I agree that they are slow. I've always seen heavies in PC has a noob suit.

You skill into them if your not a versatile player or if you wanted to get into PC quicker in the start of PC. (Meta was Slayer Logi + Heavies)

Now the meta has shifted.

Tell me why I would use a heavy suit if I have over 100m+ SP?

There is no reason when player tactics will always rule if your smart.

Uplinks, Stealth, Support, Intel.

All of them a heavy can't do.

Allow Heavy's some bandwidth. 4 Perhaps?

If you already have access to it [scans] from multiple sources, clearly you don't need it built into your suit.

The only real exception to this would be the amarr scout which has a deeper potential scan, but a dinky radius. He's a problem child, but weak enough that I believe deserves the extra range.

One last point. You tell us that it isn't the Scout's job to scan as he is getting scan intel from other sources.

Then, you suggest that we should buff the AM Scout's capacity for scanning. Are these statements not in direct conflict?

Seriously, what am I missing here? Is there some mysterious logic at play here?

A valid, albeit debatable, position. What isn't debatable is that three out of four Scouts have racial bonuses to passive scans. Regardless of what we think Scouts are doing or should be doing, they are still designed to be scouting; their bonuses to passive scans have remain unchanged since HF Charlie (Aug 2014). If Scouts today are indeed still supposed to be scouting, then these racial bonuses to passive scans still make sense, though the overly weakened states of those scans very likely need work. If Scouts are in fact no longer supposed to be scouting, then we need to decide what they are supposed to be doing and adjust their outmoded racial bonuses accordingly. That makes sense, right?

The bottom line is that Scouts aren't fine.

We made it a point to fix the sub-par racial bonuses of GA and CA Assaults. Should we not do the same with sub-par (or possibly even outmoded) racial bonuses of Scouts? As for removing active scans from the game, that's not my recommendation at all. My recommendation is to balance active scans. There are lots of great ideas out there on how to go about doing this.

He is right, heavies do work in PC but they aren't mobile units. If you have a problem with using the heavy it may be because you are trying to assault in it, it is for defense (e.g not moving 30m away from a point) which is in my opinion very limiting

Also, please remember the title -- Kill interaction.

This other secondary mechanical role stuff is good to talk about, but it's not really where I'm coming from with the message I'm trying to get across about viability. I'm specifically talking about kill interaction and combat viability.

If the scans are coming from somewhere then the only question of relevance to me is whether or not the suit is capable of using that intel to kill people in a competitive environment. And currently, yes. It can. That's all it means to this particular discussion.

Came expecting trolking and rants.

Floored.

Carry on. Reading carefully. Taking notes.

Came expecting trolking and rants.

Floored.

Carry on. Reading carefully. Taking notes.

Assault suits get kills based on whether they have more player skill than their opponent. They are versatile, hit hard, and can fit proper to the situation. I have never been in a matchup in any of my assault suits and thought "Man, I just got hard countered" with the exception of scrambler rifle vs caldari assault in the last build.

Scout suits get kills primarily by taking advantage of another persons sacrifice. In other words, the scout is most lethal when somebody else is getting shot at, or has poor situational awareness. If a heavy has a number of targets on radar from a team mates active scan, you can bet his attention will be on them and not the guy coming from the other direction. Scouts kill and tank based on misdirection, not based on stats.

Heavy suits are what I refer to as, classically, the big dumb cyclops. Heavies can't see anything without help. Heavies can't move from point A to point B without help, lest they be peppered to death from 40-50 meters away with no recourse. Where the heavy does good, though, is when lesser skilled players attempt to rush him down head on. The heavy is successful when a lesser skilled opponent decides to reject the rock-paper-scissors mentality behind DPS engagements. The problem though, and this is the most damning, heavies can't survive in 1v1 engagements against skilled opponents in this same manner. The heavy can do just fine against weaker players, mind you -- in fact I would go so far to say as this has been the key balancing consideration for them. Against bad players, a heavy might as well be a hero in Dynasty Warriors sending them flying everywhere with little effort. But in a battle of hero against hero, the heavy consistently falls short and is often seen as the easiest target to kill in a competitive PC match.


So, what do I personally see from this?

Assaults need to be versatile and strong -- they do this. Constant power creep has gotten them where they need to be. Amarr suits have issues inherent with their weapon design.

Scouts need to be able to kill based on misdirection and get to places before other people -- they do this. No complaints, except for perhaps the weaker suits like amarr.

Heavies.... can't really excel at anything, except with the Forge Gun role. In my experience if you throw a logi with a rep on an armor tanked Assault, he will most likely end up mitigating more incoming damage and being able to transition better than a heavy would. Given the absurd reload time on the HMG, overheat and long seize duration, the Gal Assault likely puts more accurate damage downrange in the span of a minute as well.


These thoughts, as well as constant bitching from my own heavies about how useless they were against Bons spam, lead me to almost entirely strip the heavy from any of the PC fights I FC'd before quitting. This does not count Commandos or Forgers, of course, as they still have a lot of use in Overwatch and Bridge scenarios.


In general I like where most of the suits are, and I don't want to see the HMG buffed to absurd levels. It could use a balance pass on the heat mechanics but I would leave the damage alone. Rather I think the opposite approach could be taken with the heavy and make it more defensive than offensive. As it stands currently, smaller hitbox combined with movespeed and strafe makes a player more survivable than what is quickly becoming a modest addition of HP on the heavy. At this time I would say it is appropriate for the heavy to get more HP, and it is important that it actually be HP and not resistance as too much resistance actually buffs the support reps they get from Logis making it a potentially OP combination.


Just the two cents of a guy who has been FC'ing for FA for the last year. These opinions come purely from the standpoint of what I would currently field in a competitive match when given a choice between a larger pool of players, assuming the map is not extremely situational.

Apparently u haven't seen me heavy

That's fair, Himiko. My concern is that someone might surmise from the OP that all is good and well with Scouts at the competitive level. That isn't at all the case. Sure, GalScouts with Shotguns might be getting the job done, but what of everything else, from EWAR interplay to Knives to the other 3 Scouts sitting on the sidelines (and why)? "No complaints here ... except maybe that AM Scout" is a dangerous oversimplification of the state of scout play, competitive or otherwise.

PS: Wildly unpopular, no doubt, but it could just as readily be argued that Assault nerfs would make for better balanced "kill interaction" than Sentinel buffs. Assaults have lots of room to come down before any other unit could rival their competitive capacity for killing. These units could still be the very best at frontline slaying without standing head-and-shoulders above everything else, or for that matter, toe-to-toe with HMG Heavies.

I mean, if you want your fill.

CPM2 recognizes that some of you Scouts might be upset by the recent news that the recon and counter-recon functions you were waiting to be improved upon for the past year have instead been stripped away from Scouts and gifted to Logis. And then improved upon. We understand how some of you might find this disappointing. Maybe even shocking. We would've told you a long time ago that this is what CPM planned to do, but NDA. Believe it or not, we've actually been looking out for Scouts this whole time, which is why we planned in advance a very clever way to counteract any potential bad feelings you guys might experience while we take away one of the few things your class has left to work with. Some time back, we asked ourselves what might get you guys super excited but still keep Scouts "balanced" (:: chuckle ::). We're pleased to announce that we figured it out pretty much on our own, and then we put those Devs to work on something huge, just for you! We know you're going to be excited ...

Behold! An ever-so-slightly less crappy cloak.

It's true! Exactly what you guys wanted, right!? We think this will come in super handy when you Scouts are out doing your Scout jobs. We're not exactly sure what those jobs are or what they're supposed to be. Obviously, not combat. Or recon. You know, Scout stuff. Anywho, have fun guys! But not too much fun!

-CPM2

PS: You're welcome!

The Shottini sends his regards.

Shotty-go-bang can get off his ass and address me himself. I'm not in the market for misquoting rants through intermediaries.

Not everything in this thread is going on my list of good ideas, but the presentation definitely inclines me to skip your posts in the future. If that's what you want, please continue.

I will cheerily tell anyone who tries to browbeat or put me in the place they want me to be where they can merrily shove their opinions.

Because I'm totally the nice guy who actually takes everyone's opinion into account, no matter how insulting or satirical, amirite?

I like you better when you're like this; when you're constructive.

The speed of Heavies is their disadvantage so it should stay as is. BUT, Overheat needs to c hange since it makes it just a big target easy to kill. Resistances are also a good point.

Scouts should not get more e-war capabilities, since they need a disadvantage, especcially when cloaked.
Running a SCOUT in the middle of heavy warfare in a city should be suicidal, and that's exactly what it is right now. The Assault should be the better suit for this scenario. Do not nerf active scanners whatsoever, or the scout will be reign supreme in city sockets again.

I think (as a non assault player) that the assaults are where they belong. Everybody and his mom complained how crap they where, so right now they are the most used suits and that is how it should be.

Logis right now are allrightish, and commandos aswell (though I miss my min bonus for swarms).
BTW, give min Commandos an AV weapon... (Breach MD needs either the firerate of the standard or more direct damage!!!)

Shotty-go-bang can get off his ass and address me himself.

Shotty-go-bang can get off his ass and address me himself.