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Marston VC
SVER True Blood
RUST415
1853
   |
Posted - 2016.05.11 12:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:
Agreed. Forcing a player to "main" a role just to be able to play it right when they need it removes essential freedom from the game.
I'm not really sure how requiring a player to actually play a role in order to level it up is removing freedom. You can still skill your character into anything you want, you just like....actually have to actually play that role. To me that makes far more sense than "Weel I've been fighting as a sentinel for this whole time and never touched a logi suit...but now I'll just spend all my SP on logi **** and now I can use the best equipment in the general despite literally never using it before."
What happens to players when their role gets nerfed? Tough luck, I guess the last month you spent soley playing it was a waste. Oh wait, if only we had a system where we could save SP and be able to quickly change into a new role. Listen, I understand that it sounds good to "spec up what you use" but all its going to do is annoy the **** out of players. Seriously, you want to get people to quit? Make it so that they waste their time on something.
World of tanks is a perfect example of how annoying this type of stupid system is. You want to drive the tier 8 Indian panzer tank medium tank? Well guess what, you have to grind through the crappy light tank line in order to get it, including the tier 7 light tank nicknamed by the community the "awful Panther" becauseeeeeeeeee it was generally considered awful. Only to then get a patch later that completely removed the awful Panther and rendered my grind through it completely wasted.
OR the fact that some tanks force you to unlock pretty much useless modules before you can move onto the next tank. Only to then have the tank you got get slammed with the nerf bat.
This is the type of thing that will happen in nova under this type of system. You'll **** a whole lot of people off when the old system was completely fine the way it was. I know some people said it encouraged flavor of the month. To that I say "so what?", towards the end of dust ccp more or less had the balance down pretty well. It's not like one specific set up was the best at everything. Who cares if people are able to quickly change roles? And just because they can doesn't mean they'll be proficient at it. Proficiency in anything comes with real world practice. Just because I had a maxed out forge gun doesn't mean I was good at using it, it just meant that I wasn't a completely useless sack of meat when a tank or ads came around.
Marston VC, STB Director
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Marston VC
SVER True Blood
RUST415
1853
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Posted - 2016.05.11 12:33:00 -
[2] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Slayer Deathbringer wrote:LOOKMOM NOHANDS wrote:Saying not much variety with nothing but the words from a few people that played a small test version and a couple of of dev interviews may be jumping the gun a bit. Just because it takes some time to skill up a role does not mean you can not skill up multiple roles. At least this way you cant refuse to use something until you have 100% maxed it out while using something else. Having little or no SP allocation to be done manually and naturally growing in the role you enjoy sounds like a great concept to me.
I am more than happy vehicles are gone. They were a blight on the game just because CCP never figured out what force multiplier means.
" 1 No I think being forced to use a crappy gun in order to use a decent one is a stupid concept maybe having skilling up as something to make it cost less would be appropriate so if you want to go straight to proto it will take longer than using the weapon to get it to proto but not drastically less like instead of taking 1 month of active SP for complete non-use to get to proto and 2 days of active use it would be like 3 weeks non-use to one week of use for proto maybe having it be harder to use just active sp for proficiency past 1 but very fast with active use That's more or less how to works in every game dude. To get the good stuff you have to use the not so good stuff.
I hate this sort of mentality. "Everyone else does it so we should too" that's not true. Dust didn't do that lol. and even so, why does that sound like a good idea to anyone???? How is the new player experience going to be if people are forced to play through crap to get to something decent? That sounds like a recipe for destroying the player base again. Nothing turns a new player off more then getting sent into a game with militia gear and getting stomped by players who already have the good stuff unlocked.
At least with dust a new player could quit for two months, come back with a boatload of passive SP and emediately jump into a proto suit/gun. But in this new type of system a new player will quit and just never come back simply because of the grind it'll take for them to get to a respectable set up.
The best part is going to be when you have dedicated players who grind through this maze of bs anyway, only to have their role get nerf batted and have to go back to square one in order to find a new role. I mean literally square one. In dust, they might nerf your proto logi class and prompt you to want to skill into something else. But at least you still had a proto logi suit to play and save SP in. I mean, a nerfed proto suit will still be better then any basic frame suit. In this new system, every time you want to change roles, you'll have to start back in the militia/basic frame suit and completely not use any of the better stuff you spent so much time unlocking in the other role. And personally I think that's stupid
Marston VC, STB Director
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Marston VC
SVER True Blood
RUST415
1854
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Posted - 2016.05.12 00:38:00 -
[3] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:[quote=Marston VC][quote=True Adamance][quote=Slayer Deathbringer][quote=LOOKMOM NOHANDS]Saying not much variety with nothing but the words from a few people that played a small test version and a couple of of dev interviews may be jumping the gun a bit. Just because it takes some time to skill up a role does not mean you can not skill up multiple roles. At least this way you cant refuse to use something until you have 100% maxed it out while using something else. Having little or no SP allocation to be done manually and naturally growing in the role you enjoy sounds like a great concept to me.....
Well typically speaking, a role is nerfed if it is OP. Are you worried about people having their crutch taken away and then not allowing them to jump to the second most OP thing instantly?
1.) I'd argue against that "typically" statement
2.) Im not worried about "crutches" being taken away, I'm worried about player retention and the new player experience. Both of which are things ccp is notoriously bad at. More specifically, I'm worried about transitioning from class to class and from the new player experience to someone who's actually competitive.
And then passive SP? "having a rough time? Just stop playing the game for two months and come back or instant gratification that you did absolutely nothing to earn!" Is that really a good argument?
Well since you gave approximately zero substance in rebuttal to that point I'd say "yes" it is a good argument. You even contradicted your own statement. The fact a potential player WAITED two months to then come back and grab a specific role is far more then doing "absolutely nothing" they paid by waiting! FFS this is a video game! Having to wait two months for anything is a long time! They do this is in eve too with the passive sp system they have and eve online is one of the best mmos out there.....
And yes, every time you want to change roles you'll have to start from scratch. I didn't work as a civil engineer for years then decide to switch to solar design and expect to be a master electrician overnight. I had to start at nothing and work my way up. That's how how learning something new works.
Good thing we're playing a video game so we have the potential to avoid all that rubbish. "That's how learning something works"? Are you kidding me??? It's a video game! Your not actually learning how to operate combat rifles! Your literally grinding points in order to unlock the ability to use them! The discussion were having here is about "how" this grind works/should work. Saying "well the way it works in real life is crappy so it should also be that way in a video game" is literally a non-answer. You, in one paragraph, did exactly what I made the original comment for. "in real life it really blows that I spent 8 years specializing as a civil engineer and for one reason or another decided to become an electrician and had to waste another 6 years before I got the permit to legally call myself an electrician so therefore the same bs I had to deal with in real life should be mimicked in this video game" is all I read right there. If that actually sounds like a pleasing game mechanic to you then..... Well anyway. I don't have hard proof of it but I'd guess that most people arent playing video games for the sake of mimicking real life......
Not to mention having to start from the bottom up in a new role actually helps NPE because veterans can't sit comfortable at the top tier and freely switch into other top tier roles endlessly. At some point they'll have to get off their throne and plow the fields again every once in a while.
Any benefit your theory might have is negated by the overall negative this type of skill progression system brings. The main one being that it's an annoying system. It's annoying because it makes it hard on new players, forcing them to grind, and it's annoying on vets too because they too have to grind if they do want to become more flexible. Grinding is the most annoying aspect of any mmo. It's one of the single largest factor that burns people put. And grinding exactly what this type of system will create. Eve online does not have this and the game has been running strong for 13 years. Dust was a hybrid that I liked a lot because you could always choose to grind and get things faster, or not play at all and come back a few months later to try something new.
There were a lot of things wrong with dust. Their skill progress system was pretty close to the bottom in terms of priority issues. The only negative it had at all was how it was presented to new players in that it could be confusing, and the fact that it does allow for easier FOTM play. But I never had a problem with FOTM anyway. Super competitive players are always going to strive for the the most op weapon. FOTM is a result of those people, not the system itself. The only difference changing the skill system will have on it will be the time it takes for these people to switch from flavor to flavor being a bit longer then before. AT THE EXPENSE of literally everyone else who just wants to play the game normally and are now also forced to grind. Which is bad. Have I mentioned that grinding is bad?
Marston VC, STB Director
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Marston VC
SVER True Blood
RUST415
1854
|
Posted - 2016.05.12 00:43:00 -
[4] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:It's always fun watching people who can't kill vehicles get happy at the thought of COD 514
FEEL MY OPTIMISM ALREADY
Marston VC, STB Director
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Marston VC
SVER True Blood
RUST415
1854
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Posted - 2016.05.12 07:13:00 -
[5] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Marston, going to try to nto turn this into a massive quote/response thread because they annoy me, so forgive me if I'm unclear or miss a point.
I'll start off by saying that I think a large part of this particular issue is tied to personal preference and I fully understand that everyone will not agree with me and that the game is not made specifically for me...so If I don't agree with another player or the way the game is design, that doesn't mean it's inherently wrong, it simply means I don't particularly agree with that aspect.
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SO! Let's take a looksie...
So the nerfing bit, I wont argue able to reason behind nerfing because I think there are some really good, and really bad examples of balance choices made and it's not always clear cut. As for new player experience, it's actually rather common for games to require you to play a certain role in order to level it up, and while certaintly not ever game is successful, there are many that are. Either way the existance of such a progression system does not innately create a poor NPE.
That being said I don't feel that requiring a player to start from square one when they want to change roles will make the new player experience a bad one. And even in that case, "square one" isn't entirely accurate since non-role specific points such as Electronics, Shields, ect. will most likely be shared between roles.
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I apologize if I wasn't clear the point I was trying to make. I was stating that telling a player "Oh don't worry, just don't play for 2 months and then skill into something new." isn't exactly a good argument to make a player enthusiastic about the game. I'm also not entirely sure how the current system avoids this issue anyways, unless you're reffering to players stockpiling SP to then spend on something else as soon as the current role gets nerfed.
In this case, the only real difference is that you grind SP on the current role to spend on a different role, or you grind SP on a different role. If you're grinding to stockpile SP to ultimately spend on something else, it stands to reason that you more or less have nothing else to level up on that role...in which case wouldn't you want to try something different anyways since you ultimately plan to spend the SP on it in the future?
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Now this point is where we clearly differ. I personally find very little accomplishment in switching to something and isntantly being top tier in something. The process of starting from close to nothing and working my way up to the final result is where I get the enjoyment...not in having the final result simply because I spent the time doing something unrelated. If I'm able to seize the final result immediately, it takes the sense of accomplishment out of it for me and thus the overall enjoyment.
So while you may think my story or example is stupid, what I was trying to get at is "I'm the kind of person that enjoys starting over and learning something new from the ground up, so this sort of system appeals to me and it is not entirely unrealistic." So while, again, I understand that the game is not specifically designed for me... I'm simply trying to state I personally prefer a system where I have to actually play and earn my progression within a role because I think its far more rewarding overall.
And that's the entire confusing part about this. How are they going to deal with the power grid and CPU/other broader skills? The answer is that they're either scrapping them all together, or they're going to have the same old skill system anyway and just make it so that you unlock "proficiency" bonuses through playing roles. Which wouldn't be such a bad thing. I'm not totally against a system like this. I play the crap out of world of tanks. Ill start a new playthroufh on fallout 4 just to get that starting new sensation and trying out a new build. But it's still annoying....... And I think Most people will feel the same way about it. I'll be fine either way, I just think the system they had in dust was superior to what they implied so far.
GRANTED we have no idea how they're going to implement this new system. So much depends on the execution that it's hard to say weather or not it'll be good. Basically, if they do it like battlefield then I'll probably hate the game. If they do it like dust then I'll love it. If it's some sort of compromise that still maintains a fair level of complexity similar to dust then I'll be okay with it. But will just have to wait and see.
Marston VC, STB Director
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