviously, my sub isn't solely funding Dusts development cycle. I don't play monthly sub games because they are a sad waste of money with the exception of Eve which consistently rewards me for that monthly investment with tons of new content added regularly at no extra cost. Customer satisfaction is pretty important to any business owner, player engagement is pretty important to any video game company and CCP obviously understands that better than most companies in the gaming industry.

The point to that statement was that I spent lots of my money, so that I would be able to pay a collection of Dusters well to fight with me on behalf of my Corp. A Corp that I have worked to optimize on behalf of the Dust514 gameplay. I doubt very much that I am the only person who has invested time and money into the meta-game. So having the only feedback we have gotten thus far regarding how Dust will function at launch essentially deny any meta-game at all is a real disappointment. While I will wait to light up my torch and grab my pitchfork as well, you will have to pardon me for expressing my dismay at the news.

In New Eden, profit is King. As it stands it would make more sense for a Duster to grind npc drones with no significant financial loss than it would to pick up my Mass Driver and lob grenades at the Amarr Militia. One is pure profit, the other is at least occasional losses and consistently lower payouts because of asset loss. They will create a new care-bear scourge. Especially in light of the fact that they keep pointing out that payouts on matches will decrease and asset cost will increase.

I am seriously the only person that see's a problem here?

[quote=Unit-775]
I'm actually excited we'll be doing faction war first. I hope we can at least start Dust mini corps within faction though, to give unity outside faction, and be able to gather and use expensive resources.

I just had Warhammer 40k Space Marine chapters flash through my head. Different but similar super soldiers, universally fighting for one side, but still have squabbling between themselves

Just to be clear .. this isn't a 'I will rage-quit' thing.

Its a .. there is no meta-game if we can't employ Dusters through Eve Corps thing. I am heartened that the CSM argued for some degree of integration and disheartened that CCP wasn't even considering it for release. Ya'll should be as well. Even in FW it will stand to reason that their will be industrial benefits to holding Planets (they said as much in the minutes). A streamlined, Duster only Corp is not meta-game. The impact of Dusters on Sov can be field tested in FW given the recent Inferno changes. I want to assure my Corp-mates of good gear and a happy home, I want to assure my Faction (I have no issue with us beginning there) that my Corp is highly regarded by being able to pay my mates well for being awesome.

As a Duster (regardless of how elaborate or not Corp structure is) would you rather work at a loss for an npc corp or get paid a million isk per match by me? Whether those benefits can only be gained in the beginning through FW and later through null Sov makes no difference to me personally. That's all I am saying.

Simple corps doesn't solve this problem because its a Dusters on one side and Eve corps on the other deal. Why would anyone contract a Duster only Corp as the mechanics stand? If anyone can tell me a reason for an Eve Corp to pay a decent payout to a Dust corp that would be otherwise forced to fight for npc's pittance as it stands I will concede that I missed the point and happily go get some beer.

All I am arguing for here is a collective voice saying the only real option is the 'simplified corp division'. Its not an argument against Duster-only corps but some superficial integration will be necessary or else the Dusters are doomed to poverty in New Eden. Eve industrialists will hose them on asset prices, logistic support and orbital bombardment because they have no reason not to. Dusters will grind npc's because they will quickly realize fighting the faction wars (while fun) is a net loss game. If I can at least hire some Dusters and assure them of OB's, gear brought in from the affordable sources and other forms of logistical support then we go tthe beginnings of a meta-game without really ******* with the Eve economy or crashing the Sov alliances over-night and breaking New Eden.

I see the logic in caution but also realize that without a meta-game Dust is a care-bear npc grind for profit.

In New Eden, profit is King. As it stands it would make more sense for a Duster to grind npc drones with no significant financial loss than it would to pick up my Mass Driver and lob grenades at the Amarr Militia. One is pure profit, the other is at least occasional losses and consistently lower payouts because of asset loss. They will create a new care-bear scourge. Especially in light of the fact that they keep pointing out that payouts on matches will decrease and asset cost will increase.

I am seriously the only person that see's a problem here?