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Mobius Wyvern Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 8005	Posted - 2016.05.11 11:30:00 - [31] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: My replies are underlined in the quote below. Derrith Erador wrote: Okay, I know I'm going to get a lot of flak for being this guy, but from what I'm seeing, Nova is headed for disaster. I also foresee that I'm going to be called... whatever derogatory term groundies have for pilots, as my main grievances are, obviously, vehicles, or lack thereof. I'll first start off with non vehicle stuff, and go straight to the suits: 1) Not much variety really: So I'll be honest, I may have just read the wording the wrong way on this one. But if I am reading this correctly, then without further ado: The way I read it, it states that people will have to constantly play the same role to receive the benefits and reap the whole rewards of constantly playing it, to a point. [...] From what I understood, there will still be freedom of choice with weapons. Just imagine how Splatoon for the WiiU deals with progression for its clothing items and picture that being applied towards weapons as well. I know it's oversimplifying it but that's the best comparison I can come up with and so far the setup still allows for freedom. It doesn't lock you into a certain role. You're just expanding it based on how often you use it. That's how I understand it. I could be wrong though. 2) Vehicles: I'm going to be honest again, hearing that we're not getting to be in Nova at launch was quite insulting to those who devoted time and SP to vehicles and piloting them. [...] I have read a handful of recent articles covering project nova which is detailed in the link below. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=227484&find=unread So far, NOWHERE did it state that the game will not come with vehicles at launch. You, like some others I have seen, are overreacting based on a tech demo that everyone should already know by now based on the articles that the game is not finished yet. Hell, it hasn't even been green lit yet let alone gone into alpha testing. So please stop jumping to conclusions. You're just making up facts that don't exist. Just because CCP has not mentioned vehicles yet it doesn't mean they will definitely not include them at launch. So unless you can prove to everyone here right now that CCP explicitly states that vehicles will not be included at launch I suggest you stop parroting that rumor mill. Now onto the solutions of this crap: [...] Based on how you overreacted over vehicles, I can't take your solutions seriously. Actually, in the interview he did after the presentation at FanFest, CCP Rattati personally said that vehicles would not be in the game at launch. That part isn't speculation. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Slayer Deathbringer Planetary Response Organisation FACTION WARFARE ALLIANCE 103	Posted - 2016.05.11 12:06:00 - [32] - Quote LOOKMOM NOHANDS wrote: Saying not much variety with nothing but the words from a few people that played a small test version and a couple of of dev interviews may be jumping the gun a bit. Just because it takes some time to skill up a role does not mean you can not skill up multiple roles. At least this way you cant refuse to use something until you have 100% maxed it out while using something else. Having little or no SP allocation to be done manually and naturally growing in the role you enjoy sounds like a great concept to me. I am more than happy vehicles are gone. They were a blight on the game just because CCP never figured out what force multiplier means. " 1 No I think being forced to use a crappy gun in order to use a decent one is a stupid concept maybe having skilling up as something to make it cost less would be appropriate so if you want to go straight to proto it will take longer than using the weapon to get it to proto but not drastically less like instead of taking 1 month of active SP for complete non-use to get to proto and 2 days of active use it would be like 3 weeks non-use to one week of use for proto maybe having it be harder to use just active sp for proficiency past 1 but very fast with active use "It's not my fault that you lost a 1 mill isk suit to a 1k isk forge gun"
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 22456	Posted - 2016.05.11 12:16:00 - [33] - Quote Slayer Deathbringer wrote: LOOKMOM NOHANDS wrote: Saying not much variety with nothing but the words from a few people that played a small test version and a couple of of dev interviews may be jumping the gun a bit. Just because it takes some time to skill up a role does not mean you can not skill up multiple roles. At least this way you cant refuse to use something until you have 100% maxed it out while using something else. Having little or no SP allocation to be done manually and naturally growing in the role you enjoy sounds like a great concept to me. I am more than happy vehicles are gone. They were a blight on the game just because CCP never figured out what force multiplier means. " 1 No I think being forced to use a crappy gun in order to use a decent one is a stupid concept maybe having skilling up as something to make it cost less would be appropriate so if you want to go straight to proto it will take longer than using the weapon to get it to proto but not drastically less like instead of taking 1 month of active SP for complete non-use to get to proto and 2 days of active use it would be like 3 weeks non-use to one week of use for proto maybe having it be harder to use just active sp for proficiency past 1 but very fast with active use That's more or less how to works in every game dude. To get the good stuff you have to use the not so good stuff. Waves that dye the land gold. Blessed breath to nurture life in a land of wheat. A path the Sef descend drawn in ash.
DUST Fiend 18288	Posted - 2016.05.11 12:18:00 - [34] - Quote At this wait I'm just waiting to see CCPs ethereal "plans" actually manifest into reality. I'm like the poster boy for bashing on this project so I try to leave it at that. Lord of all things salty, purveyor of gloomish doom and naysayer extraordinaire.
Marston VC SVER True Blood RUST415 1853	Posted - 2016.05.11 12:22:00 - [35] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: Agreed. Forcing a player to "main" a role just to be able to play it right when they need it removes essential freedom from the game. I'm not really sure how requiring a player to actually play a role in order to level it up is removing freedom. You can still skill your character into anything you want, you just like....actually have to actually play that role. To me that makes far more sense than "Weel I've been fighting as a sentinel for this whole time and never touched a logi suit...but now I'll just spend all my SP on logi ** and now I can use the best equipment in the general despite literally never using it before." What happens to players when their role gets nerfed? Tough luck, I guess the last month you spent soley playing it was a waste. Oh wait, if only we had a system where we could save SP and be able to quickly change into a new role. Listen, I understand that it sounds good to "spec up what you use" but all its going to do is annoy the out of players. Seriously, you want to get people to quit? Make it so that they waste their time on something. World of tanks is a perfect example of how annoying this type of stupid system is. You want to drive the tier 8 Indian panzer tank medium tank? Well guess what, you have to grind through the crappy light tank line in order to get it, including the tier 7 light tank nicknamed by the community the "awful Panther" becauseeeeeeeeee it was generally considered awful. Only to then get a patch later that completely removed the awful Panther and rendered my grind through it completely wasted. OR the fact that some tanks force you to unlock pretty much useless modules before you can move onto the next tank. Only to then have the tank you got get slammed with the nerf bat. This is the type of thing that will happen in nova under this type of system. You'll ** a whole lot of people off when the old system was completely fine the way it was. I know some people said it encouraged flavor of the month. To that I say "so what?", towards the end of dust ccp more or less had the balance down pretty well. It's not like one specific set up was the best at everything. Who cares if people are able to quickly change roles? And just because they can doesn't mean they'll be proficient at it. Proficiency in anything comes with real world practice. Just because I had a maxed out forge gun doesn't mean I was good at using it, it just meant that I wasn't a completely useless sack of meat when a tank or ads came around. Marston VC, STB Director
Marston VC SVER True Blood RUST415 1853	Posted - 2016.05.11 12:33:00 - [36] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Slayer Deathbringer wrote: LOOKMOM NOHANDS wrote: Saying not much variety with nothing but the words from a few people that played a small test version and a couple of of dev interviews may be jumping the gun a bit. Just because it takes some time to skill up a role does not mean you can not skill up multiple roles. At least this way you cant refuse to use something until you have 100% maxed it out while using something else. Having little or no SP allocation to be done manually and naturally growing in the role you enjoy sounds like a great concept to me. I am more than happy vehicles are gone. They were a blight on the game just because CCP never figured out what force multiplier means. " 1 No I think being forced to use a crappy gun in order to use a decent one is a stupid concept maybe having skilling up as something to make it cost less would be appropriate so if you want to go straight to proto it will take longer than using the weapon to get it to proto but not drastically less like instead of taking 1 month of active SP for complete non-use to get to proto and 2 days of active use it would be like 3 weeks non-use to one week of use for proto maybe having it be harder to use just active sp for proficiency past 1 but very fast with active use That's more or less how to works in every game dude. To get the good stuff you have to use the not so good stuff. I hate this sort of mentality. "Everyone else does it so we should too" that's not true. Dust didn't do that lol. and even so, why does that sound like a good idea to anyone???? How is the new player experience going to be if people are forced to play through crap to get to something decent? That sounds like a recipe for destroying the player base again. Nothing turns a new player off more then getting sent into a game with militia gear and getting stomped by players who already have the good stuff unlocked. At least with dust a new player could quit for two months, come back with a boatload of passive SP and emediately jump into a proto suit/gun. But in this new type of system a new player will quit and just never come back simply because of the grind it'll take for them to get to a respectable set up. The best part is going to be when you have dedicated players who grind through this maze of bs anyway, only to have their role get nerf batted and have to go back to square one in order to find a new role. I mean literally square one. In dust, they might nerf your proto logi class and prompt you to want to skill into something else. But at least you still had a proto logi suit to play and save SP in. I mean, a nerfed proto suit will still be better then any basic frame suit. In this new system, every time you want to change roles, you'll have to start back in the militia/basic frame suit and completely not use any of the better stuff you spent so much time unlocking in the other role. And personally I think that's stupid Marston VC, STB Director
Slayer Deathbringer Planetary Response Organisation FACTION WARFARE ALLIANCE 103	Posted - 2016.05.11 12:59:00 - [37] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: [quote=LOOKMOM NOHANDS][quote=Mobius Wyvern] As to what you said about AV weapons, very early on CCP stated their intent to set up Assault suits to carry 2 Light weapons specifically so that you could fit AV weapons on your normal suit as well as a rifle of your choice,. well then vanguards should have 3 light weapon slots and some type of bonus against vehicles and AV on top of the general damage bonus so we can have a special niche role of being the 2nd best Av and best killer of AV as well for example " Vanguard bonus: 5% to damage against vehicles and Anti-vehicle(has at least one weapon considered to be effective against vehicles except flux nades and maybe an extra 2% per level for each additional AV weapon so a vanguard would get a 35% bonus in damage against a sentinel with an AHMG and AV grenades when maxed out in skill) Gallente Vanguard bonus: current galmando bonus maybe higher" "It's not my fault that you lost a 1 mill isk suit to a 1k isk forge gun"
Mobius Wyvern Fatal Absolution Bleeding Sun Conglomerate 8005	Posted - 2016.05.11 13:02:00 - [38] - Quote Slayer Deathbringer wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: [quote=LOOKMOM NOHANDS][quote=Mobius Wyvern] As to what you said about AV weapons, very early on CCP stated their intent to set up Assault suits to carry 2 Light weapons specifically so that you could fit AV weapons on your normal suit as well as a rifle of your choice,. well then vanguards should have 3 light weapon slots and some type of bonus against vehicles and AV on top of the general damage bonus so we can have a special niche role of being the 2nd best Av and best killer of AV as well for example " Vanguard bonus: 5% to damage against vehicles and Anti-vehicle(has at least one weapon considered to be effective against vehicles except flux nades and maybe an extra 2% per level for each additional AV weapon so a vanguard would get a 35% bonus in damage against a sentinel with an AHMG and AV grenades when maxed out in skill) Gallente Vanguard bonus: current galmando bonus maybe higher" What is a Vanguard? Also, I think talking bonuses is a bit premature since we don't even know if we'll have a level-based SP system in the next game or not. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 8185	Posted - 2016.05.11 15:01:00 - [39] - Quote Marston VC wrote: True Adamance wrote: Slayer Deathbringer wrote: LOOKMOM NOHANDS wrote: Saying not much variety with nothing but the words from a few people that played a small test version and a couple of of dev interviews may be jumping the gun a bit. Just because it takes some time to skill up a role does not mean you can not skill up multiple roles. At least this way you cant refuse to use something until you have 100% maxed it out while using something else. Having little or no SP allocation to be done manually and naturally growing in the role you enjoy sounds like a great concept to me. I am more than happy vehicles are gone. They were a blight on the game just because CCP never figured out what force multiplier means. " 1 No I think being forced to use a crappy gun in order to use a decent one is a stupid concept maybe having skilling up as something to make it cost less would be appropriate so if you want to go straight to proto it will take longer than using the weapon to get it to proto but not drastically less like instead of taking 1 month of active SP for complete non-use to get to proto and 2 days of active use it would be like 3 weeks non-use to one week of use for proto maybe having it be harder to use just active sp for proficiency past 1 but very fast with active use That's more or less how to works in every game dude. To get the good stuff you have to use the not so good stuff. I hate this sort of mentality. "Everyone else does it so we should too" that's not true. Dust didn't do that lol. and even so, why does that sound like a good idea to anyone???? How is the new player experience going to be if people are forced to play through crap to get to something decent? That sounds like a recipe for destroying the player base again. Nothing turns a new player off more then getting sent into a game with militia gear and getting stomped by players who already have the good stuff unlocked. At least with dust a new player could quit for two months, come back with a boatload of passive SP and emediately jump into a proto suit/gun. But in this new type of system a new player will quit and just never come back simply because of the grind it'll take for them to get to a respectable set up. The best part is going to be when you have dedicated players who grind through this maze of bs anyway, only to have their role get nerf batted and have to go back to square one in order to find a new role. I mean literally square one. In dust, they might nerf your proto logi class and prompt you to want to skill into something else. But at least you still had a proto logi suit to play and save SP in. I mean, a nerfed proto suit will still be better then any basic frame suit. In this new system, every time you want to change roles, you'll have to start back in the militia/basic frame suit and completely not use any of the better stuff you spent so much time unlocking in the other role. And personally I think that's stupid Well typically speaking, a role is nerfed if it is OP. Are you worried about people having their crutch taken away and then not allowing them to jump to the second most OP thing instantly? And then passive SP? "having a rough time? Just stop playing the game for two months and come back or instant gratification that you did absolutely nothing to earn!" Is that really a good argument? And yes, every time you want to change roles you'll have to start from scratch. I didn't work as a civil engineer for years then decide to switch to solar design and expect to be a master electrician overnight. I had to start at nothing and work my way up. That's how how learning something new works. Not to mention having to start from the bottom up in a new role actually helps NPE because veterans can't sit comfortable at the top tier and freely switch into other top tier roles endlessly. At some point they'll have to get off their throne and plow the fields again every once in a while. EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
LOOKMOM NOHANDS 1024	Posted - 2016.05.11 20:41:00 - [40] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Slayer Deathbringer wrote: LOOKMOM NOHANDS wrote: Saying not much variety with nothing but the words from a few people that played a small test version and a couple of of dev interviews may be jumping the gun a bit. Just because it takes some time to skill up a role does not mean you can not skill up multiple roles. At least this way you cant refuse to use something until you have 100% maxed it out while using something else. Having little or no SP allocation to be done manually and naturally growing in the role you enjoy sounds like a great concept to me. I am more than happy vehicles are gone. They were a blight on the game just because CCP never figured out what force multiplier means. " 1 No I think being forced to use a crappy gun in order to use a decent one is a stupid concept maybe having skilling up as something to make it cost less would be appropriate so if you want to go straight to proto it will take longer than using the weapon to get it to proto but not drastically less like instead of taking 1 month of active SP for complete non-use to get to proto and 2 days of active use it would be like 3 weeks non-use to one week of use for proto maybe having it be harder to use just active sp for proficiency past 1 but very fast with active use That's more or less how to works in every game dude. To get the good stuff you have to use the not so good stuff. Exactly. Dust is the only game I know of where you can run logi all day and magically become a bad ass heavy or assault or whatever other completely different unrelated role. Sure the concept was fun but it creates proto stomping and hurts the development of players who have not skilled into a specific proto suit that generates lots of extra SP to be applied to other suits. There is also greater monetization in selling boosters that only apply to one suit and multiply the experience gained while using that suit.

Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 4178	Posted - 2016.05.11 21:41:00 - [41] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: I have read a handful of recent articles covering project nova which is detailed in the link below. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=227484&find=unread So far, NOWHERE did it state that the game will not come with vehicles at launch. You, like some others I have seen, are overreacting based on a tech demo that everyone should already know by now based on the articles that the game is not finished yet. Hell, it hasn't even been green lit yet let alone gone into alpha testing. So please stop jumping to conclusions. You're just making up facts that don't exist. Just because CCP has not mentioned vehicles yet it doesn't mean they will definitely not include them at launch. So unless you can prove to everyone here right now that CCP explicitly states that vehicles will not be included at launch I suggest you stop parroting that rumor mill. Based on how you overreacted over vehicles, I can't take your solutions seriously. "Vehicles, a crucial aspect of Dust 514, will also be missing from Project Nova, which will instead focus entirely on infantry combat. Though +ürnason admits that there might be room to include vehicles in the future, he says their presence in Dust 514 often did more harm than good with all of the balancing issues they created." https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/04/25/project-nova-eve-online/ The link in which I found it. There will be no vehicles at release but the possibility at a later date is not off of the table. GÇ£WeGÇÖre not planning any vehicles for the first release; itGÇÖs the same philosophy that weGÇÖre approaching the rest of the game with that weGÇÖre not going to do something if we canGÇÖt do it well. You add complexity when you are capable of adding complexity.GÇ¥ http://biomassed.net/2016/04/24/what-we-know-about-project-nova-so-far/ Second link. I had to snippet a bit of the post, but I think I got the main stuff down. Anyway, my point, through all my admitted rage, was not that we were included in the launch of Nova, but the fact that the only way we have to possibly play Nova in our favorite role is based on a "maybe". Put yourself in a pilots shoes for a moment, if you were told that you would have to wait until later to enjoy (different from play) the successor to a game you spent years on, and even then, without a guarantee that your favorite role is in it, you'd be rather pissed as well. 99% of what Derrith says is stupidity. -D3lta Blitzkrieg Bittervet ADS pilot, redheads are hot.
DUST Fiend 18290	Posted - 2016.05.11 22:05:00 - [42] - Quote Derrith Erador wrote: Anyway, my point, through all my admitted rage, was not that we were included in the launch of Nova, but the fact that the only way we have to possibly play Nova in our favorite role is based on a "maybe". Put yourself in a pilots shoes for a moment, if you were told that you would have to wait until later to enjoy (different from play) the successor to a game you spent years on, and even then, without a guarantee that your favorite role is in it, you'd be rather pissed as well. This combines with my rage at the continuation of a small team with minimal resources and well, bitterness barely covers it :/ I guess I'm just pretty worn down from SOON(tm) Lord of all things salty, purveyor of gloomish doom and naysayer extraordinaire.
LOOKMOM NOHANDS 1024	Posted - 2016.05.11 22:36:00 - [43] - Quote Derrith Erador wrote: Anyway, my point, through all my admitted rage, was not that we were included in the launch of Nova, but the fact that the only way we have to possibly play Nova in our favorite role is based on a "maybe". Put yourself in a pilots shoes for a moment, if you were told that you would have to wait until later to enjoy (different from play) the successor to a game you spent years on, and even then, without a guarantee that your favorite role is in it, you'd be rather pissed as well. What part of Dust is dead and Nova is a new game are you missing? There is no "we" because you are talking about a group of people on a game that will be totally gone in a couple of weeks. There are no vehicle operators in Nova and obviously will not be at launch. If you don't like it don't play it. Vehicles all but wasted an incredible amount of development time on Dust for what always ended up pissing off one side or another and are in no way a required aspect for a FPS so I can completely agree with Rattati's decision there. Were vehicles fun? Hell yea they were. But vehicles not only affect balancing and resource use but also completely change how maps need to be designed to accommodate them which ends up negatively affecting actual shooter game play. If you don't believe me just look at how stupidly big our maps were just for a total of 32 people making vehicles totally essential at the start of matches and in the event you had no alternate deployment closer to the fight. Go play world of tanks and cry that you don't have a god mode there.
DUST Fiend 18290	Posted - 2016.05.11 22:39:00 - [44] - Quote It's always fun watching people who can't kill vehicles get happy at the thought of COD 514 Lord of all things salty, purveyor of gloomish doom and naysayer extraordinaire.
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 15468	Posted - 2016.05.11 22:58:00 - [45] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: It's always fun watching people who can't kill vehicles get happy at the thought of COD 514 This is precisely the problem. A small subset of players, who enjoyed the fact their role was on the enjoyable end of over performance, feels that their right to play their role trumps the majority of others. V/AV was never balanced. Trying to cram it into a game with limited resources is foolish. Rattati is trying to make a balanced, playable, fun game, with limited resources. Its understandable to be angry. Its not understandable to be irrational. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
DUST Fiend 18290	Posted - 2016.05.11 23:22:00 - [46] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: project with limited resources And here is the primary problem. We can react however we care to, for some of us the only unique and memorable aspect of the game was that it was a combined arms game, it's not our fault CCP pulled the resources required to adequately program and balance that aspect. Then to compound issues, they use an untrained unpaid focus group to attempt to glean balance issues, leading to the endless run around we had. It's just sad to be fed yet another maybe while we sit on our hands and pray Nova isn't just a dumbed down shooter with an EVE skin. Double jump. Double kill. The mainstream is strong in this one. Lord of all things salty, purveyor of gloomish doom and naysayer extraordinaire.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 13425	Posted - 2016.05.11 23:27:00 - [47] - Quote Derrith Erador wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: I have read a handful of recent articles covering project nova which is detailed in the link below. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=227484&find=unread So far, NOWHERE did it state that the game will not come with vehicles at launch. You, like some others I have seen, are overreacting based on a tech demo that everyone should already know by now based on the articles that the game is not finished yet. Hell, it hasn't even been green lit yet let alone gone into alpha testing. So please stop jumping to conclusions. You're just making up facts that don't exist. Just because CCP has not mentioned vehicles yet it doesn't mean they will definitely not include them at launch. So unless you can prove to everyone here right now that CCP explicitly states that vehicles will not be included at launch I suggest you stop parroting that rumor mill. Based on how you overreacted over vehicles, I can't take your solutions seriously. "Vehicles, a crucial aspect of Dust 514, will also be missing from Project Nova, which will instead focus entirely on infantry combat. Though +ürnason admits that there might be room to include vehicles in the future, he says their presence in Dust 514 often did more harm than good with all of the balancing issues they created." https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/04/25/project-nova-eve-online/ The link in which I found it. There will be no vehicles at release but the possibility at a later date is not off of the table. GÇ£WeGÇÖre not planning any vehicles for the first release; itGÇÖs the same philosophy that weGÇÖre approaching the rest of the game with that weGÇÖre not going to do something if we canGÇÖt do it well. You add complexity when you are capable of adding complexity.GÇ¥ http://biomassed.net/2016/04/24/what-we-know-about-project-nova-so-far/ Second link. I had to snippet a bit of the post, but I think I got the main stuff down. Anyway, my point, through all my admitted rage, was not that we were included in the launch of Nova, but the fact that the only way we have to possibly play Nova in our favorite role is based on a "maybe". Put yourself in a pilots shoes for a moment, if you were told that you would have to wait until later to enjoy (different from play) the successor to a game you spent years on, and even then, without a guarantee that your favorite role is in it, you'd be rather pissed as well. First off... holy **** how did I miss that bit of information? I'm starting to wonder if I'm going to need prescription glasses at this rate. Second, it is extremely rare for me to see someone actually take up my challenge of backing up their claims like you did. The majority of the time I get replies like "I'm not going to look it up for you. Google it yourself" or they just change subjects or ignore my request altogether. You, on the other hand, actually backed up your claim with actual sources. Bravo. I will now take your solutions that you posted seriously. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
LOOKMOM NOHANDS 1025	Posted - 2016.05.11 23:45:00 - [48] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: It's always fun watching people who can't kill vehicles get happy at the thought of COD 514 Or maybe no one wants to play a shooter where they have to throw away the ability to kill infantry and run around chasing some loser that's going to run into the red line to protect his precious k/d. Whats more fun is watching the scrubs with no gun game cry because they wont be able to keep their precious god mode into a totally new game. Rattati's plans are sending the tears flowing from the scrubs that killed Dust 514 so I am more sold on the concept than ever. Want to proto stomp? Too bad you get to play in a ****** suit to skill up that suit. Want to call in god mode and force several people to have to work together and kill just you weakening the rest of their team? Too bad go play something else. Many of these people will quickly argue its CCPs fault for designing it that way and now that they are fixing it they are crying even more so screw em. I can only hope that Rattati stays steady on this course and forces them to not even consider joining Nova.
Marston VC SVER True Blood RUST415 1854	Posted - 2016.05.12 00:38:00 - [49] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: [quote=Marston VC][quote=True Adamance][quote=Slayer Deathbringer][quote=LOOKMOM NOHANDS]Saying not much variety with nothing but the words from a few people that played a small test version and a couple of of dev interviews may be jumping the gun a bit. Just because it takes some time to skill up a role does not mean you can not skill up multiple roles. At least this way you cant refuse to use something until you have 100% maxed it out while using something else. Having little or no SP allocation to be done manually and naturally growing in the role you enjoy sounds like a great concept to me..... Well typically speaking, a role is nerfed if it is OP. Are you worried about people having their crutch taken away and then not allowing them to jump to the second most OP thing instantly? 1.) I'd argue against that "typically" statement 2.) Im not worried about "crutches" being taken away, I'm worried about player retention and the new player experience. Both of which are things ccp is notoriously bad at. More specifically, I'm worried about transitioning from class to class and from the new player experience to someone who's actually competitive. And then passive SP? "having a rough time? Just stop playing the game for two months and come back or instant gratification that you did absolutely nothing to earn!" Is that really a good argument? Well since you gave approximately zero substance in rebuttal to that point I'd say "yes" it is a good argument. You even contradicted your own statement. The fact a potential player WAITED two months to then come back and grab a specific role is far more then doing "absolutely nothing" they paid by waiting! FFS this is a video game! Having to wait two months for anything is a long time! They do this is in eve too with the passive sp system they have and eve online is one of the best mmos out there..... And yes, every time you want to change roles you'll have to start from scratch. I didn't work as a civil engineer for years then decide to switch to solar design and expect to be a master electrician overnight. I had to start at nothing and work my way up. That's how how learning something new works. Good thing we're playing a video game so we have the potential to avoid all that rubbish. "That's how learning something works"? Are you kidding me??? It's a video game! Your not actually learning how to operate combat rifles! Your literally grinding points in order to unlock the ability to use them! The discussion were having here is about "how" this grind works/should work. Saying "well the way it works in real life is crappy so it should also be that way in a video game" is literally a non-answer. You, in one paragraph, did exactly what I made the original comment for. "in real life it really blows that I spent 8 years specializing as a civil engineer and for one reason or another decided to become an electrician and had to waste another 6 years before I got the permit to legally call myself an electrician so therefore the same bs I had to deal with in real life should be mimicked in this video game" is all I read right there. If that actually sounds like a pleasing game mechanic to you then..... Well anyway. I don't have hard proof of it but I'd guess that most people arent playing video games for the sake of mimicking real life...... Not to mention having to start from the bottom up in a new role actually helps NPE because veterans can't sit comfortable at the top tier and freely switch into other top tier roles endlessly. At some point they'll have to get off their throne and plow the fields again every once in a while. Any benefit your theory might have is negated by the overall negative this type of skill progression system brings. The main one being that it's an annoying system. It's annoying because it makes it hard on new players, forcing them to grind, and it's annoying on vets too because they too have to grind if they do want to become more flexible. Grinding is the most annoying aspect of any mmo. It's one of the single largest factor that burns people put. And grinding exactly what this type of system will create. Eve online does not have this and the game has been running strong for 13 years. Dust was a hybrid that I liked a lot because you could always choose to grind and get things faster, or not play at all and come back a few months later to try something new. There were a lot of things wrong with dust. Their skill progress system was pretty close to the bottom in terms of priority issues. The only negative it had at all was how it was presented to new players in that it could be confusing, and the fact that it does allow for easier FOTM play. But I never had a problem with FOTM anyway. Super competitive players are always going to strive for the the most op weapon. FOTM is a result of those people, not the system itself. The only difference changing the skill system will have on it will be the time it takes for these people to switch from flavor to flavor being a bit longer then before. AT THE EXPENSE of literally everyone else who just wants to play the game normally and are now also forced to grind. Which is bad. Have I mentioned that grinding is bad? Marston VC, STB Director
DUST Fiend 18291	Posted - 2016.05.12 00:39:00 - [50] - Quote LOOKMOM NOHANDS wrote: I can only hope that Rattati stays steady on this course and forces them to not even consider joining Nova. You so hard, shunning players who enjoyed a part of the game that was sold to them from day one. Very badass, such vet, wow, much cool. Also only bads didn't have at least one vehicle friend and some AV, so really only bads got trolled by vehicle users Lord of all things salty, purveyor of gloomish doom and naysayer extraordinaire.

Marston VC SVER True Blood RUST415 1854	Posted - 2016.05.12 00:43:00 - [51] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: It's always fun watching people who can't kill vehicles get happy at the thought of COD 514 FEEL MY OPTIMISM ALREADY Marston VC, STB Director
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 15468	Posted - 2016.05.12 01:04:00 - [52] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: One Eyed King wrote: project with limited resources And here is the primary problem. We can react however we care to, for some of us the only unique and memorable aspect of the game was that it was a combined arms game, it's not our fault CCP pulled the resources required to adequately program and balance that aspect. Then to compound issues, they use an untrained unpaid focus group to attempt to glean balance issues, leading to the endless run around we had. It's just sad to be fed yet another maybe while we sit on our hands and pray Nova isn't just a dumbed down shooter with an EVE skin. Double jump. Double kill. The mainstream is strong in this one. Limited resources is a problem, but it is the reality. I would hardly call a group of PC gamers, dedicated enough to travel to Iceland for Fanfest untrained. And paid or unpaid is irrelevant. The feedback was not about balance or whatnot, but whether it was fundamentally sound, smooth, etc. It was about the foundation of the game, the skeleton of it, and nothing more. That the foundation of it got good reviews is wonderful news. How many times did we complain about all the fundamental aspects of Dust that got in the way of all the unique parts of it? Hit detection issues, poor framerate, falling through maps, all rendered the great aspects of Dust moot. If Dust is to be saved, for the long term, it must rest on a solid foundation. That is the important part first and foremost. I might not even get to play the game for being at this point in time, purely a console gamer, but even I recognize that this is the path that must be taken if I am ever to even have the opportunity to play the game I thought Dust could be. Being negative about the little ember of hope that is Nova will not fan the ember enough to produce flames adequately large to see combined combat. If you ever hope to have a good, viable, long term combined combat game THESE are the steps that must be taken. There are no shortcuts. There is no wand waving. There are no miracles. Be angry. Be frustrated. But be realistic. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 13428	Posted - 2016.05.12 01:25:00 - [53] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: One Eyed King wrote: project with limited resources And here is the primary problem. We can react however we care to, for some of us the only unique and memorable aspect of the game was that it was a combined arms game, it's not our fault CCP pulled the resources required to adequately program and balance that aspect. Then to compound issues, they use an untrained unpaid focus group to attempt to glean balance issues, leading to the endless run around we had. It's just sad to be fed yet another maybe while we sit on our hands and pray Nova isn't just a dumbed down shooter with an EVE skin. Double jump. Double kill. The mainstream is strong in this one. Limited resources is a problem, but it is the reality. I would hardly call a group of PC gamers, dedicated enough to travel to Iceland for Fanfest untrained. And paid or unpaid is irrelevant. The feedback was not about balance or whatnot, but whether it was fundamentally sound, smooth, etc. It was about the foundation of the game, the skeleton of it, and nothing more. That the foundation of it got good reviews is wonderful news. How many times did we complain about all the fundamental aspects of Dust that got in the way of all the unique parts of it? Hit detection issues, poor framerate, falling through maps, all rendered the great aspects of Dust moot. If Dust is to be saved, for the long term, it must rest on a solid foundation. That is the important part first and foremost. I might not even get to play the game for being at this point in time, purely a console gamer, but even I recognize that this is the path that must be taken if I am ever to even have the opportunity to play the game I thought Dust could be. Being negative about the little ember of hope that is Nova will not fan the ember enough to produce flames adequately large to see combined combat. If you ever hope to have a good, viable, long term combined combat game THESE are the steps that must be taken. There are no shortcuts. There is no wand waving. There are no miracles. Be angry. Be frustrated. But be realistic. ^This Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
DUST Fiend 18291	Posted - 2016.05.12 01:51:00 - [54] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: Being negative about the little ember of hope that is Nova will not fan the ember enough to produce flames adequately large to see combined combat. If you ever hope to have a good, viable, long term combined combat game THESE are the steps that must be taken. There are no shortcuts. There is no wand waving. There are no miracles. Be angry. Be frustrated. But be realistic. The question really is though, how long will we continue to wait to see even a glimmer of that original vision? And will it arive before the market is flooded with similar titles? Purely speculation at this point, but I lose faith when Hilmar repeatedly distances himself from the DUST IP and continues to keep resources low. Just because it's a reality doesn't mean we can't be pissed about it, or that we aren't being realistic. It's not incumbent upon us to stoke the flames of enthusiasm for CCP, it's their job to provide exciting and innovative content to get us excited for. I get that they have to build the foundation, that's not my gripe. My gripe is that they're trying to build a foundation with skeleton crew and clay bricks because that's all they've been given after all this time. Really though all the negativity and optimism in the world is entirely pointless if Hilmar ends up canning this project too. You could argue that it's up to us to build that excitement but I'm sorry, people were very clear they wanted Legion or for more to be done with DUST. It was very clear we have a passionate if not dysfunctional community that loves this game on both sides of the aisle. I guess it just boils my blood when Hilmar seemingly refuses to acknowledge the treasure trove he's sitting on as he repeatedly looks like he just caught Ebola whenever DUST is mentioned. Lord of all things salty, purveyor of gloomish doom and naysayer extraordinaire.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 8191	Posted - 2016.05.12 01:53:00 - [55] - Quote Marston, going to try to nto turn this into a massive quote/response thread because they annoy me, so forgive me if I'm unclear or miss a point. I'll start off by saying that I think a large part of this particular issue is tied to personal preference and I fully understand that everyone will not agree with me and that the game is not made specifically for me...so If I don't agree with another player or the way the game is design, that doesn't mean it's inherently wrong, it simply means I don't particularly agree with that aspect. --- SO! Let's take a looksie... So the nerfing bit, I wont argue able to reason behind nerfing because I think there are some really good, and really bad examples of balance choices made and it's not always clear cut. As for new player experience, it's actually rather common for games to require you to play a certain role in order to level it up, and while certaintly not ever game is successful, there are many that are. Either way the existance of such a progression system does not innately create a poor NPE. That being said I don't feel that requiring a player to start from square one when they want to change roles will make the new player experience a bad one. And even in that case, "square one" isn't entirely accurate since non-role specific points such as Electronics, Shields, ect. will most likely be shared between roles. --- I apologize if I wasn't clear the point I was trying to make. I was stating that telling a player "Oh don't worry, just don't play for 2 months and then skill into something new." isn't exactly a good argument to make a player enthusiastic about the game. I'm also not entirely sure how the current system avoids this issue anyways, unless you're reffering to players stockpiling SP to then spend on something else as soon as the current role gets nerfed. In this case, the only real difference is that you grind SP on the current role to spend on a different role, or you grind SP on a different role. If you're grinding to stockpile SP to ultimately spend on something else, it stands to reason that you more or less have nothing else to level up on that role...in which case wouldn't you want to try something different anyways since you ultimately plan to spend the SP on it in the future? --- Now this point is where we clearly differ. I personally find very little accomplishment in switching to something and isntantly being top tier in something. The process of starting from close to nothing and working my way up to the final result is where I get the enjoyment...not in having the final result simply because I spent the time doing something unrelated. If I'm able to seize the final result immediately, it takes the sense of accomplishment out of it for me and thus the overall enjoyment. So while you may think my story or example is stupid, what I was trying to get at is "I'm the kind of person that enjoys starting over and learning something new from the ground up, so this sort of system appeals to me and it is not entirely unrealistic." So while, again, I understand that the game is not specifically designed for me... I'm simply trying to state I personally prefer a system where I have to actually play and earn my progression within a role because I think its far more rewarding overall. EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 8191	Posted - 2016.05.12 01:55:00 - [56] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Really though all the negativity and optimism in the world is entirely pointless if Hilmar ends up canning this project too. You could argue that it's up to us to build that excitement but I'm sorry, people were very clear they wanted Legion or for more to be done with DUST. It was very clear we have a passionate if not dysfunctional community that loves this game on both sides of the aisle. I think we have a very different memory of how the player base reacted to the Legion announcement a Fan Fest 2014 EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
DUST Fiend 18291	Posted - 2016.05.12 02:00:00 - [57] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Really though all the negativity and optimism in the world is entirely pointless if Hilmar ends up canning this project too. You could argue that it's up to us to build that excitement but I'm sorry, people were very clear they wanted Legion or for more to be done with DUST. It was very clear we have a passionate if not dysfunctional community that loves this game on both sides of the aisle. I think we have a very different memory of how the player base reacted to the Legion announcement a Fan Fest 2014 That's because Hilmar all but shut down the game, without releasing anything other than a small video for a game that never came. What really fanned the flames too was players who spent hundreds of dollars to go to fanfest for the next big thing in DUST, only to be told to **** off by Hilmar. PLENTY of people wanted a port, wanted "Phoenix", wanted LongLiveLegion. We had what, two years of that with nothing but balance shuffles while we waited for more info? Yes, people were pissed, because CCP built us up only to tear us down in one of the worst PR blunders I've ever witnessed from a gaming company. The fact that so many stayed past that is testament to how much people love this game, and wanted it to continue. Lord of all things salty, purveyor of gloomish doom and naysayer extraordinaire.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 13430	Posted - 2016.05.12 02:32:00 - [58] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Really though all the negativity and optimism in the world is entirely pointless if Hilmar ends up canning this project too. You could argue that it's up to us to build that excitement but I'm sorry, people were very clear they wanted Legion or for more to be done with DUST. It was very clear we have a passionate if not dysfunctional community that loves this game on both sides of the aisle. I think we have a very different memory of how the player base reacted to the Legion announcement a Fan Fest 2014 That's because Hilmar all but shut down the game, without releasing anything other than a small video for a game that never came. What really fanned the flames too was players who spent hundreds of dollars to go to fanfest for the next big thing in DUST, only to be told to **** off by Hilmar (Rouge?). PLENTY of people wanted a port, wanted "Phoenix", wanted LongLiveLegion. We had what, two years of that with nothing but balance shuffles while we waited for more info? Yes, people were pissed, because CCP built us up only to tear us down in one of the worst PR blunders I've ever witnessed from a gaming company. The fact that so many stayed past that is testament to how much people love this game, and wanted it to continue. We're masochists. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
DUST Fiend 18293	Posted - 2016.05.12 02:33:00 - [59] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: We're masochists. I believe that's been scientifically proven by this point. Lord of all things salty, purveyor of gloomish doom and naysayer extraordinaire.
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 4178	Posted - 2016.05.12 03:01:00 - [60] - Quote LOOKMOM NOHANDS wrote: Derrith Erador wrote: Anyway, my point, through all my admitted rage, was not that we were included in the launch of Nova, but the fact that the only way we have to possibly play Nova in our favorite role is based on a "maybe". Put yourself in a pilots shoes for a moment, if you were told that you would have to wait until later to enjoy (different from play) the successor to a game you spent years on, and even then, without a guarantee that your favorite role is in it, you'd be rather pissed as well. What part of Dust is dead and Nova is a new game are you missing? There is no "we" because you are talking about a group of people on a game that will be totally gone in a couple of weeks. There are no vehicle operators in Nova and obviously will not be at launch. If you don't like it don't play it. Vehicles all but wasted an incredible amount of development time on Dust for what always ended up pissing off one side or another and are in no way a required aspect for a FPS so I can completely agree with Rattati's decision there. Were vehicles fun? Hell yea they were. But vehicles not only affect balancing and resource use but also completely change how maps need to be designed to accommodate them which ends up negatively affecting actual shooter game play. If you don't believe me just look at how stupidly big our maps were just for a total of 32 people making vehicles totally essential at the start of matches and in the event you had no alternate deployment closer to the fight. Go play world of tanks and cry that you don't have a god mode there. I missed none of it. I just don't like the answer given. Before I continue, I'm going to point out a few major flaws in your thought/post process. 1) Your thought process behind vehicles being a waste of space is false, or at least no more true than it would be for any other suits. Case and point, was the commando suit necessary? Not really, an assault or a scout could have done their job of AV in PC. Was it necessary to have a pistol for every race? Again, I don't think so. It was nice, no question, but the game had a possibility of thriving or failing just as much with or without those. So while it may be true that vehicles took up a lot of unnecessary resources, it can be seen that it's no more true for anything infantry related. 2) Vehicles are not a required aspect of an FPS. Were this any other shooter, I would have no good argument, I'll grant that. But this is New Eden, the two sister games to Nova are Eve, and Valkyrie. Both of these games pretty much require you to play in vehicles. You may argue that spaceships and star fighters are not vehicles, but the term vehicle applies to a very broad term, mainly objects used to transports goods or people. Taking this into account, if the plan of CCP is to combine those games, as I recall they've stated, Nova will eventually have to interact with vehicles, albeit from a different game altogether. So in Novas case, that is false. 3) Maps were enlarged to accommodate vehicles. While this may have been CCPs intent, it was not necessary, and to be frank, annoying even to the pilots. Map size and redline has robbed pilots of kills we earned many times over, and saved us when we shouldn't have been saved. I've made threads practically begging CCP to reduce map size/flight ceiling. Vehicles would have thrived just as well on a smaller map. Don't believe me? If you played a PC in a vehicle, and were stationed in the city, all you need to use is the city to be effective, for it has cover, and the city isn't even 20% of the map size in most cases. 4) Pilots wanted god mode. Another falsehood, most of us didn't want that in the slightest. At least not the true ones. We wanted to have balanced and fun fights as much as the enemy. I've personally made many threads regarding vehicle and AV balance, a decent portion which was well received, not all were good ideas, I'll admit. If you wish to have the last word in this, I'll let you have it now. But I won't respond to you after this, it will only devolve into an insult match, and I like to avoid those. 99% of what Derrith says is stupidity. -D3lta Blitzkrieg Bittervet ADS pilot, redheads are hot.



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