DUST Search - How should CCP handle cloaking?

Nova Knife wrote:

In my opinion, Killzone 3 had the best use of cloaking technology in any shooter. It wasn't so much a cloak, as it was incredibly good camoflage. You were not totally invisible, just very easy to miss by someone quickly looking around. This is what the infantry and ground vehicles could get, even if dropships get actual cloaks. The more quickly the move, the less effective the cloak becomes, and moving at full speed the cloak becomes so distorted that you actually stand out more than you would if you were uncamoflaged.

I think as far as infantry are concerned, I do not think they should be able to turn completely invisible, ever. Like said in an above post, it simply promotes camping and hiding, like a prone mechanic and are quite frankly boring and ruin shooting games. They should not go so far as to be unable to move with the cloak active, perhaps moving crouched makes it a bit less effective but I am of the mind you should always be able to at least see some measure of visual distortion even if the cloak is operating at full effect. I agree there should be a timer, maybe 30-60s with better modules and/or skills to increase that or decrease the visual anomaly slightly when moving.

As far as the force recon dropships go, I would be in favor of a full blown cloak so long as the cloak completely disabled the turrets, had a timer of a minute or two before it ran out, and disabled upon any collision with any surface.

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[Veteran_Orin Fenris] 0	Posted - 2012.06.12 09:01:00 - [1] - Quote As most of you may know, CCP appear to have been mulling over how to implement Cloaking into DUST. The technology exists in EVE, and almost any ship can fit the most basic cloaking device, but in the case of non-cloaky ships, you have to sacrifice quite a lot in order to fit it, including time to acquire a target, overall speed, and the inability to warp... However, if you are flying a covert-ops ship, you are able to not only warp while cloaked, but you don't take the hit to targeting speed etc. So my suggestion? Make it so only a special type of "covert ops" Dropsuit has a cloaking device, and just build it into the suit---[edit] Disregard the underlined statement---. The problem with this suit would be, even at the prototype level, with all the support skills, you'd still only be able to fit a sidearm-class weapon, and very little tank, but they would have a larger-than-average stamina bar. You'd basically be strictly for running behind enemy lines, and either capturing objectives, or feeding intel on enemy positions. If they allow any suit to cloak, they better make it so they can't load out with any weapons or something, lol, because if not, prepare for surprise sodomy by swarm launchers, forge guns, etc. In fact, I would be fine if they didn't even include cloaking all together, with the excuse that it works for ships, but the limited space in drop suits makes it infeasible.
[Veteran_Baal Roo] 0	Posted - 2012.06.12 09:08:00 - [2] - Quote seems to me they could simply make the cloaking units very resource intensive, thus making it difficult to pair them with very much other gear, but still allowing players the freedom to choose what they want to sacrifice for the cloaking.
[Veteran_SILENTSAM 69] 0	Posted - 2012.06.12 09:19:00 - [3] - Quote I would think it would en an equipment item first of all. This is a valuable slot in your fitting. I could see it having similar rules to a cloak in EVE. Getting close to anyone would uncloak you. Firing your gun would uncloak you. Interacting with anything would uncloak you. I could see it being tied to some skill that let you use different degrees of the equipment. Maybe it would have a severe movement penalty with the standard and very little to none with the prototype. Maybe even different side grades with different penalty options.
[Veteran_Orin Fenris] 0	Posted - 2012.06.12 09:22:00 - [4] - Quote I was also thinking maybe make it so if you don't have a covert-ops suit, you can't sprint while cloaked either. Also, to simulate the scan resolution (targeting speed) penalty from EVE, maybe make it so non-cloaky suits also can't use their weapons for x seconds after coming out of cloak due to stabilization issues causing the weapons to "jam" temporarily or something. And maybe even take a similar hit to reload speed as a "constant" effect of having a cloaking device on a non-cloaky suit. So basically, unless you're running in a covert-ops suit, you might as well not even bother using a cloaking device, unless you just want a cheap cloaky suit to go scouting in or something :P
[Veteran_Nova Knife] 0	Posted - 2012.06.12 09:22:00 - [5] - Quote https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=115498#post115498 Nova Knife wrote: In my opinion, Killzone 3 had the best use of cloaking technology in any shooter. It wasn't so much a cloak, as it was incredibly good camoflage. You were not totally invisible, just very easy to miss by someone quickly looking around. This is what the infantry and ground vehicles could get, even if dropships get actual cloaks. The more quickly the move, the less effective the cloak becomes, and moving at full speed the cloak becomes so distorted that you actually stand out more than you would if you were uncamoflaged. I think as far as infantry are concerned, I do not think they should be able to turn completely invisible, ever. Like said in an above post, it simply promotes camping and hiding, like a prone mechanic and are quite frankly boring and ruin shooting games. They should not go so far as to be unable to move with the cloak active, perhaps moving crouched makes it a bit less effective but I am of the mind you should always be able to at least see some measure of visual distortion even if the cloak is operating at full effect. I agree there should be a timer, maybe 30-60s with better modules and/or skills to increase that or decrease the visual anomaly slightly when moving. As far as the force recon dropships go, I would be in favor of a full blown cloak so long as the cloak completely disabled the turrets, had a timer of a minute or two before it ran out, and disabled upon any collision with any surface.
[Veteran_GenocidalWaffles] 0	Posted - 2012.06.12 09:26:00 - [6] - Quote Having something similar to the active camo in Halo Reach would suffice: shooting and moving quickly distorts the cloak while scans and sensors go bonkers for everyone around you (including yourself)
[Veteran_Orin Fenris] 0	Posted - 2012.06.12 09:31:00 - [7] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=115498#post115498 Nova Knife wrote: In my opinion, etc. Well, that is Killzone 3. This is the EVE universe, where cloaking creates a field around you, making you literally invisible to any and all. and if someone or something (bullets, grenades, explosions.. any non-static item) disrupts that field, it nullifies the cloaking. Also, due to actual devices passive effects, in non-covert ops ships it slows down the ship, and slows the ships tracking speed. Also, in KZ2/3, only snipers can cloak, meaning your options are very limited. in DUST, if they do it right, any suit type can potentially utilize a cloaking device, meaning if they don't do it right, we could have forge guns and swarm launchers cloaked and ready to one-shot you. Thus why I suggest the x seconds of inability to fire when you drop cloak (unless in a covert-ops suit) This would help to disallow the surprise one-shot deaths, as in order to pull it off, you'd have to be visible for at least a few seconds, giving someone some time to react. Also, for OBVIOUS reasons, you should only be able to cloak when you are not on any enemies radar (unspotted). as in EVE, you can not cloak if you are engaged in combat.. but since combat is everywhere in DUST, we shouldn't be able to cloak unless already unseen. this would prevent "Cloaky escapes" most of the time.
[Veteran_Nova Knife] 0	Posted - 2012.06.12 09:45:00 - [8] - Quote As an eve player, I'm familiar with the cloaking. It would also be nearly impossible to balance cloaking for infantry, LAV's, and HAV's (Black Ops HAVs and Force Recon Dropships are on the way. Are you excited?) if they kept true to the style of cloaking eve ships currently have. It would work possibly for the Dropships, but if they even tried to make this happen for anything else, it would leave nothing but a sour taste in the mouths of many. Infantry cloaking is awesome. I'm not going to lie and say I know everything about the lore behind eve cloaks, but cloaks in eve require a distance from any object because it destablizes the cloak or some such. Hitting the ground and walking/running along uneven terrain seems like it would mess with that. Lore aside, like I said it would be very difficult to balance someone being completely undetectable, even if they could not kill you while in that state. Camoflage is the best way in my mind to handle 'cloaks' for infantry and ground vehicles. They are still detectable, just very easy to miss. I'm not saying only snipers should be able to cloak, I am merely saying that killzone had one of the most balanced, interesting, and fun implementations of cloaking, and that I would much rather see something like that than people roaming around the map being completely undetectable.
[Veteran_Orin Fenris] 0	Posted - 2012.06.12 09:54:00 - [9] - Quote well, I wouldn't mind them being completely undetectable if it also meant they were mostly harmless whilst uncloaked. that way, it would pave the way for excellent drop-link placement, great intel on troop movements ("there is no one at x CRU etc.") and allow players to sneak around and "ninja" objectives, while at the same time, being all in all mostly useless in an actual firefight. I'm sure people would try cloaking and max knife suits, but even then, they'd have to actively decloak before they could attack, and incur the attack penalty for knifing as well. It could work. but it would have to be in the same spirit as cloaking in EVE. which as you know is mostly harmless, just really annoying, except for bombers, who are dangerous, but still not very useful in an all-out fight due to collateral damage and extreme squishyness. :P So i imagine it would be similar in DUSt. Cloakys would be annoying, but if you mange to actually run near one, they are revealed and unless they have super-jukes or get some backup, they are dead to rights.
[Veteran_Dargondarkfire darkfire] 0	Posted - 2012.06.12 10:05:00 - [10] - Quote well from what i remember any cloaked ship other then a covert ops decloaked when within anything, asteroids, stations, jumpgates. a covert opt ship could get in extremely close. i know some corps used them as a jump point to jump right down into a opposing force's fleet. but if they bumped there ship into someone if was good bye cloak. you realise they couldn't implement it like this in a drop suit right? your feet are touching the ground thus you have contact and your cloak would instantly be broken.

[Veteran_Degren Cthulhu] 0	Posted - 2012.06.12 13:49:00 - [11] - Quote the problem with cloaks that have some sort of effect to them when you are moving or standing stil are crap, in eve the cloak works so wether infantry or just vehicles get them the eve way is a good way
[Veteran_TEXKO] 0	Posted - 2012.06.12 14:05:00 - [12] - Quote Snipers should only have cloaking.
[Veteran_Degren Cthulhu] 0	Posted - 2012.06.12 14:12:00 - [13] - Quote TEXKO wrote: Snipers should only have cloaking. anybody can use a sniper rifle
[Veteran_Nos Grey] 0	Posted - 2012.06.12 14:38:00 - [14] - Quote Just a quick thought but what if using a cloak dropped your shield to 0 and had a steady stamina drain to limit cloaked time? Once the cloak is dropped your shields begin to regenerate. Any actions would cause the cloak to drop like firing a weapon for example. Any direct or splash damage would also cause the shield to drop. This would cause any cloaked player to think twice before trying to sneak up and attack because once you fire that first shot you're position is known and you're not very well protected.
[Veteran_Templar Two] 0	Posted - 2012.06.12 15:25:00 - [15] - Quote What Nos Grey suggests is one way to do it but to balance such a dramtic disadvantage (no shields) cloak should, IMO, last indefinitely much like in Killzone or until you shoot, get hit, or deactivate it. Adding a stamina penalty/consumption when using cloak is really too much IMO. My idea is that cloaking should consume energy and we should be able to use it for 10 seconds max. Also I propose cloak to consume shields depending on the usage: use the cloak for 5 seconds and it consumes 50% of shields. This way it's balanced: the advantage of cloaking is that you are invisible, the disadvantage is that you are far more vulnerable while using it and the more you use it the weaker you get. Shooting also should automatically get you out of cloak, much like in EVE....not sure about hacking. Alternative we coudl have a energy bar that recharge over time and that is exclusively dedicated to clacking...shields/armor should be reduced accordingly as a trade off for this system. Cloak CPU/GPU consumption should be tuned so that we would be able to use only light weapons with it (AR, SR, SG, SMG): no forge gun, swarm, gatling, et... As for how cloakign could look like I suggest we take the inspiration form other Unreal Engine games: -Mass Effect has a great cloaking and the effect is very cool. -Transformers War for Cybertron has a fantastic cloaking... if not too perfect: you are ridiculously hard to see! For the cloak to be more visible we could have a flicker like in Killzone or, even cooler, have blue electrical discharges passing through the body that outlines our silhouette. Final technical note: which button would activate cloaking? As for now the only unused button is "left directional pad" but frankly I would prefer to have it on R2/L2
[Veteran_Nos Grey] 0	Posted - 2012.06.12 16:07:00 - [16] - Quote Using shield energy is actually a better idea than stamina drain. +1 to you sir, and yes limit cloak use to light weapons only. Seems like this would would make cloaks more beneficial for light suits over the heavies. Not saying heavier suits shouldn't be able to use it, just not as effectively.
[Veteran_Templar Two] 0	Posted - 2012.06.12 16:16:00 - [17] - Quote I am not sure if every dropsuit should be allowed to use cloak: heavies (900Hp or more) + cloak + shotgun = invisible beast. It could be that to effectively use cloak dropsuit needs to be made of a specific material: a very energy conducing one but a weak one as well. That could explain why heavy dropsuits won't be able to sue cloak.
[Veteran_UltraMind Regenersis] 0	Posted - 2012.06.12 17:21:00 - [18] - Quote Hell the thought of a cloaked scout suit running to an objective and throwing down a drop uplink is bad enough...... Or when sensors and detection come into play - a scout suit hunkered down near an objective spotting hostiles for a big tank.
[Veteran_dent 308] 0	Posted - 2012.06.12 17:29:00 - [19] - Quote cloak / tank / gank Pick two
[Veteran_Buzzwords] 0	Posted - 2012.06.12 17:30:00 - [20] - Quote i'd like to see scouts and logistics able to use cloak myself. atm scouts don't seem to have to much going for them ( i mean we all hate bunny hopping, but is that really something to build a suit around?) and logis are the one thing you'd wanna hide, right? cloaking isn't just for infiltrating, it could be a defensive tool. but i do see an issue with how to balance it... i almost feel like... if you made the cloak a "weapon" that took up a light weapon slot, that might do it? a cloaked logi would be weaponless. a cloaked scout, assault, or heavy would be restricted to sidearm only. you could even make it so that the cloak only functions while the weapon is drawn to mitigate combat abuse, OR make it so it only functions while the trigger is being held, using up "ammo" in the form of a charge. a larger suit would need more effort on the part of the module to stay cloaked, so a heavy might get a few seconds out of what could keep a scout cloaked for much longer. you definitely do need some way to BALANCE it amongst the different suits, but i dunno if you need to completely restrict it to one suit type.

[Veteran_Steve Mitchell] 0	Posted - 2012.06.12 17:50:00 - [21] - Quote BALEETED due to similarity.
[Veteran_Templar Two] 0	Posted - 2012.06.12 17:56:00 - [22] - Quote Sidearms only or no weapons at all would make cloak more a burden than anything. One thing is balance another is punishment.
[Veteran_RolyatDerTeufel] 0	Posted - 2012.06.12 17:57:00 - [23] - Quote Steve Mitchell wrote: How about this... The cloak is a cheap module for a dropsuit which replaces shields? First off, great thread Orin. and great feedback from everyone. I think since you would need to toggle the cloak on and off it'd have to be equipment kinda module. you could have it so that you need to run with that equipment out and if you change to a weapon then you lose cloak and become an easy target for x ammount of time after cloak.
[Veteran_Eflin Trollunge] 0	Posted - 2012.06.12 18:00:00 - [24] - Quote Steve Mitchell wrote: How about this... The cloak is a cheap module for a dropsuit which replaces shields? so more like stargate atlantis cloaking XD and personally as long as I can still use REs with it to be a sabatour I'm okay with any form of cloak or OC And for the people saying well this isnt this game this is eve in eve cloaking does this.. the point is Cloaking makes something completely invisible What everyone else seems to be talking about with Halo and Killzone 3 is Optical camouflage....heck we have Optical camouflage prototypes now The point is true cloaking on an individual level might be to much, I'd bet anything that the claoking devices in eve online are massive pieces of tech bigger then a car engine at least. however OC can be threaded throughout the suit So I think they Killzone 3 and halo styles would be best and most fair
[Veteran_Templar Two] 0	Posted - 2012.06.12 18:06:00 - [25] - Quote Steve Mitchell wrote: How about this... The cloak is a cheap module for a dropsuit which replaces shields? This is basically the same idea porposed by Nos
[Veteran_Steve Mitchell] 0	Posted - 2012.06.12 18:07:00 - [26] - Quote Templar Two wrote: Steve Mitchell wrote: How about this... The cloak is a cheap module for a dropsuit which replaces shields? This is basically the same idea porposed by Nos Whoops, my bad. I'll see if I can delete.
[Veteran_Buzzwords] 0	Posted - 2012.06.12 18:16:00 - [27] - Quote Templar Two wrote: Sidearms only or no weapons at all would make cloak more a burden than anything. One thing is balance another is punishment. well i guess the important question here is; is cloaking a combat function, or a utility function? because if it's a combat function then yes, using a light slot is a crippling penalty. but if it's a utility function... reporting enemy movements, hacking objectives, dropping a spawn uplink in an advantageous area, getting to that crippled tank unmolested to repair it... then i feel using up a light slot is a perfectly fair tradeoff, as it CEMENTS cloaking as a utility function. (which i believe it should be.)
[Veteran_Sin3 DeusNomine] 0	Posted - 2012.06.12 19:03:00 - [28] - Quote Cloaking well first I will go over my idea's before they come out with a usless module for cloaks. Dust like eve is a module based games and one module counters another is how eve is set up. You have one thing you give up another. I will go over 3 points Infantry/Vehicle's/Defense Infantry -This should be scout only use If they choose to allow other drop suits make it a serious disadvantage to them. Why scouts well they are a low shield low HP class you drop a grenade on them there dead if they mess up and do not take you out very quickly you can usually turn around and drop them fast -Cloak should be a constant running iteam and should not drain anything -Cloak should cripple shields down to 75% because they will use them to bend light around a player causing them to become almost invisible * Mass effect 3 has a good looking cloak effect easy to see up close but hard to see far away Video On how it Looks Just so you see how it looks -What causes decloaking Shooting your gun Interacting(AKA Hacking) throwing Grenades knifing -Should take up a midslot -What happens if shot while cloaked You should distort or become partly visible This is not decloaking just makes you easier to track if they completely take out your shields then you decloak and have to regen part of the shields and also wait for cloak cool down timer -Cool down timer for when decloak before you can recloak should be there 15-20 seconds about. Vehicles -There should be special classes mad up for this. LAVs and drop ship being the only ones that can cloak HAVs should never have this option. -There should be no guns on these ships there just to be used for quick cloaked up transport -If someone enters or exits the vehicle the cloak should go down for about a 5 second period -You should not be able to start a lock on a vehicle while cloaked -If you start your lock on during a moment they are uncloaked even if they cloak up the lock should not break. -if a drop ship or LAV run into something hard enough to cause damage it should act like someone entering or leaving one of these ships a 5 second de cloak session Defense -SHould be a piece of equipment -You drop it down like a nano hive or link but it has a greater area of reach where it distorts light causing decloaking apon enterence. So you know someone is running a vehicle down the road you drop one they hit the area of effect and they are decloacked You can then drop these close to objectives you are protecting to cause the declocking of anyone who gets close to the area. -It should effect friendlies as much as it does enemies. That is my idea basically.
[Veteran_NewOldMan] 0	Posted - 2012.06.12 19:36:00 - [29] - Quote I think in order to balance cloaking for any dropsuit, Have it drain shield at a continuous rate, as well as having a cloak activation penalty to shield (take a chunk out) Cause if you have it drain the stamina bar, that wouldn't last very long at all, and would make it pointless if it only lasted a few seconds. Cause really, what can you do if you're only invisible for few seconds and running will cause it to go out faster...
[Veteran_Templar Two] 0	Posted - 2012.06.12 19:43:00 - [30] - Quote NewOldMan I feel ignored :(



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