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How should CCP handle cloaking?

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Van Rydell 2	Posted - 2012.07.10 09:23:00 - [181] - Quote Now i'm not really an expert on EVE or the cloaking in EVE for that matter. But i'd like to through my two cents out there. From what i gather in EVE your cloak dispells when you get to close to something. Points have been made about contact with the ground but that gave me an idea. What if we imagined cloaks as a bubble? or Shell maybe. As if Cloaks made an area of affect around the player. Naturally this would only affect the player that is utilizing the cloak. Instead of seeing a blurry outline of a "Figure" ,like in the Mass Effect games and the like, we saw an area of space that had some animation that made it unordinary, such as a spark every couple of seconds to add to the fact that the shield suffers a distortion when in contact with an object. Now i don't beleive contact with the ground should be an issue in DUST. But i do beleive proximity to objects (such as bunkers, suplly depots, cap-points, or cover) which would make the bubble more unstable and cause it to be more easily seen, making it so players had to be very aware of their surroundings while cloaked. The Energy emitted from firing a weapon should distablize the Shield immeadiatly as should coming into contact with the above examples of terrain. HOWEVER i do think that cloaked Knifing should be implemented. Due to the bubbles range swinging or stabbing with a knife shouldn't affect the cloak all that much. But since knifing someone requires a close quarters proximity the shield would distabilize completely upon a successful knifing atempt. I beleive this would add some self defense to the Cloaking Scouts while limiting them at the same time since they have to be careful not to touch an outside source while following a target since in this example a complete distablizing of the cloak would cause you to be detected on enemy radars. I do not think cloakers should be "unable" to fire while cloaked. they should at the very least have the option. just make it unpractical. My initial thought was to remove the aiming retical completely while cloacked but that would make it hard to just tell where exactly your looking at. now i'm thinking give cloakers something like the retical that HMG and Shotgun users get with no ability to scope so that they have to get VERY close (but not extremely close as is with knifing) to a target in order to ensure a successful kill. Anyway these are my thoughts. sorry for the long post.
carl von oppenheimer Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 158	Posted - 2012.07.10 11:13:00 - [182] - Quote Well it could be similar to what they had in predator which is ripples and stuff or just simply that you will not be visible on enemy radar as long as you have the cloak, that alone would make you pretty much invisible most of the time.
Riggs Tank Bragian Order Amarr Empire 25	Posted - 2012.07.10 15:56:00 - [183] - Quote cloaking tech must have some sort of power needed to inable the cloak... maybe cloaking suit should be a whole seperate dropsuit type. very low armor/shield and slow movement.
Azura dark 31	Posted - 2012.07.10 16:03:00 - [184] - Quote covert dropsuit, with built in capacitor , each improved tier of dropsuit, standard,advanced ,prototype has a bigger capacitor. the bigger the capacitor obviously the longer you could stay cloaked for. could be its own class . movement speed between that of the scout and assault , has 1 equipment slot and only has a sidearm slot , just an idea
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2012.07.10 16:15:00 - [185] - Quote Forums Veteran wrote: What needs solidified is narrowly defining what role cloaking has on the battlefield. - Ambush: those with stealth should be the masters of employing ambush strategies - Infiltration: sneaking through the lines undetected is a hallmark of good stealth - Recon: the best eyes are the ones the enemy doesn't know are watching For comparison, here are some roles sometimes assigned to stealth units that I believe should belong to a different support tree - EW: Eve gets this right by having the strongest EW platforms be non-stealthy (even if they require the same skills ) - Deception: False intel should be a different tactic than suppressing intel - Interdiction: A fancy word for flanking, but attacking the rear belongs chiefly to the nimble, let scouts be the best at this - Traps: While watching the victim is sadistically appealing, this more properly belongs to the combat engineer I believe this necessitates certain design principles in balancing the cloak The cloak should last indefinitely on demand The cloak should be foolproof at range and reliable at close proximity The cloak should require significant fitting resources The cloak should reduce mobility but not cripple it The cloak should not allow escape from combat Bringing this back to the discussion since people think timers would bring balance. No, that would just encourage the gameplay that you are trying to nerf with a timer. Same thing for movement penalties (as in moving makes it weaker, distinct from move speed penalties). Furthermore reminding people that this is not going to be scout exclusive. In fact, the best platform would likely be an assault package. We are getting cloaks all the way up to tanks, so balance should not revolve around making fast faster (scout suits with a timed cloak is just a mobility buff).
Ten-Sidhe Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 414	Posted - 2012.07.10 20:25:00 - [186] - Quote The scout suit refers to active camo in the description. So, the EvE universe has cloaking and active camo. Perhaps there could be two module types to pick from. just listing EvE cloak penalties for reference lv1: movement -90%, 30sec to fire, -50%scan resolution lv2: movement -75%, 20sec to fire, -40%scan resolution covert ops: movement -0%, 10sec to fire, -0%scan resolution Decloak if in 2km of object, can't warp, fire, reload weapons, use modules, interact with anything The cloaking skill is 6x skill that lowers targeting delay 10%, covert ops skill has huge cpu, ships ment to use it reduce its cpu by 96-100%. some of the weaker, for size, ships remove the targeting delay. So, to translate this to Dust, lv1: movement -90%, -40% accuracy, -50%scan resolution, weapon must be reloaded after decloaking* lv2: movement -75%, -25% accuracy, -40%scan resolution, weapon must be reloaded after decloaking covert ops: movement -0%, -10% accuracy, -0%scan resolution, weapon must be reloaded after decloaking *The scan resolution affects target lock time in eve and and would add to time delay before firing. decloak if in X metres of dropsuite(even friendly), hackable object, vehicle, or nanohive/droplink. Cloaking allows running, but drains shield and stamina. The run speed is greatly reduced by the active cloak, and doesn't drain while stationary. So, the the lighter suits with faster speed and faster shield recharge would cover more ground. A shield tank would allow faster movement while cloaked, but need to stop to recharge shield before decloaking. Can only activate cloak with full shields, and out of vision of all non-cloaked enemies. The lv 1 and 2 cloaks would take a light weapon slot, and the covert ops would take equipment slots. So, the cloak would be a utility item that hurts combat ability greatly, unless on expensive specialist suits. still useful for scouting, sneaking behind enemy for hacking, limited ambush/camping due to penalties, or logistics hiding from enemy. Most campers would not use it, but some would. main camping/ ambush would probably involve placing remote explosives and cloaking nearby till someone gets in range. Covert ops capable suits could still fight, but have less tank then similar non-stealth suits. Have optical camo be another module/skill for scouts and covert ops capable suits. The blur/transparency should reduce with both speed and distance. Take up a light weapon slot, since it could be used in combat and would allow option to specialist fit of having cloak and optical camo(at high opportunity cost to potential tank/gank). maybe have a equipment slot version available at lv4. One of the dropships is meant to be anti-stealth, active scanners listed in market will probably counter stealth, scouts could have as standard short range decloak(maybe cloaks only work like optical camo when seen by scout?), and anti stealth modules/equipment could be added. for skills I say, electronics lv5 and dropsuit operation lv5 needed for cloaking and optical camo skills, covert needs level 4 or 5 cloaking to use. A skill that reduces detection by sensors requiring dropsuit and electronics lv5 would also be nice(sensor evasion skill?). Another module option for stealth types would be an iff jammer(requiring sensor evasion skill), in the middle of a group of enemies taking away the iff could make enemies shoot each other or be very hesitant to fire. should probably be light weapon slot, to prevent combining with stealth to easily and make it require trading some firepower gaining extra protection.
Archangel Exodus 8	Posted - 2012.07.11 07:19:00 - [187] - Quote Guys they are gonna make countermeasures for the cloak modules so I doubt it will be a big advantage, my only guess at it is only if you don't spot them before they cloak, and don't pay attention to your countermeasures when then your SOTL.
Specter Dog Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 2	Posted - 2012.07.15 03:13:00 - [188] - Quote the cloak should be part of the scout suit. the cloak should make you completely invisible while standing still. slightly less when crouch walking and off during normal movement, sprinting and shooting. it should not reduce movement speed or accuracy. the cloak should run off a power source like stamina or shields. it would also be good if knifing got a damage boost
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3064	Posted - 2012.07.25 21:46:00 - [189] - Quote I don't understand why people favor a cloak that only works while standing still. This will lead to overpowered campers and snipers. It would be much more useful the other way around: it should ONLY WORK WHILE MOVING, and you should become more visible when you slow down, and get fully visible when you stop moving. Why? Because someone sneaking past enemies and getting to objectives and setting down drop uplinks is FAR more useful than an invisible camper or a sniper. To balance it, you should not be able to hold a gun while cloaked, and any melee should disable the cloaking until a cooldown time has passed. Invisible snipers and campers is NOT the way to go.
Lord Sedto Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 25	Posted - 2012.07.25 22:17:00 - [190] - Quote I see the advantage and disadvantage for cloaking, say a sniper finds a good spot and cloaks. While in cloak he is undetectable and can take there time targeting and getting ready for that perfect shot, however once they open fire they loose the cloak for x amount of time and only the timer would countdown once they stop shooting. If your sniping then you normally would get in a spot and wait kinda boring but serves a purpose. having limited space for example a cloak might hamper you to only having one weapon slot only, and cpu and processor usage would be incredibly high so you wouldn't be able to equip a lot of stuff.

Xocoyol Zaraoul Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 259	Posted - 2012.07.25 22:41:00 - [191] - Quote I have a feeling that cloaks will be celebrated (if implemented) simply because it will allow people to escape being redlined so easily. If it can indeed be put on anything, a Logi suit carrying nothing but Droplinks and a cloak would be bliss.
XBARTX99 WarRavens 11	Posted - 2012.07.26 02:31:00 - [192] - Quote i personal think a mostly adaptive camouflage suit would be much preferable to have any cloak ability for infantry over 80% of suit would match ground and build textures around it (this was int in metal gear solid 4)
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3064	Posted - 2012.07.28 21:16:00 - [193] - Quote Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote: I have a feeling that cloaks will be celebrated (if implemented) simply because it will allow people to escape being redlined so easily. If it can indeed be put on anything, a Logi suit carrying nothing but Droplinks and a cloak would be bliss. Hopefully the cloak will allow for running instead of those "you are visible if you move" kind of cloaks, otherwise it will be kind of useless in those situations.
DrunkMonk 1 Walmart Brand Mercenaries 26	Posted - 2012.07.28 22:54:00 - [194] - Quote Forums Veteran wrote: As most of you may know, CCP appear to have been mulling over how to implement Cloaking into DUST. The technology exists in EVE, and almost any ship can fit the most basic cloaking device, but in the case of non-cloaky ships, you have to sacrifice quite a lot in order to fit it, including time to acquire a target, overall speed, and the inability to warp... However, if you are flying a covert-ops ship, you are able to not only warp while cloaked, but you don't take the hit to targeting speed etc. So my suggestion? Make it so only a special type of "covert ops" Dropsuit has a cloaking device, and just build it into the suit---[edit] Disregard the underlined statement---. The problem with this suit would be, even at the prototype level, with all the support skills, you'd still only be able to fit a sidearm-class weapon, and very little tank, but they would have a larger-than-average stamina bar. You'd basically be strictly for running behind enemy lines, and either capturing objectives, or feeding intel on enemy positions. If they allow any suit to cloak, they better make it so they can't load out with any weapons or something, lol, because if not, prepare for surprise sodomy by swarm launchers, forge guns, etc. In fact, I would be fine if they didn't even include cloaking all together, with the excuse that it works for ships, but the limited space in drop suits makes it infeasible. My suggestion: dont put cloaking in the game
Mobius Kaethis Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 306	Posted - 2012.07.29 06:00:00 - [195] - Quote I'm thinking that cloaks would be something that would be extremely useful for command suit users. So you'd be unable to attack. No problem. You can still call in installations can direct other players without worrying about being shot while you're in map view doing something fiddly. To the Devs I say: Make invisibility a module, but make it take so much power you can't fit any weapons (or only a scrambler pistol). Make it so we can't attack while cloaked. These are all good ideas but also allow us to have full use of our radar and other command/recon abilities.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3064	Posted - 2012.08.07 12:09:00 - [196] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: I don't understand why people favor a cloak that only works while standing still. This will lead to overpowered campers and snipers. It would be much more useful the other way around: it should ONLY WORK WHILE MOVING, and you should become more visible when you slow down, and get fully visible when you stop moving. Why? Because someone sneaking past enemies and getting to objectives and setting down drop uplinks is FAR more useful than an invisible camper or a sniper. To balance it, you should not be able to hold a gun while cloaked, and any melee should disable the cloaking until a cooldown time has passed. Invisible snipers and campers is NOT the way to go. I would like to add: Cloaking should be an equipment module requiring a moderate amount of skills to use, and different grades of the cloak module (standard, advanced, and prototype) should have progressively better cloak duration, and levels of invisibility; for example standard cloak modules should only have 10 seconds of cloaking before the cool down, have a strong refraction effect that gives them away to those who pay attention, but the refraction effect should be much less in higher grade cloak modules, and prototype cloak modules would be able to be invisible for 20 seconds before having to cool down. There should also be different variants each with varying strong points and weaknesses. Chevrons (the symbol over a player's head) should not appear on a cloaked player, even if his cloak is unconvincing visually. Weapons (even knife) should not be usable at all until cloak is disabled. I don't mean once you fire or knife that the cloak turns off, I mean you can't fire or knife at all until you turn off the cloak, or until it has to cool down. Cloak disabling should make a electrical discharge sound. This would give observant players a chance of spotting a newly de-cloaked enemy who is about to knife them in the back. Cloaking should be meant for avoiding combat, not getting stealth kills. There should be deployable equipment designed to locate enemies, and higher levels of this equipment should spot cloaked players at a certain proximity. I think there is an equipment listed in the store (though not currently in the game) that might fit this. Cloak should be more easily fitted in a logistics dropsuit compared to other slot; they have lots of PG/CPU, and cloaking would be great for avoiding combat for the sake of supporting others (like sneaking past enemies to place a drop uplink). Can't really think of more right now.
Oswald Banecroft II Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 10	Posted - 2012.08.07 12:31:00 - [197] - Quote Did not read the whole thread so if I say something that has already been addressed or suggested I apologize in advance. Cloaking... I think only vehicles should be able to truly cloak, it should be a module they have to activate, and they should be unable to attack while cloaked. To attack they need to deactivate the module, or (instead), if you are the driver of a vehicle that can attack doing so will uncloak you, and also reduce your speed for X amount of time because you did not deactivate the module first. If the driver leaves the vehicle it should decloak, if it receives enough damage while cloaked it should decloak, and if it is a dropship and gets to close to the ground it should decloak as well. While cloaked the vehicle should be unable to repair itself and people should be unable to spawn on it should it be equipped with the proper module to allow them to spawn on it in the first place, of course. Turret gunners would have to wait to fire until the driver does something to decloak the vehicle. For infantry I think it should be more like camouflage, like the Predator. If standing still they are virtually invisible, but start moving and there is a distinct blur. If they open fire the cloak should drop for X amount of time. Yes, it should also be a module that requires activation and should also reduce movement speed while it is active. Deactivating the cloak/firing to drop cloak, should show up on the minimap as a flashy blip as well. A duration could be added, but there isn't one in EVE... So... shrugs Those are my thoughts on the matter, my two-shiny cents.
The Robot Devil 45	Posted - 2012.08.07 13:09:00 - [198] - Quote CCP has it correct in EVE and it should carry over into DUST the same way. The same kind of skill sets and penalties, I love my cloak on my ship but it is useless unless you plan for it.
RolyatDerTeufel D3ath D3alers RISE of LEGION 1648	Posted - 2012.09.05 01:26:00 - [199] - Quote Posting to help develop the cloaking ideas
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. 1216	Posted - 2012.09.05 01:29:00 - [200] - Quote I like the idea of an unlimited cloak such as in EVE, but also with the caveats of say, being unable to sprint and requiring that you switch away from your weapons such that there is a delay after de-cloaking before he can re-engage.

crazy space ZionTCD Legacy Rising 879	Posted - 2012.09.05 01:35:00 - [201] - Quote Forums Veteran wrote: Just a quick thought but what if using a cloak dropped your shield to 0 and had a steady stamina drain to limit cloaked time? Once the cloak is dropped your shields begin to regenerate. Any actions would cause the cloak to drop like firing a weapon for example. Any direct or splash damage would also cause the shield to drop. This would cause any cloaked player to think twice before trying to sneak up and attack because once you fire that first shot you're position is known and you're not very well protected. to add to this While moving add an effect to make it possible to see, SC2 pulls this off well. you can see cloaks but it's easy to miss if your not good at the game yet. Making detection skill based in someway. oh but right to add directly to your idea, only special dropsuits should get to fire while in cloak. What I mean is, in eve if your not CovertOps, you need to drop cloak and wait like 3-4 seconds before you can fire. I think if dust had a 2 second delay, combines with suits without said delay it would work well. Also instead of dropping shields to zero, how about instead your shields are turned off, untill 2 seconds after you come out of cloak. Then it pops right back to full. But the shields are down, so you can killed easily if someone sees your shimmer.
Billi Gene Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 130	Posted - 2012.09.05 04:47:00 - [202] - Quote cloaking Equipment: 30PG 65CPU -20% movement cloak device must be held and "fired" once to activate, changing to a weapon cancels the cloak field. Cloaking field takes 15 seconds to recycle before it can be re-applied after cancelation. cloaked mercs will be unable to see enemy player chevrons or enemy installation markers around them, unless that enemy was spotted by another player or friendly installation. the cloaking field does not extend around the feet of the cloaked merc, as contact with anything breaks the field. The faster the cloaked merc travels the higher this uncloaked portion will ride. A sprinting merc in a cloak field will have his feet up to just under his knees visible. A stationary Merc will be nigh invisible, with just the barest distortion visible where his feet rest on the ground. //just an idea. .. -it should be that PG /CPU cost limits weapon/module choice -movement is taxed, and that spotting a cloaked suit should not but impossible, but rather improbable. -contact breaking the field maintains EVE physics, the fact that sprint is allowed is not unusual...cloaked ships in EVE travel the vacuum at speeds greater then achievable planet side, a planets atmosphere might mess with the field a bit, but mercs don't travel in multiples of 1000km/h. -the cloaking field will not mess with communications but will mess with targeting systems, hence the ability to see other peoples spotted targets but not to be able to spot your own (chevrons). Perhaps proto stealth suits might not have this and other disadvantages, but should still have some limitations of weapon vs mods load out. -these limitations would make it so any suit other then the equipment slot-less heavies could feasibly have stealth variants, but that Logi suits would suffer the least being as they have multiple equipment slots, and higher PG/CPU then other suit types. 0.02isk
madd mudd 41	Posted - 2012.09.05 05:35:00 - [203] - Quote What about an equipment item that deploys a cloak wall that is interrupted and then destroyed via damage. One wouldn't be able to shoot right through it from either side.
The Robot Devil 45	Posted - 2012.09.05 10:13:00 - [204] - Quote Forums Veteran wrote: i'd like to see scouts and logistics able to use cloak myself. atm scouts don't seem to have to much going for them ( i mean we all hate bunny hopping, but is that really something to build a suit around?) and logis are the one thing you'd wanna hide, right? cloaking isn't just for infiltrating, it could be a defensive tool. but i do see an issue with how to balance it... i almost feel like... if you made the cloak a "weapon" that took up a light weapon slot, that might do it? a cloaked logi would be weaponless. a cloaked scout, assault, or heavy would be restricted to sidearm only. you could even make it so that the cloak only functions while the weapon is drawn to mitigate combat abuse, OR make it so it only functions while the trigger is being held, using up "ammo" in the form of a charge. a larger suit would need more effort on the part of the module to stay cloaked, so a heavy might get a few seconds out of what could keep a scout cloaked for much longer. you definitely do need some way to BALANCE it amongst the different suits, but i dunno if you need to completely restrict it to one suit type. Cloaks take up a high power slot (a weapon slot) in EVE. I like my cloak on EVE but I only use it when exploring so I don't get blown up as fast.
Kai Onslot II Eightfold Arrow Shadow Naval Alliance 6	Posted - 2012.09.05 14:11:00 - [205] - Quote Forums Veteran wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=115498#post115498 Nova Knife wrote: In my opinion, Killzone 3 had the best use of cloaking technology in any shooter. It wasn't so much a cloak, as it was incredibly good camoflage. You were not totally invisible, just very easy to miss by someone quickly looking around. This is what the infantry and ground vehicles could get, even if dropships get actual cloaks. The more quickly the move, the less effective the cloak becomes, and moving at full speed the cloak becomes so distorted that you actually stand out more than you would if you were uncamoflaged. I think as far as infantry are concerned, I do not think they should be able to turn completely invisible, ever. Like said in an above post, it simply promotes camping and hiding, like a prone mechanic and are quite frankly boring and ruin shooting games. They should not go so far as to be unable to move with the cloak active, perhaps moving crouched makes it a bit less effective but I am of the mind you should always be able to at least see some measure of visual distortion even if the cloak is operating at full effect. I agree there should be a timer, maybe 30-60s with better modules and/or skills to increase that or decrease the visual anomaly slightly when moving. As far as the force recon dropships go, I would be in favor of a full blown cloak so long as the cloak completely disabled the turrets, had a timer of a minute or two before it ran out, and disabled upon any collision with any surface. Might I add something to the idea of cloak for the drop suits. I have seen in many of the MMO and FPS that I have run and beta tested. That the Idea of camo was put on your sniping class only. and that once they move it is gone and only offered in the Prone to kneeling position. That would be an idea for you to run with "if" you wanted to incorporate camp into dust. one idea I had for it as well : like in eve with our training for I.E. certian weapons. you tend to lose power and cpu usage. What about adding this to the set up with snipers. I there are some book that yes drop it but. what about adding a few books in for the camo that would drop it even more. Just a thought .
pew pew youredead What The French 98	Posted - 2012.09.05 17:03:00 - [206] - Quote The Robot Devil wrote: Cloaks take up a high power slot (a weapon slot) in EVE. I like my cloak on EVE but I only use it when exploring so I don't get blown up as fast. NO high power slot does not equate a weapon slot. you have turrets and launcher slots and they are both high slots but every high slot is not a weapon slot, check out how many high slot a stealth bomber has and how many launcher hardpoints. 5 highs, 3 launcher hardpoints. 1 High for cloak, another for bomb launcher and the rest is siege launchers.... so for the love of god, don't request a weapon limitation factor for the cloak...... in EVE the Stealth bomber is a frigate (the smallest ship class) and it has weapons designed to be on Battleships (the biggest sub-capital vessel class) but i has no tank at all. sneeze on it and it dies
Corban Lahnder ZionTCD Legacy Rising 158	Posted - 2012.09.05 17:30:00 - [207] - Quote The only way a non passive cloak could work would have it consume an equipment slot. I do think you should be able to switch to another weapon. However any sort of damage or bumping into players or vehicles, or fall damage, or use of one of your own weapons or equipment deactivate the field. If only for a short time.
ThreeXB ZionTCD Legacy Rising 7	Posted - 2012.09.05 17:34:00 - [208] - Quote Forums Veteran wrote: TEXKO wrote: Snipers should only have cloaking. anybody can use a sniper rifle scout dropsuits in description talks about ability to cloak
Kai Onslot II Eightfold Arrow Shadow Naval Alliance 6	Posted - 2012.09.05 20:04:00 - [209] - Quote You see there is one thing that it should have is this. do not allow every class to use it make a Specific training listing for it that has to be in a set. Kinda like the Black ops Vehicles you have to have a set training to get it. So if we put on a specific patteren for the training I.E. Sniper only and black ops only
Bootbaghandle Algintal Core Gallente Federation 6	Posted - 2012.09.06 03:01:00 - [210] - Quote I've said this in the past and I'll say this again: cloaking anything in this game will just lead to a surge of people who will only use cloaking devices. It just has bad idea written all over it and will in the end just lead to people abusing the sh!t out of it. Go ahead and say what you want to defend it, but what I've said will eventually come to pass if they allow cloaking in the game...



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