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CSM meeting minutes; Summer of 2012

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EnIgMa99 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 219	Posted - 2012.08.03 13:27:00 - [61] - Quote J'Jor Da'Wg wrote: The ad hoc group system needs to come sooner than late 2012, and it needs to be able to field an entire team at once, not just a squad. This smells too much of BF3-style clans and groups, which were a pile of crap. agreed
ryan valentine Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 15	Posted - 2012.08.03 16:45:00 - [62] - Quote Rasatsu wrote: ryan valentine wrote: In New Eden, profit is King. As it stands it would make more sense for a Duster to grind npc drones with no significant financial loss than it would to pick up my Mass Driver and lob grenades at the Amarr Militia. One is pure profit, the other is at least occasional losses and consistently lower payouts because of asset loss. They will create a new care-bear scourge. Especially in light of the fact that they keep pointing out that payouts on matches will decrease and asset cost will increase. I am seriously the only person that see's a problem here? Mining in a rokh is also pure profit with no loss ever. Kinda my whole point.
ryan valentine Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 15	Posted - 2012.08.03 16:47:00 - [63] - Quote Rhadiem wrote: ryan valentine wrote: Just to be clear .. this isn't a 'I will rage-quit' thing. Its a .. there is no meta-game if we can't employ Dusters through Eve Corps thing. I am heartened that the CSM argued for some degree of integration and disheartened that CCP wasn't even considering it for release. Ya'll should be as well. Even in FW it will stand to reason that their will be industrial benefits to holding Planets (they said as much in the minutes). A streamlined, Duster only Corp is not meta-game. The impact of Dusters on Sov can be field tested in FW given the recent Inferno changes. I want to assure my Corp-mates of good gear and a happy home, I want to assure my Faction (I have no issue with us beginning there) that my Corp is highly regarded by being able to pay my mates well for being awesome. As a Duster (regardless of how elaborate or not Corp structure is) would you rather work at a loss for an npc corp or get paid a million isk per match by me? Whether those benefits can only be gained in the beginning through FW and later through null Sov makes no difference to me personally. That's all I am saying. Simple corps doesn't solve this problem because its a Dusters on one side and Eve corps on the other deal. Why would anyone contract a Duster only Corp as the mechanics stand? If anyone can tell me a reason for an Eve Corp to pay a decent payout to a Dust corp that would be otherwise forced to fight for npc's pittance as it stands I will concede that I missed the point and happily go get some beer. All I am arguing for here is a collective voice saying the only real option is the 'simplified corp division'. Its not an argument against Duster-only corps but some superficial integration will be necessary or else the Dusters are doomed to poverty in New Eden. Eve industrialists will hose them on asset prices, logistic support and orbital bombardment because they have no reason not to. Dusters will grind npc's because they will quickly realize fighting the faction wars (while fun) is a net loss game. If I can at least hire some Dusters and assure them of OB's, gear brought in from the affordable sources and other forms of logistical support then we go tthe beginnings of a meta-game without really ******* with the Eve economy or crashing the Sov alliances over-night and breaking New Eden. I see the logic in caution but also realize that without a meta-game Dust is a care-bear npc grind for profit. I'm pretty sure the end-game vision is not a care-bear NPC faction war game. But if you have EVE ISK burning a hole in your pocket, I'm sure I could come up with a nice scam for you to accept. ;) Condescension duly noted. Seriously, if you can see all the angles maybe just answer the question in the post? Why contract a Duster as the mechanics stand?
ryan valentine Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 15	Posted - 2012.08.03 16:55:00 - [64] - Quote carl von oppenheimer wrote: Now everyone should remember that hose minutes are from may that's 2 months ago and a lot things could have changed for dust in that time. edit: Or June depending how you look at things. Ya'll keep saying this, have you read something I haven't? As far as I know (and I will contentedly accept correction) this is the first information we have received on what the Devs envision for Dust at launch and to be frank I doubt very much that has changed much over a two month period. Gun-balance can change a lot in two months, vehicle balance can change a lot in two months but no actually, the whole of a games development arc can't. When Eve launched you could start your own Corp at launch. You could hold Sov at launch. A Dust Corp will be simpler in structure than an Eve Corp anyway, why would we need Starbase Managers for instance? Console players are not all a collection of retards and the inference that we are all too stupid to understand is offensive and frankly ridiculous.
Boss Dirge Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 71	Posted - 2012.08.03 16:59:00 - [65] - Quote If there is no direct implementation of Dust planned for launch then why was it brought up at the CSM meeting at all? CCP has told Eve players more about dust than the people testing dust. So far the excuses I have heard in support of this frankly minimal rollout are: 1: It might break Eve.... uh I don't think so. The amount of isk it will take to fund a merc corp is negligible and would have a real hard time impacting even the lowliest of Eve Corps. 2: CCP feels newbies will be overwhelmed. What?! First of all, way to insult the intelligence of the player base right off the bat. I know I am. Second, since when has CCP ever cared about people immediately understanding anything? The Eve tutorial teaches you just enough to get your ass blown up by pirates. It doesn't teach you about corp management or virtually any of the intricacies of the game. Why should Dust be any different? Is CCP, Sony, and the CSM saying that console players are stupid? I have read thread after thread by the MAG and CoD players talking about how they can't wait to get involved in hopefully shaking up Eve. The game itself is not good enough on it's own to make them stick around if they can't taste the salty tears of real players. I am a little tired of hearing that Dust is somehow going to break the Eve economy. I know CCP has an economist, but then I am pretty sure the government of Greece does too. CCP allowed the Goonswarm to try and break the Eve economy during the burn Jita event. They was a tiny rumble in the Eve economy and in the end it actually helped overall. Burn Jita involved trillions of ISK and would be a far larger impact than Dust mercenaries. I am with Valentine and the others on this one. The less integration there is, the poorer the experience will be for the players of both Dust and Eve. People can only have a carrot dangled in front of their faces for so long before they walk away. FW is not enough to keep them around because it has no real impact on Eve players.
TEBOW BAGGINS FIREFLY ATLANTIS ENTERPRISES UNLIMITED TACNET 549	Posted - 2012.08.03 17:04:00 - [66] - Quote kbm, aim assist, and no clan support. original mechanics by far... wtg
Boss Dirge Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 71	Posted - 2012.08.03 17:10:00 - [67] - Quote TEBOW BAGGINS wrote: kbm, aim assist, and no clan support. original mechanics by far... wtg Kinda makes all those clan recruitment threads in general useless huh?
mandrill the red Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 21	Posted - 2012.08.03 17:11:00 - [68] - Quote posted my opinion of the Dust Session here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=232811#post232811 The social tools should have been in the beta from the beginning, their lack makes me question whether CCP really understands the world they've created at a social level and not just at a technical level.
Boss Dirge Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 71	Posted - 2012.08.03 17:16:00 - [69] - Quote mandrill the red wrote: posted my opinion of the Dust Session here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=232811#post232811 The social tools should have been in the beta from the beginning, their lack makes me question whether CCP really understands the world they've created at a social level and not just at a technical level. Great point. I mean if people don't even want to test the beta anymore because they still can't team up, what hope does Dust have after release if corps and clan support are not active right away?
Khal Photo Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 1	Posted - 2012.08.03 17:21:00 - [70] - Quote Boss Dirge wrote: 2: CCP feels newbies will be overwhelmed. What?! First of all, way to insult the intelligence of the player base right off the bat. I know I am. Second, since when has CCP ever cared about people immediately understanding anything? The Eve tutorial teaches you just enough to get your ass blown up by pirates. It doesn't teach you about corp management or virtually any of the intricacies of the game. Why should Dust be any different? Is CCP, Sony, and the CSM saying that console players are stupid? I have never played eve, but It's hard to believe that new player would not be able to learn EVE corp management. While it may take sometime to learn it, that usually adds to the fun of the game for some people. If it becomes to hard what is stopping players from joining other corps more than likely created by eve players playing dust? (Since you have many EVE players playing Dust just look at the many threads giving tips to DUST players about EVE politics and such.) If there afraid that the PS3 would not be able to handle it than they should say so instead of making it a learning curve issue. Hopefully they will work it out that this comes out sooner rather than later (as long as it is working properly of course).

mandrill the red Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 21	Posted - 2012.08.03 17:22:00 - [71] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: CCP taking it slow and want to get it right If they ** up DUST it could ** up EVE Aslong as grouping is in and the ability to form a corp im okay with it I'm all for taking it slow and getting it right too, but the lack of grouping or Dusters being able to create corporations is simply wrong. That is not 'getting it right' that is getting it so wrong it has the potential to be game breaking.
Traynor Youngs Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 287	Posted - 2012.08.03 17:24:00 - [72] - Quote Khal Photo wrote: It's hard to believe that new player would not be able understand EVE corp management. I have played eve for four years. I have managed corps in high sec, null sec, and wormholes. I have been doing corp management for 3 of the 4 years I have played eve. I do not understand Eves corp management system. So yea, new players to DUST will certainly NOT understand the corp management system.
ryan valentine Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 15	Posted - 2012.08.03 17:31:00 - [73] - Quote Traynor Youngs wrote: Khal Photo wrote: It's hard to believe that new player would not be able understand EVE corp management. I have played eve for four years. I have managed corps in high sec, null sec, and wormholes. I have been doing corp management for 3 of the 4 years I have played eve. I do not understand Eves corp management system. So yea, new players to DUST will certainly NOT understand the corp management system. If you have managed to run Corps through every permutation of the Eve universe without understanding the UI you're actually arguing that it is a relatively simple thing to use. Dust Corps require the following to function at launch: 1. Director Role 2. Asset access permissions 3. Wallet access permissions 4. Squads (if you want to get a little fancy) Honestly, what else do you require?
Mr Funless Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 191	Posted - 2012.08.03 17:34:00 - [74] - Quote I really wouldn't want a DUSTer to have EVE wallet/assets access or a director role. That's a great way of some random console kiddy messing up a corp with trillions of assets.
Boss Dirge Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 71	Posted - 2012.08.03 17:36:00 - [75] - Quote Traynor Youngs wrote: Khal Photo wrote: It's hard to believe that new player would not be able understand EVE corp management. I have played eve for four years. I have managed corps in high sec, null sec, and wormholes. I have been doing corp management for 3 of the 4 years I have played eve. I do not understand Eves corp management system. So yea, new players to DUST will certainly NOT understand the corp management system. And I am saying it doesn't matter if they understand it or not. If you have played as a corp manager for 3 years and you still don't understand it all that says something right there. First of all you didn't just give up and quit trying. Second, you learned it through trial and error (and likely a little friendly advice), with your big giant human brain. Third, the basic mechanics of corp management must be straightforward enough(they are because I play eve too and help run a corp) to at least get the job done. Fourth, the in depth aspects of corp management are only there to be used if you want to put the time into it. It will make your corp more profitable but it is not strictly necessary for the successful maintenance of a corporation. I think the fundamental aspects of corporation management are extremely simple (even for a console player who are apparently ********), and there is no reason why they should not be implemented at launch. If the console players are just in it for the pew pew then fine, don't go heavy into your corp management. That's at least a choice we can make rather than having CCP just tell us we aren't ready for it.
ryan valentine Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 15	Posted - 2012.08.03 17:37:00 - [76] - Quote Mr Funless wrote: I really wouldn't want a DUSTer to have EVE wallet/assets access or a director role. That's a great way of some random console kiddy messing up a corp with trillions of assets. Then don't give it to them, how is that any different from a newly hired pilot in Eve? Its a freaking box you either check or don't. Anyway, my meaning was that a Duster Corp, run from the console doesn't require more than that, at least at launch.
Boss Dirge Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 71	Posted - 2012.08.03 17:38:00 - [77] - Quote Mr Funless wrote: I really wouldn't want a DUSTer to have EVE wallet/assets access or a director role. That's a great way of some random console kiddy messing up a corp with trillions of assets. That's pretty simple then, don't give it to them.
Khal Photo Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 1	Posted - 2012.08.03 17:39:00 - [78] - Quote Traynor Youngs wrote: Khal Photo wrote: It's hard to believe that new player would not be able understand EVE corp management. I have played eve for four years. I have managed corps in high sec, null sec, and wormholes. I have been doing corp management for 3 of the 4 years I have played eve. I do not understand Eves corp management system. So yea, new players to DUST will certainly NOT understand the corp management system. I meant to say learn EVE corp Management.
Boss Dirge Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 71	Posted - 2012.08.03 17:40:00 - [79] - Quote I am sure none of those military contractors like Blackwater ever did any paperwork. They just ran around shooting at people and kind of guessed at the amount of money they should charge.
Mr Funless Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 191	Posted - 2012.08.03 17:44:00 - [80] - Quote ryan valentine wrote: [quote=Mr Funless]Anyway, my meaning was that a Duster Corp, run from the console doesn't require more than that, at least at launch. Well that makes more sense then. Having EVEs corp management UI in a clean console format is a daunting task itself. If EVE/DUST really are going to share corps eventually, imo the roles should be split. On the EVE side, DUST section should have 1. a separate corp wallet 2. separate director roles (can't touch anything in EVE) This way a DUSTer can't screw up an EVE corp.

Boss Dirge Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 71	Posted - 2012.08.03 17:46:00 - [81] - Quote Mr Funless wrote: ryan valentine wrote: [quote=Mr Funless]Anyway, my meaning was that a Duster Corp, run from the console doesn't require more than that, at least at launch. Well that makes more sense then. Having EVEs corp management UI in a clean console format is a daunting task itself. If EVE/DUST really are going to share corps eventually, imo the roles should be split. On the EVE side, DUST section should have 1. a separate corp wallet 2. separate director roles (can't touch anything in EVE) This way a DUSTer can't screw up an EVE corp. And if CCP hasn't thought of this already then all hope is lost.
ryan valentine Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 15	Posted - 2012.08.03 17:52:00 - [82] - Quote Mr Funless wrote: ryan valentine wrote: [quote=Mr Funless]Anyway, my meaning was that a Duster Corp, run from the console doesn't require more than that, at least at launch. Well that makes more sense then. Having EVEs corp management UI in a clean console format is a daunting task itself. If EVE/DUST really are going to share corps eventually, imo the roles should be split. On the EVE side, DUST section should have 1. a separate corp wallet 2. separate director roles (can't touch anything in EVE) This way a DUSTer can't screw up an EVE corp. This was what I meant down-thread regarding a simplified Corp Division (with an accompanying Wallet Division). I apologize if I came off a bit harshly there .. kinda feel like I am running at a wall. Should get some more coffee in me.
Traynor Youngs Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 287	Posted - 2012.08.03 18:29:00 - [83] - Quote After reading the entire document, I can say that there are a few places that I have concerns. 1. Corps. They need to be in, in full force, from launch. If that is technically unfeasible, then launch should be pushed back. There is absolutely NO reason why there should not be very very robust social/group tools in DUST from day 1. 2. Market interaction. I understand that balancing the costs means that some drop suits would cost as much or more than Eve frigates and that seems kind of silly when looked at logically. The converse is that the average Eve player has a couple of BILLION isk laying around at any given time (in either liquid or real assets) and can go out and spend a few hours running missions in empire and raise a couple hundred million in short order. This presents a problem. There are two possible solutions, make Dust gear as expensive as Eve ships (thus creating the silly situation where an assault rifle costs as much as a frigate or cruiser) or tax the crap out of money moving from eve to dust (thus restricting the market interaction between the games). I believe that any arbitrary rules that restrict gameplay are bad. But it would also be bad for Eve players to gentrify DUST such that its unplayable if you don't have an Eve patron. I don't have an easy solution for this problem. Perhaps I will start a new thread to discuss the implications of various solutions. 3. Lack of an interaction between DUST and Planetary Interaction in Eve. THe only way that planets make money (the driving force in Eve) is through PI, if DUST cannot affect PI, then it cannot affect the bottom line, and DUST will be ultimately a side mini metagame for Eve players. Trying to bandage this by having DUST 0.0 combat be "additive" to Sov warfare is poor design. These are especially troubling concerns because I had thought that they would have been ironed out by now. We are likely one more beta build away from launch and some of the most important things that set DUST apart from other FPS games are going to go live with lackluster versions of what they should be. I understand that CCP are able and willing to take the long view and iterate going forward after launch, I would simply prefer a more focused and streamlined launch of a product that is dead center where CCP aimed at it being, instead of the typical "Jesus Feature" to be iterated further
carl von oppenheimer Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 158	Posted - 2012.08.03 19:26:00 - [84] - Quote ryan valentine wrote: When Eve launched you could start your own Corp at launch. You could hold Sov at launch. A Dust Corp will be simpler in structure than an Eve Corp anyway, why would we need Starbase Managers for instance? Console players are not all a collection of retards and the inference that we are all too stupid to understand is offensive and frankly ridiculous. What I mean is that CCP might still change their mind about the matter before launch and no EvE didn't had alliances from the beginning, we didn't had null sec either or sovereignty for that matter, we also didn't had capital ships or mining vessels and a battleship was something to drool over back then. We need a corp interaction with EvE even if it would work as nothing more then having public a chat channel in EvE but it would be at least something.
ryan valentine Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 15	Posted - 2012.08.03 19:37:00 - [85] - Quote Traynor Youngs wrote: After reading the entire document, I can say that there are a few places that I have concerns. 1. Corps. They need to be in, in full force, from launch. If that is technically unfeasible, then launch should be pushed back. There is absolutely NO reason why there should not be very very robust social/group tools in DUST from day 1. 2. Market interaction. I understand that balancing the costs means that some drop suits would cost as much or more than Eve frigates and that seems kind of silly when looked at logically. The converse is that the average Eve player has a couple of BILLION isk laying around at any given time (in either liquid or real assets) and can go out and spend a few hours running missions in empire and raise a couple hundred million in short order. This presents a problem. There are two possible solutions, make Dust gear as expensive as Eve ships (thus creating the silly situation where an assault rifle costs as much as a frigate or cruiser) or tax the crap out of money moving from eve to dust (thus restricting the market interaction between the games). I believe that any arbitrary rules that restrict gameplay are bad. But it would also be bad for Eve players to gentrify DUST such that its unplayable if you don't have an Eve patron. I don't have an easy solution for this problem. Perhaps I will start a new thread to discuss the implications of various solutions. 3. Lack of an interaction between DUST and Planetary Interaction in Eve. THe only way that planets make money (the driving force in Eve) is through PI, if DUST cannot affect PI, then it cannot affect the bottom line, and DUST will be ultimately a side mini metagame for Eve players. Trying to bandage this by having DUST 0.0 combat be "additive" to Sov warfare is poor design. These are especially troubling concerns because I had thought that they would have been ironed out by now. We are likely one more beta build away from launch and some of the most important things that set DUST apart from other FPS games are going to go live with lackluster versions of what they should be. I understand that CCP are able and willing to take the long view and iterate going forward after launch, I would simply prefer a more focused and streamlined launch of a product that is dead center where CCP aimed at it being, instead of the typical "Jesus Feature" to be iterated further I am with you on 1. and 3. but I disagree a bit regarding your points on market interaction. While a dropsuit costing as much a frigate is a bit of a logic hole, is it really a gameplay problem? If you can afford it, if the price points are in keeping with what a Duster is earning then does it really matter? If a dropsuit is comparatively worthless then there is no reason for Eve industrialists to produce any of our gear. If a stack of 20 fetches the same price as a single frigate then competition between industrialists will keep the market flush and the gear affordable. If our gear is cheap and worthless we will be buying from npc sources forever. Also, if our most expensive gear costs as much as the cheapest stuff in Eve that doesn't really even seem that illogical to me. A new Eve player requires a 'patron' in the form of an established Corp .. I have no problem with that being true for Dusters or fledgling Duster-only Corps as well.
ryan valentine Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 15	Posted - 2012.08.03 19:41:00 - [86] - Quote carl von oppenheimer wrote: ryan valentine wrote: When Eve launched you could start your own Corp at launch. You could hold Sov at launch. A Dust Corp will be simpler in structure than an Eve Corp anyway, why would we need Starbase Managers for instance? Console players are not all a collection of retards and the inference that we are all too stupid to understand is offensive and frankly ridiculous. What I mean is that CCP might still change their mind about the matter before launch and no EvE didn't had alliances from the beginning, we didn't had null sec either or sovereignty for that matter, we also didn't had capital ships or mining vessels and a battleship was something to drool over back then. We need a corp interaction with EvE even if it would work as nothing more then having public a chat channel in EvE but it would be at least something. My mistake .. I was reading back through the history of the Eve expansions on wiki and it seemed to imply that Sov wars broke out pretty quickly. Apologies for the misinformation. I am guessing then, that the Corp management UI was also relatively simple back then as well? I feel the arguments regarding the UI are a bit disingenuous since it has evolved into 'Empire Management' over the years, which is understandably more complex than running a simple player organization.
ryan valentine Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 15	Posted - 2012.08.03 21:29:00 - [87] - Quote I am keeping this on the main page.
Maken Tosch 263	Posted - 2012.08.03 21:57:00 - [88] - Quote ryan valentine wrote: carl von oppenheimer wrote: ryan valentine wrote: When Eve launched you could start your own Corp at launch. You could hold Sov at launch. A Dust Corp will be simpler in structure than an Eve Corp anyway, why would we need Starbase Managers for instance? Console players are not all a collection of retards and the inference that we are all too stupid to understand is offensive and frankly ridiculous. What I mean is that CCP might still change their mind about the matter before launch and no EvE didn't had alliances from the beginning, we didn't had null sec either or sovereignty for that matter, we also didn't had capital ships or mining vessels and a battleship was something to drool over back then. We need a corp interaction with EvE even if it would work as nothing more then having public a chat channel in EvE but it would be at least something. My mistake .. I was reading back through the history of the Eve expansions on wiki and it seemed to imply that Sov wars broke out pretty quickly. Apologies for the misinformation. I am guessing then, that the Corp management UI was also relatively simple back then as well? I feel the arguments regarding the UI are a bit disingenuous since it has evolved into 'Empire Management' over the years, which is understandably more complex than running a simple player organization. Carl is right about how Eve was back then. And yes, Eve was far less complicated back then as it was today. It took Eve some time to get really complicated because CCP was trying to mitigate code errors (which still exist to this day) that could result in an exploit. One case in point was the starbase (POS) management system. A few years ago, CCP found out that a number of players were using an exploit that was basically a quirk in the mechanics that allowed POS users to produce more materials out of nothing. CCP then began a campaign called "UNHOLY RAGE" in which all starbases that have been found to be using such exploit were destroyed instantly. The owners of said starbases were found guilty of using the exploit. There were also some glitches that plenty of experienced corp managers already know about that took a while to fix. How I interpreted the CSM Minutes is not that CCP wants to just stick to "simple corps" forever. I figure that maybe CCP is just taking it slow and introduce the rest of the complicated management tools later on once everything is settled. And yes, Sovereignty as it is in Eve did not exist until the Dominion Expansion. Up until then, sovereignty was determined more by the placement of POS structures rather than by some TCU (Territorial Control Unit). This resulted in the use of what many alliances call Dik Stars because such POS structures were placed and fitted for maximum resistance and have no purpose being there other than to create a distraction. Think of them as SPAM on steroids. That changed when the new sovereignty mechanics came in which added to the complexity of the management of territories. As you can see, corp management in Eve had to take baby steps. Also, let us not forget that these CSM minutes are old by several months. That means even the core mechanics will change. And yes, even the core mechanics can be adjusted. They are not something CCP just makes and forgets about it. They fix it and improve it when needed. Therefore, I can anticipate that corp management will be made complicated as demand for such features grow and as CCP sees that the economy and game is ready for these "complex" tools. They are simply learning from their past experience with Eve. In other words, just be patient. It took Eve Online 9 years to get to where it is now and even then it is still not finished. In fact, CCP referred to Eve as being on permanent beta. Don't expect Dust to be complete and full on day one. PS: I'm less concerned about newbies understanding corp management, but I am hugely concerned about seeing mistakes pop up if everything was thrown in at once. CCP tried that once and look where that got them.
ryan valentine Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 15	Posted - 2012.08.03 22:06:00 - [89] - Quote I agree Tosch .. entirely. It is my hope that since the Corp tab is there on our menu they have realized what a mistake it would be to give us nothing. As I said it was dismaying to hear that they weren't even considering it as recently as two months ago. What are your thoughts on Dusters having no impact at all on Sov (even within the FW systems which has no real impact on the player alliances)? I think that's bs myself.
Maken Tosch 263	Posted - 2012.08.03 23:08:00 - [90] - Quote ryan valentine wrote: I agree Tosch .. entirely. It is my hope that since the Corp tab is there on our menu they have realized what a mistake it would be to give us nothing. As I said it was dismaying to hear that they weren't even considering it as recently as two months ago. What are your thoughts on Dusters having no impact at all on Sov (even within the FW systems which has no real impact on the player alliances)? I think that's bs myself. On sovereignty? Well, I'm not surprised that CCP is not adding this first. Sovereignty is quite tricky to balance. You have to consider that most alliances don't look at planets as important assets to defend because they are currently not needed to gain sovereignty in the system. They are seen as nothing more than a passive source of income or a secondary source fuel for POS structures. Such fuel can already be bought in Jita and shipped to 0.0 via secure cyno routes with escorts. This is why null-sec alliances don't see planets as important to conquer. The players living in high-sec space harvesting said resources are already doing that for them. It's just a matter shipping which can be cheaper and faster. And this is just regarding planetary interaction. If planets will be required to control sovereignty in null-sec, this would have to be very careful. Every star system on average has about 3-4 planets and there are well over thousands of null-sec systems. Will CCP require conquest of every planet per system or just a set percentage of planets per system to gain sovereignty in addition dealing with TCUs and SBUs that Eve has? What about the systems that are already claimed? If conquering a planet in a system is needed to retain sovereignty, that would make every system vulnerable to attack while the alliance has to scramble to hire new mercs to take those planets and retain sovereignty. And considering that DUST will not have that many players at first, the pool of available mercs will be small while demand shoots through the roof like a Skyfire Cannon shooting at a Moros. It would be just like a labor shortage. Until enough Dust players join, null-sec alliances will have a tough time finding needed help. Not to mention the fact that a Dust corp might switch sides if the enemy pays them better. What about time zones? Not everyone wakes up at the time. And with the limited number of players at launch, finding help that is awake at the moment will be extremely tough unless console players truly hold up to the stereotype that they can stay up day and night all jacked up with 5-Hour Energy and Red Bull. Eve Online's population was a lot smaller back then. It was unheard of to see 100,000 players join Eve. They are now at about 400,000-500,000 players and counting. Until we have enough Dust players, null-sec alliances will be screwed if Dust is allowed to impact sovereignty on day one. ... But then again, that would also be funny. I like to see what would happen and how panicky the power blocs get when they can't find enough help from Dust. But again, we have to consider possible exploits and bugs that could emerge if CCP were to implement it on day one. Now, I could be wrong and we might see a flood of players ranging in the hundreds of thousands coming to Dust who never heard of Eve Online. Even then, CCP has to make sure the mechanics don't bring in any bugs that can be exploited and thus damage the economy. As you can see, the economy is also an important factor to consider. I know, I'm bummed out too that Dust won't get to affect sovereignty warfare this year (but later on). But I'm at least glad that CCP is being careful first. As for faction warfare, that alone in Eve Online is already effecting the boundaries of the four npc empires. That was the whole point of the Inferno Expansion because FW players wanted their effort to have a meaningful impact on their territory. And since low-sec is effected by FW players as well, we should at least see our impact made to low-sec dwellers.



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