DUST Search - CSM meeting minutes; Summer of 2012

Rhadiem wrote:

ryan valentine wrote:

Just to be clear .. this isn't a 'I will rage-quit' thing.

Its a .. there is no meta-game if we can't employ Dusters through Eve Corps thing. I am heartened that the CSM argued for some degree of integration and disheartened that CCP wasn't even considering it for release. Ya'll should be as well. Even in FW it will stand to reason that their will be industrial benefits to holding Planets (they said as much in the minutes). A streamlined, Duster only Corp is not meta-game. The impact of Dusters on Sov can be field tested in FW given the recent Inferno changes. I want to assure my Corp-mates of good gear and a happy home, I want to assure my Faction (I have no issue with us beginning there) that my Corp is highly regarded by being able to pay my mates well for being awesome.

As a Duster (regardless of how elaborate or not Corp structure is) would you rather work at a loss for an npc corp or get paid a million isk per match by me? Whether those benefits can only be gained in the beginning through FW and later through null Sov makes no difference to me personally. That's all I am saying.

Simple corps doesn't solve this problem because its a Dusters on one side and Eve corps on the other deal. Why would anyone contract a Duster only Corp as the mechanics stand? If anyone can tell me a reason for an Eve Corp to pay a decent payout to a Dust corp that would be otherwise forced to fight for npc's pittance as it stands I will concede that I missed the point and happily go get some beer.

All I am arguing for here is a collective voice saying the only real option is the 'simplified corp division'. Its not an argument against Duster-only corps but some superficial integration will be necessary or else the Dusters are doomed to poverty in New Eden. Eve industrialists will hose them on asset prices, logistic support and orbital bombardment because they have no reason not to. Dusters will grind npc's because they will quickly realize fighting the faction wars (while fun) is a net loss game. If I can at least hire some Dusters and assure them of OB's, gear brought in from the affordable sources and other forms of logistical support then we go tthe beginnings of a meta-game without really ******* with the Eve economy or crashing the Sov alliances over-night and breaking New Eden.

I see the logic in caution but also realize that without a meta-game Dust is a care-bear npc grind for profit.

I'm pretty sure the end-game vision is not a care-bear NPC faction war game. But if you have EVE ISK burning a hole in your pocket, I'm sure I could come up with a nice scam for you to accept. ;)


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ryan valentine Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 15	Posted - 2012.08.02 22:39:00 - [1] - Quote Me and my brother have a year old, two-man Eve corp that exists solely to fund our Dust514 war effort and add incentives to join our Corp. These announcements really disappoint me to be honest. Don't misunderstand, I love CCP and understand that Dust will never really be 'complete' in the way other games are BUT I HAVE ALREADY GAVE YOU A TON OF MONEY IN ANTICIPATION OF THIS. The 'District Control' stuff not coming online until the kinks are worked out on SiSi makes total sense but not allowing me to consolidate my assets between the two platforms is lame. This was the whole selling point for Dust, just to remind you. Lets not pretend like an additional tab under corp management is some monumental undertaking. The fluid exchange of isk and assets between Eve and Dust was the whole basis of the meta-game and don't give me that crap about Eve players having godlike wealth being detrimental to Dust. Postponing financial integration will create an issue here where there doesn't need to be one. Not allowing Dusters to impact on Sov assures a gigantic disparity in isk distribution, why pay premiums for Dusters if they have no impact on anything. Allowing Dusters to play at least some role on Sov issues assures Dusters of large boat loads of isk and will quickly equalize the financial disparity. Whereas forcing us to fight for npc payouts for two years will make us all so comparatively broke ass we will end up the pawns of the established Eve Corps. The only way we are going to see premium payouts is going to be through player contracts. There isn't a mercenary Corp in Eve that will undock for less than a billion isk, many many many times what the best paying npc contracts pay. And that's the minimum. Not too mention that we can't even grind for easy money since we will more or less always be fighting other players with varying degrees of success. Even as things stand now in the beta it is possible to win your fight and lose money, forcing us to continue in this vein for another 2 years is preposterous. (Also, I have my securities license and understand the mechanics of free-markets. Your forcing us into the video-game equivalent of sweat-shop labour on behalf of Faction Warfare.)
ryan valentine Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 15	Posted - 2012.08.02 22:52:00 - [2] - Quote Nos Faust wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Mind you these minutes are a bit old, alot can change at ccp development in the past months. That's what l'm thinking too Like the player bounty system? We don't have representation on the CSM but we can present an angry mob with pitch-forks (or at the very least some reasonable suggestions and expectations). It took them almost a decade to balance the ships. Lets at least try to make a case for some degree of integration here, I believe that CCP cares about what we have to say but they aren't going to be able to hear our thoughts if were all too busy sucking their dicks.
ryan valentine Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 15	Posted - 2012.08.02 22:55:00 - [3] - Quote Mr Funless wrote: ryan valentine wrote: (Also, I have my securities license and understand the mechanics of free-markets. Your forcing us into the video-game equivalent of sweat-shop labour on behalf of Faction Warfare.) [insert RP stuff] DUST soldiers were created to be pawns of the elite. Welcome to New Eden. Anywho, I don't believe someone receiving contracts (DUSTers) should be making more than people giving them out (EVEers). Agreed .. but my argument here isn't that we should be making more, its that there should be an incentive to contract us. Whether they are FW or Sov holding null Corps.
ryan valentine Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 15	Posted - 2012.08.02 23:49:00 - [4] - Quote Rhadiem wrote: ryan valentine wrote: Me and my brother have a year old, two-man Eve corp that exists solely to fund our Dust514 war effort and add incentives to join our Corp. These announcements really disappoint me to be honest. Don't misunderstand, I love CCP and understand that Dust will never really be 'complete' in the way other games are BUT I HAVE ALREADY GAVE YOU A TON OF MONEY IN ANTICIPATION OF THIS. No disrespect to you and your corp, but 2 accounts going for a year and even adding on that 2 merc packs might pay for a handful of dev hours after overhead. In their eyes, or any business owner's eyes, this is not a ton of money. Some thoughts from 2 months or so ago are not the entirety of Dust's development cycle. If successful, Dust could be around for 5-10+ years. Obviously, my sub isn't solely funding Dusts development cycle. I don't play monthly sub games because they are a sad waste of money with the exception of Eve which consistently rewards me for that monthly investment with tons of new content added regularly at no extra cost. Customer satisfaction is pretty important to any business owner, player engagement is pretty important to any video game company and CCP obviously understands that better than most companies in the gaming industry. The point to that statement was that I spent lots of my money, so that I would be able to pay a collection of Dusters well to fight with me on behalf of my Corp. A Corp that I have worked to optimize on behalf of the Dust514 gameplay. I doubt very much that I am the only person who has invested time and money into the meta-game. So having the only feedback we have gotten thus far regarding how Dust will function at launch essentially deny any meta-game at all is a real disappointment. While I will wait to light up my torch and grab my pitchfork as well, you will have to pardon me for expressing my dismay at the news. In New Eden, profit is King. As it stands it would make more sense for a Duster to grind npc drones with no significant financial loss than it would to pick up my Mass Driver and lob grenades at the Amarr Militia. One is pure profit, the other is at least occasional losses and consistently lower payouts because of asset loss. They will create a new care-bear scourge. Especially in light of the fact that they keep pointing out that payouts on matches will decrease and asset cost will increase. I am seriously the only person that see's a problem here?
ryan valentine Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 15	Posted - 2012.08.03 00:36:00 - [5] - Quote Just to be clear .. this isn't a 'I will rage-quit' thing. Its a .. there is no meta-game if we can't employ Dusters through Eve Corps thing. I am heartened that the CSM argued for some degree of integration and disheartened that CCP wasn't even considering it for release. Ya'll should be as well. Even in FW it will stand to reason that their will be industrial benefits to holding Planets (they said as much in the minutes). A streamlined, Duster only Corp is not meta-game. The impact of Dusters on Sov can be field tested in FW given the recent Inferno changes. I want to assure my Corp-mates of good gear and a happy home, I want to assure my Faction (I have no issue with us beginning there) that my Corp is highly regarded by being able to pay my mates well for being awesome. As a Duster (regardless of how elaborate or not Corp structure is) would you rather work at a loss for an npc corp or get paid a million isk per match by me? Whether those benefits can only be gained in the beginning through FW and later through null Sov makes no difference to me personally. That's all I am saying. Simple corps doesn't solve this problem because its a Dusters on one side and Eve corps on the other deal. Why would anyone contract a Duster only Corp as the mechanics stand? If anyone can tell me a reason for an Eve Corp to pay a decent payout to a Dust corp that would be otherwise forced to fight for npc's pittance as it stands I will concede that I missed the point and happily go get some beer. All I am arguing for here is a collective voice saying the only real option is the 'simplified corp division'. Its not an argument against Duster-only corps but some superficial integration will be necessary or else the Dusters are doomed to poverty in New Eden. Eve industrialists will hose them on asset prices, logistic support and orbital bombardment because they have no reason not to. Dusters will grind npc's because they will quickly realize fighting the faction wars (while fun) is a net loss game. If I can at least hire some Dusters and assure them of OB's, gear brought in from the affordable sources and other forms of logistical support then we go tthe beginnings of a meta-game without really ******* with the Eve economy or crashing the Sov alliances over-night and breaking New Eden. I see the logic in caution but also realize that without a meta-game Dust is a care-bear npc grind for profit.
ryan valentine Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 15	Posted - 2012.08.03 00:42:00 - [6] - Quote Actually, I am going to go get some beer anyways. But I will be back!!!!!!
ryan valentine Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 15	Posted - 2012.08.03 01:56:00 - [7] - Quote I get the feeling we will find out when they move us to the test server. Fingers crossed I guess!
ryan valentine Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 15	Posted - 2012.08.03 16:45:00 - [8] - Quote Rasatsu wrote: ryan valentine wrote: In New Eden, profit is King. As it stands it would make more sense for a Duster to grind npc drones with no significant financial loss than it would to pick up my Mass Driver and lob grenades at the Amarr Militia. One is pure profit, the other is at least occasional losses and consistently lower payouts because of asset loss. They will create a new care-bear scourge. Especially in light of the fact that they keep pointing out that payouts on matches will decrease and asset cost will increase. I am seriously the only person that see's a problem here? Mining in a rokh is also pure profit with no loss ever. Kinda my whole point.
ryan valentine Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 15	Posted - 2012.08.03 16:47:00 - [9] - Quote Rhadiem wrote: ryan valentine wrote: Just to be clear .. this isn't a 'I will rage-quit' thing. Its a .. there is no meta-game if we can't employ Dusters through Eve Corps thing. I am heartened that the CSM argued for some degree of integration and disheartened that CCP wasn't even considering it for release. Ya'll should be as well. Even in FW it will stand to reason that their will be industrial benefits to holding Planets (they said as much in the minutes). A streamlined, Duster only Corp is not meta-game. The impact of Dusters on Sov can be field tested in FW given the recent Inferno changes. I want to assure my Corp-mates of good gear and a happy home, I want to assure my Faction (I have no issue with us beginning there) that my Corp is highly regarded by being able to pay my mates well for being awesome. As a Duster (regardless of how elaborate or not Corp structure is) would you rather work at a loss for an npc corp or get paid a million isk per match by me? Whether those benefits can only be gained in the beginning through FW and later through null Sov makes no difference to me personally. That's all I am saying. Simple corps doesn't solve this problem because its a Dusters on one side and Eve corps on the other deal. Why would anyone contract a Duster only Corp as the mechanics stand? If anyone can tell me a reason for an Eve Corp to pay a decent payout to a Dust corp that would be otherwise forced to fight for npc's pittance as it stands I will concede that I missed the point and happily go get some beer. All I am arguing for here is a collective voice saying the only real option is the 'simplified corp division'. Its not an argument against Duster-only corps but some superficial integration will be necessary or else the Dusters are doomed to poverty in New Eden. Eve industrialists will hose them on asset prices, logistic support and orbital bombardment because they have no reason not to. Dusters will grind npc's because they will quickly realize fighting the faction wars (while fun) is a net loss game. If I can at least hire some Dusters and assure them of OB's, gear brought in from the affordable sources and other forms of logistical support then we go tthe beginnings of a meta-game without really ******* with the Eve economy or crashing the Sov alliances over-night and breaking New Eden. I see the logic in caution but also realize that without a meta-game Dust is a care-bear npc grind for profit. I'm pretty sure the end-game vision is not a care-bear NPC faction war game. But if you have EVE ISK burning a hole in your pocket, I'm sure I could come up with a nice scam for you to accept. ;) Condescension duly noted. Seriously, if you can see all the angles maybe just answer the question in the post? Why contract a Duster as the mechanics stand?
ryan valentine Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 15	Posted - 2012.08.03 16:55:00 - [10] - Quote carl von oppenheimer wrote: Now everyone should remember that hose minutes are from may that's 2 months ago and a lot things could have changed for dust in that time. edit: Or June depending how you look at things. Ya'll keep saying this, have you read something I haven't? As far as I know (and I will contentedly accept correction) this is the first information we have received on what the Devs envision for Dust at launch and to be frank I doubt very much that has changed much over a two month period. Gun-balance can change a lot in two months, vehicle balance can change a lot in two months but no actually, the whole of a games development arc can't. When Eve launched you could start your own Corp at launch. You could hold Sov at launch. A Dust Corp will be simpler in structure than an Eve Corp anyway, why would we need Starbase Managers for instance? Console players are not all a collection of retards and the inference that we are all too stupid to understand is offensive and frankly ridiculous.

ryan valentine Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 15	Posted - 2012.08.03 17:31:00 - [11] - Quote Traynor Youngs wrote: Khal Photo wrote: It's hard to believe that new player would not be able understand EVE corp management. I have played eve for four years. I have managed corps in high sec, null sec, and wormholes. I have been doing corp management for 3 of the 4 years I have played eve. I do not understand Eves corp management system. So yea, new players to DUST will certainly NOT understand the corp management system. If you have managed to run Corps through every permutation of the Eve universe without understanding the UI you're actually arguing that it is a relatively simple thing to use. Dust Corps require the following to function at launch: 1. Director Role 2. Asset access permissions 3. Wallet access permissions 4. Squads (if you want to get a little fancy) Honestly, what else do you require?
ryan valentine Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 15	Posted - 2012.08.03 17:37:00 - [12] - Quote Mr Funless wrote: I really wouldn't want a DUSTer to have EVE wallet/assets access or a director role. That's a great way of some random console kiddy messing up a corp with trillions of assets. Then don't give it to them, how is that any different from a newly hired pilot in Eve? Its a freaking box you either check or don't. Anyway, my meaning was that a Duster Corp, run from the console doesn't require more than that, at least at launch.
ryan valentine Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 15	Posted - 2012.08.03 17:52:00 - [13] - Quote Mr Funless wrote: ryan valentine wrote: [quote=Mr Funless]Anyway, my meaning was that a Duster Corp, run from the console doesn't require more than that, at least at launch. Well that makes more sense then. Having EVEs corp management UI in a clean console format is a daunting task itself. If EVE/DUST really are going to share corps eventually, imo the roles should be split. On the EVE side, DUST section should have 1. a separate corp wallet 2. separate director roles (can't touch anything in EVE) This way a DUSTer can't screw up an EVE corp. This was what I meant down-thread regarding a simplified Corp Division (with an accompanying Wallet Division). I apologize if I came off a bit harshly there .. kinda feel like I am running at a wall. Should get some more coffee in me.
ryan valentine Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 15	Posted - 2012.08.03 19:37:00 - [14] - Quote Traynor Youngs wrote: After reading the entire document, I can say that there are a few places that I have concerns. 1. Corps. They need to be in, in full force, from launch. If that is technically unfeasible, then launch should be pushed back. There is absolutely NO reason why there should not be very very robust social/group tools in DUST from day 1. 2. Market interaction. I understand that balancing the costs means that some drop suits would cost as much or more than Eve frigates and that seems kind of silly when looked at logically. The converse is that the average Eve player has a couple of BILLION isk laying around at any given time (in either liquid or real assets) and can go out and spend a few hours running missions in empire and raise a couple hundred million in short order. This presents a problem. There are two possible solutions, make Dust gear as expensive as Eve ships (thus creating the silly situation where an assault rifle costs as much as a frigate or cruiser) or tax the crap out of money moving from eve to dust (thus restricting the market interaction between the games). I believe that any arbitrary rules that restrict gameplay are bad. But it would also be bad for Eve players to gentrify DUST such that its unplayable if you don't have an Eve patron. I don't have an easy solution for this problem. Perhaps I will start a new thread to discuss the implications of various solutions. 3. Lack of an interaction between DUST and Planetary Interaction in Eve. THe only way that planets make money (the driving force in Eve) is through PI, if DUST cannot affect PI, then it cannot affect the bottom line, and DUST will be ultimately a side mini metagame for Eve players. Trying to bandage this by having DUST 0.0 combat be "additive" to Sov warfare is poor design. These are especially troubling concerns because I had thought that they would have been ironed out by now. We are likely one more beta build away from launch and some of the most important things that set DUST apart from other FPS games are going to go live with lackluster versions of what they should be. I understand that CCP are able and willing to take the long view and iterate going forward after launch, I would simply prefer a more focused and streamlined launch of a product that is dead center where CCP aimed at it being, instead of the typical "Jesus Feature" to be iterated further I am with you on 1. and 3. but I disagree a bit regarding your points on market interaction. While a dropsuit costing as much a frigate is a bit of a logic hole, is it really a gameplay problem? If you can afford it, if the price points are in keeping with what a Duster is earning then does it really matter? If a dropsuit is comparatively worthless then there is no reason for Eve industrialists to produce any of our gear. If a stack of 20 fetches the same price as a single frigate then competition between industrialists will keep the market flush and the gear affordable. If our gear is cheap and worthless we will be buying from npc sources forever. Also, if our most expensive gear costs as much as the cheapest stuff in Eve that doesn't really even seem that illogical to me. A new Eve player requires a 'patron' in the form of an established Corp .. I have no problem with that being true for Dusters or fledgling Duster-only Corps as well.
ryan valentine Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 15	Posted - 2012.08.03 19:41:00 - [15] - Quote carl von oppenheimer wrote: ryan valentine wrote: When Eve launched you could start your own Corp at launch. You could hold Sov at launch. A Dust Corp will be simpler in structure than an Eve Corp anyway, why would we need Starbase Managers for instance? Console players are not all a collection of retards and the inference that we are all too stupid to understand is offensive and frankly ridiculous. What I mean is that CCP might still change their mind about the matter before launch and no EvE didn't had alliances from the beginning, we didn't had null sec either or sovereignty for that matter, we also didn't had capital ships or mining vessels and a battleship was something to drool over back then. We need a corp interaction with EvE even if it would work as nothing more then having public a chat channel in EvE but it would be at least something. My mistake .. I was reading back through the history of the Eve expansions on wiki and it seemed to imply that Sov wars broke out pretty quickly. Apologies for the misinformation. I am guessing then, that the Corp management UI was also relatively simple back then as well? I feel the arguments regarding the UI are a bit disingenuous since it has evolved into 'Empire Management' over the years, which is understandably more complex than running a simple player organization.
ryan valentine Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 15	Posted - 2012.08.03 21:29:00 - [16] - Quote I am keeping this on the main page.
ryan valentine Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 15	Posted - 2012.08.03 22:06:00 - [17] - Quote I agree Tosch .. entirely. It is my hope that since the Corp tab is there on our menu they have realized what a mistake it would be to give us nothing. As I said it was dismaying to hear that they weren't even considering it as recently as two months ago. What are your thoughts on Dusters having no impact at all on Sov (even within the FW systems which has no real impact on the player alliances)? I think that's bs myself.
ryan valentine Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 15	Posted - 2012.08.04 17:30:00 - [18] - Quote Thanks for clearing that Oppenheimer .. now that you mention it I remember reading on the forums about the butt-pain caused by the old sov system. I still think it's total horse-shyte that our actions as Dusters have no impact on Sov whatsoever .. I feel thoroughly deceived by CCP's whole One Universe One War thing. This is very much two wars to my view, no matter how well the ground pounders do it changes nothing in the overall landscape and right now in Eve Pl (while an easy, passive income) is the least profitable undertaking in the game. Will the null sec Alliances care if you control all the planets in one of their systems? Why should they? And ya, I understand the need for caution in implementation but seriously, if we are all starting in FW what really stands to be lost? I moved back from Null when Inferno launched because it seemed pretty obvious that that's where Dust would be happening. In FW as it currently stands the Sov alignment of a system is a minor inconvenience to the opposing side. No alliances will fall, no player corps with years of investment will be run out of their homes. Also, everyone there hates the plex system of turning a system and wants the mechanic overhauled anyway. There will be two wars in New Eden, one on the ground and one in space and the two will have only superficial connection with no real impact on each other. As they currently envision the mechanics we have no impact on Eve Pl income, on FW Sov and we can't handle OB or logistics in house. I believe I speak for us all when I say YAWN
ryan valentine Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 15	Posted - 2012.08.04 17:59:00 - [19] - Quote To be honest, I always sort of thought the current Pl mechanics were a place-holder for the coming Dust mechanics, wishful thinking I guess. Does anyone in Eve really rely on Pl for their income? On the forums no one seems to feel Pl is a source of scads of filthy lucre but then I have never tried it. Do you think there would be out-cry if it was given over to the Dusters? To me that seems like the logical step or else the Dusters will be reliant on the Eve corps for EVERYTHING. Might not be a factor in Sov but it would at least give the Dusters control of a resource (logical control since its planetary) and a bargaining chip in relation to the Eve corps and industrialists. I may jump over to the Eve forums and ask if they would all rage-quit if they lost access to Pl accept through Dust assets. Would that be an NDA violation?
ryan valentine Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 15	Posted - 2012.08.04 18:06:00 - [20] - Quote @Tosch I agree and am thinking in relation to FW here primarily because it has no bearing on Null. It is exactly your point regarding resources that has me concerned, Any of those companies can produce a better balanced shooter as straight up shooters go. My concern is that the real selling point, the cross-platform OneWar/OneUniverse will be nowhere to be seen for possibly years. I read the minutes (I wish you lot would stop telling me to do that), my concern is that even when we get to Null we STILL HAVE NO IMPACT ON SOV. That's my main concern. My contention is that FW is the perfect place to test run Sov impact because we are screwing about with the NPC empire borders and not the player empires of Null. Make sense?

ryan valentine Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 15	Posted - 2012.08.04 23:51:00 - [21] - Quote @Nos Ya .. only one reply so far. I will update when I have some meaningful feedback. The one response I got was that some of the Pl specialized industrialists would most likely drop a load in the trousers immediately but that Pl being a resource that had to actually be fought over (its currently a literally zero-risk game) would drive the prices of the goods up on the market creating a meaningful income source for Dusters and any Eve industrial corps that allied with them. I bumped the thread to the top again. I'll drop some quotes and responses when I get some. (I think they assumed I was trolling.)
ryan valentine Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 15	Posted - 2012.08.05 00:36:00 - [22] - Quote @Tosch The feedback is welcome .. as I said I have never tried it. I take it those materials are used in Capital Ship production and the building of Outposts as well?
ryan valentine Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 15	Posted - 2012.08.05 18:01:00 - [23] - Quote Relevant thread I posted to Eve Science and Industry forum can be found here ---> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=140457&find=unread To my surprise .. no one really seems all that ruffled by the idea of losing absolute control over Pl and several undeniable points are made regarding why Dust assets couldn't control the whole of it that I personally hadn't thought of. For instance all of the different planetary types are required (which we won't have access too) as well as there may not be enough of us to meet the demands of the market at the outset. They all seemed rather jazzed by the idea of it being something to fight over a bit though. As an aside, is anyone else thinking about stockpiling starbase components in light of the upcoming changes? This guy smells filthy lucre.
ryan valentine Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 15	Posted - 2012.08.05 19:35:00 - [24] - Quote @Rasatsu I worked as a full-time blockade-runner before I went to FW to sharpen my pvp skillz so I realize that haulage can induce a fairly significant increase on your baseline. I assumed most industry corps engaged in Pl would also own the POCO's to negate taxation issues. Can you tell me if there is a spot in the production chain where it would make sense to insert Dust assets or am I just totally out of my depth here?