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Boss Dirge
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
71
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Posted - 2012.08.04 02:51:00 -
[91] - Quote
Nothing ventured, nothing gained. |
carl von oppenheimer
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
158
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Posted - 2012.08.04 06:19:00 -
[92] - Quote
As for sovereignty in the beginning it was dictated by having POS in system moons and fuelling all of those was a gruelling experience. A d i c k star was an invention of goons where you filled the tower as much E-war (ecm) as you possibly could to impede the attacker. Resist star is a tower filled with resist amplifiers so that the tower has over 90% resists across the board. Death star is one filled with maximum amount of weaponry for opponent to bring large enough ships that cannot escape when you hot drop them.
Each of these designs fill a one purpose to make attacker spend as much time as possible or to commit as much resources as possible which in turn makes possible attackers to look else where. With old sov d i c k & resists stars were a king because you had to grind those towers for hours which was quite suitable deterrent for any but the strongest attacker.
Remember that before dominion capital, let alone super capitals were a rare thing (super have always e-war immunity, regular cap only in siege/triage mode).
Unholy rage was campaign against mining bots that were banned by the thousands. T20 incident was case where you started the moon drill and the storage silos still kept filling up even if they were off line ... This bug was there for a long time but "omerta" kept the collective mouths shut, lest the CCP would find out; until CCP did and fixed the exploit.
These days CCP has "plex for snitches" which rewards those who reveal exploits for CCP with plex(es) (game time = 500mil ISK).
Edit: One system in EvE can have a many as 120 moons, also old sovereignty had what was called "a capital system" where you had to had a sovereignty from all of the near by systems to claim the station in system as stations ownership was required to claim sovereignty of a system with a station. |
mandrill the red
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
21
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Posted - 2012.08.04 09:08:00 -
[93] - Quote
carl von oppenheimer wrote:ryan valentine wrote:
When Eve launched you could start your own Corp at launch. You could hold Sov at launch. A Dust Corp will be simpler in structure than an Eve Corp anyway, why would we need Starbase Managers for instance? Console players are not all a collection of retards and the inference that we are all too stupid to understand is offensive and frankly ridiculous.
What I mean is that CCP might still change their mind about the matter before launch and no EvE didn't had alliances from the beginning, we didn't had null sec either or sovereignty for that matter, we also didn't had capital ships or mining vessels and a battleship was something to drool over back then. We need a corp interaction with EvE even if it would work as nothing more then having public a chat channel in EvE but it would be at least something.
EVE still doesn't have dedicated mechanics for Alliances. As I understand it the current Alliance mechanics are simply the corporation mechanics applied one level up the hierarchy. They do the job, but badly. |
zerkin gerend
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
67
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Posted - 2012.08.04 09:33:00 -
[94] - Quote
can i get a tl dr
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ryan valentine
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
15
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Posted - 2012.08.04 17:30:00 -
[95] - Quote
Thanks for clearing that Oppenheimer .. now that you mention it I remember reading on the forums about the butt-pain caused by the old sov system. I still think it's total horse-shyte that our actions as Dusters have no impact on Sov whatsoever .. I feel thoroughly deceived by CCP's whole One Universe One War thing. This is very much two wars to my view, no matter how well the ground pounders do it changes nothing in the overall landscape and right now in Eve Pl (while an easy, passive income) is the least profitable undertaking in the game. Will the null sec Alliances care if you control all the planets in one of their systems? Why should they?
And ya, I understand the need for caution in implementation but seriously, if we are all starting in FW what really stands to be lost? I moved back from Null when Inferno launched because it seemed pretty obvious that that's where Dust would be happening. In FW as it currently stands the Sov alignment of a system is a minor inconvenience to the opposing side. No alliances will fall, no player corps with years of investment will be run out of their homes. Also, everyone there hates the plex system of turning a system and wants the mechanic overhauled anyway.
There will be two wars in New Eden, one on the ground and one in space and the two will have only superficial connection with no real impact on each other. As they currently envision the mechanics we have no impact on Eve Pl income, on FW Sov and we can't handle OB or logistics in house. I believe I speak for us all when I say *YAWN*
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carl von oppenheimer
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
158
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Posted - 2012.08.04 17:44:00 -
[96] - Quote
I think the problem is that no one has figured on how tie dust with eve sov and then roll it back in the worst case scenario. As for PI it's the only way to produce POS fuel but problem is that it can be done on any planet with same costs, only difference is taxes from NPC custom offices and planet yield.
Now making your own POS fuel saves you a lot of money, yes, but the cost of moving your stuff somewhere else is just too small (bout 30-50mil in all depending) to be bothered if some dusters happen to take over your planet. This issue has to be addressed because as it is the situation now is like: Dusters take planet and ... what ? Raise taxes ? force you to take some other planet ? Would you even care if it was your planet ? If the planets would have some meaning in Eve, something that would make you feel that "this is my planet, my corps planet, my alliance planet" things would be very different.
I don't know we need some creative thinking for this and dust needs to be put as permanent part of PI somehow.
Or perhaps we would first need to transform PI on EvE side to something that is more then just "something you have to do to keep your POS running". |
Maken Tosch
263
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Posted - 2012.08.04 17:52:00 -
[97] - Quote
@Ryan
Don't get CCP wrong. They want full interaction between both games. It's just that they want to do it slowly. If you read the CSM Minutes, you will see that they intend to include null-sec interaction later on. They are just doing it in steps. They have always done this with Eve Online for years and they will surely do the same thing to Dust. Let's also not forget that CCP is a small company and they don't have vast resources like Infinity Ward, EA Games, Epic Games, Blizzard, etc. to get everything done all at once. |
ryan valentine
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
15
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Posted - 2012.08.04 17:59:00 -
[98] - Quote
To be honest, I always sort of thought the current Pl mechanics were a place-holder for the coming Dust mechanics, wishful thinking I guess. Does anyone in Eve really rely on Pl for their income? On the forums no one seems to feel Pl is a source of scads of filthy lucre but then I have never tried it. Do you think there would be out-cry if it was given over to the Dusters? To me that seems like the logical step or else the Dusters will be reliant on the Eve corps for EVERYTHING. Might not be a factor in Sov but it would at least give the Dusters control of a resource (logical control since its planetary) and a bargaining chip in relation to the Eve corps and industrialists.
I may jump over to the Eve forums and ask if they would all rage-quit if they lost access to Pl accept through Dust assets. Would that be an NDA violation? |
ryan valentine
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
15
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Posted - 2012.08.04 18:06:00 -
[99] - Quote
@Tosch
I agree and am thinking in relation to FW here primarily because it has no bearing on Null. It is exactly your point regarding resources that has me concerned, Any of those companies can produce a better balanced shooter as straight up shooters go. My concern is that the real selling point, the cross-platform OneWar/OneUniverse will be nowhere to be seen for possibly years.
I read the minutes (I wish you lot would stop telling me to do that), my concern is that even when we get to Null we STILL HAVE NO IMPACT ON SOV. That's my main concern. My contention is that FW is the perfect place to test run Sov impact because we are screwing about with the NPC empire borders and not the player empires of Null. Make sense? |
mandrill the red
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
21
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Posted - 2012.08.04 18:33:00 -
[100] - Quote
Yeah, people are going to call bull**** on CCP and walk away if what they promised isn't delivered on release. They've made so much of the link between the two games that for it not to be there in the form promised will damage them and Dust in general |
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Nos Faust
BurgezzE.T.F
37
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Posted - 2012.08.04 23:40:00 -
[101] - Quote
@ryan, did you ask the EVE players about PI? l hopped on their forums to see but ended up getting sidetracked reading other things and didn't see it if it's there. l'm following this thread because it's interesting and even though l don't play EVE l am trying to learn and understand how it all works and how the EVE community thinks and operates. |
ryan valentine
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
15
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Posted - 2012.08.04 23:51:00 -
[102] - Quote
@Nos
Ya .. only one reply so far. I will update when I have some meaningful feedback. The one response I got was that some of the Pl specialized industrialists would most likely drop a load in the trousers immediately but that Pl being a resource that had to actually be fought over (its currently a literally zero-risk game) would drive the prices of the goods up on the market creating a meaningful income source for Dusters and any Eve industrial corps that allied with them.
I bumped the thread to the top again. I'll drop some quotes and responses when I get some. (I think they assumed I was trolling.) |
Nos Faust
BurgezzE.T.F
37
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Posted - 2012.08.05 00:02:00 -
[103] - Quote
That's fine l'll keep checking back off and on. On a side note: the EVE forums = Bizarro DUST 514 forums, funny to see but kinda creepy too |
Maken Tosch
263
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Posted - 2012.08.05 00:17:00 -
[104] - Quote
@Ryan
I would actually support the idea of making PI materials worth fighting over. Of course, the resources are thin and limited in high-sec space but are plentiful in low-sec space where most faction warfare occurs and even more abundant in null-sec. But the impact of PI as a resource is something that is left to be pondered.
As of right now, you need PI materials to create a single POS. I tried it myself using multiple alts and I discovered just living on PI alone can still bring in enough materials to make a POS with the exception of having to buy about a few units of Capital Construction Parts that hardly cost me several million ISK. The trick is managing those colonies to ensure that you have a steady supply chain. Quite a ton of math is involved here. On top of that, you have to be hauling boat loads of materials from one planet to another.
A seasoned industrialist like myself would most likely setup a colony on every planet type needed to harvest all the materials required as creating a single POS literally requires constructing almost every P4 material in the list. I would then dedicate a single planet for refining said materials (one more production planet if needed).
Not only that, as an industrialist living in low-sec, I would also have to worry about outlaws looking for me as I am hauling P4 parts worth millions of ISK.
Then you have to take into account that NPC customs offices in low-sec can be destroyed and replaced with POCOS (player-owned customs offices) and then tax the user of the colonies a lot of ISK or set the tax to 0% if the colony is theirs. If PI can be affected by Dust in terms of production efficiency at least in low-sec at least, then the Dust mercs will have a bargaining chip because industrial corps will always worry about efficiency especially if the mercs control enough planets.
But that is still to be confirmed or determined. Even then, balance must be found. Thankfully, Eve Online has the singularity test server so that everyone can help test it out before it goes live. A couple of years ago, CCP hinted that PI would one day include the ability to allow one PI colony to attack a another, but I think CCP jokingly mentioned the infamous word "SOON(tm)" in their statement. Sooooooooo............ >_> |
ryan valentine
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
15
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Posted - 2012.08.05 00:36:00 -
[105] - Quote
@Tosch
The feedback is welcome .. as I said I have never tried it. I take it those materials are used in Capital Ship production and the building of Outposts as well? |
Maken Tosch
263
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Posted - 2012.08.05 01:51:00 -
[106] - Quote
ryan valentine wrote:@Tosch
The feedback is welcome .. as I said I have never tried it. I take it those materials are used in Capital Ship production and the building of Outposts as well?
Capital Ships are entirely different beast... literally. Capital ships need materials gathered from moons for actual production.
So far, they seem to impact both POS and Outpost production and a little bit of POS fuels. According to the Evelopedia:
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Amarr_Control_Tower_Small_Blueprint <---BPO for a small Caldari Control Tower
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Gallente_Administrative_Outpost_Platform_Blueprint <---BPO Gallente Administrative Outpost Platform (an egg)
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Item_Database:Blueprints:Components:Station_Components <---BPOs for Station Components (notice the parts needed - PI products).
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Item_Database:Manufacture_&_Research:Materials:Planetary_Materials <---List of Planetary Materials by type.
So far, it doesn't seem that anyone can acquire these materials in any other way besides PI. If they did, it was long gone since the Tyrannis Expansion. |
carl von oppenheimer
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
158
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Posted - 2012.08.05 06:36:00 -
[107] - Quote
Umm no my dears capital ships are made from basic materials as they are still a tech I ships despite their advanced nature. Jump freighters however are tech II ships and thus require tech II capital components, it's not an accident that JF cost you 8 billions a piece.
Trick with capitals and especially parts is that they take 5-8000m3 of space to move around and since a the biggest industrial barring freighters has only 30k of space and you need 100's of parts you can imagine the hurdle of moving those parts around unless you build and gather resources on site. Capital ship modules are of same size and the capital corp bay is 10k which sometimes makes me bang my head in the wall when I need to move the base for my carrier, only grace is that I have a Rorqual as well and an alliance with entire fleet of JF's.
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ryan valentine
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
15
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Posted - 2012.08.05 18:01:00 -
[108] - Quote
Relevant thread I posted to Eve Science and Industry forum can be found here ---> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=140457&find=unread
To my surprise .. no one really seems all that ruffled by the idea of losing absolute control over Pl and several undeniable points are made regarding why Dust assets couldn't control the whole of it that I personally hadn't thought of. For instance all of the different planetary types are required (which we won't have access too) as well as there may not be enough of us to meet the demands of the market at the outset. They all seemed rather jazzed by the idea of it being something to fight over a bit though.
As an aside, is anyone else thinking about stockpiling starbase components in light of the upcoming changes? This guy smells filthy lucre. |
Rasatsu
Much Crying Old Experts
437
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Posted - 2012.08.05 19:05:00 -
[109] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:A seasoned industrialist like myself would most likely setup a colony on every planet type needed to harvest all the materials required as creating a single POS literally requires constructing almost every P4 material in the list. I would then dedicate a single planet for refining said materials (one more production planet if needed). You don't sound much like a seasoned industrialist then... Cause if you were seasoned you wouldn't be setting up resource gathering of disparate raw materials.
There's a limit on the number of planets each character can use, and logistics is a large part of the time spent on PI. Each command center has CPU/PG limits that means it is most efficient to produce P0->P1 (in the case of a planet with good deposits of a single resource) or P0->P2 (when you have decent deposits of two resources that make something).
When looking at logistics beyond that you have several barriers that induce ISK and opportunity cost. Those include taxes on export from planets, moving cargo between planets and between alts.
So if you are producing P4 components you likely aren't using the most resource rich planets in the area you operate, and/or dedicate some planets to P0->P3 production which severely reduces efficiency due to CPU/PG being dedicated to the last step of the conversion and having long logistics chains on a planet is expensive. |
ryan valentine
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
15
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Posted - 2012.08.05 19:35:00 -
[110] - Quote
@Rasatsu
I worked as a full-time blockade-runner before I went to FW to sharpen my pvp skillz so I realize that haulage can induce a fairly significant increase on your baseline. I assumed most industry corps engaged in Pl would also own the POCO's to negate taxation issues. Can you tell me if there is a spot in the production chain where it would make sense to insert Dust assets or am I just totally out of my depth here? |
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Maken Tosch
263
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Posted - 2012.08.06 01:03:00 -
[111] - Quote
Rasatsu wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:A seasoned industrialist like myself would most likely setup a colony on every planet type needed to harvest all the materials required as creating a single POS literally requires constructing almost every P4 material in the list. I would then dedicate a single planet for refining said materials (one more production planet if needed). You don't sound much like a seasoned industrialist then... Cause if you were seasoned you wouldn't be setting up resource gathering of disparate raw materials. There's a limit on the number of planets each character can use, and logistics is a large part of the time spent on PI. Each command center has CPU/PG limits that means it is most efficient to produce P0->P1 (in the case of a planet with good deposits of a single resource) or P0->P2 (when you have decent deposits of two resources that make something). When looking at logistics beyond that you have several barriers that induce ISK and opportunity cost. Those include taxes on export from planets, moving cargo between planets and between alts. So if you are producing P4 components you likely aren't using the most resource rich planets in the area you operate, and/or dedicate some planets to P0->P3 production which severely reduces efficiency due to CPU/PG being dedicated to the last step of the conversion and having long logistics chains on a planet is expensive.
Wrong. I am a seasoned industrialist. As for the limit, that doesn't matter to me when I have two accounts with three ALTs each and each alt has at least five planets to manage. I have pulled it off with success in high security space. I quit because it was tiresome hauling materials and calculating needed materials. |
Maken Tosch
263
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Posted - 2012.08.06 01:07:00 -
[112] - Quote
PS: not to mention having to log into six different ALTs two or three times a day. |
Mr Funless
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
191
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Posted - 2012.08.06 01:11:00 -
[113] - Quote
I quit PI because it's too much bloody clicking. My mouse is very happy I don't do it anymore. |
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