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Nerf HP, buff versatility

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Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 17:44:00 - [91] - Quote I'm honestly blown away that you two are attempting to blame heavily skewed data on player sentiment and skill. How do you propose Rattati balance anything if usage rates are meaningless? Couldn't the same arguments be made to excuse every form of imbalance? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 632	Posted - 2015.08.01 17:44:00 - [92] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: @ sota pop Whatever dude. If you truly think a pissing contest between two people proves anything you're an idiot. Like I said in my original posts, obviously skilled players get more versatility because they can afford to have less hp. The idiot is the person saying something is true then is unwilling to actually put it to test to prove it. Put up or shut up, simple as that.
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 632	Posted - 2015.08.01 17:46:00 - [93] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: I'm honestly blown away that you two are attempting to blame heavily skewed data on player sentiment and skill. How do you propose Rattati balance anything if usage rates are meaningless? Couldn't the same arguments be made to excuse every form of imbalance? It's not a proper form to make an educate guess or opinion, there's more, important variables at play to make better assumptions with if you're going with assumptions to begin with, like you are. Send CCP a mail and ask which suit is being KILLED the most, and which suit is doing the killing. Suits being bought shows no concrete evidence to anything other then popularity. I'd be more interested in what suits PC players buy, not the community, as they're the players who care about winning.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 17:47:00 - [94] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: Boot Booter wrote: @ sota pop Whatever dude. If you truly think a pissing contest between two people proves anything you're an idiot. Like I said in my original posts, obviously skilled players get more versatility because they can afford to have less hp. The idiot is the person saying something is true then is unwilling to actually put it to test to prove it. Put up or shut up, simple as that. In my book, the idiot is the guy who points to a year of heavily skewed usage data and says "it's the way it is because of sentiment". Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 17:48:00 - [95] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: I'm honestly blown away that you two are attempting to blame heavily skewed data on player sentiment and skill. How do you propose Rattati balance anything if usage rates are meaningless? Couldn't the same arguments be made to excuse every form of imbalance? It's not a proper form to make an educate guess or opinion, there's more, important variables at play to make better assumptions with if you're going with assumptions to begin with, like you are. Send CCP a mail and ask which suit is being KILLED the most, and which suit is doing the killing. Suits being bought shows no concrete evidence to anything other then popularity. I'd be more interested in what suits PC players buy, not the community, as they're the players who care about winning. I'm not making assumptions, Sota. The usage data is right here: http://dust.thang.dk/ Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 636	Posted - 2015.08.01 17:50:00 - [96] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: Boot Booter wrote: @ sota pop Whatever dude. If you truly think a pissing contest between two people proves anything you're an idiot. Like I said in my original posts, obviously skilled players get more versatility because they can afford to have less hp. The idiot is the person saying something is true then is unwilling to actually put it to test to prove it. Put up or shut up, simple as that. In my book, the idiot is the guy who points to a year of heavily skewed usage data and says "it's the way it is because of sentiment". Isn't... that what you're doing? Using irrelevant data to prove a point is almost exactly trying to express a sentiment rather then argument. I would just stop replying if you're going to continue using weak evidence to back claims. Market sells should never be the basis of your argument in concerns with balance discussions.
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 636	Posted - 2015.08.01 17:51:00 - [97] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: I'm honestly blown away that you two are attempting to blame heavily skewed data on player sentiment and skill. How do you propose Rattati balance anything if usage rates are meaningless? Couldn't the same arguments be made to excuse every form of imbalance? It's not a proper form to make an educate guess or opinion, there's more, important variables at play to make better assumptions with if you're going with assumptions to begin with, like you are. Send CCP a mail and ask which suit is being KILLED the most, and which suit is doing the killing. Suits being bought shows no concrete evidence to anything other then popularity. I'd be more interested in what suits PC players buy, not the community, as they're the players who care about winning. I'm not making assumptions, Sota. The usage data is right here: http://dust.thang.dk/market_tryhardinator.php It's an assumption to assume because of market data that one thing is one way or another. You lack too much information or variables to make any claims, or assumptions.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.08.01 17:56:00 - [98] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: I'm honestly blown away that you two are attempting to blame heavily skewed data on player sentiment and skill. How do you propose Rattati balance anything if usage rates are meaningless? Couldn't the same arguments be made to excuse every form of imbalance? Usually is. And no, skill does not justify imbalance. Nor have I ever used that argument. Or are you talking about boot? And bluntly usage rates are obvious because armor is the better meta for reasons I've hashed out, you have hashed out, everyone but the people who like to think of cal suits as free KD padding have hashed out. I am simply of the opinion that bringing the shields up to armor level is the answer. Bluntly until EWAR gets a total overhaul (the mechanics are trash) there's no value in low slot ewar mods. Stacking lots of reps really has little advantage and kincats are the primary non plate low slot for a reason (I actually prefer cardiacs). Heavy plates are the mainstay of fatties. That's kind of a necessity. Reactive and ferros are favored by everyone but me on assaults. Scouts... I only play scouts for the lulz. Regulators are as useful as a football bat on armor suits and of marginal utility at best on min suits. Nothing you do to plates will make any of the alternatives attractive. All that happens is people swap to glass cannon speed fits because sprint sped mitigates damage via escape. Without a better variety of mods in both the highs and lows you will never see assault,commando and sentinel players give up the HP. Damps are nominally useful on calassaults only because sometimes you don't want to stack triple regulators, but usually kincats are the better choice. All because range mods for ewar are trash, so making a detection fit suit is pointless. And damps can only get under an STD scanner. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:00:00 - [99] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: You lack too much information or variables to make any claims, or assumptions. We all have access to the same information. If you're saying the information we all have access to is insufficient to make claims, then none of us can make claims. If no one can make a claim, we are all -- every single one of us -- wasting our time. I reject your claim. It's an idiotic claim. We can all make observations in game. We can all compare those observations with market data. We can all compare our observations with the observations of other users. We can make whatever claims and inferences we wish. Some will be more accurate than others. That is the nature of user feedback, and user feedback has value. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Boot Booter Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:03:00 - [100] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: Boot Booter wrote: @ sota pop Whatever dude. If you truly think a pissing contest between two people proves anything you're an idiot. Like I said in my original posts, obviously skilled players get more versatility because they can afford to have less hp. The idiot is the person saying something is true then is unwilling to actually put it to test to prove it. Put up or shut up, simple as that. Im unwilling to put it to the test because I am about to go to breakfast with my girlfriend and then go rafting down a river. Also, if you knew anything about science you'd realise that regardless of the outcome of our 1v1 it is not a proper test of anything. The sample size is a bit small don't you think?

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:04:00 - [101] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: You lack too much information or variables to make any claims, or assumptions. We all have access to the same information. If you're saying the information we all have access to is insufficient to make claims, then none of us can make claims. If no one can make a claim, we are all -- every single one of us -- wasting our time. I reject your claim. It's an idiotic claim. We can all make observations in game. We can all compare those observations with market data. We can make whatever claims and inferences we wish. Some more accurate than others. That is the nature of user feedback. Allow me to say it better. Market data bereft of kill/spawn and average fitting data is the equivalent of trying to determine which company to invest in by watching what people buy at the grocery store. By itself there isn't enough data to make a determination, merely determine that there is some kind of trend. It does not address WHY there is a trend. Nor does it provide any of the variables needed to determine a break point. It is information in a vacuum, bereft of real content or context with which to see the wheole picture. No balance decisions are made solely upon market data ever. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Boot Booter Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:07:00 - [102] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: You lack too much information or variables to make any claims, or assumptions. We all have access to the same information. If you're saying the information we all have access to is insufficient to make claims, then none of us can make claims. If no one can make a claim, we are all -- every single one of us -- wasting our time. I reject your claim. It's an idiotic claim. We can all make observations in game. We can all compare those observations with market data. We can make whatever claims and inferences we wish. Some more accurate than others. That is the nature of user feedback. Allow me to say it better. Market data bereft of kill/spawn and average fitting data is the equivalent of trying to determine which company to invest in by watching what people buy at the grocery store. By itself there isn't enough data to make a determination, merely determine that there is some kind of trend. It does not address WHY there is a trend. Nor does it provide any of the variables needed to determine a break point. It is information in a vacuum, bereft of real content or context with which to see the wheole picture. No balance decisions are made solely upon market data ever. Usage rates is literally how ratatti balanced weapons after he did the dps vs range method. Sooooooooooooo
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:07:00 - [103] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: No balance decisions are made solely upon market data ever. And rightly so. But for flux sake, that is not an excuse to ignore market data. (I know you realize this, Breakin ... this is aimed at Sota.) Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 637	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:08:00 - [104] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: You lack too much information or variables to make any claims, or assumptions. We all have access to the same information. If you're saying the information we all have access to is insufficient to make claims, then none of us can make claims. If no one can make a claim, we are all -- every single one of us -- wasting our time. I reject your claim. It's an idiotic claim. We can all make observations in game. We can all compare those observations with market data. We can make whatever claims and inferences we wish. Some more accurate than others. That is the nature of user feedback, and user feedback has value. this is pretty much exactly correct - and why discussions like these go back and forth and back and forth - CCP isn't relaying all relevant data to us in a way we can clearly understand. So trying to tell them how balance should work when we don't have all the proper variables is the other half of the problem i have with threads like these. All we can do is suggest, and then give opinion on how we feel things should go - then they take the opinion and work around it to create balance. ofc, all the spread sheet data is available to you, so instead of using other peoples actions to base your opinion on - you could use that. Just a thought, though. :P
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:09:00 - [105] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: ofc, all the spread sheet data is available to you, so instead of using other peoples actions to base your opinion on - you could use that. Just a thought, though. :P What are you even talking about now? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:10:00 - [106] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: Usage rates is literally how ratatti balanced weapons after he did the dps vs range method. Sooooooooooooo Nice work latching onto one of his comments in a statement and igniring every other part of it. Bravo. Since you're latching onto that particular point of stupid, I see no reason to take you seriously any further. Have fun. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 637	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:10:00 - [107] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: ofc, all the spread sheet data is available to you, so instead of using other peoples actions to base your opinion on - you could use that. Just a thought, though. :P What are you even talking about now? you're talking of balance using market data instead of... you know, actual stats? o.0
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:10:00 - [108] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: No balance decisions are made solely upon market data ever. And rightly so. But for flux sake, that is not an excuse to ignore market data. Usage data speaks volumes. (I know you realize this, Breakin ... this is aimed at Sota.) Trying to illustrate a better way of making the point more than trying to lecture you actually. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:12:00 - [109] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: No balance decisions are made solely upon market data ever. And rightly so. But for flux sake, that is not an excuse to ignore market data. Usage data speaks volumes. (I know you realize this, Breakin ... this is aimed at Sota.) Trying to illustrate a better way of making the point more than trying to lecture you actually. I followed. Didn't feel lectured at all :-) PS: Owe you an apology. Had initially grouped you with SoTa. Clearly, you are not in the "everything is fine" camp. Good to know. PPS: The CPM2 comment earlier was directed at Sgt Kirk and Aeon Amadi. You and I likely disagree on rifle balanced design, but I don't recall you making excuses for the AR during AR-514, and my earlier comment was not aimed at you. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 637	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:17:00 - [110] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: No balance decisions are made solely upon market data ever. And rightly so. But for flux sake, that is not an excuse to ignore market data. Usage data speaks volumes. (I know you realize this, Breakin ... this is aimed at Sota.) Trying to illustrate a better way of making the point more than trying to lecture you actually. I followed. Didn't feel lectured at all :-) PS: Owe you an apology. Had initially grouped you with SoTa. Clearly, you are not in the "everything is fine" camp. Also, the CPM2 comment was directed at Sgt Kirk and Aeon Amadi (not you). You clearly suck at reading and have turned to kiss ass to negate some of the stupid you've said. I have mentioned over and over the problem, and why your reasonings doesn't help anyone come to a solution. I'm not running for CPM like Breakin; is - so i don't have to hold back when i call you out on stupid comments :3

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:23:00 - [111] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: No balance decisions are made solely upon market data ever. And rightly so. But for flux sake, that is not an excuse to ignore market data. Usage data speaks volumes. (I know you realize this, Breakin ... this is aimed at Sota.) Trying to illustrate a better way of making the point more than trying to lecture you actually. I followed. Didn't feel lectured at all :-) PS: Owe you an apology. Had initially grouped you with SoTa. Clearly, you are not in the "everything is fine" camp. Also, the CPM2 comment was directed at Sgt Kirk and Aeon Amadi (not you). You clearly suck at reading and have turned to kiss ass to negate some of the stupid you've said. I have mentioned over and over the problem, and why your reasonings doesn't help anyone come to a solution. I'm not running for CPM like Breakin; is - so i don't have to hold back when i call you out on stupid comments :3 I'm not kissing Breakin's ass, and I'm pretty sure he knows it. He and I are more-or-less constantly at odds. I respect his opinions and I appreciate the fact that he can form a logical thought and argue it. It makes getting to the heart of things easier. You should try it sometime. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:26:00 - [112] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: . I'm not running for CPM like Breakin; is - so i don't have to hold back when i call you out on stupid comments :3 Please. I'm not going to lie to everyone and try to convince people I'm running an "I'll be nicer" campaign. I doubt too many people are stupid enough to believe that. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 637	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:29:00 - [113] - Quote Again, stop trying the kiss ass approach. backhanded compliments to someone telling you you're wrong while going after the person saying the exact same thing as him in a harsher way - doesn't look like ass kissing to you? If you can't debate your point that's fine, but no need to make a spectacle of yourself. I hate you all equally, and treat you all the way i expect to be treated, so don't worry. Come at me with everything you've got.
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 637	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:30:00 - [114] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: . I'm not running for CPM like Breakin; is - so i don't have to hold back when i call you out on stupid comments :3 Please. I'm not going to lie to everyone and try to convince people I'm running an "I'll be nicer" campaign. I doubt too many people are stupid enough to believe that. Guess i just am a harsher poster? Somehow, i remember you being a bit rougher in dealing with people who constantly post the same opinion hoping it changes.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:40:00 - [115] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: Again, stop trying the kiss ass approach. backhanded compliments to someone telling you you're wrong while going after the person saying the exact same thing as him in a harsher way - doesn't look like ass kissing to you? If you can't debate your point that's fine, but no need to make a spectacle of yourself. I hate you all equally, and treat you all the way i expect to be treated, so don't worry. Come at me with everything you've got. Dude, I'm not admitted that I'm wrong. I stand by my every position. I'm right. You're wrong. I'm acknowledging the fact that Breakin is somewhere in between. I'd initially thought he was dead wrong. Turns out, he is only partly wrong. I can concede that and still be right. Breakin is right in that Armor is out-of-balance. He is wrong about how to fix it. Arguably, at least. As for you, I've no intention or reason to debate with you further. Why would I? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Shadowed Cola Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire 637	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:45:00 - [116] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: Again, stop trying the kiss ass approach. backhanded compliments to someone telling you you're wrong while going after the person saying the exact same thing as him in a harsher way - doesn't look like ass kissing to you? If you can't debate your point that's fine, but no need to make a spectacle of yourself. I hate you all equally, and treat you all the way i expect to be treated, so don't worry. Come at me with everything you've got. Dude, I'm not admitted that I'm wrong. I stand by my every position. I'm right. You're wrong. I'm acknowledging the fact that Breakin is somewhere between. I'd initially thought he was dead wrong. Turns out, he is only partly wrong. I think i hurt myself smacking my head too hard reading this. Went from backhanded compliments to backhanded insult, lol. No wonder he gave up on you, but at least you respect his opinion enough to give him... half credit? idk, your logic not only seems flawed, but so biased that the only light shining down on it is the small hole you left open from trying to **** your opinion into this discussion. A very, very, small hole. ;p P.S.: Your opinion is garbage because it's based on deluded data, fyi. no trolling required to tell you you're stupid, you're telling yourself then advertising it to everyone else with a smile. +1 for the smile :3
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:48:00 - [117] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: Again, stop trying the kiss ass approach. backhanded compliments to someone telling you you're wrong while going after the person saying the exact same thing as him in a harsher way - doesn't look like ass kissing to you? If you can't debate your point that's fine, but no need to make a spectacle of yourself. I hate you all equally, and treat you all the way i expect to be treated, so don't worry. Come at me with everything you've got. Dude, I'm not admitted that I'm wrong. I stand by my every position. I'm right. You're wrong. I'm acknowledging the fact that Breakin is somewhere in between. I'd initially thought he was dead wrong. Turns out, he is only partly wrong. I can concede that and still be right. Breakin is right in that Armor is out-of-balance. He is wrong about how to fix it. Arguably, at least. As for you, I've no intention or reason to debate with you further. Why would I? You are only more right than I am in your own opinion. The solution is increasing the viability of alternative options, not nerfing the viable options until the garbage dumpster bits look more attractive. That's my point. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:51:00 - [118] - Quote Shadowed Cola wrote: no trolling required to tell you you're stupid That's the second or third time you've called me stupid in this thread, Sota. Not sure what you're basis is, but do you really think I'm stupid? If not, why say it? If so, put a number on it. Then tell me your number. I'm truly curious. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 12	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:57:00 - [119] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Shadowed Cola wrote: Again, stop trying the kiss ass approach. backhanded compliments to someone telling you you're wrong while going after the person saying the exact same thing as him in a harsher way - doesn't look like ass kissing to you? If you can't debate your point that's fine, but no need to make a spectacle of yourself. I hate you all equally, and treat you all the way i expect to be treated, so don't worry. Come at me with everything you've got. Dude, I'm not admitted that I'm wrong. I stand by my every position. I'm right. You're wrong. I'm acknowledging the fact that Breakin is somewhere in between. I'd initially thought he was dead wrong. Turns out, he is only partly wrong. I can concede that and still be right. Breakin is right in that Armor is out-of-balance. He is wrong about how to fix it. Arguably, at least. As for you, I've no intention or reason to debate with you further. Why would I? You are only more right than I am in your own opinion. The solution is increasing the viability of alternative options, not nerfing the viable options until the garbage dumpster bits look more attractive. That's my point. It'll be alot of work to buff shields and rework all other low-slot modules. In the interim, nerf plate HP output and/or increase fitting requirements? This way plates will still be better than everything else (while we work on everything else), but less obnoxiously so. No matter how cut it, they're OP. Why let them remain that way while we work out a protracted solution? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 10	Posted - 2015.08.01 18:59:00 - [120] - Quote Nerfing it then fixing shields to un nerf it is doing twice the work. You're not doing anyone any favors by asking for blanket nerfs to plates without addressing why shields are buggered up in the first place. WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.



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