DUST Search - Nova's flaws

Mobius Wyvern wrote:

I think that part of the issue here is somehow defining people who play infantry-only shooters and people who play combined-arms shooters as some kind of completely separate communities with conflicting tastes in games. There were plenty of people who came to Dust from infantry-only shooters and found the combined-arms aspect to enhance the gameplay. I think it quite safe to surmise that when Nova brings vehicles back into the game those same kinds of people will adapt and learn to enjoy them.

Keep in mind also that one of the biggest factors in crafting a game that lasts through the years is a wide variety of experiences. While Nova will start out being infantry-only on ship interiors, even after planets come out there will be people who still like the ship interiors, and both will still be available. That means you keep the people that want an infantry-only experience while also giving a combined-arms experience to the people who are primarily looking for that. As a bonus, the infantry-only people are likely to try out planetary fights when they start wanting a new experience.

Dust 514 was pitched to us in 2012 as eventually having Public Contracts, Faction Warfare, Planetary Conquest, some form of Arena-shooter mode with classic game types from other shooters, and various forms of PvE. Basically, it was supposed to have the same variety of experiences that has allowed EVE Online to be around for 13 years and still be going strong.

However, many of those experiences were not initially part of EVE Online. Sovereignty didn't come in until at least a year after the game released, and Faction Warfare was put in in 2008, five years after the game released. It could be argued that if the CCP of 1999-2000 with their limited team and resources had tried to make EVE Online then with all the features it has now, it probably would have been trapped in development hell for years before eventually being shut down just like Dust 514.

I was one of the people that was worried at the idea of vehicles not being in at first, but when I look at EVE Online as an example, I understand what they're doing. They want to take the slow-and-steady approach that has occasionally been lost but has most of the time been a guiding principle of EVE Online's development.


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Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 4169	Posted - 2016.05.10 04:34:00 - [1] - Quote Okay, I know I'm going to get a lot of flak for being this guy, but from what I'm seeing, Nova is headed for disaster. I also foresee that I'm going to be called... whatever derogatory term groundies have for pilots, as my main grievances are, obviously, vehicles, or lack thereof. I'll first start off with non vehicle stuff, and go straight to the suits: 1) Not much variety really: So I'll be honest, I may have just read the wording the wrong way on this one. But if I am reading this correctly, then without further ado: The way I read it, it states that people will have to constantly play the same role to receive the benefits and reap the whole rewards of constantly playing it, to a point. The problem with this is that it locks people in for that set class, giving them little variety to respond to various situations that may demand a different class. Solution: Keep in mind I probably read this wrong, but my idea is to give the player a choice between three separate suits, modules, and weapons (sidearm and main separate). Three was honestly a random number, but continuing... if the mercenary wants to suddenly change one of his classes, he can choose to eradicate one of his classes, and start anew with his new suit. Another idea I'd like to see is extra bonuses to using suit/weapon/module friendly fits that fit the race you're going for. Example: Amarr fat boi gets bonuses to lasers, and armor plates, and the mods/weapons get minor bonuses in turn. 2) Vehicles: I'm going to be honest again, hearing that we're not getting to be in Nova at launch was quite insulting to those who devoted time and SP to vehicles and piloting them. Along with the dedicated AV players as well, because without vehicles, why are you even here?! And to be blunt, the fact that I'm sober is the one thing keeping me from saying quite unspeakable things to you. In order to properly show you what a big mistake removing us, the necessary evil, is, I'm going to have to list all the reasons why it is a terrible idea to push us aside/save us for later: 1) Loss of playerbase: Without vehicles and AV, and no connection to EVE, we bittervet devoted pilots and demolition experts have no reason to play your game, and likely never will. 2) attracting different playerbase: Again, without capsuleers, and pilots/bloweruppers, you will attract a certain playerbase centered around ground combat, I call them COD players. And in the event that you do add us to the fold later, you will ** off not only your current playerbase with that crap, but you will off the vehicle/AV community even more, basically telling us that only now are we worth your time, which is even more insulting, I see this happening for two reasons: A) You take too much time. It's no secret that you guys took way too long to make dust even remotely playable, and by then it was too late. I predict about a year long wait for vehicles to make their dramatic entry, IF we get it. And by then, we'll have forgotten about Nova, and will move on to other things, like having a life. B) Your overly cautious approach. Ironically enough, the lessons you learned during the Rouge Wedding may actually cause Nova to fail. While I see it's hard to balance vehicles, stating this in some nerd newspaper will only solidify the opinion of your playerbase that your weak, and unable to commit. 3) Lack of originality: Without vehicles and our eternal rivals, AV, Nova will be a pretty game, and probably a good one. But it will fall right smack dab in the middle of "every lobby shooter ever". People will see this, get bored and leave, thus you're left with a tiny playerbase, who are COD fans, and will abandon you once Call of Booty, Bad Cops 4 comes out, or their mom buys them the latest console. 4) Bittervet anti-community. A lot of pilots will become immensely butthurt, to the point of playing your game, just to convince people to quit. Granted, you'll already face this, but it will become larger without us. 5) Lack of satisfaction: Any AV/vehicle pilot will tell you the best moments of dust was when they blew up a whole crapload of vehicles, or barely escaping a hellzone of enemy fire by the skin of their teeth. This type of satisfaction is hard to top in any other game, because we cost a lot of money. Blowing us up is the reason some people still play. Now onto the solutions of this crap: 1) Take the hard road, balance vehicles and keep us in Nova. It'll be a headache, but you actually have a few hidden aces, a CPM board with more than half a brain, and quite a few butthurt vehicle/AV players who are still willing to debate and give multiple feedback threads involving the balance. These two weapons are more useful than any software you can buy. All you have to do is use your hearing aids, and LISTEN TO US! 2) Don't bother with vehicles. Don't insult us by adding us in later. If you want this to be a pure ground shooter, make it that. You're liable to ** off more people with us in the picture later, than now. If you take this road, you'd also be best prepared to link Nova up to EVE and Valkyrie, and fucking quickly, you'll lose the ADHD players fast if you don't set Nova apart. 3) If you chose option 2, then you need to provide a place where we devoted pilots can get in the EVE universe. I speak of Valkyrie! By connecting Valkyrie to Nova, and to EVE, you can, in theory, successfully merge these three games together if done right. You'd have to add in ship types, of course. My idea is to have space fighters, atmospheric fighter (support for Nova fighters in FW/PC), and hybrid fighters, able to traverse both systems with ease. Also, don't forget about tanks and ground vehicles, which should stay in Nova. Anyway, enough of my rant, it's taking too much. 99% of what Derrith says is stupidity. -D3lta Blitzkrieg Bittervet ADS pilot, redheads are hot.
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 4174	Posted - 2016.05.10 13:55:00 - [2] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: I think that part of the issue here is somehow defining people who play infantry-only shooters and people who play combined-arms shooters as some kind of completely separate communities with conflicting tastes in games. There were plenty of people who came to Dust from infantry-only shooters and found the combined-arms aspect to enhance the gameplay. I think it quite safe to surmise that when Nova brings vehicles back into the game those same kinds of people will adapt and learn to enjoy them. Keep in mind also that one of the biggest factors in crafting a game that lasts through the years is a wide variety of experiences. While Nova will start out being infantry-only on ship interiors, even after planets come out there will be people who still like the ship interiors, and both will still be available. That means you keep the people that want an infantry-only experience while also giving a combined-arms experience to the people who are primarily looking for that. As a bonus, the infantry-only people are likely to try out planetary fights when they start wanting a new experience. Dust 514 was pitched to us in 2012 as eventually having Public Contracts, Faction Warfare, Planetary Conquest, some form of Arena-shooter mode with classic game types from other shooters, and various forms of PvE. Basically, it was supposed to have the same variety of experiences that has allowed EVE Online to be around for 13 years and still be going strong. However, many of those experiences were not initially part of EVE Online. Sovereignty didn't come in until at least a year after the game released, and Faction Warfare was put in in 2008, five years after the game released. It could be argued that if the CCP of 1999-2000 with their limited team and resources had tried to make EVE Online then with all the features it has now, it probably would have been trapped in development hell for years before eventually being shut down just like Dust 514. I was one of the people that was worried at the idea of vehicles not being in at first, but when I look at EVE Online as an example, I understand what they're doing. They want to take the slow-and-steady approach that has occasionally been lost but has most of the time been a guiding principle of EVE Online's development. I'll be honest, I did not think of the spaceship interior maps when writing up this rant, so I can actually see that working out a bit. But I'm still kind of unsold on vehicles being saved for later, especially seeing as they're taking the slow approach. I, and I'm sure many other vehicle pilots/AV mercs have suffered quite a few headaches from Dust and all its issues. To tell us that we're being set aside for later is, in my opinion, rather insulting. Aside from that, the slow approach they're taking in my experience with them has lead to an insanely long wait time. I'm anticipating a year or more, and most of us devoted players don't want to wait that long for the only reason we ever played dust in the first place. I know it sounds like I want Nova to fail, but I don't. I'd like to see it succeed, I'd also like to be there when it does. I respect your optimistic view, and were this anything other than CCP, I would share it, but I lost my optimism with them long ago. Aside from that, if you don't point out the flaws, and buy into the hype, it may lead to a bad game (my opinion). 99% of what Derrith says is stupidity. -D3lta Blitzkrieg Bittervet ADS pilot, redheads are hot.
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 4174	Posted - 2016.05.10 13:56:00 - [3] - Quote maybe deadcatz wrote: Tldr. Also dont jump the gun. Although you are kinda late to that party.the whole passing judgement on a tech demo. Yeah, I do take a long time, so I'll sum it up for you. No vehicles?! Grrrr, very mad!!! Screw you CCP! Imagine that, but just slightly better worded. 99% of what Derrith says is stupidity. -D3lta Blitzkrieg Bittervet ADS pilot, redheads are hot.
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 4178	Posted - 2016.05.11 21:41:00 - [4] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: I have read a handful of recent articles covering project nova which is detailed in the link below. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=227484&find=unread So far, NOWHERE did it state that the game will not come with vehicles at launch. You, like some others I have seen, are overreacting based on a tech demo that everyone should already know by now based on the articles that the game is not finished yet. Hell, it hasn't even been green lit yet let alone gone into alpha testing. So please stop jumping to conclusions. You're just making up facts that don't exist. Just because CCP has not mentioned vehicles yet it doesn't mean they will definitely not include them at launch. So unless you can prove to everyone here right now that CCP explicitly states that vehicles will not be included at launch I suggest you stop parroting that rumor mill. Based on how you overreacted over vehicles, I can't take your solutions seriously. "Vehicles, a crucial aspect of Dust 514, will also be missing from Project Nova, which will instead focus entirely on infantry combat. Though +ürnason admits that there might be room to include vehicles in the future, he says their presence in Dust 514 often did more harm than good with all of the balancing issues they created." https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/04/25/project-nova-eve-online/ The link in which I found it. There will be no vehicles at release but the possibility at a later date is not off of the table. GÇ£WeGÇÖre not planning any vehicles for the first release; itGÇÖs the same philosophy that weGÇÖre approaching the rest of the game with that weGÇÖre not going to do something if we canGÇÖt do it well. You add complexity when you are capable of adding complexity.GÇ¥ http://biomassed.net/2016/04/24/what-we-know-about-project-nova-so-far/ Second link. I had to snippet a bit of the post, but I think I got the main stuff down. Anyway, my point, through all my admitted rage, was not that we were included in the launch of Nova, but the fact that the only way we have to possibly play Nova in our favorite role is based on a "maybe". Put yourself in a pilots shoes for a moment, if you were told that you would have to wait until later to enjoy (different from play) the successor to a game you spent years on, and even then, without a guarantee that your favorite role is in it, you'd be rather pissed as well. 99% of what Derrith says is stupidity. -D3lta Blitzkrieg Bittervet ADS pilot, redheads are hot.
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 4178	Posted - 2016.05.12 03:01:00 - [5] - Quote LOOKMOM NOHANDS wrote: Derrith Erador wrote: Anyway, my point, through all my admitted rage, was not that we were included in the launch of Nova, but the fact that the only way we have to possibly play Nova in our favorite role is based on a "maybe". Put yourself in a pilots shoes for a moment, if you were told that you would have to wait until later to enjoy (different from play) the successor to a game you spent years on, and even then, without a guarantee that your favorite role is in it, you'd be rather pissed as well. What part of Dust is dead and Nova is a new game are you missing? There is no "we" because you are talking about a group of people on a game that will be totally gone in a couple of weeks. There are no vehicle operators in Nova and obviously will not be at launch. If you don't like it don't play it. Vehicles all but wasted an incredible amount of development time on Dust for what always ended up pissing off one side or another and are in no way a required aspect for a FPS so I can completely agree with Rattati's decision there. Were vehicles fun? Hell yea they were. But vehicles not only affect balancing and resource use but also completely change how maps need to be designed to accommodate them which ends up negatively affecting actual shooter game play. If you don't believe me just look at how stupidly big our maps were just for a total of 32 people making vehicles totally essential at the start of matches and in the event you had no alternate deployment closer to the fight. Go play world of tanks and cry that you don't have a god mode there. I missed none of it. I just don't like the answer given. Before I continue, I'm going to point out a few major flaws in your thought/post process. 1) Your thought process behind vehicles being a waste of space is false, or at least no more true than it would be for any other suits. Case and point, was the commando suit necessary? Not really, an assault or a scout could have done their job of AV in PC. Was it necessary to have a pistol for every race? Again, I don't think so. It was nice, no question, but the game had a possibility of thriving or failing just as much with or without those. So while it may be true that vehicles took up a lot of unnecessary resources, it can be seen that it's no more true for anything infantry related. 2) Vehicles are not a required aspect of an FPS. Were this any other shooter, I would have no good argument, I'll grant that. But this is New Eden, the two sister games to Nova are Eve, and Valkyrie. Both of these games pretty much require you to play in vehicles. You may argue that spaceships and star fighters are not vehicles, but the term vehicle applies to a very broad term, mainly objects used to transports goods or people. Taking this into account, if the plan of CCP is to combine those games, as I recall they've stated, Nova will eventually have to interact with vehicles, albeit from a different game altogether. So in Novas case, that is false. 3) Maps were enlarged to accommodate vehicles. While this may have been CCPs intent, it was not necessary, and to be frank, annoying even to the pilots. Map size and redline has robbed pilots of kills we earned many times over, and saved us when we shouldn't have been saved. I've made threads practically begging CCP to reduce map size/flight ceiling. Vehicles would have thrived just as well on a smaller map. Don't believe me? If you played a PC in a vehicle, and were stationed in the city, all you need to use is the city to be effective, for it has cover, and the city isn't even 20% of the map size in most cases. 4) Pilots wanted god mode. Another falsehood, most of us didn't want that in the slightest. At least not the true ones. We wanted to have balanced and fun fights as much as the enemy. I've personally made many threads regarding vehicle and AV balance, a decent portion which was well received, not all were good ideas, I'll admit. If you wish to have the last word in this, I'll let you have it now. But I won't respond to you after this, it will only devolve into an insult match, and I like to avoid those. 99% of what Derrith says is stupidity. -D3lta Blitzkrieg Bittervet ADS pilot, redheads are hot.