DUST Search - Heavy vs Assault vs Scout -- Himi's view on kill interaction

Varoth Drac wrote:

Adipem Nothi wrote:

Himiko Kuronaga wrote:

In a proper competitive match scouts don't need their own radar because they have dedicated active scanners helping them as it is. Damps are where they find their strength. Due to this, gal scouts are the most viable. Cal scouts are viable up until focused scanners on gal logis come out, or if the opposing team brings out a logibros which can passively scan up to 50 meters at 17db. Min scouts are suicide fast hackers and they do this role well.

In short, the "scout" doesn't have issues if you refer to the scout simply as the gal scout. The other ones, yes, have problems.

I would disagree about the assault thing. In terms of purely selfish rockstar play, there is nothing better. In the end the goal is to kill the other team and no other suit does it better.

So ... Scout EWAR is fine because GalLogi scans are OP. FAscinating logic you've got there.

Passive and active scans are difficult to directly compare. I'd rather all scouts were capable of effective stealth before worrying too much about scanning.

Supporting a team with scanning is a role more suited to logis. Scouts need scanning to help evasion and combat. They aren't in a bad place in this regard. They don't need to easily see everyone's positions over a large area.

Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.


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Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 7	Posted - 2015.12.03 20:30:00 - [1] - Quote Krixus Flux wrote: But when the heavy was doing its Terminator thing, the tears flowed. Heavily. The heavy as it is now is a result of that. I think that is why his Theseus suggests buffing Heavy HP rather than buffing Heavy DPS. The TTK against the lighter suits is correct, it is the TTK against the Heavy's which is low. HMG Sentinels killing faster causes more QQ because people die before they can react. HMG Sentinels taking longer to kill would not be as much of an issue for lighter suits because only an idiot would try to go head to head with an HMG Sentinel in a DPS race when the advantage of the lighter suits comes from their speed and reach. Proper use of cover or range would still allow Assault suits to take out higher HP Sentinels. But higher HP would make the Sentinel harder to get past in a defensive role. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 7	Posted - 2015.12.04 13:28:00 - [2] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: When I talk about the Terminator thing, I want to put this scene in your mind. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnGVoiJj3ng Notice its not all about dishing out damage as much as shrugging it off. Heavies have not really done this in recent memory. We don't really have any particular suit that fills the "soak up damage" role effectively, and you'd assume the heavy would be a dead ringer for it. Am I wrong in assuming the heavy should be filling this role? In the other end of the spectrum, we have this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RbL4PwTDsQ Not what I'm aiming for, unless SERIOUS restrictions got applied to heavy deployment lol. I think that was an Assault HMG in that second clip. Watch how it rips LAV's appart. I think the base model HMG's advantage over the Assault Rifle should be its clip size and ability for continuous fire, rather than its up front DPS. (DPS should still be higher, but only because of the range/DPS ratio.) The Burst is the big upfront DPS HMG, but in its current configuration that is heavily balanced by heat buildup and running our of Ammo so much faster. I would leave the Burst as is, as it requires a lot of player skill to be effective, and has limitations even when used correctly, but it still provides a very different play style choice for those who like the big upfront punch. (Options are good.) The Assault HMG (Should be called the Breach) does less DPS than the base model due to the range/DPS ratio, but does have that extra range, and damage to vehicles. Those 3 variations provide 3 very different styles of play, but I think they would all be balanced on a slow moving, high HP Sentinel. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 7	Posted - 2015.12.04 14:04:00 - [3] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Himiko Kuronaga wrote: In a proper competitive match scouts don't need their own radar because they have dedicated active scanners helping them as it is. Damps are where they find their strength. Due to this, gal scouts are the most viable. Cal scouts are viable up until focused scanners on gal logis come out, or if the opposing team brings out a logibros which can passively scan up to 50 meters at 17db. Min scouts are suicide fast hackers and they do this role well. In short, the "scout" doesn't have issues if you refer to the scout simply as the gal scout. The other ones, yes, have problems. I would disagree about the assault thing. In terms of purely selfish rockstar play, there is nothing better. In the end the goal is to kill the other team and no other suit does it better. So ... Scout EWAR is fine because GalLogi scans are OP. FAscinating logic you've got there. Passive and active scans are difficult to directly compare. I'd rather all scouts were capable of effective stealth before worrying too much about scanning. Supporting a team with scanning is a role more suited to logis. Scouts need scanning to help evasion and combat. They aren't in a bad place in this regard. They don't need to easily see everyone's positions over a large area. It would be nice if any person or vehicle we targeted so that their health bar displays, would show on our team's TacNet. Then Scout's speed and stealth would allow them to effectively scout in an active way (by targeting Snipers, Tanks, and defenders), which I think would be much better than back when Scout Passive Scans made a Caldari Scout hiding in a corner an effective role. It would also make the Overwatch Sniper more effective as Overwatch, even in PUB matches where no one is on coms. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 7	Posted - 2015.12.04 14:49:00 - [4] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Fox Gaden wrote: It would be nice if any person or vehicle we targeted so that their health bar displays, would show on our team's TacNet. Then Scout's speed and stealth would allow them to effectively scout in an active way (by targeting Snipers, Tanks, and defenders), which I think would be much better than back when Scout Passive Scans made a Caldari Scout hiding in a corner an effective role. It would also make the Overwatch Sniper more effective as Overwatch, even in PUB matches where no one is on coms. It's a nice idea, so long as it's not extended to what we had upon release of uprising, where just sight of anyone broadcasted their location to your whole team. Don't confuse the term "scout" with "recon" however. It's not necessary to show enemy positions to your team in order to scout. The term is referring to operating ahead of your main force. This can be rapid deployment/response, set up for your main force, and operation behind enemy lines, including target assassination, flanking and disruption. Relaying information can certainly be included in that, but unlike what I hear sometimes here on the forums, relaying information is not necessary for a unit to be a scout, regardless of how the role may exist in real life military. To confirm, I meant that you would have to put them in your sights to flag them for the TacNet. It is something the Sniper Community thought was in the game two years ago, but it turned out to be just a rumor (like the old rummer that sprinting increased your scan profile). You make a good point about Scouts vs Recon, but Recon is still one of the Roles that Scouts are well suited to perform. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 7	Posted - 2015.12.04 17:41:00 - [5] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Power creep is a problem, but it's too late for this cycle, we are half way through. Commandos and logis were buffed to be equal to assaults. Sentinels were nerfed, so long as careful and minor adjustments are considered we can avoid another cycle of power creep. It's too late to avoid the creep that's happened in the past. I think this is a good response to Adipem Nothi's suggestion to Nerf Assaults to counter power creep. If the other suits are relatively balanced combat wise against the Assault suit, then it makes seance to balance Sentinels against Assaults at their current level. I also think that it is better to buff Sentinels through base HP than through DPS. Higher HP Sentinels don't flip the balance against Rifle Assaults the way higher DPS Sentinels would. A higher HP Sentinel just means an Assault may need to take cover to reload, or retreat back to the next cover before finishing the Sentinel off. It would mean Assaults would need to use a bit more play skill to take down a Sentinel 1 v 1, rather than just doing a shimi while going head to head in the open. 1 v 1 fights in the open should go to the Sentinel due to Rock/Paper/Scissors balancing. My only concern would be the Alpha damage weapons used by Scouts. If it takes more than 3 shots to kill a Sentinel then Scouts become less effective against Sentinels. On the other hand, if that Officer Shotgun required 1 extra shot to take out a Sentinel, then maybe it would not be as OP anymore. So in buffing Sentinel base health it would need to be enough to make a difference vs rifles, but not too much to make Shotguns ineffective. Remember that it is supposed to be Sentinels (rock) > Assault (Scissors) > Scout (Paper) > Sentinel (Rock), so we need to make sure any Sentinel Buff does not give Sentinels the advantage over Scouts. Keeping in mind however that the Rock/Paper/Scissors balance advantages are only supposed to be slight so that they can be overcome using tactical play. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.