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Himiko Kuronaga
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
5
   |
Posted - 2015.12.01 09:37:00 -
[1] - Quote
Assault suits get kills based on whether they have more player skill than their opponent. They are versatile, hit hard, and can fit proper to the situation. I have never been in a matchup in any of my assault suits and thought "Man, I just got hard countered" with the exception of scrambler rifle vs caldari assault in the last build.
Scout suits get kills primarily by taking advantage of another persons sacrifice. In other words, the scout is most lethal when somebody else is getting shot at, or has poor situational awareness. If a heavy has a number of targets on radar from a team mates active scan, you can bet his attention will be on them and not the guy coming from the other direction. Scouts kill and tank based on misdirection, not based on stats.
Heavy suits are what I refer to as, classically, the big dumb cyclops. Heavies can't see anything without help. Heavies can't move from point A to point B without help, lest they be peppered to death from 40-50 meters away with no recourse. Where the heavy does good, though, is when lesser skilled players attempt to rush him down head on. The heavy is successful when a lesser skilled opponent decides to reject the rock-paper-scissors mentality behind DPS engagements. The problem though, and this is the most damning, heavies can't survive in 1v1 engagements against skilled opponents in this same manner. The heavy can do just fine against weaker players, mind you -- in fact I would go so far to say as this has been the key balancing consideration for them. Against bad players, a heavy might as well be a hero in Dynasty Warriors sending them flying everywhere with little effort. But in a battle of hero against hero, the heavy consistently falls short and is often seen as the easiest target to kill in a competitive PC match.
So, what do I personally see from this?
Assaults need to be versatile and strong -- they do this. Constant power creep has gotten them where they need to be. Amarr suits have issues inherent with their weapon design.
Scouts need to be able to kill based on misdirection and get to places before other people -- they do this. No complaints, except for perhaps the weaker suits like amarr.
Heavies.... can't really excel at anything, except with the Forge Gun role. In my experience if you throw a logi with a rep on an armor tanked Assault, he will most likely end up mitigating more incoming damage and being able to transition better than a heavy would. Given the absurd reload time on the HMG, overheat and long seize duration, the Gal Assault likely puts more accurate damage downrange in the span of a minute as well.
These thoughts, as well as constant bitching from my own heavies about how useless they were against Bons spam, lead me to almost entirely strip the heavy from any of the PC fights I FC'd before quitting. This does not count Commandos or Forgers, of course, as they still have a lot of use in Overwatch and Bridge scenarios.
In general I like where most of the suits are, and I don't want to see the HMG buffed to absurd levels. It could use a balance pass on the heat mechanics but I would leave the damage alone. Rather I think the opposite approach could be taken with the heavy and make it more defensive than offensive. As it stands currently, smaller hitbox combined with movespeed and strafe makes a player more survivable than what is quickly becoming a modest addition of HP on the heavy. At this time I would say it is appropriate for the heavy to get more HP, and it is important that is actually be HP and not resistance as too much resistance actually buffs the support reps they get from Logis.
Just the two cents of a guy who has been FC'ing for FA for the last year. These opinions come purely from the standpoint of what I would currently field in a competitive match when given a choice between a larger pool of players, assuming the map is not extremely situational.
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THEAMAZING POTHEAD
Nyain San
1
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Posted - 2015.12.01 09:46:00 -
[2] - Quote
You know heavies are good.
Just tell the truth-
Scouts are OP as **** in PC.
Bons and now easy as **** knife kills just made them instakillers of heavies without having to chuck boundless re's.
Even OP as **** agimus's have trouble killing them without tking.
Your post is making me facepalm. ò.ó
Nyan!~~=[,,..,,]:3
Nyain SanGäó (rated ® for rape) is currently accepting hatemails.
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Himiko Kuronaga
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
5
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 09:50:00 -
[3] - Quote
When we had been taking on Random Gunz our battles had devolved into simply putting a Bons into the hands of every person on the team -- including our logis. Feel free to ask anyone on the other side of how silly that got. That's how outclassed the HMG was against that weapon.
That said, even without the Bons being an issue very few could use the suit to any efficiency. John Smith could pull it off, but if I put him in an assault suit he would consistently get better results.
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DogeGode Master
226
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Posted - 2015.12.01 09:51:00 -
[4] - Quote
THEAMAZING POTHEAD wrote:You know heavies are good.
Just tell the truth-
Scouts are OP as **** in PC.
Bons and now easy as **** knife kills just made them instakillers of heavies without having to chuck boundless re's.
Even OP as **** agimus's have trouble killing them without tking.
Min assault with bons bruuh
End Game.
Totally not an alt.
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Himiko Kuronaga
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
5
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 09:54:00 -
[5] - Quote
The unfortunate reality is that one great slayer with two rep logis is not as strong as three great slayers.
It's just compromising based on what is available.
And who knows, maybe there IS an argument to buff resistance somewhere in there. All I can tell for certainty is that heavies consistently under perform.
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Echo 1991
Titans of Phoenix
Damage LLC
1
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Posted - 2015.12.01 10:03:00 -
[6] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:The unfortunate reality is that one great slayer with two rep logis is not as strong as three great slayers.
It's just compromising based on what is available.
And who knows, maybe there IS an argument to buff resistance somewhere in there. All I can tell for certainty is that heavies consistently under perform.
The assaults power creep (or power vault, as some put it) hasn't helped the heavy situation, but I wouldn't reverse any of it. Assaults kill everything else at just the right speed right now. They shouldn't be brought down to fix the heavy problem. The heavy themselves need only be elevated a bit.
I dont think its that heavies underperform, more a case of other things outperforming the heavy.
Sure we could buff the heavy but it wouldnt change the fact the other things are still stupid.
Wanna play eve?
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DogeGode Master
227
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Posted - 2015.12.01 10:04:00 -
[7] - Quote
Assaults are obviously too versatile, and have too much dps to them. You don't even need to put bons on a good slayer to play on inside maps. Heavies can't excel at their role because their role is fulfilled by someone that can do their role better in every single way.
DPS isn't as important as mobility in terms of anything. Tanked out heavies can't survive engagements with multiple units anymore anyway.
Point defense can be done with any other suit in the game at the same effieciency.
Tanking is pointless because of crap non-dynamic TTk, (you get to survive for what 5 more seconds as a heavy than any other suit?)
You can't drop links as a heavy which is a big weakness when your team is as stupid as most teams are in current PC.
Totally not an alt.
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CUSE TOWN333
Capital Acquisitions LLC
3
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Posted - 2015.12.01 10:09:00 -
[8] - Quote
Heavys still do ok in PC against who ever the opponent is. Its just not being able to carry a uplink is a big down fall. The major problem was when they nerfed the HMG because that was their big advantage for useing a heavy was raw Dps in CQC engagements.
actions speak louder then words.
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Himiko Kuronaga
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
5
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 10:11:00 -
[9] - Quote
I believe the heavy suit generally survives around a second longer than an assault, assuming neither are attempting to dodge. Five would be stretching things really far.
One second doesn't seem much longer, and it isn't. Not when you can't dodge or disengage at will.
Anyway, I'm only supplying the conclusion I have come to from months of FC.
If TTK goes up, the heavy will likely correct itself. If TTK is kept the same, the HP value on him needs to be brought up.
Either way, the heavy right now is definitely not doing his terminator thing.
CUSE TOWN333 wrote:Heavys still stomp in PC against who ever the opponent is.
Do you say that as a heavy? Or as someone who has to rely on them to get a job done?
I ask this because I am putting down my opinion free of any bias or ego. I stopped playing the heavy a long, long time ago.
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Krixus Flux
Kang Lo Directorate
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.12.01 10:17:00 -
[10] - Quote
But when the heavy was doing its Terminator thing, the tears flowed. Heavily. The heavy as it is now is a result of that.
Saying what's on people's minds
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CUSE TOWN333
Capital Acquisitions LLC
3
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Posted - 2015.12.01 10:18:00 -
[11] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:I believe the heavy suit generally survives around a second longer than an assault, assuming neither are attempting to dodge. Five would be stretching things really far. One second doesn't seem much longer, and it isn't. Not when you can't dodge or disengage at will. Anyway, I'm only supplying the conclusion I have come to from months of FC. If TTK goes up, the heavy will likely correct itself. If TTK is kept the same, the HP value on him needs to be brought up. Either way, the heavy right now is definitely not doing his terminator thing. CUSE TOWN333 wrote:Heavys still stomp in PC against who ever the opponent is. Do you say that as a heavy? Or as someone who has to rely on them to get a job done? i had to edit that when i noticed you might get my heavy buffed with this topic. Yes heavys are bad.
actions speak louder then words.
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Himiko Kuronaga
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
5
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 10:20:00 -
[12] - Quote
When I talk about the Terminator thing, I want to put this scene in your mind.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnGVoiJj3ng
Notice its not all about dishing out damage as much as shrugging it off. Heavies have not really done this in recent memory. We don't really have any particular suit that fills the "soak up damage" role effectively, and you'd assume the heavy would be a dead ringer for it. Am I wrong in assuming the heavy should be filling this role?
In the other end of the spectrum, we have this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RbL4PwTDsQ
Not what I'm aiming for, unless SERIOUS restrictions got applied to heavy deployment lol.
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CaP XZ
86
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Posted - 2015.12.01 10:41:00 -
[13] - Quote
All suits trade something for something, its the players who make that 'something' work. You can't have HP and agility at the same time (classically in FPS games) . In dust's case you have E-war, agility, HP regen, DPS and HP. Just remember that,
Assaults are doing there thing; assaulting. You want to get a high kill-game in a pub? Run an assault. They can have E-war, agility, HP Regen, DPS and HP. They are the middle-man, the jack-of-all-trades but the-master-of-none.
Scouts aren't doing well because they have lost their main defines; electronic warfare. For example an Amarr scout could have replaced the gal logi if Can'tCodeProperly (CCP) gave them valuable bonuses. They could just stack precision in highs with range amps and kin cats in the lows, run 60 metre circles around the point with a shotgun at 9 metres/second; nothing could get 20 metres within it, maybe a max-damped gal scout.
The cal scout could be the mix between an amarr and gallant scout; both stealthy with damps and containing the edge of high scan precision (or low in db  ).
The gal scout would just be the ghost it should be, with the min being the old min-logi; the hacker, assassin that always gets that last shot off to kill a heavy in the assault on alpha, the speed-scout to drop a link in the city, ect.
Scouts are severely lacking in E-war. I remember running a logo suit and seeing better than a scout, literally. CCP made the cloak useless, scout suits weaker but removing their E-war for this ridiculously small-range inner/outer circle idea was a bad BAD move.
The inner/outer idea is great, I'm all for it but it has a ridiculous range and is extremely poorly thought out.
Heavies are, in my solid opinion, almost doing what they should do. They wield the highest DPS weapons in the game while sacrificing agility. They are point defense. BUT they are too slow. I've ran a heavy long long ago and it was just too damn slow; even a min sentinel. I have no points in any heavy suits at all because they are too slow and i need agility.
TLDR: Assaults can do everything in a bad way, scouts need E-war back and heavies are to slow.
alt of xavier zor
the real xor
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CaP XZ
86
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Posted - 2015.12.01 10:44:00 -
[14] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:CUSE TOWN333 wrote:Heavys still stomp in PC against who ever the opponent is. Do you say that as a heavy? Or as someone who has to rely on them to get a job done? I ask this because I am putting down my opinion free of any bias or ego. I stopped playing the heavy a long, long time ago.
He is right, heavies do work in PC but they aren't mobile units. If you have a problem with using the heavy it may be because you are trying to assault in it, it is for defense (e.g not moving 30m away from a point) which is in my opinion very limiting
alt of xavier zor
the real xor
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Himiko Kuronaga
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
5
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 10:47:00 -
[15] - Quote
In a proper competitive match scouts don't need their own radar because they have dedicated active scanners helping them as it is. Damps are where they find their strength. Due to this, gal scouts are the most viable. Cal scouts are viable up until focused scanners on gal logis come out, or if the opposing team brings out a logibros which can passively scan up to 50 meters at 17db.
In short, the "scout" doesn't have issues if you refer to the scout simply as the gal scout. The other ones, yes, have problems.
I would disagree about the assault thing. In terms of purely selfish rockstar play, there is nothing better. In the end the goal is to kill the other team and no other suit does it better.
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
2
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Posted - 2015.12.01 11:13:00 -
[16] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:In a proper competitive match scouts don't need their own radar because they have dedicated active scanners helping them as it is. Damps are where they find their strength. Due to this, gal scouts are the most viable. Cal scouts are viable up until focused scanners on gal logis come out, or if the opposing team brings out a logibros which can passively scan up to 50 meters at 17db. Min scouts are suicide fast hackers and they do this role well.
In short, the "scout" doesn't have issues if you refer to the scout simply as the gal scout. The other ones, yes, have problems.
I would disagree about the assault thing. In terms of purely selfish rockstar play, there is nothing better. In the end the goal is to kill the other team and no other suit does it better. Regarding Sentinels I'm inclined to agree. They aren't terrible, but seem a bit weak in situations they should excel at. I would rather see improvements to resistances or HMG damage/heat buildup than to raw hp. The power of a sentinel should be it's synergy with support. Resistance fits with that better, and the current resistance bonuses are kind of weak. Plus shield sentinels would have even more trouble regaining hp if the raw hp was increased.
I also agree about scouts, except that the Gal scout is the best hacker due to the profile bonus.
It was decided by the community that scout passive scanning was too powerful when combined with everything else, which is why it was nerfed. I think it's ok now with some minor tweaks. Scanning support helps scouts, but also consider that scouts are often designed to operate away from support, or with limited support.
A scout's strength is in speed and stealth. An unscanned Gal or Cal scout is a valuable unit in PC, though an assault is generally better at killing. This means that the scouts without profile bonuses are inherently inferior. Here is a suggestion to fix that problem: Normalising scout profiles |
Aeon Amadi
13
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Posted - 2015.12.01 11:13:00 -
[17] - Quote
I like you better when you're like this; when you're constructive.
Negative Introspection - Aeon's CPM Blog
Skype: nomistrav
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CaP XZ
86
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Posted - 2015.12.01 11:14:00 -
[18] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:In a proper competitive match scouts don't need their own radar because they have dedicated active scanners helping them as it is. Damps are where they find their strength. Due to this, gal scouts are the most viable. Cal scouts are viable up until focused scanners on gal logis come out, or if the opposing team brings out a logibros which can passively scan up to 50 meters at 17db. Min scouts are suicide fast hackers and they do this role well.
In short, the "scout" doesn't have issues if you refer to the scout simply as the gal scout. The other ones, yes, have problems.
I would disagree about the assault thing. In terms of purely selfish rockstar play, there is nothing better. In the end the goal is to kill the other team and no other suit does it better.
Think of solo/pub play as well; scouts do need E-war capabilities and heavies do need some speed. Maybe a bonus tweak
alt of xavier zor
the real xor
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Mad Syringe
Dead Man's Game
835
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 11:38:00 -
[19] - Quote
The speed of Heavies is their disadvantage so it should stay as is. BUT, Overheat needs to c hange since it makes it just a big target easy to kill. Resistances are also a good point.
Scouts should not get more e-war capabilities, since they need a disadvantage, especcially when cloaked.
Running a SCOUT in the middle of heavy warfare in a city should be suicidal, and that's exactly what it is right now. The Assault should be the better suit for this scenario. Do not nerf active scanners whatsoever, or the scout will be reign supreme in city sockets again.
I think (as a non assault player) that the assaults are where they belong. Everybody and his mom complained how crap they where, so right now they are the most used suits and that is how it should be.
Logis right now are allrightish, and commandos aswell (though I miss my min bonus for swarms).
BTW, give min Commandos an AV weapon... (Breach MD needs either the firerate of the standard or more direct damage!!!)
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Himiko Kuronaga
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
5
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Posted - 2015.12.01 11:42:00 -
[20] - Quote
CaP XZ wrote:Himiko Kuronaga wrote:CUSE TOWN333 wrote:Heavys still stomp in PC against who ever the opponent is. Do you say that as a heavy? Or as someone who has to rely on them to get a job done? I ask this because I am putting down my opinion free of any bias or ego. I stopped playing the heavy a long, long time ago. He is right, heavies do work in PC but they aren't mobile units. If you have a problem with using the heavy it may be because you are trying to assault in it, it is for defense (e.g not moving 30m away from a point) which is in my opinion very limiting
I do not play Heavy anymore, and I haven't for more than a year so that "advice" doesn't really mean anything to me. If they sit in front of a panel im just going to grenade/flux it then rush them down. If they are out in the open I'm just going to flatout beat them.
There are not any heavies in this game I would consider a relevant threat in a 1v1 environment, but there are plenty of players who are. John would give me issues in a teamplay environment, but even then he would be severely handicapped. If he goes assault, it's GG. That says all it needs to say about where the heavy is.
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Lightning35 Delta514
The Warlords Legion
2
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Posted - 2015.12.01 12:12:00 -
[21] - Quote
I can agree.....
With my assault, I'm good all the time.
With my scout... Unless enemy is distracted, cloak delay plus scanners plus hp all makes it harder to assure you kill a person 1vs1.
With heavy, I can also agree and relate. What I notice most tho is how slow it is for heavies to react. By the time you turn around to attack, you're dead against a skilled player.
CEO of T-W-L
Gallente Loyalist- basic gear OP!!!
GALLENTE!!! FREEDOM!!! QUAFE!!!
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
18
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Posted - 2015.12.01 14:52:00 -
[22] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:In a proper competitive match scouts don't need their own radar because they have dedicated active scanners helping them as it is. Damps are where they find their strength. Due to this, gal scouts are the most viable. Cal scouts are viable up until focused scanners on gal logis come out, or if the opposing team brings out a logibros which can passively scan up to 50 meters at 17db. Min scouts are suicide fast hackers and they do this role well.
In short, the "scout" doesn't have issues if you refer to the scout simply as the gal scout. The other ones, yes, have problems.
I would disagree about the assault thing. In terms of purely selfish rockstar play, there is nothing better. In the end the goal is to kill the other team and no other suit does it better.
So ... Scouts are fine because GalLogis are OP?
Dropsuit Usage Rates
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Mortedeamor
The Black Masquerade
2
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Posted - 2015.12.01 15:27:00 -
[23] - Quote
i agree
ONE UNIVERSE
ONE WAR
ONE MOTHER kitten GOD kitten SYSTEM
PORTDUST514
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
2
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Posted - 2015.12.01 15:39:00 -
[24] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Himiko Kuronaga wrote:In a proper competitive match scouts don't need their own radar because they have dedicated active scanners helping them as it is. Damps are where they find their strength. Due to this, gal scouts are the most viable. Cal scouts are viable up until focused scanners on gal logis come out, or if the opposing team brings out a logibros which can passively scan up to 50 meters at 17db. Min scouts are suicide fast hackers and they do this role well.
In short, the "scout" doesn't have issues if you refer to the scout simply as the gal scout. The other ones, yes, have problems.
I would disagree about the assault thing. In terms of purely selfish rockstar play, there is nothing better. In the end the goal is to kill the other team and no other suit does it better. So ... Scout EWAR is fine because GalLogi scans are OP. FAscinating logic you've got there.
Passive and active scans are difficult to directly compare. I'd rather all scouts were capable of effective stealth before worrying too much about scanning.
Supporting a team with scanning is a role more suited to logis. Scouts need scanning to help evasion and combat. They aren't in a bad place in this regard. They don't need to easily see everyone's positions over a large area.
The Gal scout's 2% per level precision bonus is pretty worthless, as there are so few situations where it makes any difference. A small buff here would be nice. 4% per level for example would be effective. Range amps were over-nerfed. Other than these issues I see no problem with scout passive scanning. So long as they can have speed and stealth.
Speed + stealth + powerful passive scanning all together was considered OP. Speed + stealth + moderate passive scanning would be fine. |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
18
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Posted - 2015.12.01 15:40:00 -
[25] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:
Speed + stealth + powerful passive scanning all together was considered OP. Speed + stealth + moderate passive scanning would be fine.
yep.
Dropsuit Usage Rates
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
18
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Posted - 2015.12.01 15:50:00 -
[26] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:
Supporting a team with scanning is a role more suited to logis.
I've no problem with that, so long as it is balanced. GalLogi active scans are not balanced. Last year's EWAR changes traded one form of permascan for another. If permascan is bad, as we all agreed at the time, we should fix all forms of it.
Dropsuit Usage Rates
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Himiko Kuronaga
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
5
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Posted - 2015.12.01 15:52:00 -
[27] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Himiko Kuronaga wrote:In a proper competitive match scouts don't need their own radar because they have dedicated active scanners helping them as it is. Damps are where they find their strength. Due to this, gal scouts are the most viable. Cal scouts are viable up until focused scanners on gal logis come out, or if the opposing team brings out a logibros which can passively scan up to 50 meters at 17db. Min scouts are suicide fast hackers and they do this role well.
In short, the "scout" doesn't have issues if you refer to the scout simply as the gal scout. The other ones, yes, have problems.
I would disagree about the assault thing. In terms of purely selfish rockstar play, there is nothing better. In the end the goal is to kill the other team and no other suit does it better. So ... Scout EWAR is fine because GalLogi scans are OP. FAscinating logic you've got there.
If you already have access to it from multiple sources, clearly you don't need it built into your suit.
The only real exception to this would be the amarr scout which has a deeper potential scan, but a dinky radius. He's a problem child, but weak enough that I believe deserves the extra range.
Now if you're going to lobby that active scanners should be removed from the game entirely, feel free. That's a totally different angle which I can respect.
If it were up to me, uplinks wouldn't exist either. But this isn't really a thread about equipment design, it's a thread about role viability in regards to killing. Currently the scout is viable due to the before mentioned reasons. You may not like those reasons, but it does not render them untrue.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
18
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Posted - 2015.12.01 16:03:00 -
[28] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Himiko Kuronaga wrote:In a proper competitive match scouts don't need their own radar because they have dedicated active scanners helping them as it is. Damps are where they find their strength. Due to this, gal scouts are the most viable. Cal scouts are viable up until focused scanners on gal logis come out, or if the opposing team brings out a logibros which can passively scan up to 50 meters at 17db. Min scouts are suicide fast hackers and they do this role well.
In short, the "scout" doesn't have issues if you refer to the scout simply as the gal scout. The other ones, yes, have problems.
I would disagree about the assault thing. In terms of purely selfish rockstar play, there is nothing better. In the end the goal is to kill the other team and no other suit does it better. So ... Scout EWAR is fine because GalLogi scans are OP. FAscinating logic you've got there. If you already have access to it from multiple sources, clearly you don't need it built into your suit. The only real exception to this would be the amarr scout which has a deeper potential scan, but a dinky radius. He's a problem child, but weak enough that I believe deserves the extra range. Now if you're going to lobby that active scanners should be removed from the game entirely, feel free. That's a totally different angle which I can respect. If it were up to me, uplinks wouldn't exist either. But this isn't really a thread about equipment design, it's a thread about role viability in regards to killing. Currently the scout is viable due to the before mentioned reasons. You may not like those reasons, but it does not render them untrue.
A valid, albeit debatable, position. What isn't debatable is that 3 of 4 Scouts have racial bonuses to passive scans. If Scouts are indeed Scouts, then these racial bonuses make sense (though the weak state of passive scans need work). If Scouts are not Scouts, then we should decide what they are and adjust their racial bonuses accordingly.
TL;DR: Scouts aren't fine.
Dropsuit Usage Rates
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Derrith Erador
Fatal Absolution
3
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Posted - 2015.12.01 16:07:00 -
[29] - Quote
Honestly the problem with those fat boys, aside from small johnsons, is the fact that they're dependent on everyone for everything. In order to be a proper slayer, they have to have people wait on them hand and foot, and even then their strafe speed and slow movement makes them easy targets. All I have to do is blow up their buttwipe- I mean logis and they're about as useful as a dietary specialist behind a Mcdonalds counter. A decent to make fat boys not so dependent and slightly better in my experience is to give them a better ability to DODGE!!!!!!
In layman's terms, better strafe...
99% of what Derrith says is stupidity. -D3lta Blitzkrieg
I like whales
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Milita Mable
CYBER COBRAS ALT
66
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Posted - 2015.12.01 17:09:00 -
[30] - Quote
I agree that they are slow. I've always seen heavies in PC has a noob suit.
You skill into them if your not a versatile player or if you wanted to get into PC quicker in the start of PC. (Meta was Slayer Logi + Heavies)
Now the meta has shifted.
Tell me why I would use a heavy suit if I have over 100m+ SP?
There is no reason when player tactics will always rule if your smart.
Uplinks, Stealth, Support, Intel.
All of them a heavy can't do.
Allow Heavy's some bandwidth. 4 Perhaps? |
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
2
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 17:18:00 -
[31] - Quote
Milita Mable wrote:I agree that they are slow. I've always seen heavies in PC has a noob suit.
You skill into them if your not a versatile player or if you wanted to get into PC quicker in the start of PC. (Meta was Slayer Logi + Heavies)
Now the meta has shifted.
Tell me why I would use a heavy suit if I have over 100m+ SP?
There is no reason when player tactics will always rule if your smart.
Uplinks, Stealth, Support, Intel.
All of them a heavy can't do.
Allow Heavy's some bandwidth. 4 Perhaps?
I believe a sentinel benefits a lot from player skill. I've fought sentinels that are extremely difficult to take down as their positioning and general awareness is such that you can't get behind them and you will die extremely quickly if in their line of sight.
I'd never say good sentinels aren't good players. |
Apoleon II
Rooky rooks
20
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 18:11:00 -
[32] - Quote
What? Scouts based on sacrifices? Not for all the players, i usually save my teammates
Sorry for my bad english :$
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
18
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Posted - 2015.12.01 18:30:00 -
[33] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:
So ... Scout EWAR is fine because GalLogi scans are OP. FAscinating logic you've got there.
If you already have access to it [scans] from multiple sources, clearly you don't need it built into your suit. The only real exception to this would be the amarr scout which has a deeper potential scan, but a dinky radius. He's a problem child, but weak enough that I believe deserves the extra range.
One last point. You tell us that it isn't the Scout's job to scan as he's getting that intel from other sources. Then, you suggest that we buff the AM Scout's capacity for scanning. So which is it? Is it the AM Scout's job to scan, or is it someone else's? If it is the AM Scout's job, then he should be allowed to be good at it, right? If it isn't his job, then we need to find for him a new job instead of making him less lackluster at a job he's bad at because he isn't designed to do it. Right?
Seriously, where am I wrong here? I'd love to better understand what the cool kids are thinking.
Dropsuit Usage Rates
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MexXx Dust-Slayer
Fatal Absolution
536
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 19:39:00 -
[34] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:One last point. You tell us that it isn't the Scout's job to scan as he is getting scan intel from other sources. Himiko did not say that the scout's job is not to scan, he said "In a proper competitive match scouts don't need their own radar because they have dedicated active scanners helping them as it is. Damps are where they find their strength." He also did not say anything about whether the scans are OP or not as you may or may not be assuming.
Adipem Nothi wrote:Then, you suggest that we should buff the AM Scout's capacity for scanning. Are these statements not in direct conflict? No, because iirc the AM scout's passive scans are more precise than the gal logi's focused in the inner most ewar circle, this is at extremely close range which makes it useless because you would see your target anyway, hence his range buff suggestion or capacity as you said.
Adipem Nothi wrote:Seriously, what am I missing here? Is there some mysterious logic at play here? Probably the ability to comprehend text whilst butthurt about scouts (probably rightfully so).
But this thread is not about scouts vs gal logi. I think removing x amount of hp from the sentinels seconday tank and moving twice as much to it's primary tank would be a good idea. For example gal sent loses 50 shield and gains 100 armor. |
Himiko Kuronaga
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
5
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 20:13:00 -
[35] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Himiko Kuronaga wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Himiko Kuronaga wrote:In a proper competitive match scouts don't need their own radar because they have dedicated active scanners helping them as it is. Damps are where they find their strength. Due to this, gal scouts are the most viable. Cal scouts are viable up until focused scanners on gal logis come out, or if the opposing team brings out a logibros which can passively scan up to 50 meters at 17db. Min scouts are suicide fast hackers and they do this role well.
In short, the "scout" doesn't have issues if you refer to the scout simply as the gal scout. The other ones, yes, have problems.
I would disagree about the assault thing. In terms of purely selfish rockstar play, there is nothing better. In the end the goal is to kill the other team and no other suit does it better. So ... Scout EWAR is fine because GalLogi scans are OP. FAscinating logic you've got there. If you already have access to it from multiple sources, clearly you don't need it built into your suit. The only real exception to this would be the amarr scout which has a deeper potential scan, but a dinky radius. He's a problem child, but weak enough that I believe deserves the extra range. Now if you're going to lobby that active scanners should be removed from the game entirely, feel free. That's a totally different angle which I can respect. If it were up to me, uplinks wouldn't exist either. But this isn't really a thread about equipment design, it's a thread about role viability in regards to killing. Currently the scout is viable due to the before mentioned reasons. You may not like those reasons, but it does not render them untrue. A valid, albeit debatable, position. What isn't debatable is that three out of four Scouts have racial bonuses to passive scans. Regardless of what we think Scouts are doing or should be doing, they are still designed to be scouting; their bonuses to passive scans have remain unchanged since HF Charlie (Aug 2014). If Scouts today are indeed still supposed to be scouting, then these racial bonuses to passive scans still make sense, though the overly weakened states of those scans very likely need work. If Scouts are in fact no longer supposed to be scouting, then we need to decide what they are supposed to be doing and adjust their outmoded racial bonuses accordingly. That makes sense, right? The bottom line is that Scouts aren't fine. We made it a point to fix the sub-par racial bonuses of GA and CA Assaults. Should we not do the same with sub-par (or possibly even outmoded) racial bonuses of Scouts? As for removing active scans from the game, that's not my recommendation at all. My recommendation is to balance active scans. There are lots of great ideas out there on how to go about doing this.
When active scans change, you'll likely have an argument to make about their overall viability. I'll probably be right there with you lobbying for some kind of change. But right now, in the current meta, they are viable (pardoning the amarr scout who seems to be crippled).
This thread is commenting on the viability in the current meta, not the theoretical one that might exist if things were different.
This is a positive and endearing message brought to you by Himi.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
18
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Posted - 2015.12.01 20:16:00 -
[36] - Quote
MexXx: Himiko did not say that the scout's job is not to scan, he said "In a proper competitive match scouts don't need their own radar because they have dedicated active scanners helping them as it is."
"If you already have access to it from multiple sources, clearly you don't need it built into your suit" is what Himiko said. The 'Scouts aren't recon units anymore' position is a pretty common position today. If that's Rattati's intent, then we need to update the Scout racial bonuses related to scanning. If, on the other hand, Scouts are supposed to be recon units, then we need to unblur the lines between Scout and Logi passives as well as find a way to better differentiate the AM Scout from the CA Scout.
MexXx: ... iirc the AM scout's passive scans are more precise than the gal logi's focused in the inner most ewar circle, this is at extremely close range which makes it useless because you would see your target anyway, hence his range buff suggestion or capacity as you said.
With 1-2 precision enhancers, any unit can have unbeatable inner ring scans. Strong short-range scans is no longer a defining characteristic.
Dropsuit Usage Rates
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Himiko Kuronaga
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
5
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 20:36:00 -
[37] - Quote
Also, please remember the title -- Kill interaction.
This other secondary mechanical role stuff is good to talk about, but it's not really where I'm coming from with the message I'm trying to get across about viability. I'm specifically talking about kill interaction and combat viability.
This is a positive and endearing message brought to you by Himi.
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CUSE TOWN333
Capital Acquisitions LLC
3
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 21:18:00 -
[38] - Quote
CaP XZ wrote:Himiko Kuronaga wrote:CUSE TOWN333 wrote:Heavys still stomp in PC against who ever the opponent is. Do you say that as a heavy? Or as someone who has to rely on them to get a job done? I ask this because I am putting down my opinion free of any bias or ego. I stopped playing the heavy a long, long time ago. He is right, heavies do work in PC but they aren't mobile units. If you have a problem with using the heavy it may be because you are trying to assault in it, it is for defense (e.g not moving 30m away from a point) which is in my opinion very limiting stop lying like you ever been in a high LvL PC. While heavys can work if used right the assault clearly is the better option.
actions speak louder then words.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
18
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 21:30:00 -
[39] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:Also, please remember the title -- Kill interaction.
This other secondary mechanical role stuff is good to talk about, but it's not really where I'm coming from with the message I'm trying to get across about viability. I'm specifically talking about kill interaction and combat viability.
If the scans are coming from somewhere then the only question of relevance to me is whether or not the suit is capable of using that intel to kill people in a competitive environment. And currently, yes. It can. That's all it means to this particular discussion.
That's fair, Himiko. My concern is that someone might surmise from the OP that all is good and well with Scouts at the competitive level. That isn't at all the case. Sure, GalScouts with Shotguns might be getting the job done, but what of everything else, from EWAR interplay to Knives to the other 3 Scouts sitting on the sidelines (and why)?
There's more to the competitive meta than "Scouts are fine, Assaults are fine, Logis are fine, let's buff Heavies." Such a takeaway would very likely create more problems than it'd solve.
Dropsuit Usage Rates
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Balistyc Farshot
MONSTER SYNERGY
445
|
Posted - 2015.12.01 23:02:00 -
[40] - Quote
I did perform as a Sentinnel for a long time and I think they need to undo their enormous accuracy nerf on the HMG until they can release more weapons for the suit. That is the biggest problem for the suit is that it was destroying players when you had 2 heavies in domination sitting on the point with the previous TTK. Since the TTK has decreased as greatly as it has, they need to give the heavy the ability to out DPS all attackers. then speedy assault can use corners to take down heavies.
The heavy sacrifices more than any other suits to dedicate itself to a single weapon. There is no retreat, they have to out fight their competitors or die. Since the RR, CR, and SCR changes, the HMG nerf has been slowly being felt more and more. I used to heavy regularly but I gave it up in the last update because it is just not as effective as it used to be. Being stationary, having to worry about long reload times, heat build up, and a lack of equipment. The tears for heavies to be nerfed drowned that suit.
I think if the player base doesn't want stationary juggernauts, CCP needs to make heavies that can fight back with the old accurate HMG. Then heavies would be point defense but trying to out shoot instead of out last the competition. Making speedy heavies is simply removing their greatest draw back to provide them some minor survive ability.
"Dying with your rep tool out - the logi-flasher!"
Who hasn't been caught by a cute little female scout doing this?
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Bradric Banewolf
Titans of Phoenix
Damage LLC
1
|
Posted - 2015.12.02 01:08:00 -
[41] - Quote
Because warbarge dmg bonus was a good idea..... 
Few seem to want to face the fact that high TTK+LAGxJump mod stacking= nothing works correctly anymore.
Warbarge subsystem that increases dmg is not helping.
CCP's uncanny ability to just throw garbage(Myos, FOTM) at the situation, and wait for results is getting really played out.
A large percentage of players lacking integrity in their gameplay, and being willing to "alter" for results on the battlefield. (really trying to be understanding on this, but i'm from an ancient time of honor in all things)
To the point I agree
The sentinel is one of my least used roles, and highly situational in it's usefulness. I've refined my layout to assault, logi, heavy, tank. Of the 3 in my playstyle the logi is the most useful and effective for the team. The Assault is good, and the tank is... well a tank. The heavy is becoming my least favorite as it is so easily countered by literally everything. Like the AR without the bonus, in close range it simply doesn't stop targets before it's over taken. I see an influx in heavies using assault HMG's so they can deal hard hitting dmg sooner at longer ranges on faster moving targets. Other than that the mis assault with shotgun will wreck you 9/10 times in PC repeatedly. I remember posting that cold hard fact many times before, but everyone said "Low ehp" as if it matters?!
I've completely ditched the scout and cmdo. Cmdo is just overwatch in PC, and the only good ones are the Cal and Min for it. The armor based mandos are just filling racial parity. The scout has been replaced by Min assaut, and rendered useless.
seems to me, the more armor you have the quicker you die. Not the other way around?! Everytime I hear "Bradric heavy" I just shake my head lol?!
As it stands even if balance is reached i'll still be lagging until CCP sorts that out as well so....
"Anybody order chaos?"
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
12
|
Posted - 2015.12.02 01:20:00 -
[42] - Quote
Came expecting trolking and rants.
Floored.
Carry on. Reading carefully. Taking notes.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Bradric Banewolf
Titans of Phoenix
Damage LLC
1
|
Posted - 2015.12.02 01:26:00 -
[43] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Came expecting trolking and rants.
Floored.
Carry on. Reading carefully. Taking notes.
Sweet mother of mary!
Thank you!!
"Anybody order chaos?"
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Russel Mendoza
Klandatu
332
|
Posted - 2015.12.02 02:46:00 -
[44] - Quote
Heavies are for camping. Both of them.
Assaults are for head on fights. They are the badasses of the game.
Logis are for bitches. Yes you are. You know that already.
Scouts are for backstabbers. Stealthy sons of bitches.
Me I'm a camper.
I'm the biggest Dustard in the universe!!!
Summoning technique "Gorgon no jutsu"
Vehicle request accepted.
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Ghost Kaisar
Fatal Absolution
14
|
Posted - 2015.12.02 14:57:00 -
[45] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Came expecting trolking and rants.
Floored.
Carry on. Reading carefully. Taking notes.
I mean, if you want your fill.
Re-Re-Re-Re-Retired PC Scout. I miss the old days ;_;
You never just leave Dust. You story will last forever.
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Panthrax Oblivion
1
|
Posted - 2015.12.02 15:20:00 -
[46] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:Assault suits get kills based on whether they have more player skill than their opponent. They are versatile, hit hard, and can fit proper to the situation. I have never been in a matchup in any of my assault suits and thought "Man, I just got hard countered" with the exception of scrambler rifle vs caldari assault in the last build.
Scout suits get kills primarily by taking advantage of another persons sacrifice. In other words, the scout is most lethal when somebody else is getting shot at, or has poor situational awareness. If a heavy has a number of targets on radar from a team mates active scan, you can bet his attention will be on them and not the guy coming from the other direction. Scouts kill and tank based on misdirection, not based on stats.
Heavy suits are what I refer to as, classically, the big dumb cyclops. Heavies can't see anything without help. Heavies can't move from point A to point B without help, lest they be peppered to death from 40-50 meters away with no recourse. Where the heavy does good, though, is when lesser skilled players attempt to rush him down head on. The heavy is successful when a lesser skilled opponent decides to reject the rock-paper-scissors mentality behind DPS engagements. The problem though, and this is the most damning, heavies can't survive in 1v1 engagements against skilled opponents in this same manner. The heavy can do just fine against weaker players, mind you -- in fact I would go so far to say as this has been the key balancing consideration for them. Against bad players, a heavy might as well be a hero in Dynasty Warriors sending them flying everywhere with little effort. But in a battle of hero against hero, the heavy consistently falls short and is often seen as the easiest target to kill in a competitive PC match.
So, what do I personally see from this?
Assaults need to be versatile and strong -- they do this. Constant power creep has gotten them where they need to be. Amarr suits have issues inherent with their weapon design.
Scouts need to be able to kill based on misdirection and get to places before other people -- they do this. No complaints, except for perhaps the weaker suits like amarr.
Heavies.... can't really excel at anything, except with the Forge Gun role. In my experience if you throw a logi with a rep on an armor tanked Assault, he will most likely end up mitigating more incoming damage and being able to transition better than a heavy would. Given the absurd reload time on the HMG, overheat and long seize duration, the Gal Assault likely puts more accurate damage downrange in the span of a minute as well.
These thoughts, as well as constant bitching from my own heavies about how useless they were against Bons spam, lead me to almost entirely strip the heavy from any of the PC fights I FC'd before quitting. This does not count Commandos or Forgers, of course, as they still have a lot of use in Overwatch and Bridge scenarios.
In general I like where most of the suits are, and I don't want to see the HMG buffed to absurd levels. It could use a balance pass on the heat mechanics but I would leave the damage alone. Rather I think the opposite approach could be taken with the heavy and make it more defensive than offensive. As it stands currently, smaller hitbox combined with movespeed and strafe makes a player more survivable than what is quickly becoming a modest addition of HP on the heavy. At this time I would say it is appropriate for the heavy to get more HP, and it is important that it actually be HP and not resistance as too much resistance actually buffs the support reps they get from Logis making it a potentially OP combination.
Just the two cents of a guy who has been FC'ing for FA for the last year. These opinions come purely from the standpoint of what I would currently field in a competitive match when given a choice between a larger pool of players, assuming the map is not extremely situational.
Apparently u haven't seen me heavy  I can agree about the scouts though. Tough to kill when they're right up against your chest
GûæGûæGûæGûæGûæGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûê GûäGûäGûäGûäGûäGûäGûäGûä
GûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûêGûê
GùÑGèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGû¦GèÖGùñ..
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Himiko Kuronaga
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
6
|
Posted - 2015.12.02 16:48:00 -
[47] - Quote
Panthrax Oblivion wrote:Himiko Kuronaga wrote:Assault suits get kills based on whether they have more player skill than their opponent. They are versatile, hit hard, and can fit proper to the situation. I have never been in a matchup in any of my assault suits and thought "Man, I just got hard countered" with the exception of scrambler rifle vs caldari assault in the last build.
Scout suits get kills primarily by taking advantage of another persons sacrifice. In other words, the scout is most lethal when somebody else is getting shot at, or has poor situational awareness. If a heavy has a number of targets on radar from a team mates active scan, you can bet his attention will be on them and not the guy coming from the other direction. Scouts kill and tank based on misdirection, not based on stats.
Heavy suits are what I refer to as, classically, the big dumb cyclops. Heavies can't see anything without help. Heavies can't move from point A to point B without help, lest they be peppered to death from 40-50 meters away with no recourse. Where the heavy does good, though, is when lesser skilled players attempt to rush him down head on. The heavy is successful when a lesser skilled opponent decides to reject the rock-paper-scissors mentality behind DPS engagements. The problem though, and this is the most damning, heavies can't survive in 1v1 engagements against skilled opponents in this same manner. The heavy can do just fine against weaker players, mind you -- in fact I would go so far to say as this has been the key balancing consideration for them. Against bad players, a heavy might as well be a hero in Dynasty Warriors sending them flying everywhere with little effort. But in a battle of hero against hero, the heavy consistently falls short and is often seen as the easiest target to kill in a competitive PC match.
So, what do I personally see from this?
Assaults need to be versatile and strong -- they do this. Constant power creep has gotten them where they need to be. Amarr suits have issues inherent with their weapon design.
Scouts need to be able to kill based on misdirection and get to places before other people -- they do this. No complaints, except for perhaps the weaker suits like amarr.
Heavies.... can't really excel at anything, except with the Forge Gun role. In my experience if you throw a logi with a rep on an armor tanked Assault, he will most likely end up mitigating more incoming damage and being able to transition better than a heavy would. Given the absurd reload time on the HMG, overheat and long seize duration, the Gal Assault likely puts more accurate damage downrange in the span of a minute as well.
These thoughts, as well as constant bitching from my own heavies about how useless they were against Bons spam, lead me to almost entirely strip the heavy from any of the PC fights I FC'd before quitting. This does not count Commandos or Forgers, of course, as they still have a lot of use in Overwatch and Bridge scenarios.
In general I like where most of the suits are, and I don't want to see the HMG buffed to absurd levels. It could use a balance pass on the heat mechanics but I would leave the damage alone. Rather I think the opposite approach could be taken with the heavy and make it more defensive than offensive. As it stands currently, smaller hitbox combined with movespeed and strafe makes a player more survivable than what is quickly becoming a modest addition of HP on the heavy. At this time I would say it is appropriate for the heavy to get more HP, and it is important that it actually be HP and not resistance as too much resistance actually buffs the support reps they get from Logis making it a potentially OP combination.
Just the two cents of a guy who has been FC'ing for FA for the last year. These opinions come purely from the standpoint of what I would currently field in a competitive match when given a choice between a larger pool of players, assuming the map is not extremely situational. Apparently u haven't seen me heavy
I would prefer not to bring ego into the discussion. Even if you are somehow an exception to the rule, the rule remains a problem.
This is a positive and endearing message brought to you by Himi.
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Vong Gai
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
28
|
Posted - 2015.12.02 18:13:00 -
[48] - Quote
Heavies were meant to be point holders and did such a good job of it they nerfed everything, including the maps where heavies were most effective. The run around is too laggy and the home point buildings are now easy access to jumpers. The good ole days of me checking the CRU entrance, Pizzle at the front door and Jeezy as the logi on the steps. You just couldnt take the point, many tried but none succeeded.
'Pain heals, Chicks dig scars, Glory lasts forever!"
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Bax Zanith
Sinfonia1898
243
|
Posted - 2015.12.02 18:56:00 -
[49] - Quote
I too feel that the heavy drop suits need a hand. An increase to the amarr sentinel's armor would be nice, and gallentes would probably benefit from the same or just an increase to their armor repair. Caldari sentinel would benefit from in increase to shield regeneration. And the minmatar, im not sure what would help their heavies.
"You're either the cow or the butcher."
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Himiko Kuronaga
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
6
|
Posted - 2015.12.02 20:11:00 -
[50] - Quote
They just need more HP across the board, honestly.
The regen on a caldari sentinel isn't going to help him when the assault player decides it isn't necessary to stop firing at the guy.
This is a positive and endearing message brought to you by Himi.
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Benjamin Ciscko
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
3
|
Posted - 2015.12.02 21:58:00 -
[51] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Himiko Kuronaga wrote:Also, please remember the title -- Kill interaction.
This other secondary mechanical role stuff is good to talk about, but it's not really where I'm coming from with the message I'm trying to get across about viability. I'm specifically talking about kill interaction and combat viability.
If the scans are coming from somewhere then the only question of relevance to me is whether or not the suit is capable of using that intel to kill people in a competitive environment. And currently, yes. It can. That's all it means to this particular discussion. That's fair, Himiko. My concern is that someone might surmise from the OP that all is good and well with Scouts at the competitive level. That isn't at all the case. Sure, GalScouts with Shotguns might be getting the job done, but what of everything else, from EWAR interplay to Knives to the other 3 Scouts sitting on the sidelines (and why)? "No complaints here ... except maybe that AM Scout" is a dangerous oversimplification of the state of scout play, competitive or otherwise. PS: Wildly unpopular, no doubt, but it could just as readily be argued that Assault nerfs would make for better balanced "kill interaction" than Sentinel buffs. Assaults have lots of room to come down before any other unit could rival their competitive capacity for killing. These units could still be the very best at frontline slaying without standing head-and-shoulders above everything else, or for that matter, toe-to-toe with HMG Heavies.
Cal scout is viable in PC it's okay on SRL and great in Cargo hub (city obviously) min is relegated to speed hacking and being on the outskirts getting the lone knife kill it sucks but that's the way it is if you want to change that then find a use for it. I think buffing the range and precision on the Amarr scout while giving it a 1/5 layout would make it useable. Gal we obviously know is viable. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
12
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 04:37:00 -
[52] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Came expecting trolking and rants.
Floored.
Carry on. Reading carefully. Taking notes. I mean, if you want your fill. CPM2 recognizes that some of you Scouts might be upset by the recent news that the recon and counter-recon functions you were waiting to be improved upon for the past year have instead been stripped away from Scouts and gifted to Logis. And then improved upon. We understand how some of you might find this disappointing. Maybe even shocking. We would've told you a long time ago that this is what CPM planned to do, but NDA. Believe it or not, we've actually been looking out for Scouts this whole time, which is why we planned in advance a very clever way to counteract any potential bad feelings you guys might experience while we take away one of the few things your class has left to work with. Some time back, we asked ourselves what might get you guys super excited but still keep Scouts "balanced" (:: chuckle ::). We're pleased to announce that we figured it out pretty much on our own, and then we put those Devs to work on something huge, just for you! We know you're going to be excited ... Behold! An ever-so-slightly less crappy cloak. It's true! Exactly what you guys wanted, right!? We think this will come in super handy when you Scouts are out doing your Scout jobs. We're not exactly sure what those jobs are or what they're supposed to be. Obviously, not combat. Or recon. You know, Scout stuff. Anywho, have fun guys! But not too much fun!
-CPM2
PS: You're welcome!The Shottini sends his regards.
Shotty-go-bang can get off his ass and address me himself. I'm not in the market for misquoting rants through intermediaries.
Not everything in this thread is going on my list of good ideas, but the presentation definitely inclines me to skip your posts in the future. If that's what you want, please continue.
I will cheerily tell anyone who tries to browbeat or put me in the place they want me to be where they can merrily shove their opinions. 
Because I'm totally the nice guy who actually takes everyone's opinion into account, no matter how insulting or satirical, amirite?
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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DogeGode Master
233
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 06:21:00 -
[53] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Shotty-go-bang can get off his ass and address me himself. I'm not in the market for misquoting rants through intermediaries. Not everything in this thread is going on my list of good ideas, but the presentation definitely inclines me to skip your posts in the future. If that's what you want, please continue. I will cheerily tell anyone who tries to browbeat or put me in the place they want me to be where they can merrily shove their opinions. Because I'm totally the nice guy who actually takes everyone's opinion into account, no matter how insulting or satirical, amirite?
Man I love how CPM2 is so direct with stuff bruuh, I remember CPM 1 didn't say anything significant.
10/10 Keep up the good work <3
Totally not an alt.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
12
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 07:17:00 -
[54] - Quote
Last I checked I wasn't elected for promising to try and play clever word games while stringing people along.
It's a waste of time better spent taking the feedback that people present constructively to the devs.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Luther Mandrix
WASTELAND JUNK REMOVAL
RUST415
698
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 09:07:00 -
[55] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:I like you better when you're like this; when you're constructive.
Just had a thought
Commandos and Heavys get same stats and bonus get rid of the damage bonus for commandos and just make commandos Heavys with two light weapons that have resist to taking damage like sentinal
New Commando
No equipment
Gernade yes
resist to slash damage
resist to a certain factions weapons
Same stats as Sentinal |
PARKOUR PRACTIONER
L0RDS 0F LEGI0N
Damage LLC
4
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 09:13:00 -
[56] - Quote
Mad Syringe wrote:The speed of Heavies is their disadvantage so it should stay as is. BUT, Overheat needs to c hange since it makes it just a big target easy to kill. Resistances are also a good point.
Scouts should not get more e-war capabilities, since they need a disadvantage, especcially when cloaked.
Running a SCOUT in the middle of heavy warfare in a city should be suicidal, and that's exactly what it is right now. The Assault should be the better suit for this scenario. Do not nerf active scanners whatsoever, or the scout will be reign supreme in city sockets again.
I think (as a non assault player) that the assaults are where they belong. Everybody and his mom complained how crap they where, so right now they are the most used suits and that is how it should be.
Logis right now are allrightish, and commandos aswell (though I miss my min bonus for swarms).
BTW, give min Commandos an AV weapon... (Breach MD needs either the firerate of the standard or more direct damage!!!)
A) Agreed sacrifice movement & EWAR for being a Walking turret
B) Remember too, the reason scouts were insane also because of EWAR being unchanged when cloaked, plus lack of cloak delays. EWAR blindness is OK with the cloak because the advantage of harder to see + extra dampening, can't have it all. I don't think scanners need a nerf as EWAR & bonuses should be balanced out between scouts.
PS, not every GS brick tanks with a bons
C) Amarr assault seems obselite? in comparison to the rest, but is the AA an Marksmans suit now or is it UP?
D) Logis have equal scans to scouts pre 1.8 (sorta). I think logis could use a base HP buff or something & EWAR nerf. SL are Cal tech, but i think they were also projectile making it min compatible. The thing I'm worried about is the Nk bonus, take the Swarms let us keep the knves please! Breach MD COULD use a DD buff, for AV only.
Example
Keep flat rate damage against infantry
10% buff to direct hits against vehicles per level IDK just an example
That's just MHO.
Easing from passive to aggressive player
MS & GS, CA, CM, GM, MA, GS, Kampo Logi AKA I is the sun yo
/Z)/V//V
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Sbundo'D
Dead Meta Game
32
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 13:45:00 -
[57] - Quote
PC Scout here, the OP was a really good read, shame about the replies I just slept through
I agree with the OP in almost all of this, the power creep has put the assault top of the list and lost the sentinel.
When I started PC, Heavies were still a force but the nerfs to HMG have weakened them possibly too much..
I may be a Scout, but I want to see all roles play a part so it could be looked into I hope.
- WARNING the HMG is still a deathmachine over improvement should be avoided!!
Resistances for Sentinels.. currently the resistance bonus is not really giving that much defence.. I have considered what buffs to this may achieve increasing to stats to 25/15% bonus at level 5, add some survivability and see how that goes.
Assaults.. too good ?? fitted to scout speed, higher HP and better killers..
Also Myofibs ( a suicidal scout option) really benefit the Assault more than others suits.
Scouts, we do our job, I was always against the last NK buff and would have preferred range OR adhesion
In some cases it has become to easy.. but that depends on situation Vs a Bon's/Alex you want the fight over fast
Bar Scan Profile .. Assaults do it better.
Changes: Cloak red.bonus added to Cloak Field Skill.
Scout Bonus: % to Ewar or Profile Damps. (Damps being most important, the main reason for being a Scout)
Minor adjustment to Cal+Gal racial bonus to make up for the bonus change adding -Scan Profile to all Scouts
Range Amps: Minor Buff
So some thoughts to what I read, only small changes are need for balance.. take Myofibs out and that cuts half of the work, suits are close to perfect currently, bar Scouts having 1 too many downsides and Heavies lack some toughness imo
Don't be a D1CK
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
18
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 15:50:00 -
[58] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Came expecting trolking and rants.
Floored.
Carry on. Reading carefully. Taking notes. The Shottini sends his regards. Shotty-go-bang can get off his ass and address me himself.
Folks are talking Heavy Buffs and Breakin is taking notes? Shocker. Were you taking notes when multiple players predicted that this precise scenario would follow the last round of Assault Buffs? That's how power creep works, Breakin, which is exactly what the folks who saw this coming tried to explain to Aeon in his CPM Feedback thread, before he had it locked for "derailment". Twice.
Issue:
Heavies are rightfully upset b/c Assaults can now go toe-to-toe with them and win.
Cause:
CCP over-buffed the GA Assault and Assault Shield Stats.
Question:
If CCP had not over-buffed the GA Assault and Assault Shield Stats, would Himiko's thread exist?
*** I know you aren't reading anymore, Breakin, but you really should be. There's an opportunity here for you to make things right instead of making things worse. ***
Rather than reassess the power creep which created the issues at hand, we're talking about moar power creep in the form of Sentinel buffs. Say Sentinels get buffed; what would come next? And then after that, and so on. Rattati writes, "How are the improved Commandos, just right amirite?". Not for long, Mr. Rattati. Not if we continue throwing power creep at our balance problems.
At this point, the logical thing to do would be to reassess the changes that created the issue at hand. Firstly, was the GA Assault buff necessary and appropriate? Sure. Was it overdone? Yes. Is there a logical solution? Absolutely; dial it back a little. Secondly, was it necessary and appropriate to try to bring armor and shields into better balance? Absolutely. Did the path CCP take create new balance issues? Indeed; Assaults are too resilient (see Himiko's thread). Are there alternative paths CCP could've taken that would not have caused Assault/Heavy imbalance? Absolutely; it is the path that makes Aeon squeal loudest.
* Dial back slightly the buff to GA Assault RoF
* Dial back slightly the buffs to Assault base shield stats
* Add mobility penalties to Ferroscale Plates
* Increase mobility penalties to Reactive Plates
* Increase mobility penalties to Armor Plates when equipped by non-heavy frames
Free Bonus Learnings
Hypothetical (Assaults vs Heavies):
Imagine where Assault/Heavy kill interaction would be today if CCP had -- in addition to buffing shield stats -- also substantially buffed shield extenders in hopes of bringing armor and shield modules themselves into better balance. Suits like Assaults with high module counts benefit from HP module buffs by far greater degree than suits like Heavies which have low module counts. It stands to reason that Assault/Heavy kill interaction would be even worse than it is now.
Hypothetical (Noobs vs Vets):
Just like Medium Frames benefit from module buffs moreso than Heavy Frames, low-end HP modules benefit from buffs by less degree than high-end HP modules. Had CCP buffed shield extenders in hopes of bringing armor and shield modules into better balance, they would've further widened the gap between Proto and Newbro, making New Player Experience even worse than it is now.
Dropsuit Usage Rates
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Shotty GoBang
Nos Nothi
4
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 15:53:00 -
[59] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Came expecting trolking and rants.
Floored.
Carry on. Reading carefully. Taking notes. The Shottini sends his regards. Shotty-go-bang can get off his ass and address me himself.
Picture in your mind a Breakin Bunny hopping toward two holes:
One hole is called Logic and the other Moar Power Creep.
The Bunnies before Breakin have hopped down Moar Power Creep.
They find themselves facing the same puzzle each time they emerge.
Will our Breakin Bunny break the cycle? |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
12
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 16:06:00 -
[60] - Quote
When you assume things, you only make an ass of U and Me.
Both of you knock it off.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
18
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 16:18:00 -
[61] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:"... feedback that people present constructively ..."
* Dial back slightly the buff to GA Assault RoF
* Dial back slightly the buffs to Assault base shield stats
* Add mobility penalties to Ferroscale Plates
* Increase mobility penalties to Reactive Plates
* Increase mobility penalties to Armor Plates when equipped by non-heavy frames
^ Puts the brakes on power creep. Fixes Himiko's balance problem without creating new balance problems.
* Sentinel Buffs
^ Moar power creep rolls the snowball downhill. Fixes Himiko's balance problem, but in doing so creates new balance problems.
Free constructive feedback. Take it or leave it, but don't say I'm not helpful :-)
Dropsuit Usage Rates
|
Powerh8er
Blood Hammer.
953
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 16:37:00 -
[62] - Quote
The hmg functions more like a shotgun than a machine gun, which doesnt compliment the slow heavy much, except for personal protection, which basically is how the hmg heavies gets most of his kills, by protecting himself.
I personally would gladly accept lower dps or even movement speed for longer range and better dispersion. The assault hmg rework was a step in the right direction though, making the heavies somewhat more versatile.
And you will know me by the trail of vomit.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
12
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 16:54:00 -
[63] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:"... feedback that people present constructively ..." * Dial back slightly the buff to GA Assault RoF
* Dial back slightly the buffs to Assault base shield stats
* Add mobility penalties to Ferroscale Plates
* Increase mobility penalties to Reactive Plates
* Increase mobility penalties to Armor Plates when equipped by non-heavy frames^ Puts the brakes on power creep. Fixes Himiko's balance problem without creating new balance problems.
* Sentinel Buffs ^ Moar power creep rolls the snowball downhill. Fixes Himiko's balance problem, but in doing so creates new balance problems.
Free constructive feedback. Take it or leave it, but don't say I'm not helpful :-) As for assuming things, what else are we to do? We don't hear from Rattati these days, and you CPM guys don't give us much to work with. We're in the dark. Speculation is our only option.
How is it that today you are the scout who is pissing me off the least?
A:being straightforward.
B:getting to the goddamn point
C:not being a condescending ass
WHO ARE YOU AND WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH ADIPEM???
On a serious note I'm not considering more than very incremental and small adjustments to the HMG like maybe put it back to 30m as an initial adjustment and see what happens. The DPS is fine. If you can hit and the hit detection gods favor you.
Sentinels are at best looking at very small tweaks as my recommendations just because if we go back to where we started I will lose my gorram mind. It would be no different than making it so you could shoot from cloak again.
Sweeping adjustments to anything are off the table for me to recommend. One of the things I'm going to recommend to help new scouts is just making the cloak a flat 75% reduction. Past that going to see what can be done for the amscout.
I am not touching the assaults until the actual K/s ratios are released, and I will go from there.
And thank you adipem for just being fcking straightforward. You have no idea how much I am willing to listen to people who do just that. People who try condescending, clever word games will be flat out ignored.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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PARKOUR PRACTIONER
L0RDS 0F LEGI0N
Damage LLC
4
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 17:07:00 -
[64] - Quote
No Shotty, leave the ferros & reactives alone. It's supposed to be a lightweight armor type, reactives have a penalty already, ferros don't but you sacrifice regen for a little buff that wont slow you down. As a GS that uses both I'm probably just bias.
I don't see anything wrong with the shield buff being cal assault, they do there job better now. GA nerf? IDK most GAs (that ive seen) just put a ARR on it anyway. Doesn't mean it doesn't need a nerf but the point of the buff was to encourage using the bonus/many said suit was UP.
If you buff or nerf anything too much the rock-paper-scissors won't apply, not sure what would happen if they stayed as is either.
Easing from passive to aggressive player
MS & GS, CA, CM, GM, MA, GS, Kampo Logi AKA I is the sun yo
/Z)/V//V
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Cesar Geronimo
DUST University
Ivy League
170
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 17:53:00 -
[65] - Quote
CaP XZ wrote:
Think of solo/pub play as well; scouts do need E-war capabilities and heavies do need some speed. Maybe a bonus tweak
I dunno... Does the Min fattie really need to be quicker?? |
Ghost Kaisar
Fatal Absolution
14
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 18:16:00 -
[66] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Came expecting trolking and rants.
Floored.
Carry on. Reading carefully. Taking notes. I mean, if you want your fill. CPM2 recognizes that some of you Scouts might be upset by the recent news that the recon and counter-recon functions you were waiting to be improved upon for the past year have instead been stripped away from Scouts and gifted to Logis. And then improved upon. We understand how some of you might find this disappointing. Maybe even shocking. We would've told you a long time ago that this is what CPM planned to do, but NDA. Believe it or not, we've actually been looking out for Scouts this whole time, which is why we planned in advance a very clever way to counteract any potential bad feelings you guys might experience while we take away one of the few things your class has left to work with. Some time back, we asked ourselves what might get you guys super excited but still keep Scouts "balanced" (:: chuckle ::). We're pleased to announce that we figured it out pretty much on our own, and then we put those Devs to work on something huge, just for you! We know you're going to be excited ... Behold! An ever-so-slightly less crappy cloak. It's true! Exactly what you guys wanted, right!? We think this will come in super handy when you Scouts are out doing your Scout jobs. We're not exactly sure what those jobs are or what they're supposed to be. Obviously, not combat. Or recon. You know, Scout stuff. Anywho, have fun guys! But not too much fun!
-CPM2
PS: You're welcome!The Shottini sends his regards. Shotty-go-bang can get off his ass and address me himself. I'm not in the market for misquoting rants through intermediaries. Not everything in this thread is going on my list of good ideas, but the presentation definitely inclines me to skip your posts in the future. If that's what you want, please continue. I will cheerily tell anyone who tries to browbeat or put me in the place they want me to be where they can merrily shove their opinions. Because I'm totally the nice guy who actually takes everyone's opinion into account, no matter how insulting or satirical, amirite?
I should have put in a disclaimer.
I don't agree with this at all.
At.
All.
I definitely thought that the CPM2 should see it though, hence why I posted it here and gave a link.
Re-Re-Re-Re-Retired PC Scout. I miss the old days ;_;
You never just leave Dust. You story will last forever.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
12
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Posted - 2015.12.03 18:24:00 -
[67] - Quote
My bullsh*t filter is off-kilter dye to sleep issues. Don't have the patience or the attention span to filter that kinda thing right now.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Ghost Kaisar
Fatal Absolution
14
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 18:35:00 -
[68] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:My bullsh*t filter is off-kilter dye to sleep issues. Don't have the patience or the attention span to filter that kinda thing right now.
Since you were kind enough to clarify, you're off my sh*tlist for now.
Unrelated; but do you play EVE with the Goons as well?
What's your stance on the recent Imperium/Kickstarter/Cloud Ring controversy going on?
Re-Re-Re-Re-Retired PC Scout. I miss the old days ;_;
You never just leave Dust. You story will last forever.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
12
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 18:52:00 -
[69] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:My bullsh*t filter is off-kilter dye to sleep issues. Don't have the patience or the attention span to filter that kinda thing right now.
Since you were kind enough to clarify, you're off my sh*tlist for now. No worries, its fine. Unrelated; but do you play EVE with the Goons as well? What's your stance on the recent Imperium/Kickstarter/Cloud Ring controversy going on?
I play with Goons in EVE when my time allows it. Believe it or not, discussing issues and hashing out compromises with most of the CPM can eat a lot of time. Discussing things with devs can eat a lot more. Plus I have a full-time job. So realistically I might have eight miscellaneous hours per week for gaming, assuming I don't get into an argument with someone over some "Brilliant Idea" one of us comes up with. No I do not imply I am innocent of all wrongdoing here.
to the second line of questions, I honestly don't give a crap. Mittens' real life business endeavors do not concern me, nor do the people pitching in.
And if you think the goons need an excuse to start a war, beyond "You're a pubbie therefore you deserve to get your teeth kicked in" You're sadly mistaken.
But the tinfoil is rather humorous to read.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
2
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 18:55:00 -
[70] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:"... feedback that people present constructively ..." * Dial back slightly the buff to GA Assault RoF
* Dial back slightly the buffs to Assault base shield stats
* Add mobility penalties to Ferroscale Plates
* Increase mobility penalties to Reactive Plates
* Increase mobility penalties to Armor Plates when equipped by non-heavy frames^ Puts the brakes on power creep. Fixes Himiko's balance problem without creating new balance problems.
* Sentinel Buffs ^ Moar power creep rolls the snowball downhill. Fixes Himiko's balance problem, but in doing so creates new balance problems.
Free constructive feedback. Take it or leave it, but don't say I'm not helpful :-) As for assuming things, what else are we to do? We don't hear from Rattati these days, and you CPM guys don't give us much to work with. We're in the dark. Speculation is our only option.
I think the problem with sentinels is more a result of the HMG nerfs than the assault shield buffs, or the Gal assault bonus.
Yes the shield buff will have made a small difference to sentinel v assault combat, but very little.
Most sentinel combat is vs shotgun assaults, sometimes shotgun scouts. The assaults are generally fitted for high mobility and shield tanked. Shield assault regen is in a pretty good place. I may not have agreed 100% with all the changes here, but dialing back some of this is probably not the best solution. It would have little effect on sentinel vs assault combat.
I do feel the Gal assault bonus is over the top, but I think Breakin would be right to view the stats before fine-tuning this. It may be shotguns that sentinels struggle with, but ARs are also encroaching on the HMG's domain I feel, and are capable of much better ranged combat.
Power creep is a problem, but it's too late for this cycle, we are half way through. Commandos and logis were buffed to be equal to assaults. Sentinels were nerfed, so long as careful and minor adjustments are considered we can avoid another cycle of power creep. It's too late to avoid the creep that's happened in the past.
Hp mod nerfs would be a nice solution if people weren't against a reduction to TTK. So this probably isn't a good idea without universal weapon damage reductions. Maybe not the best solution.
An argument could be made for shotgun changes, like swapping some alpha for range. But it's a risk to mess with the identity of a weapon so integral to Dust's identity. Not to mention scouts' reliance on it for it's high alpha. A point highlighted in Rattati's recent PC data, showing almost 0 rifle kills with scout suits. |
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Vyuru
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
295
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 19:01:00 -
[71] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:"... feedback that people present constructively ..." * Dial back slightly the buff to GA Assault RoF
* Dial back slightly the buffs to Assault base shield stats
* Add mobility penalties to Ferroscale Plates
* Increase mobility penalties to Reactive Plates
* Increase mobility penalties to Armor Plates when equipped by non-heavy frames^ Puts the brakes on power creep. Fixes Himiko's balance problem without creating new balance problems.
* Sentinel Buffs ^ Moar power creep rolls the snowball downhill. Fixes Himiko's balance problem, but in doing so creates new balance problems.
Free constructive feedback. Take it or leave it, but don't say I'm not helpful :-) As for assuming things, what else are we to do? We don't hear from Rattati these days, and you CPM guys don't give us much to work with. We're in the dark. Speculation is our only option.
My own two cents on this.
I feel that the vanilla AR is the main issue right now with these buffs to Gallente Assaults. I would consider reducing it's max and effective range about 10% or so. The rest of the AR family feels pretty decent where it is at.
What are you thinking when you say adjust assault base shields? (Can't remember what all got changed) Caldari feel like they are in a good place to me shield-wise.
Ferroscale plates should not have a movement penalty IMO. They should be dialed back a bit, 10%-15%, as they are too powerful without a movement penalty IMO.
Reactives I think are good, since armor and repair skills do not effect them.
I don't know what to say about regular armor plates, as I don't run them often on non heavy frames. I might say maybe consider increasing stacking penalties for multiple plates though.
While I don't think Ferroscale plates by themselves are an issue, would it be possible to code it so that each additional armor plate costs say a 1% movement penalty? That way there is some penalty for someone filling up their lows with Ferroscale armor plates.
And lastly, if they do not already, Armor plates should effect jump height. I am fine and happy with Myofibs, but I think some armor based suits get to use them a little too well. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
12
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 19:05:00 -
[72] - Quote
Valroth you pretty much hit the nail on the head where my thoughts are.
Personally, I'm of the opinion of take the assaults, make them the baseline benchmark for overall performance and just get everyone else somewhere on par within their bailiwick. Assaults aren't too horribly far off from balance.
The HMG is what ganked the sentinels. The AHMG is fun as hell and highly amusing, but it doesn't have that raw power feel of the standard HMG. I'd like the feel back, but I don't want the superfatty dominance back.
I want to leave armor as is, get shields on par with armor, then bring the support modules up. Not so much the damage mods, but things like precision enhancers, damps, range extenders, etc. Once we have parity, I want to have a look at close range alpha-dependent weapons like shotguns and nova knives.
The one nerf I wanted was purely to hurt people who fit both plates and extenders. If you have both plates and extenders on the same dropsuit, you double the inherent penalties of each plate and extender (Ferroscales would get 1/3/5% movement penalty enjoyed by plates if extenders are fitted).
I'm outvoted though, so this isn't a CPM-approved course. Just the "Breakin being sadistic again" dream to discourage fitting nothing but HP mods in both slot sets.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Ghost Kaisar
Fatal Absolution
14
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 19:13:00 -
[73] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:My bullsh*t filter is off-kilter dye to sleep issues. Don't have the patience or the attention span to filter that kinda thing right now.
Since you were kind enough to clarify, you're off my sh*tlist for now. No worries, its fine. Unrelated; but do you play EVE with the Goons as well? What's your stance on the recent Imperium/Kickstarter/Cloud Ring controversy going on? I play with Goons in EVE when my time allows it. Believe it or not, discussing issues and hashing out compromises with most of the CPM can eat a lot of time. Discussing things with devs can eat a lot more. Plus I have a full-time job. So realistically I might have eight miscellaneous hours per week for gaming, assuming I don't get into an argument with someone over some "Brilliant Idea" one of us comes up with. No I do not imply I am innocent of all wrongdoing here. to the second line of questions, I honestly don't give a crap. Mittens' real life business endeavors do not concern me, nor do the people pitching in. And if you think the goons need an excuse to start a war, beyond "You're a pubbie therefore you deserve to get your teeth kicked in" You're sadly mistaken. But the tinfoil is rather humorous to read.
Was curious. I've seen tons of stuff flying around all over the place, but you're kinda the only Goon I've ever actually talked to. I try not to draw conclusions before getting some input.
Re-Re-Re-Re-Retired PC Scout. I miss the old days ;_;
You never just leave Dust. You story will last forever.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
Learning Alliance
7
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 20:30:00 -
[74] - Quote
Krixus Flux wrote:But when the heavy was doing its Terminator thing, the tears flowed. Heavily. The heavy as it is now is a result of that.
I think that is why his Theseus suggests buffing Heavy HP rather than buffing Heavy DPS. The TTK against the lighter suits is correct, it is the TTK against the Heavy's which is low.
HMG Sentinels killing faster causes more QQ because people die before they can react.
HMG Sentinels taking longer to kill would not be as much of an issue for lighter suits because only an idiot would try to go head to head with an HMG Sentinel in a DPS race when the advantage of the lighter suits comes from their speed and reach. Proper use of cover or range would still allow Assault suits to take out higher HP Sentinels. But higher HP would make the Sentinel harder to get past in a defensive role.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Himiko Kuronaga
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
6
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 20:50:00 -
[75] - Quote
For the record, I don't personally view power creep as a totally bad thing. Moreso, its an inevitable thing that has negative consequences. But when you look at balance as a whole, the opposite is also true. As long as balance passes are regular and non-biased enough, it can actually keep an otherwise stagnant game interesting. Regressing tends to have the opposite effect. Nobody gets excited when something they enjoyed gets nerfed or removed.
That said, when it comes right down to it we have two roads ahead of us when it comes to this particular problem. The power creep route would be to buff heavy EHP. This route is the correct route to take if we are comfortable with the TTK between all non-heavy suits, but want the heavy itself to last longer.
The other route is the nerf/regression route, and pretty much would involve either nerfing the damage values on everything that isn't a heavy or nerfing the damage on pretty much every weapon to create a longer TTK across the board.
I would not personally support adding any further movement penalties to any module. The game has gotten slower and slower since Uprising came out. I really don't think we need another dose of that. I know a lot of players who are fairly unhappy with the current speed it is at as well. Another speed nerf would probably be the final nail in the coffin for them.
This is a positive and endearing message brought to you by Himi.
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Sbundo'D
Dead Meta Game
36
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Posted - 2015.12.03 21:03:00 -
[76] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:Krixus Flux wrote:But when the heavy was doing its Terminator thing, the tears flowed. Heavily. The heavy as it is now is a result of that. I think that is why his Theseus suggests buffing Heavy HP rather than buffing Heavy DPS. The TTK against the lighter suits is correct, it is the TTK against the Heavy's which is low. HMG Sentinels killing faster causes more QQ because people die before they can react. HMG Sentinels taking longer to kill would not be as much of an issue for lighter suits because only an idiot would try to go head to head with an HMG Sentinel in a DPS race when the advantage of the lighter suits comes from their speed and reach. Proper use of cover or range would still allow Assault suits to take out higher HP Sentinels. But higher HP would make the Sentinel harder to get past in a defensive role.
Increase HP by increasing the resistance bonuses
Don't be a D1CK
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Megaman Trigger
OSG Planetary Operations
932
|
Posted - 2015.12.03 22:42:00 -
[77] - Quote
Sbundo'D wrote:Fox Gaden wrote:Krixus Flux wrote:But when the heavy was doing its Terminator thing, the tears flowed. Heavily. The heavy as it is now is a result of that. I think that is why his Theseus suggests buffing Heavy HP rather than buffing Heavy DPS. The TTK against the lighter suits is correct, it is the TTK against the Heavy's which is low. HMG Sentinels killing faster causes more QQ because people die before they can react. HMG Sentinels taking longer to kill would not be as much of an issue for lighter suits because only an idiot would try to go head to head with an HMG Sentinel in a DPS race when the advantage of the lighter suits comes from their speed and reach. Proper use of cover or range would still allow Assault suits to take out higher HP Sentinels. But higher HP would make the Sentinel harder to get past in a defensive role. Increase HP by increasing the resistance bonuses
That'd only work if we Sentinels had resistances to all damage types rather than specific ones bases on race or we had some sort of a Sentinel only Resistance Mod.
Purifier. First Class.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
Learning Alliance
7
|
Posted - 2015.12.04 13:28:00 -
[78] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:When I talk about the Terminator thing, I want to put this scene in your mind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnGVoiJj3ngNotice its not all about dishing out damage as much as shrugging it off. Heavies have not really done this in recent memory. We don't really have any particular suit that fills the "soak up damage" role effectively, and you'd assume the heavy would be a dead ringer for it. Am I wrong in assuming the heavy should be filling this role? In the other end of the spectrum, we have this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RbL4PwTDsQNot what I'm aiming for, unless SERIOUS restrictions got applied to heavy deployment lol.
I think that was an Assault HMG in that second clip. Watch how it rips LAV's appart. 
I think the base model HMG's advantage over the Assault Rifle should be its clip size and ability for continuous fire, rather than its up front DPS. (DPS should still be higher, but only because of the range/DPS ratio.)
The Burst is the big upfront DPS HMG, but in its current configuration that is heavily balanced by heat buildup and running our of Ammo so much faster. I would leave the Burst as is, as it requires a lot of player skill to be effective, and has limitations even when used correctly, but it still provides a very different play style choice for those who like the big upfront punch. (Options are good.)
The Assault HMG (Should be called the Breach) does less DPS than the base model due to the range/DPS ratio, but does have that extra range, and damage to vehicles.
Those 3 variations provide 3 very different styles of play, but I think they would all be balanced on a slow moving, high HP Sentinel.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
Learning Alliance
7
|
Posted - 2015.12.04 14:04:00 -
[79] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Himiko Kuronaga wrote:In a proper competitive match scouts don't need their own radar because they have dedicated active scanners helping them as it is. Damps are where they find their strength. Due to this, gal scouts are the most viable. Cal scouts are viable up until focused scanners on gal logis come out, or if the opposing team brings out a logibros which can passively scan up to 50 meters at 17db. Min scouts are suicide fast hackers and they do this role well.
In short, the "scout" doesn't have issues if you refer to the scout simply as the gal scout. The other ones, yes, have problems.
I would disagree about the assault thing. In terms of purely selfish rockstar play, there is nothing better. In the end the goal is to kill the other team and no other suit does it better. So ... Scout EWAR is fine because GalLogi scans are OP. FAscinating logic you've got there. Passive and active scans are difficult to directly compare. I'd rather all scouts were capable of effective stealth before worrying too much about scanning. Supporting a team with scanning is a role more suited to logis. Scouts need scanning to help evasion and combat. They aren't in a bad place in this regard. They don't need to easily see everyone's positions over a large area.
It would be nice if any person or vehicle we targeted so that their health bar displays, would show on our team's TacNet. Then Scout's speed and stealth would allow them to effectively scout in an active way (by targeting Snipers, Tanks, and defenders), which I think would be much better than back when Scout Passive Scans made a Caldari Scout hiding in a corner an effective role. It would also make the Overwatch Sniper more effective as Overwatch, even in PUB matches where no one is on coms.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
2
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Posted - 2015.12.04 14:38:00 -
[80] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:
It would be nice if any person or vehicle we targeted so that their health bar displays, would show on our team's TacNet. Then Scout's speed and stealth would allow them to effectively scout in an active way (by targeting Snipers, Tanks, and defenders), which I think would be much better than back when Scout Passive Scans made a Caldari Scout hiding in a corner an effective role. It would also make the Overwatch Sniper more effective as Overwatch, even in PUB matches where no one is on coms.
It's a nice idea, so long as it's not extended to what we had upon release of uprising, where just sight of anyone broadcasted their location to your whole team.
Don't confuse the term "scout" with "recon" however. It's not necessary to show enemy positions to your team in order to scout. The term is referring to operating ahead of your main force. This can be rapid deployment/response, set up for your main force, and operation behind enemy lines, including target assassination, flanking and disruption. Relaying information can certainly be included in that, but unlike what I hear sometimes here on the forums, relaying information is not necessary for a unit to be a scout, regardless of how the role may exist in real life military. |
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l-o-i-c
DUST University
Ivy League
0
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Posted - 2015.12.04 14:42:00 -
[81] - Quote
I am confident that the assaults would still pull ahead if they had 1 less slot than they currently do, or if the other suits only had -1 slot compared to the assaults. More slots to play around with could potentially lead to more viable fittings for the other classes.
Maybe Ra Ta Tas have that fancy racial slot layout chart laying around somewhere... I thought that it was a good idea back then, and it would make for a progression on the whole tiericide (well slot layout normalization between tiers). I think the racial layouts were - cal 5h, 2l - min 4h, 3l - gal 3h, 4l - ama 2h, 5l. I imagine that normalizing slot layout between classes would make balancing modules more straight forward since the potential increases for fixed value modules would remain the same regardless of suit which would make tweaking the baseline suit stats comparatively clearer. |
Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
Learning Alliance
7
|
Posted - 2015.12.04 14:49:00 -
[82] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Fox Gaden wrote:
It would be nice if any person or vehicle we targeted so that their health bar displays, would show on our team's TacNet. Then Scout's speed and stealth would allow them to effectively scout in an active way (by targeting Snipers, Tanks, and defenders), which I think would be much better than back when Scout Passive Scans made a Caldari Scout hiding in a corner an effective role. It would also make the Overwatch Sniper more effective as Overwatch, even in PUB matches where no one is on coms.
It's a nice idea, so long as it's not extended to what we had upon release of uprising, where just sight of anyone broadcasted their location to your whole team. Don't confuse the term "scout" with "recon" however. It's not necessary to show enemy positions to your team in order to scout. The term is referring to operating ahead of your main force. This can be rapid deployment/response, set up for your main force, and operation behind enemy lines, including target assassination, flanking and disruption. Relaying information can certainly be included in that, but unlike what I hear sometimes here on the forums, relaying information is not necessary for a unit to be a scout, regardless of how the role may exist in real life military.
To confirm, I meant that you would have to put them in your sights to flag them for the TacNet. It is something the Sniper Community thought was in the game two years ago, but it turned out to be just a rumor (like the old rummer that sprinting increased your scan profile).
You make a good point about Scouts vs Recon, but Recon is still one of the Roles that Scouts are well suited to perform.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
2
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Posted - 2015.12.04 15:07:00 -
[83] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:Fox Gaden wrote:
It would be nice if any person or vehicle we targeted so that their health bar displays, would show on our team's TacNet. Then Scout's speed and stealth would allow them to effectively scout in an active way (by targeting Snipers, Tanks, and defenders), which I think would be much better than back when Scout Passive Scans made a Caldari Scout hiding in a corner an effective role. It would also make the Overwatch Sniper more effective as Overwatch, even in PUB matches where no one is on coms.
It's a nice idea, so long as it's not extended to what we had upon release of uprising, where just sight of anyone broadcasted their location to your whole team. Don't confuse the term "scout" with "recon" however. It's not necessary to show enemy positions to your team in order to scout. The term is referring to operating ahead of your main force. This can be rapid deployment/response, set up for your main force, and operation behind enemy lines, including target assassination, flanking and disruption. Relaying information can certainly be included in that, but unlike what I hear sometimes here on the forums, relaying information is not necessary for a unit to be a scout, regardless of how the role may exist in real life military. To confirm, I meant that you would have to put them in your sights to flag them for the TacNet. It is something the Sniper Community thought was in the game two years ago, but it turned out to be just a rumor ( like the old rummer that sprinting increased your scan profile). You make a good point about Scouts vs Recon, but Recon is still one of the Roles that Scouts are well suited to perform.
It's potentially a nice idea.
And I agree with you about scouts. I just felt I should comment because I sometimes here people say "let scouts actually scout, they don't need to kill, just relay information". Which is a gross misunderstanding of the role. But I see that's not where you were going with this. |
Fox Gaden
Immortal Guides
Learning Alliance
7
|
Posted - 2015.12.04 17:41:00 -
[84] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Power creep is a problem, but it's too late for this cycle, we are half way through. Commandos and logis were buffed to be equal to assaults. Sentinels were nerfed, so long as careful and minor adjustments are considered we can avoid another cycle of power creep. It's too late to avoid the creep that's happened in the past.
I think this is a good response to Adipem Nothi's suggestion to Nerf Assaults to counter power creep. If the other suits are relatively balanced combat wise against the Assault suit, then it makes seance to balance Sentinels against Assaults at their current level.
I also think that it is better to buff Sentinels through base HP than through DPS.
Higher HP Sentinels don't flip the balance against Rifle Assaults the way higher DPS Sentinels would. A higher HP Sentinel just means an Assault may need to take cover to reload, or retreat back to the next cover before finishing the Sentinel off. It would mean Assaults would need to use a bit more play skill to take down a Sentinel 1 v 1, rather than just doing a shimi while going head to head in the open. 1 v 1 fights in the open should go to the Sentinel due to Rock/Paper/Scissors balancing.
My only concern would be the Alpha damage weapons used by Scouts. If it takes more than 3 shots to kill a Sentinel then Scouts become less effective against Sentinels. On the other hand, if that Officer Shotgun required 1 extra shot to take out a Sentinel, then maybe it would not be as OP anymore.
So in buffing Sentinel base health it would need to be enough to make a difference vs rifles, but not too much to make Shotguns ineffective.
Remember that it is supposed to be Sentinels (rock) > Assault (Scissors) > Scout (Paper) > Sentinel (Rock), so we need to make sure any Sentinel Buff does not give Sentinels the advantage over Scouts. Keeping in mind however that the Rock/Paper/Scissors balance advantages are only supposed to be slight so that they can be overcome using tactical play.
Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
18
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Posted - 2015.12.04 18:15:00 -
[85] - Quote
Fox Gaden wrote:
I think this is a good response to Adipem Nothi's suggestion to Nerf Assaults to counter power creep. If the other suits are relatively balanced combat wise against the Assault suit, then it makes seance to balance Sentinels against Assaults at their current level.
I don't know that this is a safe assumption, Fox. In my personal opinion, Assaults are in substantially better shape combat-wise than Scouts, Commandos and Heavies. Usage rates are heavily skewed in their favor:
http://dust.thang.dk/market_tryhardinator.php (thanks for the update, G Clone)
If Scouts and Commandos were balanced against Assaults, then absolutely, yes, bring Heavies up-to-par. But I don't believe that this is the case. Bringing Heavies up-to-par with Assaults will leave Scouts and Commandos further behind.
Dropsuit Usage Rates
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
2
|
Posted - 2015.12.04 22:44:00 -
[86] - Quote
Comandos just got quite a lot of buffs. I don't think the usage rates will have properly reflected this yet. Also, commandos have quite a niche role, they are unlikely to be be balanced and have high usage rates. That just leaves scouts and sentinels.
Concerns about alpha weapons is partly why I recommend resistance over hp. Nova knives shouldn't be affected as they technically aren't one of the standard damage types
Also, I disagree about the rock - paper - scissors idea when it comes to scouts and sentinels. In my opinion scout vs sentinel is reasonably balanced. |
Himiko Kuronaga
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
6
|
Posted - 2015.12.04 22:50:00 -
[87] - Quote
I briefly thought about how the game would play if Sentinels worked with locational damage profiles. Meaning, weaker from behind and tougher up front. Sorta like how tanks have a weakspot in the back.
Well, it's a fun idea in theory anyway. Still gives the scouts a skill-based approach to dropping heavies, gives the heavy a clear advantage in dueling assaults, but also ensures that assaults have a method of winning, even if its trickier.
Hah, well again its just a fun idea. Not sure if thats the kind of thing that's programmable or not at this stage.
This is a positive and endearing message brought to you by Himi.
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Mad Syringe
Carbon 7
839
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Posted - 2015.12.07 11:51:00 -
[88] - Quote
Speed is the fotm right now.
Hit detection is at it's badest with speed tanked suits.
So no more nerfs to plates, since they are not used that much anyway.
Sentinels should be able to run plates without speed reduction. Right now I've heard FC's telling their Sents to put kinkats on their suts instead of plates... This says it all!
The hmg kick reduction should be put back to heat reduction, so Sents could shoot longer (overheated they are easy prey).
Finally, I would love to see resistance mods, to counter some overused weapons (Bon's are the bane of heavies)
The idea to give scouts a scanning option with their weapons seems to be reasonable. So if they have a red hitmarker, the person marked becomes visible for the whole team. This should work however only with direct line of sight...
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
18
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Posted - 2015.12.07 13:36:00 -
[89] - Quote
Mad Syringe wrote:Speed is the fotm right now.
Hit detection is at it's badest with speed tanked suits.
"So no more nerfs to plates, since they are not used that much anyway."
Top 10 Modules (Current)
Module Sales (May-Nov)
Come again?
Dropsuit Usage Rates
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
2
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 14:20:00 -
[90] - Quote
To be fair, most well fitted suits use ferroscale and reactive over armour plates. It's the double strafe penalty that makes them bad. I understand it was needed to combat the efficiency that plates provided for scouts, but it is a bad design and makes the extra hp not really worth it.
Hp mods should always have been percentage based, then we wouldn't have this problem. |
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
18
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Posted - 2015.12.07 16:19:00 -
[91] - Quote
IIRC, Rattati implemented a scout-specific strafe penalty to plates somewhere around HF Delta. If plate movement penalties can be applied on a frame-by-frame basis, it stands to reason that movement penalties could be lessened when plates are equipped by Sentinels (or all heavy frames, for that matter). If such a thing is possible, and heavy/sentinel/commando performance is down, I can't think of any good reason why not to try it.
As for most people preferring ferro, that would make sense. What other module in the game can you stack without diminishing returns or a single drawback/penalty?
Dropsuit Usage Rates
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Echo 1991
Titans of Phoenix
Damage LLC
1
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 17:01:00 -
[92] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:To be fair, most well fitted suits use ferroscale and reactive over armour plates. It's the double strafe penalty that makes them bad. I understand it was needed to combat the efficiency that plates provided for scouts, but it is a bad design and makes the extra hp not really worth it.
Hp mods should always have been percentage based, then we wouldn't have this problem.
Hp mods being % based is never a good idea. Heavies would gain such a huge advantage it would be impossible to kill them if they had logis strapped to them.
Wanna play eve?
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
2
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Posted - 2015.12.07 17:22:00 -
[93] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:IIRC, Rattati implemented a scout-specific strafe penalty to plates somewhere around HF Delta. If plate movement penalties can be applied on a frame-by-frame basis, it stands to reason that movement penalties could be lessened when plates are equipped by Sentinels (or all heavy frames, for that matter). If such a thing is possible, and heavy/sentinel/commando performance is down, I can't think of any good reason why not to try it.
As for most people preferring ferro, that would make sense. What other module in the game can you stack without diminishing returns or a single drawback/penalty?
Edit: I'd even get behind a no penalty, low penalty, high penalty scale when equipping vanilla plates on heavy, medium or light frames (respectively). In hindsight, HP Modules penalties would've probably been a better fix for Assault Lite than kneecapping Scout EWAR.
I thought Rattati wanted a scout-only penalty but couldn't do it so implemented the strafe penalty for all plated suits. It was just hoped that scouts would suffer more from a strafe penalty than other suits.
As it turns out this is wrong. Strafe is useful on all suits and the strafe penalty just makes plates a poor option on anything. Balance-wise this was good for scout balance. Plates on scouts was OP, so nerfing them effectively nerfed scout's ability to fit like an assault, as intended. But served to make the modules poor on other suits too.
Unless I'm wrong and it is a scout-only penalty. I'll try to find out. This uncertainty just highlights a reason why it was a bad idea though, as there is no in-game description of extra strafing penalties. So no way for players to know about it other than finding old forum posts.
I don't want to heavily armour scout suits. I just don't like a rather strange and obscure mechanic like double plate strafe penalties. |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
18
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Posted - 2015.12.07 17:28:00 -
[94] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:IIRC, Rattati implemented a scout-specific strafe penalty to plates somewhere around HF Delta. If plate movement penalties can be applied on a frame-by-frame basis, it stands to reason that movement penalties could be lessened when plates are equipped by Sentinels (or all heavy frames, for that matter). If such a thing is possible, and heavy/sentinel/commando performance is down, I can't think of any good reason why not to try it.
As for most people preferring ferro, that would make sense. What other module in the game can you stack without diminishing returns or a single drawback/penalty?
Edit: I'd even get behind a no penalty, low penalty, high penalty scale when equipping vanilla plates on heavy, medium or light frames (respectively). In hindsight, HP Modules penalties would've probably been a better fix for Assault Lite than kneecapping Scout EWAR. I thought Rattati wanted a scout-only penalty but couldn't do it so implemented the strafe penalty for all plated suits. It was just hoped that scouts would suffer more from a strafe penalty than other suits. As it turns out this is wrong. Strafe is useful on all suits and the strafe penalty just makes plates a poor option on anything. Balance-wise this was good for scout balance. Plates on scouts was OP, so nerfing them effectively nerfed scout's ability to fit like an assault, as intended. But served to make the modules poor on other suits too. Unless I'm wrong and it is a scout-only penalty. I'll try to find out. This uncertainty just highlights a reason why it was a bad idea though, as there is no in-game description of extra strafing penalties. So no way for players to know about it other than finding old forum posts. I don't want to heavily armour scout suits. I just don't like a rather strange and obscure mechanic like double plate strafe penalties.
You could be right, but that's not how I remember it. I believe that he succeeded in applying the add'l plate penalty to Scouts. I'll try to help find the Dev post.
Dropsuit Usage Rates
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
2
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Posted - 2015.12.07 17:34:00 -
[95] - Quote
Echo 1991 wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:To be fair, most well fitted suits use ferroscale and reactive over armour plates. It's the double strafe penalty that makes them bad. I understand it was needed to combat the efficiency that plates provided for scouts, but it is a bad design and makes the extra hp not really worth it.
Hp mods should always have been percentage based, then we wouldn't have this problem. Hp mods being % based is never a good idea. Heavies would gain such a huge advantage it would be impossible to kill them if they had logis strapped to them.
Not necessarily. I'm not saying it would be balanced if that was all you changed. But you could look at tweaking some base hp values and other things and come up with a balanced solution. Plenty of posts in this thread as asking for more survivability for sentinels.
Also, imagine if scouts could be balanced in a way where they didn't need any hp mods. At the moment they need the relatively large percentage increase that hp mods provide, after the essential speed and stealth. Alternatively scout could have slightly higher base hp?
For reference, say complex shield extenders gave +15% sheild hp. Assuming base hp remained the same, this would be:
+98 shields on a sentinel
+52 shields on an assault
+24 shields on a scout |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
18
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Posted - 2015.12.07 17:37:00 -
[96] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:I'll try to help find the Dev post.
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2469069#post2469069
(not sure what ultimately came of this)
Dropsuit Usage Rates
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
2
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 17:55:00 -
[97] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:I'll try to help find the Dev post. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2469069#post2469069Not 100% certain what ultimately came of this, but the intent to fix uparmored scouts without hurting heavies was made clear. Point remains, if Rattati was successful in applying a frame-specific penalty, he could do the "inverse" and lessen plate penalties for heavies. If tinkering with plates is on the table, adding some form of drawback to stacking ferroscale would be nice.
Haven't found the information about what was implemented. I still think the strafe penalty was for all suits in the end, but I'll keep searching.
I did discover this gem from Rattati though:
"With team based scans, we need to react immediately, there is too much scanning going on without effort. Further buffs and nerfs to scanning will follow with EWAR shake-up initiative
FocusedActive Scanner: Only squad sharenerf
[Base range100m75mnerf] - removed
[Base visibility from 5 to 35 seconds3 secondsnerf] - removed"
It's hard to see from my quote, but reading the thread shows that Rattati's original intention was to nerf focussed scanners to 75m and 3 second duration. However, he swapped this nerf for making the results only squad-share, pending further evaluation at a later date. As the squad-share function has now been unintentionally removed as a result in the implementation of platoons, this is strong evidence that the nerf to range to 75m should be implemented as Rattati originally envisaged. |
Echo 1991
Titans of Phoenix
Damage LLC
1
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 17:56:00 -
[98] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Echo 1991 wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:To be fair, most well fitted suits use ferroscale and reactive over armour plates. It's the double strafe penalty that makes them bad. I understand it was needed to combat the efficiency that plates provided for scouts, but it is a bad design and makes the extra hp not really worth it.
Hp mods should always have been percentage based, then we wouldn't have this problem. Hp mods being % based is never a good idea. Heavies would gain such a huge advantage it would be impossible to kill them if they had logis strapped to them. Not necessarily. I'm not saying it would be balanced if that was all you changed. But you could look at tweaking some base hp values and other things and come up with a balanced solution. Plenty of posts in this thread are asking for more survivability for sentinels. Also, imagine if scouts could be balanced in a way where they didn't need any hp mods. At the moment they need the relatively large percentage increase that hp mods provide, after the essential speed and stealth. Alternatively scouts could have slightly higher base hp? For reference, say complex shield extenders gave +15% shield hp. Assuming base hp remained the same, this would be: +98 shields on a sentinel +52 shields on an assault +24 shields on a scout As a bonus, this would really encourage racial tanking styles. Which is something the CPM have specifically been looking into. Obviously this would be a nerf for scouts, so something would have to be looked at for balance.
As long as its all balanced and works fine I'm all for it, I just don't want things to get broken further.
Wanna play eve?
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
2
|
Posted - 2015.12.07 18:16:00 -
[99] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:I'll try to help find the Dev post. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2469069#post2469069Not 100% certain what ultimately came of this, but the intent to fix uparmored scouts without hurting heavies was made clear. Point remains, if Rattati was successful in applying a frame-specific penalty, he could do the "inverse" and lessen plate penalties for heavies. If tinkering with plates is on the table, adding some form of drawback to stacking ferroscale would be nice.
Hotfix echo
I've found it.
You will see that where it says strafe penalty on plate is doubled, the bit that says "on scouts" is crossed out. Implying the strafe penalty is on all suits. |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
18
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Posted - 2015.12.07 18:41:00 -
[100] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:I'll try to help find the Dev post. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2469069#post2469069Not 100% certain what ultimately came of this, but the intent to fix uparmored scouts without hurting heavies was made clear. Point remains, if Rattati was successful in applying a frame-specific penalty, he could do the "inverse" and lessen plate penalties for heavies. If tinkering with plates is on the table, adding some form of drawback to stacking ferroscale would be nice. Hotfix echoI've found it. You will see that where it says strafe penalty on plate is doubled, the bit that says "on scouts" is crossed out. Implying the strafe penalty is on all suits.
Sure enough! Never noticed that! Great catch, Varoth. I now believe you're right, though I would point out that the four months passed between the Nov 2014 thread (above) and HF Echo in March of 2015. Could be that we're dealing with two distinct sets of changes, though that seems less likely that what you've described.
Assuming you're correct, here's another approach. Do you think the wiring is in place to restrict modules by frame type? If it can be done for Heavy Weapons, couldn't the same be done for "Heavy Plates"?
Dropsuit Usage Rates
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Himiko Kuronaga
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
6
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Posted - 2015.12.07 18:52:00 -
[101] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:I'll try to help find the Dev post. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2469069#post2469069Not 100% certain what ultimately came of this, but the intent to fix uparmored scouts without hurting heavies was made clear. Point remains, if Rattati was successful in applying a frame-specific penalty, he could do the "inverse" and lessen plate penalties for heavies. If tinkering with plates is on the table, adding some form of drawback to stacking ferroscale would be nice. Hotfix echoI've found it. You will see that where it says strafe penalty on plate is doubled, the bit that says "on scouts" is crossed out. Implying the strafe penalty is on all suits. Sure enough! Never noticed that! Great catch, Varoth. I now believe you're right, though I would point out that the four months passed between the Nov 2014 thread (above) and HF Echo in March of 2015. Could be that we're dealing with two distinct sets of changes, though that seems less likely that what you've described.
Assuming you're correct, here's another approach. Do you think the wiring is in place to restrict modules by frame type? If it can be done for Heavy Weapons, couldn't the same be done for "Heavy Plates"?
Just do it the same way you do cloaks tbh. Big fitting cost, big fitting reduction skill built-in.
This is a positive and endearing message brought to you by Himi.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
18
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Posted - 2015.12.07 19:00:00 -
[102] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:I'll try to help find the Dev post. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2469069#post2469069Not 100% certain what ultimately came of this, but the intent to fix uparmored scouts without hurting heavies was made clear. Point remains, if Rattati was successful in applying a frame-specific penalty, he could do the "inverse" and lessen plate penalties for heavies. If tinkering with plates is on the table, adding some form of drawback to stacking ferroscale would be nice. Hotfix echoI've found it. You will see that where it says strafe penalty on plate is doubled, the bit that says "on scouts" is crossed out. Implying the strafe penalty is on all suits. Sure enough! Never noticed that! Great catch, Varoth. I now believe you're right, though I would point out that the four months passed between the Nov 2014 thread (above) and HF Echo in March of 2015. Could be that we're dealing with two distinct sets of changes, though that seems less likely that what you've described.
Assuming you're correct, here's another approach. Do you think the wiring is in place to restrict modules by frame type? If it can be done for Heavy Weapons, couldn't the same be done for "Heavy Plates"? Just do it the same way you do cloaks tbh. Big fitting cost, big fitting reduction skill built-in.
Yep, that'd work. Could use existing in-game items instead of creating new. Like Varoth says, no one (who knows what they're doing, at least) runs vanilla plates on other frames. So ...
Step 1: Dramatically increase resource requirements for vanilla Armor Plates.
Step 2: Add class-wide perk to Heavies and Sentinels which offsets the increase.
Step 3: Decrease movement penalties for vanilla Armor Plates.
Voila! Happier Heavies. Balancing Armor-v-Shields for Medium and Light Frames just got that much easier.
Dropsuit Usage Rates
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Benjamin Ciscko
Fatal Absolution
Bleeding Sun Conglomerate
3
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Posted - 2015.12.07 22:58:00 -
[103] - Quote
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