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Boot Booter Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.07.31 17:31:00 - [1] - Quote What's the most unique and interesting thing about dust? Being able to create unique fittings. However usually the best way to make suits is to stack as much hp as you can. Obviously the very skilled get away with a little more versatility but seriously what's the point? Stack 1000 hp with very minimal speed reduction, equip a rifle, win. Ttk needs to be increased and hp mods need to be nerfed in terms of capacity costs. Also a speed reduction to ALL armor needs to be increased.
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 611	Posted - 2015.07.31 17:41:00 - [2] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: What's the most unique and interesting thing about dust? Being able to create unique fittings. However usually the best way to make suits is to stack as much hp as you can. Obviously the very skilled get away with a little more versatility but seriously what's the point? Stack 1000 hp with very minimal speed reduction, equip a rifle, win. Ttk needs to be increased and hp mods need to be nerfed in terms of capacity costs. Also a speed reduction to ALL armor needs to be increased. less HP means less versatility, genius. lol
Boot Booter Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.07.31 17:47:00 - [3] - Quote Hp mods you idiot
Bradric Banewolf D3ATH CARD RUST415 1	Posted - 2015.07.31 17:51:00 - [4] - Quote Who tanks armor anymore? Speed kills, tank armor on an assault and witness the true power of the isk kin combat rifle at your own peril lol! "Anybody order chaos?"
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.07.31 17:51:00 - [5] - Quote let's see. Where's my list? We begin with the radar. that thing which covers 120m, yet the dropsuits you use have a passive scan range that doesn't reach out and touch the inner ring. Now let's add all of the EWAR BS on top of that simple fact. There's most of the alternative high and low slot utility neutralized right there. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 611	Posted - 2015.07.31 17:51:00 - [6] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: Hp mods you idiot same ****, they enable you to do more. Lowering TTK in any way means you're able to do less. Lowering the value actually may mean i use the other mods less because you're making HP more valuable. But the other way around? More HP on mods means i only need one or two and can do other things with the free space :)
Boot Booter Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.07.31 17:56:00 - [7] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: Boot Booter wrote: Hp mods you idiot same ****, they enable you to do more. Lowering TTK in any way means you're able to do less. Lowering the value actually may mean i use the other mods less because you're making HP more valuable. But the other way around? More HP on mods means i only need one or two and can do other things with the free space :) So decrease weapon dps to compensate. That's the point.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.07.31 18:07:00 - [8] - Quote Boot Booter for CPM2! Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.07.31 18:11:00 - [9] - Quote Bradric Banewolf wrote: Who tanks armor anymore? Speed kills, tank armor on an assault and witness the true power of the isk kin combat rifle at your own peril lol! Looking at usage rates, pretty much everyone. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.07.31 18:12:00 - [10] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Bradric Banewolf wrote: Who tanks armor anymore? Speed kills, tank armor on an assault and witness the true power of the isk kin combat rifle at your own peril lol! Looking at usage rates, pretty much everyone. I'll stick to the amarr and galassaults WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.

Boot Booter Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.07.31 18:12:00 - [11] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: Boot Booter wrote: Hp mods you idiot same ****, they enable you to do more. Lowering TTK in any way means you're able to do less. Lowering the value actually may mean i use the other mods less because you're making HP more valuable. But the other way around? More HP on mods means i only need one or two and can do other things with the free space :) No that just means that scrub can stack even more hp. Hp needs to be less valuable. Active tanks and speed tanks need to be resurrected before this game becomes fun and interesting again.
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 612	Posted - 2015.07.31 18:15:00 - [12] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: Boot Booter wrote: Hp mods you idiot same ****, they enable you to do more. Lowering TTK in any way means you're able to do less. Lowering the value actually may mean i use the other mods less because you're making HP more valuable. But the other way around? More HP on mods means i only need one or two and can do other things with the free space :) No that just means that scrub can stack even more hp. Hp needs to be less valuable. Active tanks and speed tanks need to be resurrected before this game becomes fun and interesting again. lol, if I can get my suit to 1000 EHP, i'd have the longevity needed to sustain all sorts of fire fights and be able to move around, and i'd have my extra slots doing other things. while that 2000EHP stacked player only has one thing going for him - he's a tank. HP at a point becomes less valuable then versatility you seem to desire.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.07.31 18:20:00 - [13] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Bradric Banewolf wrote: Who tanks armor anymore? Speed kills, tank armor on an assault and witness the true power of the isk kin combat rifle at your own peril lol! Looking at usage rates, pretty much everyone. I'll stick to the amarr and galassaults What do you run in those low slots? If you're running the same thing as everyone else, 9/10 times it will be brick-related modules. We could nerf brick and encourage more loadout variety. Or (theoretically) we could buff everything else to perform on par with brick. At the moment, Boot has a point in that HP > All Else. A competent player running a Regen, Speed or EWAR fit should be just as viable as a competent player stacking brick atop more brick. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 612	Posted - 2015.07.31 18:22:00 - [14] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Bradric Banewolf wrote: Who tanks armor anymore? Speed kills, tank armor on an assault and witness the true power of the isk kin combat rifle at your own peril lol! Looking at usage rates, pretty much everyone. I'll stick to the amarr and galassaults What do you run in those low slots? If you're running the same thing as everyone else, 9/10 times it will be brick-related module. never ever use plates Maybe if you're an Amarr heavy going to stand on your objective and be no where else, never, ever, brick tank.
Boot Booter Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.07.31 18:22:00 - [15] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: Boot Booter wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: Boot Booter wrote: Hp mods you idiot same **, they enable you to do more. Lowering TTK in any way means you're able to do less. Lowering the value actually may mean i use the other mods less because you're making HP more valuable. But the other way around? More HP on mods means i only need one or two and can do other things with the free space :) No that just means that scrub can stack even more hp. Hp needs to be less valuable. Active tanks and speed tanks need to be resurrected before this game becomes fun and interesting again. lol, if I can get my suit to 1000 EHP, i'd have the longevity needed to sustain all sorts of fire fights and be able to move around, and i'd have my extra slots doing other things. while that 2000EHP stacked player only has one thing going for him - he's a tank. HP at a point becomes less valuable then versatility you seem to desire. I see your point but I think that is solved instead by increasing ttk and hp capacity costs. Why would you need 1000 hp to survive a fire fight. That's ***** ridiculous. I remember when we use to have about 500 to 600 to survive a fire fight.
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 612	Posted - 2015.07.31 18:27:00 - [16] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: Boot Booter wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: Boot Booter wrote: Hp mods you idiot same **, they enable you to do more. Lowering TTK in any way means you're able to do less. Lowering the value actually may mean i use the other mods less because you're making HP more valuable. But the other way around? More HP on mods means i only need one or two and can do other things with the free space :) No that just means that scrub can stack even more hp. Hp needs to be less valuable. Active tanks and speed tanks need to be resurrected before this game becomes fun and interesting again. lol, if I can get my suit to 1000 EHP, i'd have the longevity needed to sustain all sorts of fire fights and be able to move around, and i'd have my extra slots doing other things. while that 2000EHP stacked player only has one thing going for him - he's a tank. HP at a point becomes less valuable then versatility you seem to desire. I see your point but I think that is solved instead by increasing ttk and hp capacity costs. Why would you need 1000 hp to survive a fire fight. That's ***** ridiculous. I remember when we use to have about 500 to 600 to survive a fire fight. numbers are relative, they didn't mean the same then as they do now. We didn't have built in resistance in our suits, either. just the difference between armor and shields meta. But now we have different types of weapon resistance for each race and different damage multipliers for guns. And to be frank, higher numbers work better with mathz. Enables developers to do trickier things and enable more versatility for us.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.07.31 18:27:00 - [17] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: never ever use plates Today's Top 10 Low Slot Sales, courtesy of: http://dust.thang.dk/market_tryhardinator.php #1 - Enhanced Plates #2 - Basic Plates #3 - Enhanced Ferro Plates #4 - Enhanced Reactive Plates #5 - Complex Ferro Plates #6 - Enhanced Armor Repair #7 - Basic Reactive Plates #8 - Complex Reactive Plates #9 - Complex KinCat #10 - Complex Armor Plates What is Ranked: Brick, brick-related modules, and a module which offsets a penalty to stacking brick. What is Not Ranked: Everything else in the game. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.07.31 19:32:00 - [18] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Bradric Banewolf wrote: Who tanks armor anymore? Speed kills, tank armor on an assault and witness the true power of the isk kin combat rifle at your own peril lol! Looking at usage rates, pretty much everyone. I'll stick to the amarr and galassaults And what do you run in those low slots? If you're running the same thing as nearly everyone else, 9/10 times it will be brick-related modules. Why is brick so dominant? Should it be? I never mix shields with armor. You gimp yourself if you run full brick. There should never be any stigma associated with using 1-3 slots for HP mods. That's all I ever need. Usually I run 2. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Ghost Kaisar Negative-Feedback 12	Posted - 2015.07.31 20:00:00 - [19] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: never ever use plates Today's Top 10 Low Slot Sales, courtesy of: http://dust.thang.dk/market_tryhardinator.php #1 - Enhanced Armor Plates #2 - Basic Armor Plates #3 - Enhanced Ferro Armor Plates #4 - Enhanced Reactive Armor Plates #5 - Complex Ferro Armor Plates #6 - Enhanced Armor Repair #7 - Basic Reactive Armor Plates #8 - Complex Reactive Armor Plates #9 - Complex KinCat #10 - Complex Armor Plates What is Ranked: Armor. And one module which offsets a penalty to stacking Armor. What is Not Ranked: Everything else in the game. Versatility? Variety? Balance? Never ever use plates? (What am I missing?) Cola is exaggerating, but he isn't wrong either. Brick tanking is such a bad idea it isn't even funny. But if you need a boost of HP, a plate is almost never a bad idea. The only race that CAN'T armor tank well is the Caldari. Min can easily do it, and the Amarr and Gal are native armor tankers. It makes sense that they are bought more. They are useful on more suits. Comparisons so all can see how bad brick tanking is. 1500 HP Amarr Assault. Ahhhh yeah. Look at this sucker. 1100 armor. Time to go slaughter right? You have no shield rep, no armor rep, no damage mods. No hives. You might cheese one guy. Maybe two. Now what? YOU HAVE NO REPAIR! YOU SPRINT SLOWER THAN A MIN ASSAULT WALKS. Now look at this fit: The Smart Amarr Assault. You have 624 armor. Around 900 hp total. You're at 60% the other suits health roughly. But guess what? You deal 13% extra damage flat, which means your scrambler is sitting at 93/133 damage to shields and armor. You aren't slow either, you sprint at 7 m/s, like any other assault. You have 24 hp/s armor rep, which is 20x the previous suits. You literally regen 20 TIMES FASTER. You have more than enough health and damage to win fights, and can quickly regen and move to another location. Play smart people. Brick tanking just makes you slow and vulnerable. Currently listening to: Tsukihime OST Un-Retired PC Scout. I miss the old days ;_;
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 613	Posted - 2015.07.31 20:13:00 - [20] - Quote The only time Plates become a better choice is if you accompany it with a speed mod, but the strafe will still take the hit when you get into confrontation. in pratical play, if you're going to rely on less speed and more health to win, then you're quite literally just relying on your skill of aim to win. But the player who doesn't use plate and takes advantage of his speed will have several advantages at his disposal. He can have aim and positioning. This makes the weapon types in the game stand out more, and makes certain weapons that excel at duck and cover tactics feel much more OP to the people tanking. Your data might actually suggest why ScR feel OP to people - they're all brick tanking, with no speed to deal with duck and cover maneuvers. I bet scouts are havin' fun too with damps and shot guns.

Ghost Kaisar Negative-Feedback 12	Posted - 2015.07.31 20:23:00 - [21] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: The only time Plates become a better choice is if you accompany it with a speed mod, but the strafe will still take the hit when you get into confrontation. in pratical play, if you're going to rely on less speed and more health to win, then you're quite literally just relying on your skill of aim to win. But the player who doesn't use plate and takes advantage of his speed will have several advantages at his disposal. He can have aim and positioning. This makes the weapon types in the game stand out more, and makes certain weapons that excel at duck and cover tactics feel much more OP to the people tanking. Your data might actually suggest why ScR feel OP to people - they're all brick tanking, with no speed to deal with duck and cover maneuvers. I bet scouts are havin' fun too with damps and shot guns. That's why I don't run speed mods on Amarr or Gal suits. Just run ferros and take advantage of your high base stats. Triple Ferro Dual Rep fits are deceptively strong in tank, speed, and regen. Couple with a bit of shield to counter RR and CR a bit, and slap on some damage mods for flat damage bonuses. This is how you slay. Not by brick tanking. Currently listening to: Tsukihime OST Un-Retired PC Scout. I miss the old days ;_;
The Eristic Vader's-Fist 1	Posted - 2015.07.31 20:24:00 - [22] - Quote HP stacking is boring most of the time, but until regen and "utility" mods get a buff (especially in terms of fitting), it's probably all we'll see, as most people can't see past the numbers plates provide vs their fitting costs. I'd also be interested in something more EVEish regarding HP mods, where individual mods might have high values, but would also be more difficult to fit (in particular if Large/Medium/Small variants were to be introduced), making it impractical to slam raw HP in most situations. Reality is the original Rorschach. Verily! So much for all that.
Boot Booter Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.07.31 20:26:00 - [23] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: The only time Plates become a better choice is if you accompany it with a speed mod, but the strafe will still take the hit when you get into confrontation. in pratical play, if you're going to rely on less speed and more health to win, then you're quite literally just relying on your skill of aim to win. But the player who doesn't use plate and takes advantage of his speed will have several advantages at his disposal. He can have aim and positioning. This makes the weapon types in the game stand out more, and makes certain weapons that excel at duck and cover tactics feel much more OP to the people tanking. Your data might actually suggest why ScR feel OP to people - they're all brick tanking, with no speed to deal with duck and cover maneuvers. I bet scouts are havin' fun too with damps and shot guns. That's why I don't run speed mods on Amarr or Gal suits. Just run ferros and take advantage of your high base stats. Triple Ferro Dual Rep fits are deceptively strong in tank, speed, and regen. Couple with a bit of shield to counter RR and CR a bit, and slap on some damage mods for flat damage bonuses. This is how you slay. Not by brick tanking. Aka hp and dps. Two out of your 8 available slots are dedicated to something other than hp and dps. This is my point exactly.
Boot Booter Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.07.31 20:31:00 - [24] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: never ever use plates Today's Top 10 Low Slot Sales, courtesy of: http://dust.thang.dk/market_tryhardinator.php #1 - Enhanced Armor Plates #2 - Basic Armor Plates #3 - Enhanced Ferro Armor Plates #4 - Enhanced Reactive Armor Plates #5 - Complex Ferro Armor Plates #6 - Enhanced Armor Repair #7 - Basic Reactive Armor Plates #8 - Complex Reactive Armor Plates #9 - Complex KinCat #10 - Complex Armor Plates What is Ranked: Armor. And one module which offsets a penalty to stacking Armor. What is Not Ranked: Everything else in the game. Versatility? Variety? Balance? Never ever use plates? (What am I missing?) Cola is exaggerating, but he isn't wrong either. Brick tanking is such a bad idea it isn't even funny. But if you need a boost of HP, a plate is almost never a bad idea. The only race that CAN'T armor tank well is the Caldari. Min can easily do it, and the Amarr and Gal are native armor tankers. It makes sense that they are bought more. They are useful on more suits. Comparisons so all can see how bad brick tanking is. 1500 HP Amarr Assault. Ahhhh yeah. Look at this sucker. 1100 armor. Time to go slaughter right? You have no shield rep, no armor rep, no damage mods. No hives. You might cheese one guy. Maybe two. Now what? YOU HAVE NO REPAIR! YOU SPRINT SLOWER THAN A MIN ASSAULT WALKS. Now look at this fit: The Smart Amarr Assault. You have 624 armor. Around 900 hp total. You're at 60% the other suits health roughly. But guess what? You deal 13% extra damage flat, which means your scrambler is sitting at 93/133 damage to shields and armor. You aren't slow either, you sprint at 7 m/s, like any other assault. You have 24 hp/s armor rep, which is 20x the previous suits. You literally regen 20 TIMES FASTER. You have more than enough health and damage to win fights, and can quickly regen and move to another location. Play smart people. Brick tanking just makes you slow and vulnerable. Once again 2 out of 8 mods dedicated to regeneration. While half are dedicated to hp. This is what is wrong with the game.
Louis Domi Tugastroy Evil Syndicate Alliance. 1	Posted - 2015.07.31 20:44:00 - [25] - Quote What I hear when someone say nerf hp: Nerf the ** out of armor and armor based suits. Keep shields and shield based suits as is cause they are already kinda bad. +1 Delt for CPM2, Shadowed Cola for CPM2, Breaking For CPM2**
maybe deadcatz the nomercs 394	Posted - 2015.07.31 20:47:00 - [26] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: Boot Booter wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: Boot Booter wrote: Hp mods you idiot same **, they enable you to do more. Lowering TTK in any way means you're able to do less. Lowering the value actually may mean i use the other mods less because you're making HP more valuable. But the other way around? More HP on mods means i only need one or two and can do other things with the free space :) No that just means that scrub can stack even more hp. Hp needs to be less valuable. Active tanks and speed tanks need to be resurrected before this game becomes fun and interesting again. lol, if I can get my suit to 1000 EHP, i'd have the longevity needed to sustain all sorts of fire fights and be able to move around, and i'd have my extra slots doing other things. while that 2000EHP stacked player only has one thing going for him - he's a tank. HP at a point becomes less valuable then versatility you seem to desire. I see your point but I think that is solved instead by increasing ttk and hp capacity costs. Why would you need 1000 hp to survive a fire fight. That's ***** ridiculous. I remember when we use to have about 500 to 600 to survive a fire fight. I only have 287 hp (75 sheild,212 armour)to play with.(amarr scout with all core hp bonuses,complete speed and repair tank.) I do pretty fine. Average a 200k payout at 9k isk per fit(apex bpo with two complex kincats amd a shotgun.plus adv reps) at 20average kills per match. Need a speedy bro scout? Mail me,comes with shotgun and 20 pound bag of catnip for teh clonocide.(teh fak,cannot spell)
Sicerly Yaw Corrosive Synergy No Context 740	Posted - 2015.07.31 20:48:00 - [27] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: Hp mods you idiot Let me elaborate. Dust infantry is basically a mix of hp, dps, speed, and regeneration. Ewar is another factor but let's just focus on a standard infantry unit. Now on any given suit how many hp mods do you place 50%? 80%? Dust is so far weighted towards hp and dps that speed and regeneration fits get overlooked and in general are UP. Ever wonder why so many people complain about shields? Because they are primarily focused on regeneration. So I'll say it again. Hp mods need to be nerfed and ttk needs to increase before speed and regeneration fits are balanced. TTK is fine as it is, HP mods don't need to be nerfed shield mods may need a bufff tho versatility doesn't need a buff there's plenty of different fits out there that incorporate different types of mods, the reason you see so many just plain stack hp is due to players lacking any imagination shields cant afford to stack almost anything other then shield mods, armor suits can use a verity of low slot mods but choose not to due to point defense tactics that are associated with armor, however many choose to stack damage mods but there are some that use myos and precision mods the suits that make the most use of utility mods are those that are meant to be utility oriented, scouts and logis that is I have many fittings that incorporate different types of mods but I usually try to build off of the strengths of the suit as many players do, and since the majority of suits on the field are heavies and assaults that benefit most from damage and hp mods that is naturally what they will use with the exception of the min that can incorporate many different mods for different play styles due to their ability to tank one way or the other if you want versatility I encourage you to spec into min frames and play around with all the different mods each gives its own advantages but has their own weaknesses click here if you are making a new account and want some free BPO's
Mejt0 Dead Man's Game 2	Posted - 2015.07.31 21:13:00 - [28] - Quote That's the nature of Dust and logis repping you to full health in 5 seconds. Loyal to The State Official Caldari Commando User
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.07.31 22:24:00 - [29] - Quote The Eristic wrote: HP stacking is boring most of the time, but until regen and "utility" mods get a buff (especially in terms of fitting), it's probably all we'll see, as most people can't see past the numbers plates provide vs their fitting costs. I'd also be interested in something more EVEish regarding HP mods, where individual mods might have high values, but would also be more difficult to fit (in particular if Large/Medium/Small variants were to be introduced), making it impractical to slam raw HP in most situations. Increase fitting costs of plates for a quick and easy fix? * By "plates", I mean plates of all types. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Nocturnal Soul Primordial Threat 7	Posted - 2015.07.31 22:33:00 - [30] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: The Eristic wrote: HP stacking is boring most of the time, but until regen and "utility" mods get a buff (especially in terms of fitting), it's probably all we'll see, as most people can't see past the numbers plates provide vs their fitting costs. I'd also be interested in something more EVEish regarding HP mods, where individual mods might have high values, but would also be more difficult to fit (in particular if Large/Medium/Small variants were to be introduced), making it impractical to slam raw HP in most situations. Increase fitting costs of plates for a quick and easy fix? * By "plates", I mean plates of all types. There goes 100% of my fittings if that happens. "The Wrath of God is Immense. His Justice is Swift and Decisive. His Tolerance is Limited."

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.07.31 22:34:00 - [31] - Quote Why exactly do HP mods need nerfing? Almost all of the other mods suck. There's little to no value in using them. If this weren't the case we might see more. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 617	Posted - 2015.08.01 00:30:00 - [32] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: never ever use plates Today's Top 10 Low Slot Sales, courtesy of: http://dust.thang.dk/market_tryhardinator.php #1 - Enhanced Armor Plates #2 - Basic Armor Plates #3 - Enhanced Ferro Armor Plates #4 - Enhanced Reactive Armor Plates #5 - Complex Ferro Armor Plates #6 - Enhanced Armor Repair #7 - Basic Reactive Armor Plates #8 - Complex Reactive Armor Plates #9 - Complex KinCat #10 - Complex Armor Plates What is Ranked: Armor. And one module which offsets a penalty to stacking Armor. What is Not Ranked: Everything else in the game. Versatility? Variety? Balance? Never ever use plates? (What am I missing?) Cola is exaggerating, but he isn't wrong either. Brick tanking is such a bad idea it isn't even funny. But if you need a boost of HP, a plate is almost never a bad idea. The only race that CAN'T armor tank well is the Caldari. Min can easily do it, and the Amarr and Gal are native armor tankers. It makes sense that they are bought more. They are useful on more suits. Comparisons so all can see how bad brick tanking is. 1500 HP Amarr Assault. Ahhhh yeah. Look at this sucker. 1100 armor. Time to go slaughter right? You have no shield rep, no armor rep, no damage mods. No hives. You might cheese one guy. Maybe two. Now what? YOU HAVE NO REPAIR! YOU SPRINT SLOWER THAN A MIN ASSAULT WALKS. Now look at this fit: The Smart Amarr Assault. You have 624 armor. Around 900 hp total. You're at 60% the other suits health roughly. But guess what? You deal 13% extra damage flat, which means your scrambler is sitting at 93/133 damage to shields and armor. You aren't slow either, you sprint at 7 m/s, like any other assault. You have 24 hp/s armor rep, which is 20x the previous suits. You literally regen 20 TIMES FASTER. You have more than enough health and damage to win fights, and can quickly regen and move to another location. Play smart people. Brick tanking just makes you slow and vulnerable. Once again 2 out of 8 mods dedicated to regeneration. While half are dedicated to hp. This is what is wrong with the game. I don't see the problem - the role it's intended is Slayer, which means to kill as quickly as possible and survive. Why would you stack anything but mods specifically designed for this purpose?
Ghost Kaisar Negative-Feedback 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 04:23:00 - [33] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: The only time Plates become a better choice is if you accompany it with a speed mod, but the strafe will still take the hit when you get into confrontation. in pratical play, if you're going to rely on less speed and more health to win, then you're quite literally just relying on your skill of aim to win. But the player who doesn't use plate and takes advantage of his speed will have several advantages at his disposal. He can have aim and positioning. This makes the weapon types in the game stand out more, and makes certain weapons that excel at duck and cover tactics feel much more OP to the people tanking. Your data might actually suggest why ScR feel OP to people - they're all brick tanking, with no speed to deal with duck and cover maneuvers. I bet scouts are havin' fun too with damps and shot guns. That's why I don't run speed mods on Amarr or Gal suits. Just run ferros and take advantage of your high base stats. Triple Ferro Dual Rep fits are deceptively strong in tank, speed, and regen. Couple with a bit of shield to counter RR and CR a bit, and slap on some damage mods for flat damage bonuses. This is how you slay. Not by brick tanking. Aka hp and dps. Two out of your 8 available slots are dedicated to something other than hp and dps. This is my point exactly. Tell me, what is the name of that role? ASSAULT. What is the point of an assault? To rapidly move in and eliminate targets. Best mods for a COMBAT BASED SUIT? HP and Damage mods. No matter what Assault suit you are running, you will be running some form of HP and Damage. It's the point of the damn suit. You want speed and regen? You have some mods for flexibility. You want full speed and regen on an assault? Guess what, not viable. You have no health, and cant survive alpha damage. You have no ewar. You will get torn to shreds. AND THIS IS TOTALLY OKAY. Mods are made for "wiggle room" so to speak. They let you tweak the suit to your tastes. Not make it become something it just plain isn't Nothing is stopping you from running a full speed and regen tanked Assault suit. You just need to realize you will be heavily outclassed by every assault you meet, and will soon realize that what you're actually trying to play is a scout. That being said, I still think shields need a slight buff. They're not bad, they just are heavily situational, which sucks for an entire race. Armor can run low health high regen suits or High health low regen suits. Shields really don't have that option. No matter what they do, they just won't have enough health to justify a pure shield tank. Shields are just not really viable in CQC without HEAVILY investing in speed. And I'm not sure how to fix it. I can't think of any options that won't be heavily abused to create monster shield suits Currently listening to: Tsukihime OST Un-Retired PC Scout. I miss the old days ;_;
Ghost Kaisar Negative-Feedback 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 04:25:00 - [34] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: Boot Booter wrote: Once again 2 out of 8 mods dedicated to regeneration. While half are dedicated to hp. This is what is wrong with the game. I don't see the problem - the role it's intended is Slayer, which means to kill as quickly as possible and survive. Why would you stack anything but mods specifically designed for this purpose? Because he wants the old assault scouts back basically. I want to have high regen and speed and not get instakilled. Yeah, I remember that time in PC, I'd rather not go back to it. Currently listening to: Tsukihime OST Un-Retired PC Scout. I miss the old days ;_;
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 14:50:00 - [35] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Because he wants the old assault scouts back basically. The last thing I'd want to see is another round of Assault Lite FoTM. It would be nice, however, to see more loadout variety when it comes to low slots. We see lots battlefield variety in dropsuits, primary weapons, secondary weapons, equipment, high slots and even vehicles. I see no reason why we should attempt to excuse an utter lack of variety in low slot module utilization when variety can be found quite literally everywhere else. Nerfing Armor Plates won't resurrect Assault Lite, but it very well might make other low slot modules more attractive. Buffing other low slot modules could accomplish the same, but this approach would be far less efficient and more risky. In my estimation, increasing fitting requirements for plates would likely be the least risky and most efficient path to greater low slot variety. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.08.01 15:04:00 - [36] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: . Nerfing Armor Plates won't resurrect Assault Lite, but it very well might make other low slot modules more attractive. Buffing other low slot modules could accomplish the same, but this approach would be far less efficient and more risky. In my estimation, increasing fitting requirements for plates would likely be the least risky and most efficient path to greater low slot variety. No nerfing armor plates won't make the other mods attractive because they're pieces of crap. Damps aren't more than peripherally useful and are this side of worthless for sentinels. Scan range mods? They're a joke. Oh wait! How about lots of armor reps? ... The only things useful more than peripherally and for special tasks that require an alternate method in the lows are: the three plates. Kincats. Cardiac regs for wierdos like me who prefer marathon running to sprinting. Since regulators are only really useful on caldari and minmatar suits? Right. Yes, nerfing plates will absolutely solve a problem of undesirable low slot mods. Buff the mods. This idea is the lazy, low-effort, no reward route. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 15:12:00 - [37] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: . Nerfing Armor Plates won't resurrect Assault Lite, but it very well might make other low slot modules more attractive. Buffing other low slot modules could accomplish the same, but this approach would be far less efficient and more risky. In my estimation, increasing fitting requirements for plates would likely be the least risky and most efficient path to greater low slot variety. No nerfing armor plates won't make the other mods attractive because they're pieces of crap. Damps aren't more than peripherally useful and are this side of worthless for sentinels. Scan range mods? They're a joke. Oh wait! How about lots of armor reps? ... The only things useful more than peripherally and for special tasks that require an alternate method in the lows are: the three plates. Kincats. Cardiac regs for wierdos like me who prefer marathon running to sprinting. Since regulators are only really useful on caldari and minmatar suits? Right. Yes, nerfing plates will absolutely solve a problem of undesirable low slot mods. Buff the mods. This idea is the lazy, low-effort, no reward route. Increased low-slot variety is the reward. We can take the risky road to that end, or we can take the obvious and direct route. If we take the direct route, we also have a shot at fixing Armor v Shield imbalance. Two birds with one nerf. The alternate route -- buff all else -- runs the risk of introducing new imbalance. But what specific buffs do you have mind? Maybe we put our heads together and cook something up ... Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 628	Posted - 2015.08.01 15:19:00 - [38] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: . Nerfing Armor Plates won't resurrect Assault Lite, but it very well might make other low slot modules more attractive. Buffing other low slot modules could accomplish the same, but this approach would be far less efficient and more risky. In my estimation, increasing fitting requirements for plates would likely be the least risky and most efficient path to greater low slot variety. No nerfing armor plates won't make the other mods attractive because they're pieces of crap. Damps aren't more than peripherally useful and are this side of worthless for sentinels. Scan range mods? They're a joke. Oh wait! How about lots of armor reps? ... The only things useful more than peripherally and for special tasks that require an alternate method in the lows are: the three plates. Kincats. Cardiac regs for wierdos like me who prefer marathon running to sprinting. Since regulators are only really useful on caldari and minmatar suits? Right. Yes, nerfing plates will absolutely solve a problem of undesirable low slot mods. Buff the mods. This idea is the lazy, low-effort, no reward route. Increased low-slot variety is the reward. We can take the risky road to that end, or we can take the obvious and direct route. If we take the direct route, we also have a shot at fixing Armor v Shield imbalance. Two birds with one nerf. You're making assumptions. Just because my armor mod no longer gives me 50 to 75+ health NEVER USE PLAAAAAATESSSSS! doesn't change the fact my heavy and assault suit still don't care 2 licks for the other mods, because my intended role is slayer. Now if my intended role was support - why would i still use anything but mods to increase my survivability so i can keep repping and dropping nano/links? Only the scout has any need for the other mods, and if you are a scout not using them, you're likely a very, very, very bad player. So I don't, again, see the problem here.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.08.01 15:22:00 - [39] - Quote None of the other low slot mods are particularly useful to any role but scout. There will be no change in fitting meta. The only thing the suggestion accomplishes is nerfing all of the other roles. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
CommanderBolt KILL-EM-QUICK Rise Of Legion. 3	Posted - 2015.08.01 15:32:00 - [40] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: never ever use plates Today's Top 10 Low Slot Sales, courtesy of: http://dust.thang.dk/market_tryhardinator.php #1 - Enhanced Armor Plates #2 - Basic Armor Plates #3 - Enhanced Ferro Armor Plates #4 - Enhanced Reactive Armor Plates #5 - Complex Ferro Armor Plates #6 - Enhanced Armor Repair #7 - Basic Reactive Armor Plates #8 - Complex Reactive Armor Plates #9 - Complex KinCat #10 - Complex Armor Plates What is Ranked: Armor. And one module which offsets a penalty to stacking Armor. What is Not Ranked: Everything else in the game. Versatility? Variety? Balance? Never ever use plates? (What am I missing?) Cola is exaggerating, but he isn't wrong either. Brick tanking is such a bad idea it isn't even funny. But if you need a boost of HP, a plate is almost never a bad idea. The only race that CAN'T armor tank well is the Caldari. Min can easily do it, and the Amarr and Gal are native armor tankers. It makes sense that they are bought more. They are useful on more suits. Comparisons so all can see how bad brick tanking is. 1500 HP Amarr Assault. Ahhhh yeah. Look at this sucker. 1100 armor. Time to go slaughter right? You have no shield rep, no armor rep, no damage mods. No hives. You might cheese one guy. Maybe two. Now what? YOU HAVE NO REPAIR! YOU SPRINT SLOWER THAN A MIN ASSAULT WALKS. Now look at this fit: The Smart Amarr Assault. You have 624 armor. Around 900 hp total. You're at 60% the other suits health roughly. But guess what? You deal 13% extra damage flat, which means your scrambler is sitting at 93/133 damage to shields and armor. You aren't slow either, you sprint at 7 m/s, like any other assault. You have 24 hp/s armor rep, which is 20x the previous suits. You literally regen 20 TIMES FASTER. You have more than enough health and damage to win fights, and can quickly regen and move to another location. Play smart people. Brick tanking just makes you slow and vulnerable. Not to steal your thunder or anything but that brick fit is similar to something I used to use and it does have 1 very useful role.... door gunning on dropships or even possibly gunning on an LAV. Smaller hitbox than a sentinel and a ton of HP. admitedly I would probs have at least some repair mod. Otherwise you are right. "Madness how we turned our common-ground into a battle-ground.." - Essa

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 15:46:00 - [41] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: So I don't, again, see the problem here. Let's pick another game. One with lots of options: https://youtu.be/NXmy8kUE5qc?t=20 Now imagine if this game had one type of gizmo that worked better than all other types of gizmos. Despite millions of possible configurations, in the vast majority of tryhard siege wagons created this great gizmo could be found. Not just once, but stacked over and over again. What do you think this game's developers would do? Back to Dust, for 6 straight months 80% or better of every killfeed in every match read: "Assault Rifle" At the time, did you see this as a problem? It seems obvious now that we're accustomed to battlefield variety, but at that time (as I'm sure you recall) there were some who didn't see the problem. A few of 'em are running for CPM2. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.08.01 15:52:00 - [42] - Quote Some people didn't see a problem with scouts being completely undetectable except by one solitary niche fit while being able to instagib everyone before the cloak dropped either. They also protested that a calscout dancing dirctly through an HMG spray without taking a single point of damage wasn't broken at all. They also in closed beta cried very loudly that scouts were worthless unless they were completely undetectable. Those arguments cut both ways. This suggestion of yours falls into these examples by accomplishing nothing but making it easier for a shotgun to the back to work before the target has a chance to react. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 628	Posted - 2015.08.01 15:55:00 - [43] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: [ So I don't, again, see the problem here. Let's pick another game. One with lots of options: https://youtu.be/NXmy8kUE5qc?t=20 Now imagine if this game had one type of gizmo that worked better than all other types of gizmos. In every tryhard siege wagon created, that gizmo could be found. Not just once, but stacked. What do you think this game's developers would do? Back to Dust, for 6 straight months 80% or better of every killfeed in every match read: "Assault Rifle" At the time, did you see this as a problem? It seems obvious now that we're accustomed to battlefield variety, but at the time (as I'm sure you recall) there were some who didn't see the problem. A few of 'em are running for CPM2. o.0 See, i can't view this post as anything but an opinion, because, it quite literally is. A biased one at that. You just compared Dust to a completely different game with a completely different design concept. This is an FPS - generally speaking, you want to kill or be killed. other roles are support, which means supply, heal, scans, or ranged DPS. What you want: Ninjas, Jedi's, Samurai's, basically, you want versatility to mean slight alterations to play style to get dramatically different results. Dust doesn't have that because FPS's can't provide what you're looking for without a hefty increase to TTK to give the less health oriented suits a chance, otherwise it makes No DESIGN SENSE WHAT SO EVER TO ADD VARIETIES AND SUITS THAT DO NOTHING FOR THE BATTLE OR GAME JUST FOR THE SAKE OF PEOPLE USING DIFFERENT THINGS. Adding play styles for the sake of it in this kind of game is the opposite of what needs to be done. Nerfing and buffing mods should be done with improving what's already here in mind - not trying to add useless versatility to classes that can already utilize what you're looking for to lethal effect. go get a scout suit, shesh. If you're using more health mods then damps or speed then you're just bad.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.08.01 16:00:00 - [44] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: go get a scout suit, shesh. If you're using more health mods then damps or speed then you're just bad. Adipem is pretty much to scouts what I am to AV sentinels. Right now his bias is bleeding onto the floor. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 16:01:00 - [45] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Some people didn't see a problem with scouts being completely undetectable except by one solitary niche fit while being able to instagib everyone before the cloak dropped either. They also protested that a calscout dancing dirctly through an HMG spray without taking a single point of damage wasn't broken at all. They also in closed beta cried very loudly that scouts were worthless unless they were completely undetectable. Those arguments cut both ways. This suggestion of yours falls into these examples by accomplishing nothing but making it easier for a shotgun to the back to work before the target has a chance to react. "Don't nerf Armor ... because Scouts" ^ Is this really your reasoning? Come on, Breakin. You can do better. Dig deep. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 16:04:00 - [46] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: go get a scout suit, shesh. If you're using more health mods then damps or speed then you're just bad. Adipem is pretty much to scouts what I am to AV sentinels. Right now his bias is bleeding onto the floor. http://dust.thang.dk/market_tryhardinator.php ^ Take a peak at low-slot module utilization. That's what imbalance looks like. Explain for me how my bias caused that imbalance to happen. Explain for me why my bias should prevent us from fixing that imbalance. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.08.01 16:05:00 - [47] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Some people didn't see a problem with scouts being completely undetectable except by one solitary niche fit while being able to instagib everyone before the cloak dropped either. They also protested that a calscout dancing dirctly through an HMG spray without taking a single point of damage wasn't broken at all. They also in closed beta cried very loudly that scouts were worthless unless they were completely undetectable. Those arguments cut both ways. This suggestion of yours falls into these examples by accomplishing nothing but making it easier for a shotgun to the back to work before the target has a chance to react. "Don't nerf Armor ... because Scouts" ^ Is this really your reasoning? Come on, Breakin. You can do better. Dig deep. My reasoning is there is no benefit to the playerbase at large except for scout players to be had in this idea. So no, not "because scouts." And the post was in response to your assault rifles bit and the cheap shot at the people running for CPM 2. That argument cuts both ways Mr. "No, scouts are fine." WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 628	Posted - 2015.08.01 16:06:00 - [48] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Some people didn't see a problem with scouts being completely undetectable except by one solitary niche fit while being able to instagib everyone before the cloak dropped either. They also protested that a calscout dancing dirctly through an HMG spray without taking a single point of damage wasn't broken at all. They also in closed beta cried very loudly that scouts were worthless unless they were completely undetectable. Those arguments cut both ways. This suggestion of yours falls into these examples by accomplishing nothing but making it easier for a shotgun to the back to work before the target has a chance to react. "Don't nerf Armor ... because Scouts" ^ Is this really your reasoning? Come on, Breakin. You can do better. Dig deep. Don't nerf armor because of TTK - buff shields. How's that? It doesn't take a genius to see the issue isn't even the numbers but how people are utilizing them - most of my top friend slayers rely more on shield regeneration then armor regeneration to keep them afloat, but stack armor because it's a nice fall back when you get flanked * They'd never use a plate* It is a team based game - you expect the unexpected because the other side will always try to one up you. So yea, don't nerf armors, because scouts. Buff shields instead because of them. That role should be giving you what you want without the need to spend all your slots to health.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.08.01 16:06:00 - [49] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: go get a scout suit, shesh. If you're using more health mods then damps or speed then you're just bad. Adipem is pretty much to scouts what I am to AV sentinels. Right now his bias is bleeding onto the floor. http://dust.thang.dk/market_tryhardinator.php ^ Take a peak at low-slot module utilization. That's what imbalance looks like. Explain for me how my bias caused that imbalance to happen. Explain for me why my bias should prevent us from fixing that imbalance. Because market data is the only barometer of how things are working. Until there are alternative modules that have value to assaults, Logis, Commandos and Sentinels, there is no benefit to nerfing plates the way you want. All you're trying to do is force people to use crap that doesn't provide any measurably useful benefit except in EXTREME edge cases. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 16:07:00 - [50] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: That argument cuts both ways Mr. "No, scouts are fine." When Scouts were OP, I pushed for Scout Nerfs. Rattati knows it. Cross knows it. Everyone in the Barbershop knows it. At no point did I say or imply that "Scouts are Fine". Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 16:10:00 - [51] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: All you're trying to do is force people to use crap that doesn't provide any measurably useful benefit except in EXTREME edge cases. If you think other low slot modules are crap, how do you propose we fix them? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 629	Posted - 2015.08.01 16:13:00 - [52] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: All you're trying to do is force people to use crap that doesn't provide any measurably useful benefit except in EXTREME edge cases. If you think other low slot modules are crap, how do you propose we fix them? How do you purpose we balance tanks? there's no one answer that works for everyone, thus the boat we're in now. someone is always unhappy.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.08.01 16:16:00 - [53] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: How do you purpose we balance tanks? Even though I've actually submitted a solid proposal I still, to this day DESPISE this question. Precisely because of the fact that no matter what answer you come to it will fcking polarize the community sharply and screaming will run nonstop. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Boot Booter Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.08.01 16:27:00 - [54] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: Boot Booter wrote: Once again 2 out of 8 mods dedicated to regeneration. While half are dedicated to hp. This is what is wrong with the game. I don't see the problem - the role it's intended is Slayer, which means to kill as quickly as possible and survive. Why would you stack anything but mods specifically designed for this purpose? Because he wants the old assault scouts back basically. I want to have high regen and speed and not get instakilled. Yeah, I remember that time in PC, I'd rather not go back to it. LOL anyone who has ever played with me knows I never play scout. Even when assaults were garbage and all you fotm scrubs jumped to scouts so you could feel good. All you people with your panties in a bunch because I think it's boring to need to put 50% of my mods as hp just to survive getting ganked. I honestly can't believe I am the only one who thinks it's ridiculous to have "versatility" when really there's only a few truly viable ways to fit suits.
Thaddeus Reynolds Facepunch Security 350	Posted - 2015.08.01 16:28:00 - [55] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: All you're trying to do is force people to use crap that doesn't provide any measurably useful benefit except in EXTREME edge cases. If you think other low slot modules are crap, how do you propose we fix them? Provide alternative modules that actually have a competitive purpose...things like damage mods/RoF mods...hell Range Mods would be something people would think about. if the "EWAR" system wasn't so binary, the EWAR mods would be used...and I know of several suits where Biotics are considered over ferroscales... Nerfing Armor isn't necessarily the solution, providing different options and making the options we do have work is. Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper. Vehicle Re-vamp Proposal
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 630	Posted - 2015.08.01 16:31:00 - [56] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: when really there's only a few truly viable ways to fit suits. Care to put this to the test? I'll let you pick my suit, weapon, whatever you like. feel free to beat me in a 1v1. Use a tank if you want, idc. but i get to choose how i set the mods. Tomorrow around 0400 sound fine? And don't put me in a min scout - it's not fair to you how BS that suit is in 1v1's, lol.
Larkson Crazy Eye WarRavens 148	Posted - 2015.08.01 16:32:00 - [57] - Quote if you think stacking HP = Win I'd have to ask if you've played dust before. Sure in a 1 on 1 engagement, preferably with a logi repping you a lot of HP is a good thing. You'll still die in one shot to a plasma cannon, remote, forge gun, nova knives and most upper end sniper riffles all because your so slow. Armor reps insanely slow even with a couple complex mods. Even with 20-30 reps a second your looking at almost a minute to recover if you have around 1000 armor. Honestly the way to win in dust has pretty much and always will be killing the other guy quickly. Load up on dmg mods, equip a good weapon and profit. Speed/maneuverability helps as well. While the strafe glitch isn't there any more you'll still dodge some bullets. Plus the whole TTK is greatly increased if it takes you less time to get from one kill to another. I will agree shields kind of suck right now, but there isn't a lot they can do. Tweak the numbers a little to much and you get what we used to have in the old flaylock/shotgun scout days. A scout could rush threw a squad blazing away, come out the other side wait half a second and be back at full shields. There was no team work involved with shields. Logi's can do anything to them and if they recover to fast it makes the hard to hit scouts way to OP. Given that shields basically have no draw backs compared to using armor I'd say for the most part shields are okay. Perhaps lower the cost of some the shield mods, but other than that their good. If people want higher shield HP totals, comparable to armor then they need to nerf the base shield recovery of most drop suits. Very few people even need to touch a recharger or regulator. They just stack extenders. Armor on the other hand you have to equip everything. Your drop suits base armor stats are usually pretty pathetic. IF you tried to get by on your base recovery you'd be there a very long time, even in a scout. Ib Halfheart, Goblin Tactician: "Everybody but me--CHARGE!"
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.08.01 16:33:00 - [58] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: All you're trying to do is force people to use crap that doesn't provide any measurably useful benefit except in EXTREME edge cases. If you think other low slot modules are crap, how do you propose we fix them? Until the Scan/damp system isn't "always win/Never win" you can't make them useful. Because no matter what you do, you will never make a heavier suit stealthy enough to get passed by a scout's passive scans. You will always be on the enemy tacnet unless they have no scouts in play. And even if they don't, if you get caught, you don't have the scout mobility to fall back on. You're dead, because your EHP is 1/3rd everyone else's. And you can't cloak. If the so-called EWAR system was dynamic and had a functional use for anything but scouts and gallente logis, this might be a different story. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 630	Posted - 2015.08.01 16:36:00 - [59] - Quote Larkson Crazy Eye wrote: if you think stacking HP = Win I'd have to ask if you've played dust before. Sure in a 1 on 1 engagement, preferably with a logi repping you a lot of HP is a good thing. You'll still die in one shot to a plasma cannon, remote, forge gun, nova knives and most upper end sniper riffles all because your so slow. Armor reps insanely slow even with a couple complex mods. Even with 20-30 reps a second your looking at almost a minute to recover if you have around 1000 armor. Honestly the way to win in dust has pretty much and always will be killing the other guy quickly. Load up on dmg mods, equip a good weapon and profit. Speed/maneuverability helps as well. While the strafe glitch isn't there any more you'll still dodge some bullets. Plus the whole TTK is greatly increased if it takes you less time to get from one kill to another. I will agree shields kind of suck right now, but there isn't a lot they can do. Tweak the numbers a little to much and you get what we used to have in the old flaylock/shotgun scout days. A scout could rush threw a squad blazing away, come out the other side wait half a second and be back at full shields. There was no team work involved with shields. Logi's can do anything to them and if they recover to fast it makes the hard to hit scouts way to OP. Given that shields basically have no draw backs compared to using armor I'd say for the most part shields are okay. Perhaps lower the cost of some the shield mods, but other than that their good. If people want higher shield HP totals, comparable to armor then they need to nerf the base shield recovery of most drop suits. Very few people even need to touch a recharger or regulator. They just stack extenders. Armor on the other hand you have to equip everything. Your drop suits base armor stats are usually pretty pathetic. IF you tried to get by on your base recovery you'd be there a very long time, even in a scout. Exactly right. If you're a shield user you have a lot more options available to you then an armor user, and generally speaking, all armor users suck. Too many weapons do extra damage to armor that take little to no skill to use. While weapons effective against shield generally take some coordination and thought, like the ScR, but once mastered - lethal.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 16:36:00 - [60] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Let's pick another game. One with lots of options: https://youtu.be/NXmy8kUE5qc?t=20 Now imagine if this game had one type of gizmo that worked better than all other types of gizmos. In every tryhard siege wagon created, that gizmo could be found. Not just once, but stacked. What do you think this game's developers would do? o.0 See, i can't view this post as anything but an opinion, because, it quite literally is. A biased one at that. You just compared Dust to a completely different game with a completely different design concept. This is an FPS - generally speaking, you want to kill or be killed. Okaaay ... Let's assume that BattleDuty 2016 is a teamwork-oriented, tactical (albeit twitchy) FPS. Let's assume that BattleDuty 2016 has 3 Perk Slots. In two of those three slots, let's assume that 80% or better of BattleDuty 2016 players use the exact same two perks. Do you suspect that heavily skewed usage might prompt the BattleDuty Devs to take a look at those two perks? Seriously, heavily skewed low-slot utilization is very simple problem to understand. Too many people are running the same stuff. Something is wrong. This can't be excused away or (laughing) blamed on Scouts. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)

Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 630	Posted - 2015.08.01 16:37:00 - [61] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: All you're trying to do is force people to use crap that doesn't provide any measurably useful benefit except in EXTREME edge cases. If you think other low slot modules are crap, how do you propose we fix them? Until the Scan/damp system isn't "always win/Never win" you can't make them useful. Because no matter what you do, you will never make a heavier suit stealthy enough to get passed by a scout's passive scans. You will always be on the enemy tacnet unless they have no scouts in play. And even if they don't, if you get caught, you don't have the scout mobility to fall back on. You're dead, because your EHP is 1/3rd everyone else's. If the so-called EWAR system was dynamic and had a functional use for anything but scouts and gallente logis, this might be a different story. No love for Cal Logi's? :(
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.08.01 16:38:00 - [62] - Quote I proposed two new extenders with cat merc and Ripley Riley. Would you like a link to the proposal? WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 630	Posted - 2015.08.01 16:40:00 - [63] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I proposed two new extenders with cat merc and Ripley Riley. Would you like a link to the proposal? i've read it, Cat came and asked me my opinion on the subject then linked me the results of all of your debating in some Skype channel, apparently, lol. sounds like a fun channel if it's just number crunching, feel free to throw me an invite.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 16:44:00 - [64] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: I proposed two new extenders with cat merc and Ripley Riley. Would you like a link to the proposal? Absolutely. And whatever else we can come up with. Tweaking all else is more risky, but there's no reason not to flesh out the possibilities. Spitballing ... * Slightly buff shield extenders and/or reduce fitting req'ts * Merge shield rechargers, energizers and regulators * Add secondary bonus to Profile Dampeners (perhaps to scan duration when pinged) * Tweak Falloff inner rings so we can restore Range Extenders to 45% * Add secondary bonus to Card Regs (ideas?) * ... Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.08.01 16:44:00 - [65] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: I proposed two new extenders with cat merc and Ripley Riley. Would you like a link to the proposal? i've read it, Cat came and asked me my opinion on the subject then linked me the results of all of your debating in some Skype channel, apparently, lol. sounds like a fun channel if it's just number crunching, feel free to throw me an invite. I'll ask the others if we have room for another. Number crunching only happens when a wild hair gets stuck up one of our asses. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.08.01 16:45:00 - [66] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: I proposed two new extenders with cat merc and Ripley Riley. Would you like a link to the proposal? Absolutely. And whatever else we can come up with. Tweaking all else is more risky, but there's no reason not to flesh out the possibilities. Spitballing ... * Slightly buff shield extenders and/or reduce fitting req'ts * Merge shield rechargers, energizers and regulators * Add secondary bonus to Profile Dampeners (perhaps to scan duration when pinged) * Tweak Falloff inner rings so we can restore Range Extenders to 45% * Add secondary bonus to Card Regs (ideas?) * ... Insert Rickroll here. And cardiac regs have two bonuses. One to amount of stamina available. One to stamina recovery speed. The militia doubles both your base stamina and your recovery rate. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.08.01 16:53:00 - [67] - Quote That's the kind of crap I will randomly spitball out adipem. To clarify, I have little use for naked assertions that something is OP or UP. For example: armor got buffed in two stages before rattati took over. If I recall correctly, rather than simply buffing armor to come up to shields, both times shields were nerfed. Rather than nerfing ze plates, perhaps reverting some nerfs bit by bit would help. Another idea I have for fixing shields would be to normalize all caldari suits to 30 hp/s at the calsent 3/1 recharge delay/depleted delay. Then normalizing min suits at 25/sec with the current calassault 3/5 delays to bring their shields to higher utility. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 16:55:00 - [68] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Insert Rickroll here. Reading ... What effect, if any, do you anticipate this proposal would have on low-slot utilization rates and loadout variety? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 630	Posted - 2015.08.01 16:56:00 - [69] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: That's the kind of crap I will randomly spitball out adipem. To clarify, I have little use for naked assertions that something is OP or UP. For example: armor got buffed in two stages before rattati took over. If I recall correctly, rather than simply buffing armor to come up to shields, both times shields were nerfed. Rather than nerfing ze plates, perhaps reverting some nerfs bit by bit would help. Another idea I have for fixing shields would be to normalize all caldari suits to 30 hp/s at the calsent 3/1 recharge delay/depleted delay. Then normalizing min suits at 25/sec with the current calassault 3/5 delays to bring their shields to higher utility. It's makes more sense to empower the base stats of the suits shields instead of messing with any mod numbers - modifiers come into a bigger play for it, and the numbers start to add up more clearly. But i'm iffy bout the recharge delay
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 631	Posted - 2015.08.01 16:59:00 - [70] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Insert Rickroll here. Reading ... What effect, if any, do you anticipate this proposal would have on low-slot utilization rates and loadout variety? You'd see an increase of EWAR users, but likely you'd only see people dual tanking. The specifics of this game will always favor survivability over everything. Each FOTM suit has been that because people can get 20-30 KDR's a match, which means killing and living. The only way to really change this is to either remove heavies from the game and level out the EWAR factor between the 3 remaining classes, or add in another layer of EWAR somehow.

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.08.01 17:01:00 - [71] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Insert Rickroll here. Reading ... What effect, if any, do you anticipate this proposal would have on low-slot utilization rates and loadout variety? Calsent will be roughly equal to am/galsent. Amarr assaults would have the option of current meta shield extenders at lower cost (I shifted the current cost to the reinforced extenders), use heavy extenders for the unenviable times of brawling with gallente in close, or use flux extenders to minimize low slot usage of regulators and rechargers so that damps and such might be used without gimping the fit. Calmandos would wind up sucking less overall by having options. Scouts? You're more likely to be able to predict that. I haven't found a calscout fit to fall in love with yet. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 17:04:00 - [72] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Insert Rickroll here. Reading ... What effect, if any, do you anticipate this proposal would have on low-slot utilization rates and loadout variety? You'd see an increase of EWAR users, but likely you'd only see people dual tanking. The specifics of this game will always favor survivability over everything. Each FOTM suit has been that because people can get 20-30 KDR's a match, which means killing and living. The only way to really change this is to either remove heavies from the game and level out the EWAR factor between the 3 remaining classes, or add in another layer of EWAR somehow. How would a new shield module encourage use of EWAR modules? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.08.01 17:04:00 - [73] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: But i'm iffy bout the recharge delay The only reason I consider the calsent viable is the recharge delays. If it was closer to the assault base recharge then I would be right there with the rest of the universe saying the calsent is trash. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.08.01 17:06:00 - [74] - Quote The other d*ck recommendation I want to make is have reactive/standard plates double all shield penalties and having extenders (and the reinforced extenders) double all armor penalties. Dual tanking needs to die in a fire. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 631	Posted - 2015.08.01 17:06:00 - [75] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Insert Rickroll here. Reading ... What effect, if any, do you anticipate this proposal would have on low-slot utilization rates and loadout variety? Calsent will be roughly equal to am/galsent. Amarr assaults would have the option of current meta shield extenders at lower cost (I shifted the current cost to the reinforced extenders), use heavy extenders for the unenviable times of brawling with gallente in close, or use flux extenders to minimize low slot usage of regulators and rechargers so that damps and such might be used without gimping the fit. Calmandos would wind up sucking less overall by having options. Scouts? You're more likely to be able to predict that. I haven't found a calscout fit to fall in love with yet. lol even with this change I don't see the Cal Heavy keeping up - the mods don't really solve there design issue with how lows/highs work - low slots are just generally better for us. It'll still be what it is now - a pub suit. it may change a few Min Heavies to Cal, but you've made the two suits more competitive with it's practical use then you made it competitive with Amarr or Gal. Min Heavy was a better pick because, even though lower EHP, the strafe made up for it. Now with the nerf and this proposal the Min Heavies would have a reason to switch over - but it doesn't convince me to give up my Amarr, allowing me to stack a better rep per second then cal can with shield with no rep delay, and faster movement speed for better flanking, and natural resistance to RR and other HMG's on my armor that starts with a higher number then any other heavy counter-part. Amarr really is just OP after the layout switch with Gal :(
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.08.01 17:11:00 - [76] - Quote It wasn't meant to entice you to switch over. Calsents require a completely different playstyle from the amsent. It also requires all armor and shield skills maxed for viability. With the amsent you only need armor. Shield skills are a bonus. But rather like playing a minsent requires a different mindset, playing a calsent requires a mindset that doesn't work with any other suit. I'm actually better (and better at killing amarr/gallente sentinels) in the calsent. The minsent is basically a minigun wielding assault. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 17:13:00 - [77] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Insert Rickroll here. Reading ... What effect, if any, do you anticipate this proposal would have on low-slot utilization rates and loadout variety? Calsent will be roughly equal to am/galsent. Amarr assaults would have the option of current meta shield extenders at lower cost (I shifted the current cost to the reinforced extenders), use heavy extenders for the unenviable times of brawling with gallente in close, or use flux extenders to minimize low slot usage of regulators and rechargers so that damps and such might be used without gimping the fit. Calmandos would wind up sucking less overall by having options. Scouts? You're more likely to be able to predict that. I haven't found a calscout fit to fall in love with yet. Concerns ... 1. As far as low slots go, HP is plainly King. Your proposal won't affect that. The status quo will be maintained if not exacerbated on account of dual tanking. HP Creep. 2. We presently observe variety in High Slot sales. It seems more probable than not that introducing "really good shield extenders" would hurt more than help with high slot variety. 3. Throwing more HP at the problem will likely widen the viability gap between low HP units and high HP units. As far as we know, Scouts are already underperforming; and, as far as we know, it remains a design goal for low HP unit to operate viably alongside their higher HP counterparts. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 631	Posted - 2015.08.01 17:13:00 - [78] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: The other d*ck recommendation I want to make is have reactive/standard plates double all shield penalties and having extenders (and the reinforced extenders) double all armor penalties. Dual tanking needs to die in a fire. lol, dual tanking comes with draw-backs, and trying to dual tank without plates is just silly - which makes dual tanking silly because it requires those plates. You'll have the EHP - but not the ability to deal with any situation that isn't throwing itself in your face. It's really a stupid build. Even if you didn't use plates - you have no advantge a heavy doesn't already have, so if you're not in a heavy suit dual tanking you probably won't have the DPS to deal with many situations. You'll be stuck with a RR keeping distance, you'll win that 1v1, but the next fight GG. No slayer worth his ISK plays like that. Stack Reps and shield regulators - avoid damage, keep the positioning, and lure your enemies. Enjoy the tears afterwords. :3
Boot Booter Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.08.01 17:16:00 - [79] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: Boot Booter wrote: when really there's only a few truly viable ways to fit suits. Care to put this to the test? I'll let you pick my suit, weapon, whatever you like. feel free to beat me in a 1v1. Use a tank if you want, idc. but i get to choose how i set the mods. Tomorrow around 0400 sound fine? And don't put me in a min scout - it's not fair to you how BS that suit is in 1v1's, lol. Nah dude I have a life, I don't play on the weekends. Besides, wtf would a little nerd battle proove?
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 631	Posted - 2015.08.01 17:17:00 - [80] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: Boot Booter wrote: when really there's only a few truly viable ways to fit suits. Care to put this to the test? I'll let you pick my suit, weapon, whatever you like. feel free to beat me in a 1v1. Use a tank if you want, idc. but i get to choose how i set the mods. Tomorrow around 0400 sound fine? And don't put me in a min scout - it's not fair to you how BS that suit is in 1v1's, lol. Nah dude I have a life, I don't play on the weekends. Besides, wtf would a little nerd battle proove? That there's more then just a few viable fits to win a fight with. It's just more suits can be consistent after one fight after another - while other suits are all about winning that one fight. IT's the approach and your inability to accept the versaility in front of you. so i thought i'd smash you a few times by letting you pick my suit and weapon to prove the point.

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.08.01 17:28:00 - [81] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Insert Rickroll here. Reading ... What effect, if any, do you anticipate this proposal would have on low-slot utilization rates and loadout variety? Calsent will be roughly equal to am/galsent. Amarr assaults would have the option of current meta shield extenders at lower cost (I shifted the current cost to the reinforced extenders), use heavy extenders for the unenviable times of brawling with gallente in close, or use flux extenders to minimize low slot usage of regulators and rechargers so that damps and such might be used without gimping the fit. Calmandos would wind up sucking less overall by having options. Scouts? You're more likely to be able to predict that. I haven't found a calscout fit to fall in love with yet. Concerns 1. As far as low slots go, HP is plainly King. Your proposal won't affect that. The status quo will be maintained if not exacerbated on account of dual tanking. HP Creep. 2. We presently observe variety High Slot sales. It seems more probable than not that introducing "really good shield extenders" would hurt more than help with high slot variety. 3. Throwing more HP at the problem will likely widen the viability gap between low HP units and high HP units. As far as we know, Scouts are already underperforming. 1: in my experience, except on sentinels doing AV, damage mods are always the optimal choice on armor builds. People use alternate mods from shield extenders primarily because they really aren't great. You might get two extra bullet impacts per extender. Not much in DUST. 2: See my answer to 1. 3: the flux extenders were balanced to be the answer/equivalent to reactive plates. We treated standard extenders as ferroscale equivalent and the reinforced like plates. Using Flux would provide the lowest boost to raw HP, instead being intended to boost shield regeneration builds. The Reinforced extenders make you pay dearly for that extra HP by lengthening the recharge delays and slowing your actual recovery rate. In order for say a calsent running three reinforced extenders to hit it's base regen it has to run a regulator and a energizer. And "more HP" is awesome. Until my calsent running three lex mods and a regulator on an AHMG get ahold of you.it can flush out more DPS and kill a suit that's brick tanked faster than anything but a turbo controller scrambler rifle can get through it's shields. I routinely murder proto amsent and galsents in the cal and min sentinels. The only time the shield mods are better as we have them now is for AV. The 5% mods do jack all for busting holes in tanks. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 17:28:00 - [82] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: People unwilling to use what's in front of them and want change on what they do use is half the problem i have with threads like these. Right, it's everyone else's fault that 9/10 low-slots sold are Armor Related. It has nothing to do with Armor. It's all about player mentality. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Boot Booter Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.08.01 17:29:00 - [83] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: Boot Booter wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: Boot Booter wrote: when really there's only a few truly viable ways to fit suits. Care to put this to the test? I'll let you pick my suit, weapon, whatever you like. feel free to beat me in a 1v1. Use a tank if you want, idc. but i get to choose how i set the mods. Tomorrow around 0400 sound fine? And don't put me in a min scout - it's not fair to you how BS that suit is in 1v1's, lol. Nah dude I have a life, I don't play on the weekends. Besides, wtf would a little nerd battle proove? That there's more then just a few viable fits to win a fight with. It's just some suit set ups can be consistent after one fight after another - while other suits are all about winning that one fight. IT's the approach and your inability to accept the versaility in front of you. so i thought i'd smash you a few times by letting you pick my suit and weapon to prove the point. This being a team game enables a ton of options for players to do - it just requires team work to enable. But even playing solo there's tons of ways to play a single role and be competitive - and that competitiveness can be enabled by your team mates further versatile and options available to you through communication. People unwilling to use what's in front of them and want change on what they do use is half the problem i have with threads like these. First of all, I am better than you at dust. Let's get that straight. Now moving on. There's not versatility, you're clearly delusional. There is simply a few wiggle mods for fitting but regardless nobody makes fits without 50% or more mods related to hp. I seriously don't know how many times I have to say that for it to sink in. I'm not saying brick tanks are good, I'm not saying all other mods are useless. I am saying that when half or more of your suit is related to stacking hp then there's a problem with dust considering we have other attributes to mess with (regen, speed, stamina, ewar, etc). The fix is simple. Increase ttk and make hp mods less attractive. Make them harder to fit and increase their penalties.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.08.01 17:30:00 - [84] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: People unwilling to use what's in front of them and want change on what they do use is half the problem i have with threads like these. Right, it's everyone else's fault that 9/10 low-slots sold are Armor Related. It has nothing to do with Armor. It's all about player mentality. I only use armor on my gallente and amarr fits. Not worth it on cal/min fits. And yes, I run everything except galscout and the logis. Because the galscout is a skinny bobblehead and I rarely have fun playing logi. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 631	Posted - 2015.08.01 17:33:00 - [85] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: People unwilling to use what's in front of them and want change on what they do use is half the problem i have with threads like these. Right, it's everyone else's fault that 9/10 low-slots sold are Armor Related. It has nothing to do with Armor. It's all about player mentality. It actually is. My Logi only uses one armor mod, my scout 1, and my pub star Amarr Assault uses one plate and 2 reps and a speed mod. It really, sincerely, is your own faults that you people play the way you do. You can be a Gal Logi and play EWAR - you'll always be on top of the leaderboards on WP. Or you can be an Amarr Logi and be placing links left n right with speed mods and damps. If you choose to believe in the fodder way of building your suit - that's quite literarily, yours and the communities personal issues. And explains why PC corps SMASH you guys consistently. Because they play the way I do., with my understanding of game mechanics and practical use. Most arguments on this subject feels more like an issue with peoples aim then problems with mods. But there is a legitment problem with shields vs armor, at a vehicle level. The weapon meta actually should be rpaing armor users - majority of weapons do increased damage to armors and reduced damage to shields. ... -.-
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 631	Posted - 2015.08.01 17:35:00 - [86] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: Boot Booter wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: Boot Booter wrote: when really there's only a few truly viable ways to fit suits. Care to put this to the test? I'll let you pick my suit, weapon, whatever you like. feel free to beat me in a 1v1. Use a tank if you want, idc. but i get to choose how i set the mods. Tomorrow around 0400 sound fine? And don't put me in a min scout - it's not fair to you how BS that suit is in 1v1's, lol. Nah dude I have a life, I don't play on the weekends. Besides, wtf would a little nerd battle proove? That there's more then just a few viable fits to win a fight with. It's just some suit set ups can be consistent after one fight after another - while other suits are all about winning that one fight. IT's the approach and your inability to accept the versaility in front of you. so i thought i'd smash you a few times by letting you pick my suit and weapon to prove the point. This being a team game enables a ton of options for players to do - it just requires team work to enable. But even playing solo there's tons of ways to play a single role and be competitive - and that competitiveness can be enabled by your team mates further versatile and options available to you through communication. People unwilling to use what's in front of them and want change on what they do use is half the problem i have with threads like these. First of all, I am better than you at dust. Let's get that straight. Now moving on. There's not versatility, you're clearly delusional. There is simply a few wiggle mods for fitting but regardless nobody makes fits without 50% or more mods related to hp. I seriously don't know how many times I have to say that for it to sink in. I'm not saying brick tanks are good, I'm not saying all other mods are useless. I am saying that when half or more of your suit is related to stacking hp then there's a problem with dust considering we have other attributes to mess with (regen, speed, stamina, ewar, etc). The fix is simple. Increase ttk and make hp mods less attractive. Make them harder to fit and increase their penalties. lol, i don't want to tell you I'm better, I want to show you I'm better. My main is named SoTa PoP, let's play! If you get to choose what I use - then your entire argument is invalid if you lose. And being a 'better' player makes this even more so. So stop being a care bear and back up your ****.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.08.01 17:39:00 - [87] - Quote Look ma! Epeen! Hey boot. You saying you're better means jack all. Especially when the topic is balance concerns. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 632	Posted - 2015.08.01 17:43:00 - [88] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Look ma! Epeen! Hey boot. You saying you're better means jack all. Especially when the topic is balance concerns. Reminds me of the old forums when imps were around - the discussions of the AR sights were some of the biggest epeen measuring contests of whose right and wrong based on skill, lol. But some arguments can be settled with a show down - especially concerning balance. If you believe my suit unviable, then you should be able to beat me 1v1, especially considering how much he values his own skills to call himself better. I prefer this route, tbh.
Boot Booter Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.08.01 17:43:00 - [89] - Quote @ sota pop Whatever dude. If you truly think a pissing contest between two people proves anything you're an idiot. Like I said in my original posts, obviously skilled players get more versatility because they can afford to have less hp.
Boot Booter Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.08.01 17:44:00 - [90] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Look ma! Epeen! Hey boot. You saying you're better means jack all. Especially when the topic is balance concerns. Obviously trolling...

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 17:44:00 - [91] - Quote I'm honestly blown away that you two are attempting to blame heavily skewed data on player sentiment and skill. How do you propose Rattati balance anything if usage rates are meaningless? Couldn't the same arguments be made to excuse every form of imbalance? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 632	Posted - 2015.08.01 17:44:00 - [92] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: @ sota pop Whatever dude. If you truly think a pissing contest between two people proves anything you're an idiot. Like I said in my original posts, obviously skilled players get more versatility because they can afford to have less hp. The idiot is the person saying something is true then is unwilling to actually put it to test to prove it. Put up or shut up, simple as that.
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 632	Posted - 2015.08.01 17:46:00 - [93] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: I'm honestly blown away that you two are attempting to blame heavily skewed data on player sentiment and skill. How do you propose Rattati balance anything if usage rates are meaningless? Couldn't the same arguments be made to excuse every form of imbalance? It's not a proper form to make an educate guess or opinion, there's more, important variables at play to make better assumptions with if you're going with assumptions to begin with, like you are. Send CCP a mail and ask which suit is being KILLED the most, and which suit is doing the killing. Suits being bought shows no concrete evidence to anything other then popularity. I'd be more interested in what suits PC players buy, not the community, as they're the players who care about winning.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 17:47:00 - [94] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: Boot Booter wrote: @ sota pop Whatever dude. If you truly think a pissing contest between two people proves anything you're an idiot. Like I said in my original posts, obviously skilled players get more versatility because they can afford to have less hp. The idiot is the person saying something is true then is unwilling to actually put it to test to prove it. Put up or shut up, simple as that. In my book, the idiot is the guy who points to a year of heavily skewed usage data and says "it's the way it is because of sentiment". Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 17:48:00 - [95] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: I'm honestly blown away that you two are attempting to blame heavily skewed data on player sentiment and skill. How do you propose Rattati balance anything if usage rates are meaningless? Couldn't the same arguments be made to excuse every form of imbalance? It's not a proper form to make an educate guess or opinion, there's more, important variables at play to make better assumptions with if you're going with assumptions to begin with, like you are. Send CCP a mail and ask which suit is being KILLED the most, and which suit is doing the killing. Suits being bought shows no concrete evidence to anything other then popularity. I'd be more interested in what suits PC players buy, not the community, as they're the players who care about winning. I'm not making assumptions, Sota. The usage data is right here: http://dust.thang.dk/ Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 636	Posted - 2015.08.01 17:50:00 - [96] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: Boot Booter wrote: @ sota pop Whatever dude. If you truly think a pissing contest between two people proves anything you're an idiot. Like I said in my original posts, obviously skilled players get more versatility because they can afford to have less hp. The idiot is the person saying something is true then is unwilling to actually put it to test to prove it. Put up or shut up, simple as that. In my book, the idiot is the guy who points to a year of heavily skewed usage data and says "it's the way it is because of sentiment". Isn't... that what you're doing? Using irrelevant data to prove a point is almost exactly trying to express a sentiment rather then argument. I would just stop replying if you're going to continue using weak evidence to back claims. Market sells should never be the basis of your argument in concerns with balance discussions.
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 636	Posted - 2015.08.01 17:51:00 - [97] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: I'm honestly blown away that you two are attempting to blame heavily skewed data on player sentiment and skill. How do you propose Rattati balance anything if usage rates are meaningless? Couldn't the same arguments be made to excuse every form of imbalance? It's not a proper form to make an educate guess or opinion, there's more, important variables at play to make better assumptions with if you're going with assumptions to begin with, like you are. Send CCP a mail and ask which suit is being KILLED the most, and which suit is doing the killing. Suits being bought shows no concrete evidence to anything other then popularity. I'd be more interested in what suits PC players buy, not the community, as they're the players who care about winning. I'm not making assumptions, Sota. The usage data is right here: http://dust.thang.dk/market_tryhardinator.php It's an assumption to assume because of market data that one thing is one way or another. You lack too much information or variables to make any claims, or assumptions.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.08.01 17:56:00 - [98] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: I'm honestly blown away that you two are attempting to blame heavily skewed data on player sentiment and skill. How do you propose Rattati balance anything if usage rates are meaningless? Couldn't the same arguments be made to excuse every form of imbalance? Usually is. And no, skill does not justify imbalance. Nor have I ever used that argument. Or are you talking about boot? And bluntly usage rates are obvious because armor is the better meta for reasons I've hashed out, you have hashed out, everyone but the people who like to think of cal suits as free KD padding have hashed out. I am simply of the opinion that bringing the shields up to armor level is the answer. Bluntly until EWAR gets a total overhaul (the mechanics are trash) there's no value in low slot ewar mods. Stacking lots of reps really has little advantage and kincats are the primary non plate low slot for a reason (I actually prefer cardiacs). Heavy plates are the mainstay of fatties. That's kind of a necessity. Reactive and ferros are favored by everyone but me on assaults. Scouts... I only play scouts for the lulz. Regulators are as useful as a football bat on armor suits and of marginal utility at best on min suits. Nothing you do to plates will make any of the alternatives attractive. All that happens is people swap to glass cannon speed fits because sprint sped mitigates damage via escape. Without a better variety of mods in both the highs and lows you will never see assault,commando and sentinel players give up the HP. Damps are nominally useful on calassaults only because sometimes you don't want to stack triple regulators, but usually kincats are the better choice. All because range mods for ewar are trash, so making a detection fit suit is pointless. And damps can only get under an STD scanner. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:00:00 - [99] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: You lack too much information or variables to make any claims, or assumptions. We all have access to the same information. If you're saying the information we all have access to is insufficient to make claims, then none of us can make claims. If no one can make a claim, we are all -- every single one of us -- wasting our time. I reject your claim. It's an idiotic claim. We can all make observations in game. We can all compare those observations with market data. We can all compare our observations with the observations of other users. We can make whatever claims and inferences we wish. Some will be more accurate than others. That is the nature of user feedback, and user feedback has value. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Boot Booter Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:03:00 - [100] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: Boot Booter wrote: @ sota pop Whatever dude. If you truly think a pissing contest between two people proves anything you're an idiot. Like I said in my original posts, obviously skilled players get more versatility because they can afford to have less hp. The idiot is the person saying something is true then is unwilling to actually put it to test to prove it. Put up or shut up, simple as that. Im unwilling to put it to the test because I am about to go to breakfast with my girlfriend and then go rafting down a river. Also, if you knew anything about science you'd realise that regardless of the outcome of our 1v1 it is not a proper test of anything. The sample size is a bit small don't you think?

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:04:00 - [101] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: You lack too much information or variables to make any claims, or assumptions. We all have access to the same information. If you're saying the information we all have access to is insufficient to make claims, then none of us can make claims. If no one can make a claim, we are all -- every single one of us -- wasting our time. I reject your claim. It's an idiotic claim. We can all make observations in game. We can all compare those observations with market data. We can make whatever claims and inferences we wish. Some more accurate than others. That is the nature of user feedback. Allow me to say it better. Market data bereft of kill/spawn and average fitting data is the equivalent of trying to determine which company to invest in by watching what people buy at the grocery store. By itself there isn't enough data to make a determination, merely determine that there is some kind of trend. It does not address WHY there is a trend. Nor does it provide any of the variables needed to determine a break point. It is information in a vacuum, bereft of real content or context with which to see the wheole picture. No balance decisions are made solely upon market data ever. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Boot Booter Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:07:00 - [102] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: You lack too much information or variables to make any claims, or assumptions. We all have access to the same information. If you're saying the information we all have access to is insufficient to make claims, then none of us can make claims. If no one can make a claim, we are all -- every single one of us -- wasting our time. I reject your claim. It's an idiotic claim. We can all make observations in game. We can all compare those observations with market data. We can make whatever claims and inferences we wish. Some more accurate than others. That is the nature of user feedback. Allow me to say it better. Market data bereft of kill/spawn and average fitting data is the equivalent of trying to determine which company to invest in by watching what people buy at the grocery store. By itself there isn't enough data to make a determination, merely determine that there is some kind of trend. It does not address WHY there is a trend. Nor does it provide any of the variables needed to determine a break point. It is information in a vacuum, bereft of real content or context with which to see the wheole picture. No balance decisions are made solely upon market data ever. Usage rates is literally how ratatti balanced weapons after he did the dps vs range method. Sooooooooooooo
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:07:00 - [103] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: No balance decisions are made solely upon market data ever. And rightly so. But for flux sake, that is not an excuse to ignore market data. (I know you realize this, Breakin ... this is aimed at Sota.) Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 637	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:08:00 - [104] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: You lack too much information or variables to make any claims, or assumptions. We all have access to the same information. If you're saying the information we all have access to is insufficient to make claims, then none of us can make claims. If no one can make a claim, we are all -- every single one of us -- wasting our time. I reject your claim. It's an idiotic claim. We can all make observations in game. We can all compare those observations with market data. We can make whatever claims and inferences we wish. Some more accurate than others. That is the nature of user feedback, and user feedback has value. this is pretty much exactly correct - and why discussions like these go back and forth and back and forth - CCP isn't relaying all relevant data to us in a way we can clearly understand. So trying to tell them how balance should work when we don't have all the proper variables is the other half of the problem i have with threads like these. All we can do is suggest, and then give opinion on how we feel things should go - then they take the opinion and work around it to create balance. ofc, all the spread sheet data is available to you, so instead of using other peoples actions to base your opinion on - you could use that. Just a thought, though. :P
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:09:00 - [105] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: ofc, all the spread sheet data is available to you, so instead of using other peoples actions to base your opinion on - you could use that. Just a thought, though. :P What are you even talking about now? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:10:00 - [106] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: Usage rates is literally how ratatti balanced weapons after he did the dps vs range method. Sooooooooooooo Nice work latching onto one of his comments in a statement and igniring every other part of it. Bravo. Since you're latching onto that particular point of stupid, I see no reason to take you seriously any further. Have fun. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 637	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:10:00 - [107] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: ofc, all the spread sheet data is available to you, so instead of using other peoples actions to base your opinion on - you could use that. Just a thought, though. :P What are you even talking about now? you're talking of balance using market data instead of... you know, actual stats? o.0
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:10:00 - [108] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: No balance decisions are made solely upon market data ever. And rightly so. But for flux sake, that is not an excuse to ignore market data. Usage data speaks volumes. (I know you realize this, Breakin ... this is aimed at Sota.) Trying to illustrate a better way of making the point more than trying to lecture you actually. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:12:00 - [109] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: No balance decisions are made solely upon market data ever. And rightly so. But for flux sake, that is not an excuse to ignore market data. Usage data speaks volumes. (I know you realize this, Breakin ... this is aimed at Sota.) Trying to illustrate a better way of making the point more than trying to lecture you actually. I followed. Didn't feel lectured at all :-) PS: Owe you an apology. Had initially grouped you with SoTa. Clearly, you are not in the "everything is fine" camp. Good to know. PPS: The CPM2 comment earlier was directed at Sgt Kirk and Aeon Amadi. You and I likely disagree on rifle balanced design, but I don't recall you making excuses for the AR during AR-514, and my earlier comment was not aimed at you. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 637	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:17:00 - [110] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: No balance decisions are made solely upon market data ever. And rightly so. But for flux sake, that is not an excuse to ignore market data. Usage data speaks volumes. (I know you realize this, Breakin ... this is aimed at Sota.) Trying to illustrate a better way of making the point more than trying to lecture you actually. I followed. Didn't feel lectured at all :-) PS: Owe you an apology. Had initially grouped you with SoTa. Clearly, you are not in the "everything is fine" camp. Also, the CPM2 comment was directed at Sgt Kirk and Aeon Amadi (not you). You clearly suck at reading and have turned to kiss ass to negate some of the stupid you've said. I have mentioned over and over the problem, and why your reasonings doesn't help anyone come to a solution. I'm not running for CPM like Breakin; is - so i don't have to hold back when i call you out on stupid comments :3

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:23:00 - [111] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: No balance decisions are made solely upon market data ever. And rightly so. But for flux sake, that is not an excuse to ignore market data. Usage data speaks volumes. (I know you realize this, Breakin ... this is aimed at Sota.) Trying to illustrate a better way of making the point more than trying to lecture you actually. I followed. Didn't feel lectured at all :-) PS: Owe you an apology. Had initially grouped you with SoTa. Clearly, you are not in the "everything is fine" camp. Also, the CPM2 comment was directed at Sgt Kirk and Aeon Amadi (not you). You clearly suck at reading and have turned to kiss ass to negate some of the stupid you've said. I have mentioned over and over the problem, and why your reasonings doesn't help anyone come to a solution. I'm not running for CPM like Breakin; is - so i don't have to hold back when i call you out on stupid comments :3 I'm not kissing Breakin's ass, and I'm pretty sure he knows it. He and I are more-or-less constantly at odds. I respect his opinions and I appreciate the fact that he can form a logical thought and argue it. It makes getting to the heart of things easier. You should try it sometime. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:26:00 - [112] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: . I'm not running for CPM like Breakin; is - so i don't have to hold back when i call you out on stupid comments :3 Please. I'm not going to lie to everyone and try to convince people I'm running an "I'll be nicer" campaign. I doubt too many people are stupid enough to believe that. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 637	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:29:00 - [113] - Quote Again, stop trying the kiss ass approach. backhanded compliments to someone telling you you're wrong while going after the person saying the exact same thing as him in a harsher way - doesn't look like ass kissing to you? If you can't debate your point that's fine, but no need to make a spectacle of yourself. I hate you all equally, and treat you all the way i expect to be treated, so don't worry. Come at me with everything you've got.
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 637	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:30:00 - [114] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: . I'm not running for CPM like Breakin; is - so i don't have to hold back when i call you out on stupid comments :3 Please. I'm not going to lie to everyone and try to convince people I'm running an "I'll be nicer" campaign. I doubt too many people are stupid enough to believe that. Guess i just am a harsher poster? Somehow, i remember you being a bit rougher in dealing with people who constantly post the same opinion hoping it changes.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:40:00 - [115] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: Again, stop trying the kiss ass approach. backhanded compliments to someone telling you you're wrong while going after the person saying the exact same thing as him in a harsher way - doesn't look like ass kissing to you? If you can't debate your point that's fine, but no need to make a spectacle of yourself. I hate you all equally, and treat you all the way i expect to be treated, so don't worry. Come at me with everything you've got. Dude, I'm not admitted that I'm wrong. I stand by my every position. I'm right. You're wrong. I'm acknowledging the fact that Breakin is somewhere in between. I'd initially thought he was dead wrong. Turns out, he is only partly wrong. I can concede that and still be right. Breakin is right in that Armor is out-of-balance. He is wrong about how to fix it. Arguably, at least. As for you, I've no intention or reason to debate with you further. Why would I? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 637	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:45:00 - [116] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: Again, stop trying the kiss ass approach. backhanded compliments to someone telling you you're wrong while going after the person saying the exact same thing as him in a harsher way - doesn't look like ass kissing to you? If you can't debate your point that's fine, but no need to make a spectacle of yourself. I hate you all equally, and treat you all the way i expect to be treated, so don't worry. Come at me with everything you've got. Dude, I'm not admitted that I'm wrong. I stand by my every position. I'm right. You're wrong. I'm acknowledging the fact that Breakin is somewhere between. I'd initially thought he was dead wrong. Turns out, he is only partly wrong. I think i hurt myself smacking my head too hard reading this. Went from backhanded compliments to backhanded insult, lol. No wonder he gave up on you, but at least you respect his opinion enough to give him... half credit? idk, your logic not only seems flawed, but so biased that the only light shining down on it is the small hole you left open from trying to **** your opinion into this discussion. A very, very, small hole. ;p P.S.: Your opinion is garbage because it's based on deluded data, fyi. no trolling required to tell you you're stupid, you're telling yourself then advertising it to everyone else with a smile. +1 for the smile :3
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:48:00 - [117] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: Again, stop trying the kiss ass approach. backhanded compliments to someone telling you you're wrong while going after the person saying the exact same thing as him in a harsher way - doesn't look like ass kissing to you? If you can't debate your point that's fine, but no need to make a spectacle of yourself. I hate you all equally, and treat you all the way i expect to be treated, so don't worry. Come at me with everything you've got. Dude, I'm not admitted that I'm wrong. I stand by my every position. I'm right. You're wrong. I'm acknowledging the fact that Breakin is somewhere in between. I'd initially thought he was dead wrong. Turns out, he is only partly wrong. I can concede that and still be right. Breakin is right in that Armor is out-of-balance. He is wrong about how to fix it. Arguably, at least. As for you, I've no intention or reason to debate with you further. Why would I? You are only more right than I am in your own opinion. The solution is increasing the viability of alternative options, not nerfing the viable options until the garbage dumpster bits look more attractive. That's my point. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:51:00 - [118] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: no trolling required to tell you you're stupid That's the second or third time you've called me stupid in this thread, Sota. Not sure what you're basis is, but do you really think I'm stupid? If not, why say it? If so, put a number on it. Then tell me your number. I'm truly curious. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:57:00 - [119] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: Again, stop trying the kiss ass approach. backhanded compliments to someone telling you you're wrong while going after the person saying the exact same thing as him in a harsher way - doesn't look like ass kissing to you? If you can't debate your point that's fine, but no need to make a spectacle of yourself. I hate you all equally, and treat you all the way i expect to be treated, so don't worry. Come at me with everything you've got. Dude, I'm not admitted that I'm wrong. I stand by my every position. I'm right. You're wrong. I'm acknowledging the fact that Breakin is somewhere in between. I'd initially thought he was dead wrong. Turns out, he is only partly wrong. I can concede that and still be right. Breakin is right in that Armor is out-of-balance. He is wrong about how to fix it. Arguably, at least. As for you, I've no intention or reason to debate with you further. Why would I? You are only more right than I am in your own opinion. The solution is increasing the viability of alternative options, not nerfing the viable options until the garbage dumpster bits look more attractive. That's my point. It'll be alot of work to buff shields and rework all other low-slot modules. In the interim, nerf plate HP output and/or increase fitting requirements? This way plates will still be better than everything else (while we work on everything else), but less obnoxiously so. No matter how cut it, they're OP. Why let them remain that way while we work out a protracted solution? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:59:00 - [120] - Quote Nerfing it then fixing shields to un nerf it is doing twice the work. You're not doing anyone any favors by asking for blanket nerfs to plates without addressing why shields are buggered up in the first place. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.

Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 637	Posted - 2015.08.01 19:06:00 - [121] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: no trolling required to tell you you're stupid That's the second or third time you've called me stupid in this thread, Sota. Not sure what you're basis is, but do you really think I'm stupid? If not, why say it? If so, put a number on it. Then tell me your number. I'm truly curious. I call anyone who keeps posting the same data over and over and expect it mean something new or different to us to change our opinion as stupid. so yes, i really think you're stupid. I didn't at first, until you linked the market place data a second time to build the foundation of your argument. At that point i stopped taking you seriously.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 19:11:00 - [122] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Nerfing it then fixing shields to un nerf it is doing twice the work. You're not doing anyone any favors by asking for blanket nerfs to plates without addressing why shields are buggered up in the first place. I honestly don't think that shields are that bad off. Extenders already rank highest among other high slot modules; I wouldn't buff them directly. Perhaps indirectly ... * Nerf Scrambler Rifles * Combine Energizers and Regulators At this point, shields will likely still likely be inferior to armor. If not, great. If so ... * Increase fitting req'ts of plates * Slightly decrease HP yield per plate If mercs can't fit a rack of plates in their lows, they'll mix 'em up with other modules. Now, armor and shields are in better balance (without more HP Creep) and we've simultaneously addressed lack of diversity in low slots. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 19:27:00 - [123] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: no trolling required to tell you you're stupid That's the second or third time you've called me stupid in this thread, Sota. Not sure what you're basis is, but do you really think I'm stupid? If not, why say it? If so, put a number on it. Then tell me your number. I'm truly curious. I call anyone who keeps posting the same data over and over and expect it mean something new or different to us to change our opinion as stupid. so yes, i really think you're stupid. I didn't at first, until you linked the market place data a second time to build the foundation of your argument. At that point i stopped taking you seriously. You don't want to put a number on it? Come on, Sota. It isn't hard. Use a scale of 1-10. Tell us where you think I am. Tell us where you think you are. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.08.01 19:28:00 - [124] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Nerfing it then fixing shields to un nerf it is doing twice the work. You're not doing anyone any favors by asking for blanket nerfs to plates without addressing why shields are buggered up in the first place. I honestly don't think that shields are that bad off. There are lots of good high-slot modules; extenders already rank highest among them; I wouldn't buff them directly. Perhaps indirectly ... * Nerf Scrambler Rifles * Combine Energizers and Regulators At this point, shields will likely still likely be inferior to armor. If not, great. If so ... * Increase fitting req'ts of plates * Slightly decrease HP yield per plate If mercs can't fit a rack of plates in their lows, they'll mix 'em up with other modules. Now, armor and shields are in better balance (without more HP Creep) and we've simultaneously addressed lack of diversity in low slots. That idea gimps amsent and galsent. They are dependent upon plates. All amarr and gallente are dependent upon plates. If caldari should be allowed to hot-rack shields, not allowing the same for plates in the lows on armor suits is an inexcusable double standard. Plus the only people who fully max their lows with plates are sentinels with a logi rep leash shoved up their ass. Without the logi it is completely and utterly nonviable WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 19:35:00 - [125] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Nerfing it then fixing shields to un nerf it is doing twice the work. You're not doing anyone any favors by asking for blanket nerfs to plates without addressing why shields are buggered up in the first place. I honestly don't think that shields are that bad off. There are lots of good high-slot modules; extenders already rank highest among them; I wouldn't buff them directly. Perhaps indirectly ... * Nerf Scrambler Rifles * Combine Energizers and Regulators At this point, shields will likely still likely be inferior to armor. If not, great. If so ... * Increase fitting req'ts of plates * Slightly decrease HP yield per plate If mercs can't fit a rack of plates in their lows, they'll mix 'em up with other modules. Now, armor and shields are in better balance (without more HP Creep) and we've simultaneously addressed lack of diversity in low slots. That idea gimps amsent and galsent. They are dependent upon plates. All amarr and gallente are dependent upon plates. If caldari should be allowed to hot-rack shields, not allowing the same for plates in the lows on armor suits is an inexcusable double standard. Plus the only people who fully max their lows with plates are sentinels with a logi rep leash shoved up their ass. Without the logi it is completely and utterly nonviable Are you talking about Heavies only? Assaults, Logis and Scouts can't run straight shield extenders; they're too resource intensive; can't fit anything else. Assuming this were in fact going to gimp AM/GA Sents, why not: * Increase Heavy Base HP * Nerf Scrambler Rifles * Combine Energizers and Regulators * Increase fitting req'ts of plates * Slightly decrease HP yield per plate Thoughts? What else, apart from Heavies, would be gimped on account of an Armor Plate nerf? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 637	Posted - 2015.08.01 19:38:00 - [126] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: no trolling required to tell you you're stupid That's the second or third time you've called me stupid in this thread, Sota. Not sure what you're basis is, but do you really think I'm stupid? If not, why say it? If so, put a number on it. Then tell me your number. I'm truly curious. I call anyone who keeps posting the same data over and over and expect it mean something new or different to us to change our opinion as stupid. so yes, i really think you're stupid. I didn't at first, until you linked the market place data a second time to build the foundation of your argument. At that point i stopped taking you seriously. You don't want to put a number on it? Come on, Sota. It isn't hard. Use a scale of 1-10. Tell us where you think I am. Tell us where you think you are. reading later posts after this - you're not unintelligent, just a bit biased? You don't structure your opinion well enough to give it weight or any meaningful dialogue, especially if you're backing your statements with deluted data. So of course i'm going to look at you funny and question either your sanity or intelligence. But i'll apologize for calling you stupid. sorry, you're clearly not.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.08.01 19:40:00 - [127] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Nerfing it then fixing shields to un nerf it is doing twice the work. You're not doing anyone any favors by asking for blanket nerfs to plates without addressing why shields are buggered up in the first place. I honestly don't think that shields are that bad off. There are lots of good high-slot modules; extenders already rank highest among them; I wouldn't buff them directly. Perhaps indirectly ... * Nerf Scrambler Rifles * Combine Energizers and Regulators At this point, shields will likely still likely be inferior to armor. If not, great. If so ... * Increase fitting req'ts of plates * Slightly decrease HP yield per plate If mercs can't fit a rack of plates in their lows, they'll mix 'em up with other modules. Now, armor and shields are in better balance (without more HP Creep) and we've simultaneously addressed lack of diversity in low slots. That idea gimps amsent and galsent. They are dependent upon plates. All amarr and gallente are dependent upon plates. If caldari should be allowed to hot-rack shields, not allowing the same for plates in the lows on armor suits is an inexcusable double standard. Plus the only people who fully max their lows with plates are sentinels with a logi rep leash shoved up their ass. Without the logi it is completely and utterly nonviable Are you talking about Heavies only? Assaults, Logis and Scouts can't run straight shield extenders; they're too resource intensive; can't fit anything else. Assuming this were in fact going to gimp AM/GA Sents, why not: * Increase Heavy Base HP * Nerf Scrambler Rifles * Combine Energizers and Regulators * Increase fitting req'ts of plates * Slightly decrease HP yield per plate Thoughts? Logi and scout aren't built for stand and deliver. Let's review the three nerfs of shields that accompanied the armor buffs. 1: extenders got a delay nerf. 2: either extenders got a fitting nerf or the cal suits ate a fitting nerf. Can't remember which. 3. Recharge delay and depleted delay got nerfed. Simpler to fix those three things than rebalance plates I would think. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 19:53:00 - [128] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: ... You pointed out that Armor Plate nerfs would gimp Heavies. My point is that if this is only problem with nerfing Plates, then the problem is isolated and could be easily corrected by tweaking Heavy base statistics. Plates wouldn't have to be reduced to crap. They'd just need to be tougher to fit. If plates were tougher to fit, mercs would mix up their low slots. Just like we see with tough-to-fit extenders and diversity in high slots. Right? As for reversing Shield Extender nerfs ... Shield extenders are already very popular (if most the most popular) high slots. If they were to become to Highs what Armor is to Low, wouldn't we run the risk of a more homogenized battlefield? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 20:01:00 - [129] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: But i'll apologize for calling you stupid. Thanks! No harm, no foul. I was more curious than offended. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 637	Posted - 2015.08.01 20:02:00 - [130] - Quote You will run into the same issue over and over because of how Heavies are designed vs how the rest of the classes play. Between Assault, Scouts and Logi's - a balance is fairly easy to strike. Increase mod slots to all suits with more slots available means more mods added - and with penalties stacking you can create all sorts of different fits. You can turn an assault suit like the Gal into what heavies are today, with all the penalties included in the heavies base stats. But with heavies around you need to look at base HP and stats a bit more thoroughly in order for the heavy to not appear OP or UP in face of weapon meta. It's a headache and pain since the difference in base stats is so different that mods heavily effect things one way or another rather then allowing a domino effect occur with mod set ups.

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.08.01 20:17:00 - [131] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: ... You pointed out that Armor Plate nerfs would gimp Heavies. My point is that if this is only problem with nerfing Plates, then the problem is isolated and could be easily corrected. Just tweak Heavy base statistics. If plates were tougher to fit, mercs would mix up their low slots, just like we see with tough-to-fit extenders and diversity in high slots. Seems straightforward. What am I missing? As for reversing Shield Extender nerfs ... Shield extenders are already very popular (if most the most popular) high slots. If they were to become to Highs what Armor is to Lows, wouldn't we end up with a more homogenized battlefield? Adipem I think the point I'm dancing around is that it doesn't matter what you do to lower HP use. The majority of players will always opt for the path of least resistance. Only the more experimental players will generally dicker around with alternate fits. This is evident in the FOTM seesaw. If people would actually look for anything but KDR max rektage we would have seen it. They wouldnt have specced into the calscout/galscout when they were flagrantly OP. They wouldn't have gone HMG amsent during the days of fat and they wouldn't have run like kids into a toys 'r us for the calogi during the slayer days. You will never lower the majority use of HP mods until their use is rendered moot. Better to make the other sh*t equal than to circle the same drain we have for three years. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 637	Posted - 2015.08.01 20:24:00 - [132] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: ... You pointed out that Armor Plate nerfs would gimp Heavies. My point is that if this is only problem with nerfing Plates, then the problem is isolated and could be easily corrected. Just tweak Heavy base statistics. If plates were tougher to fit, mercs would mix up their low slots, just like we see with tough-to-fit extenders and diversity in high slots. Seems straightforward. What am I missing? As for reversing Shield Extender nerfs ... Shield extenders are already very popular (if most the most popular) high slots. If they were to become to Highs what Armor is to Lows, wouldn't we end up with a more homogenized battlefield? Adipem I think the point I'm dancing around is that it doesn't matter what you do to lower HP use. The majority of players will always opt for the path of least resistance. Only the more experimental players will generally dicker around with alternate fits. This is evident in the FOTM seesaw. If people would actually look for anything but KDR max rektage we would have seen it. They wouldnt have specced into the calscout/galscout when they were flagrantly OP. They wouldn't have gone HMG amsent during the days of fat and they wouldn't have run like kids into a toys 'r us for the calogi during the slayer days. You will never lower the majority use of HP mods until their use is rendered moot. Better to make the other sh*t equal than to circle the same drain we have for three years. Sounds like an argument for standardizing shield and armor stats to be the same :(
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 20:33:00 - [133] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: ... You pointed out that Armor Plate nerfs would gimp Heavies. My point is that if this is only problem with nerfing Plates, then the problem is isolated and could be easily corrected. Just tweak Heavy base statistics. If plates were tougher to fit, mercs would mix up their low slots, just like we see with tough-to-fit extenders and diversity in high slots. Seems straightforward. What am I missing? As for reversing Shield Extender nerfs ... Shield extenders are already very popular (if most the most popular) high slots. If they were to become to Highs what Armor is to Lows, wouldn't we end up with a more homogenized battlefield? Adipem I think the point I'm dancing around is that it doesn't matter what you do to lower HP use. The majority of players will always opt for the path of least resistance. Only the more experimental players will generally dicker around with alternate fits. This is evident in the FOTM seesaw. If people would actually look for anything but KDR max rektage we would have seen it. They wouldnt have specced into the calscout/galscout when they were flagrantly OP. They wouldn't have gone HMG amsent during the days of fat and they wouldn't have run like kids into a toys 'r us for the calogi during the slayer days. You will never lower the majority use of HP mods until their use is rendered moot. Better to make the other sht equal than to circle the same drain we have for three years. So ... Despite the fact that we've managed to achieve diversity everywhere else in the game, we will not be able to do so with low slots. The vast majority of low-slot modules sold will always be brick-related, and we just have to deal with that. Can't fix it. Our very best bet at mitigating the lack low-slot diversity is to decrease* high-slot diversity. This doesn't make practical sense to me, Breakin. I say, let Armor Modules remain the very best low slot modules. But make them somewhat less awesome than they are now. And make 'em tougher to fit. This way mercs will be encouraged to mix things up, rather than stack the same "best module" over and over again. This makes more practical sense, right? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 637	Posted - 2015.08.01 20:35:00 - [134] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: ... You pointed out that Armor Plate nerfs would gimp Heavies. My point is that if this is only problem with nerfing Plates, then the problem is isolated and could be easily corrected. Just tweak Heavy base statistics. If plates were tougher to fit, mercs would mix up their low slots, just like we see with tough-to-fit extenders and diversity in high slots. Seems straightforward. What am I missing? As for reversing Shield Extender nerfs ... Shield extenders are already very popular (if most the most popular) high slots. If they were to become to Highs what Armor is to Lows, wouldn't we end up with a more homogenized battlefield? Adipem I think the point I'm dancing around is that it doesn't matter what you do to lower HP use. The majority of players will always opt for the path of least resistance. Only the more experimental players will generally dicker around with alternate fits. This is evident in the FOTM seesaw. If people would actually look for anything but KDR max rektage we would have seen it. They wouldnt have specced into the calscout/galscout when they were flagrantly OP. They wouldn't have gone HMG amsent during the days of fat and they wouldn't have run like kids into a toys 'r us for the calogi during the slayer days. You will never lower the majority use of HP mods until their use is rendered moot. Better to make the other sht equal than to circle the same drain we have for three years. So ... Despite the fact that we've managed to achieve diversity everywhere else in the game, we will not be able to do so with low slots. The vast majority of low-slot modules sold will always be brick-related, and we just have to deal with that. Can't fix it. Our very best bet at mitigating the lack low-slot diversity is to decrease* high-slot diversity. This doesn't make practical sense to me, Breakin. I say, let Armor Modules remain the very best low slot modules. But make them somewhat less awesome than they are now. And make 'em tougher to fit. This way folks won't be inclined to mix things up rather than stack the same "best module" over and over again. This makes more practical sense to me. Let's take a look at high slots - does anyone use any other high slot other then DPS and Shield? It's the same problem as low - just that what's being used isn't as effective. so i wouldn't say versatility was achieved more elsewhere, it's all pretty much the same, even for vehicles.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 20:38:00 - [135] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: ... You pointed out that Armor Plate nerfs would gimp Heavies. My point is that if this is only problem with nerfing Plates, then the problem is isolated and could be easily corrected. Just tweak Heavy base statistics. If plates were tougher to fit, mercs would mix up their low slots, just like we see with tough-to-fit extenders and diversity in high slots. Seems straightforward. What am I missing? As for reversing Shield Extender nerfs ... Shield extenders are already very popular (if most the most popular) high slots. If they were to become to Highs what Armor is to Lows, wouldn't we end up with a more homogenized battlefield? Adipem I think the point I'm dancing around is that it doesn't matter what you do to lower HP use. The majority of players will always opt for the path of least resistance. Only the more experimental players will generally dicker around with alternate fits. This is evident in the FOTM seesaw. If people would actually look for anything but KDR max rektage we would have seen it. They wouldnt have specced into the calscout/galscout when they were flagrantly OP. They wouldn't have gone HMG amsent during the days of fat and they wouldn't have run like kids into a toys 'r us for the calogi during the slayer days. You will never lower the majority use of HP mods until their use is rendered moot. Better to make the other sht equal than to circle the same drain we have for three years. So ... Despite the fact that we've managed to achieve diversity everywhere else in the game, we will not be able to do so with low slots. The vast majority of low-slot modules sold will always be brick-related, and we just have to deal with that. Can't fix it. Our very best bet at mitigating the lack low-slot diversity is to decrease* high-slot diversity. This doesn't make practical sense to me, Breakin. I say, let Armor Modules remain the very best low slot modules. But make them somewhat less awesome than they are now. And make 'em tougher to fit. This way folks won't be inclined to mix things up rather than stack the same "best module" over and over again. This makes more practical sense to me. Let's take a look at high slots - does anyone use any other high slot other then DPS and Shield? It's the same problem as low - just that what's being used isn't as effective. so i wouldn't say versatility was achieved more elsewhere, it's all pretty much the same, even for vehicles. Highs Shield Stuff Damage Amps Myofibs Precision Enhancers Lows Armor Stuff KinCats Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 638	Posted - 2015.08.01 20:43:00 - [136] - Quote Armor stuff means a lot more different mods then shield stuff - a 2 vs 4, really. Never seen anyone use anything other then regulators and extenders. so we should probably take that into consideration, so we have shield stuff (2) Damage Amps, Mybo, and PEs. Vs Armor Stuff 4 items and speed mods. 5 v 5 in viable mod uses. There's also dampeners, which i believe is a low slot, and is widely used on lots of slayer suits in PC, which i know for a fact because i get 5 to 10 of them damn things after each PC, lol. So it's 6 useful low slots vs 5 useful high slots.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 20:53:00 - [137] - Quote We got creative with secondary attributes and solved the under-utilization problem with Myofibs. Could do the same with Armor. Idea! Armor Plates reduce stamina pool. 15% stamina pool reduction for basic plates. 20% for enhanced plates. 30% for complex plates. Decreases incentive to stack plates atop more plates. Increases demand for CardRegs. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.08.01 20:57:00 - [138] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: ... You pointed out that Armor Plate nerfs would gimp Heavies. My point is that if this is only problem with nerfing Plates, then the problem is isolated and could be easily corrected. Just tweak Heavy base statistics. If plates were tougher to fit, mercs would mix up their low slots, just like we see with tough-to-fit extenders and diversity in high slots. Seems straightforward. What am I missing? As for reversing Shield Extender nerfs ... Shield extenders are already very popular (if most the most popular) high slots. If they were to become to Highs what Armor is to Lows, wouldn't we end up with a more homogenized battlefield? Adipem I think the point I'm dancing around is that it doesn't matter what you do to lower HP use. The majority of players will always opt for the path of least resistance. Only the more experimental players will generally dicker around with alternate fits. This is evident in the FOTM seesaw. If people would actually look for anything but KDR max rektage we would have seen it. They wouldnt have specced into the calscout/galscout when they were flagrantly OP. They wouldn't have gone HMG amsent during the days of fat and they wouldn't have run like kids into a toys 'r us for the calogi during the slayer days. You will never lower the majority use of HP mods until their use is rendered moot. Better to make the other sht equal than to circle the same drain we have for three years. So ... Despite the fact that we've managed to achieve diversity everywhere else in the game, we will not be able to do so with low slots. The vast majority of low-slot modules sold will always be brick-related, and we just have to deal with that. Can't fix it. Our very best bet at mitigating the lack low-slot diversity is to decrease* high-slot diversity. This doesn't make practical sense to me, Breakin. I say, let Armor Modules remain the very best low slot modules. Let them be awesome, but make them somewhat less awesome than they are now. Like we did with MinAssaults. And make 'em tougher to fit. This way mercs will be encouraged to mix things up, rather than stack the same "best module" over and over again. This makes more practical sense, right? Hilariously you're more stubborn than I am. Done arguing. Nephew wins. Call me when you bring something new to the discussion. I'm not playing merry go round with you when you roll back around the same couple points no matter how many flaws and faults I find in the logic. What this boils down to for you is you dislike the lack of variety. Unfortunately that's not a strong enough reason for a nerf It's especially not worth nerfing half the suits when a few simple and basic buffs to the other suits would accomplish the same goal. It would take as much work to buff shields as to nerf armor. It's all database number changes. And you have yet to explain why fitting a kill suit for maximum durability and destruction or maneuverability is bad. I'm getting bored with the assertion that plates need to be nerfed because... :reasons:. And those reasons are unclear and not compelling. You're also repeating arguments you have repeated multiple times. Repeating them more will not compel me to support your position. This is falling into the realm of discussing vehicle balance with soraya or spkr4thedead. The only difference is the discussion is a thousand times more civil. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 642	Posted - 2015.08.01 21:00:00 - [139] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: . I'm not running for CPM like Breakin; is - so i don't have to hold back when i call you out on stupid comments :3 Please. I'm not going to lie to everyone and try to convince people I'm running an "I'll be nicer" campaign. I doubt too many people are stupid enough to believe that. Guess i just am a harsher poster? Somehow, i remember you being a bit rougher in dealing with people who constantly post the same opinion hoping it changes. And this finally comes true, lol.
Georgia Xavier Incorruptibles 1	Posted - 2015.08.01 21:09:00 - [140] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Ghost Kaisar wrote: Because he wants the old assault scouts back basically. The last thing I'd want to see is another round of Assault Lite FoTM. It would be nice, however, to see more loadout variety when it comes to low slots and viable slayer loadouts other than "stack hp". We see lots battlefield variety in dropsuits, primary weapons, secondary weapons, equipment, high slots and even vehicles. I see no reason why we should attempt to excuse, protect or justify the utter lack of variety observed in low slot module utilization. Variety can be found quite literally everywhere else in the game; why should low slots be any different? Nerfing Armor Plates won't resurrect Assault Lite, but it very well might make other low slot modules more attractive. Buffing other low slot modules could accomplish the same, but this approach would be far less efficient and more risky. In my estimation, increasing fitting requirements for plates would likely be the least risky and most efficient path to greater low slot variety. Increasing mobility penalties and/or introducing secondary drawbacks (i.e. penalty to stamina pool or recovery) to plates would probably work as well. Then why not buff the other low slot mods? Decreases fitting costs for kin cats is an example, fixing ewar and scouts in general will encourage usage of ewar mods. Card regs can have additional bonus, I don't know which but something useful Click for an instant good day! (or atleast cheer you up a bit)

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.08.01 21:18:00 - [141] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: . I'm not running for CPM like Breakin; is - so i don't have to hold back when i call you out on stupid comments :3 Please. I'm not going to lie to everyone and try to convince people I'm running an "I'll be nicer" campaign. I doubt too many people are stupid enough to believe that. Guess i just am a harsher poster? Somehow, i remember you being a bit rougher in dealing with people who constantly post the same opinion hoping it changes. And this finally comes true, lol. Spkr's ban expired. I'm saving my vitriol for his usual raft of crap. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 21:21:00 - [142] - Quote Georgia Xavier wrote: Then why not buff the other low slot mods? Decreases fitting costs for kin cats is an example, fixing ewar and scouts in general will encourage usage of ewar mods. Card regs can have additional bonus, I don't know which but something useful Absolutely an option. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.08.01 21:25:00 - [143] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Georgia Xavier wrote: Then why not buff the other low slot mods? Decreases fitting costs for kin cats is an example, fixing ewar and scouts in general will encourage usage of ewar mods. Card regs can have additional bonus, I don't know which but something useful Absolutely an option. and a much better one. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Larkson Crazy Eye WarRavens 149	Posted - 2015.08.01 21:25:00 - [144] - Quote One thing I see over and over again in this thread for the Pro Shield users is nerf everything else and buff my stuff. Frankly I think you need to think real hard about the issue and pick one or the other. If you buff shields and nerf armor at the same time it will just switch which side is OP. So you need to ask yourself do you want shields to be better or make armor as bad as shields are so no one uses any kind of defensive mods and just goes all out dmg and speed? You can't nerf anti shield weapons like scrambler rifles and buff shields at the same time, it would be a disaster. Shield are a completely lone wolf form of protection. You don't need any one else to recover and even the worst suits shield delay recovers insanely quickly compared to armor. Imo if your going to nerf anti shield weapons you'll also need to nerf shields. Lower the base recharge rate of suits, force people to use rechargers. Though I think those are the number one shield mod to be changed. They should boost your shield recharge by a number, not a %. As it is now a small group of suits with a high base recharge benefit from a recharge mod. Everyone else gets next to nothing out of even a complex one. Ib Halfheart, Goblin Tactician: "Everybody but me--CHARGE!"
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 21:32:00 - [145] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: What this boils down to for you is you dislike the lack of variety. Precisely correct. In my mind, variety means we're doing something right. We've come a long way since the days of everyone running the same suits and guns. We see variety in usage rates of suits, primaries, secondaries, equipment, and high slots. I see no reason why we should stop just short of the finish line. The persistent lack of variety in low slot utilization, to me, represents a clear opportunity for improvement. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 644	Posted - 2015.08.01 21:37:00 - [146] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: What this boils down to for you is you dislike the lack of variety. Precisely correct. In my mind, variety means we're doing something right. We've come a long way since the days of everyone running the same suits and guns. We see variety in usage rates of suits, primaries, secondaries, equipment, and high slots. I see no reason why we should stop just short of the finish line. The persistent lack of variety in low slot utilization, to me, represents a clear opportunity for improvement. but, you're wrong. There's the same variety in both. Speed, Reps, Armor, Damps vs PE, Shield, Damage, Mybos.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.08.01 21:42:00 - [147] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: What this boils down to for you is you dislike the lack of variety. Precisely correct. In my mind, variety means we're doing something right. We've come a long way since the days of everyone running the same suits and guns. We see variety in usage rates of suits, primaries, secondaries, equipment, and high slots. I see no reason why we should stop just short of the finish line. The persistent lack of variety in low slot utilization, to me, represents a clear opportunity for improvement. That's not good enough justification to nerf something. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 21:43:00 - [148] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: What this boils down to for you is you dislike the lack of variety. Precisely correct. In my mind, variety means we're doing something right. We've come a long way since the days of everyone running the same suits and guns. We see variety in usage rates of suits, primaries, secondaries, equipment, and high slots. I see no reason why we should stop just short of the finish line. The persistent lack of variety in low slot utilization, to me, represents a clear opportunity for improvement. but, you're wrong. There's the same variety in both. Speed, Reps, Armor, Damps vs PE, Shield, Damage, Mybos. http://dust.thang.dk/market_historycategory.php ^ Click Modules. If my understanding is correct, "Electronics Modules" is the combined sales of Dampeners, Precision Enhancers, Range Extenders and CPU Upgrades. Comparatively speaking, Armor Plate usage looks like Scout usage following Uprising 1.8. HP is very much still King. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.08.01 21:54:00 - [149] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: What this boils down to for you is you dislike the lack of variety. Precisely correct. In my mind, variety means we're doing something right. We've come a long way since the days of everyone running the same suits and guns. We see variety in usage rates of suits, primaries, secondaries, equipment, and high slots. I see no reason why we should stop just short of the finish line. The persistent lack of variety in low slot utilization, to me, represents a clear opportunity for improvement. but, you're wrong. There's the same variety in both. Speed, Reps, Armor, Damps vs PE, Shield, Damage, Mybos. http://dust.thang.dk/market_historycategory.php ^ Click Modules. If my understanding is correct, "Electronics Modules" is the combined sales of Dampeners, Precision Enhancers, Range Extenders and CPU Upgrades. Comparatively speaking, Armor Plate usage looks like Scout usage following Uprising 1.8. HP is very much still King. Still not justification to nerf something. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
D4GG3R 0uter.Heaven 1	Posted - 2015.08.01 22:00:00 - [150] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: Hp mods you idiot Let me elaborate. Dust infantry is basically a mix of hp, dps, speed, and regeneration. Ewar is another factor but let's just focus on a standard infantry unit. Now on any given suit how many hp mods do you place 50%? 80%? Dust is so far weighted towards hp and dps that speed and regeneration fits get overlooked and in general are UP. Ever wonder why so many people complain about shields? Because they are primarily focused on regeneration. So I'll say it again. Hp mods need to be nerfed and ttk needs to increase before speed and regeneration fits are balanced. I rarely have more than 1 armor mod. Anyone who stacks armor and that'd it is just an easy target I'm pretty plain. I watch anime for the boobs

noob cavman Nos Nothi 3	Posted - 2015.08.01 22:03:00 - [151] - Quote Pre 1.4 you rarely saw tanked out med frames or that many heavies. Sigh I miss pre aa The most abusive northerner. Beware semi organic deviants turning our solar system into a toxic hell hole.
Larkson Crazy Eye WarRavens 149	Posted - 2015.08.01 22:15:00 - [152] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: What this boils down to for you is you dislike the lack of variety. Precisely correct. In my mind, variety means we're doing something right. We've come a long way since the days of everyone running the same suits and guns. We see variety in usage rates of suits, primaries, secondaries, equipment, and high slots. I see no reason why we should stop just short of the finish line. The persistent lack of variety in low slot utilization, to me, represents a clear opportunity for improvement. but, you're wrong. There's the same variety in both. Speed, Reps, Armor, Damps vs PE, Shield, Damage, Mybos. http://dust.thang.dk/market_historycategory.php ^ Click Modules. If my understanding is correct, "Electronics Modules" is the combined sales of Dampeners, Precision Enhancers, Range Extenders and CPU Upgrades. Comparatively speaking, Armor Plate usage looks like Scout usage following Uprising 1.8. HP is very much still King. Well it's not like most non hp related things are worth anything. Profile dampeners and extenders do so little it's not worth dying to have them equipped. Not to mention their nearly useless on certain types of drop suits, like a heavy with a dampener. On the other hand EVERYONE can make use of shield and armor related stuff. Pointing towards mod sales isn't really a great indicator of that. By that logic we probably should buff scanners, I mean think of the sales of nano hives and rep tools compared to scanners? Every piece of gear doesn't have to be sold equally, as long as it still has a use. Which is kind of what that problem with most the other high and low slot mods is. Range extenders, precision enhancers, dampeners, etc are nearly useless. Kin cats, stamina boosters etc are not to bad but cost way to much CPU/PG at higher levels. Almost every level of the game has problems though. Logi equipment, especially proto nano hives cost way to much CPU/PG to be viable in most cases for what you get out of them. Never mind some of them you only get 3 of them instead of 6 despite being proto hives. There are so many problems in regards to balance and making every piece of gear worth using in DUST I wouldn't even want the Dev's to try. I'd rather them work on bigger bugs, issues and porting the game to a new format so it's around in a year. After all what's the point of making the perfectly balanced game you all dream of, if it's not around after PS3 levels get so low the player base dries up? Ib Halfheart, Goblin Tactician: "Everybody but me--CHARGE!"
Boot Booter Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.08.02 15:38:00 - [153] - Quote D4GG3R wrote: Boot Booter wrote: Hp mods you idiot Let me elaborate. Dust infantry is basically a mix of hp, dps, speed, and regeneration. Ewar is another factor but let's just focus on a standard infantry unit. Now on any given suit how many hp mods do you place 50%? 80%? Dust is so far weighted towards hp and dps that speed and regeneration fits get overlooked and in general are UP. Ever wonder why so many people complain about shields? Because they are primarily focused on regeneration. So I'll say it again. Hp mods need to be nerfed and ttk needs to increase before speed and regeneration fits are balanced. I rarely have more than 1 armor mod. Anyone who stacks armor and that'd it is just an easy target Good for you, but one example does not represent a population. Plus I'm including ferro and reactive as part of armor.
Boot Booter Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.08.02 17:42:00 - [154] - Quote Larkson Crazy Eye wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: What this boils down to for you is you dislike the lack of variety. Precisely correct. In my mind, variety means we're doing something right. We've come a long way since the days of everyone running the same suits and guns. We see variety in usage rates of suits, primaries, secondaries, equipment, and high slots. I see no reason why we should stop just short of the finish line. The persistent lack of variety in low slot utilization, to me, represents a clear opportunity for improvement. but, you're wrong. There's the same variety in both. Speed, Reps, Armor, Damps vs PE, Shield, Damage, Mybos. http://dust.thang.dk/market_historycategory.php ^ Click Modules. If my understanding is correct, "Electronics Modules" is the combined sales of Dampeners, Precision Enhancers, Range Extenders and CPU Upgrades. Comparatively speaking, Armor Plate usage looks like Scout usage following Uprising 1.8. HP is very much still King. Well it's not like most non hp related things are worth anything. Profile dampeners and extenders do so little it's not worth dying to have them equipped. Not to mention their nearly useless on certain types of drop suits, like a heavy with a dampener. On the other hand EVERYONE can make use of shield and armor related stuff. Pointing towards mod sales isn't really a great indicator of that. By that logic we probably should buff scanners, I mean think of the sales of nano hives and rep tools compared to scanners? Every piece of gear doesn't have to be sold equally, as long as it still has a use. Which is kind of what that problem with most the other high and low slot mods is. Range extenders, precision enhancers, dampeners, etc are nearly useless. Kin cats, stamina boosters etc are not to bad but cost way to much CPU/PG at higher levels. Almost every level of the game has problems though. Logi equipment, especially proto nano hives cost way to much CPU/PG to be viable in most cases for what you get out of them. Never mind some of them you only get 3 of them instead of 6 despite being proto hives. There are so many problems in regards to balance and making every piece of gear worth using in DUST I wouldn't even want the Dev's to try. I'd rather them work on bigger bugs, issues and porting the game to a new format so it's around in a year. After all what's the point of making the perfectly balanced game you all dream of, if it's not around after PS3 levels get so low the player base dries up? Fair enough. But is it that other modules are worthless or is it that one type of mod is too effective? Equipment is an interesting topic though but I imagine that data is skewed due to the fact that certain roles and weapons require certain equipment (mass driver + nanohive)


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