About current cosmetic only - shake VS proposed real forge shake:


There's been heavy threads earlier by King Kobrah here.




Still the good way to handle forge sniping would be to fix the cosmetic only charge up shake.

SUGGESTION: Make forge shots go where the sight is while shaking
And all forges should shake again while holding a charge (maybe maybe not breach)


It is supposed to be a balancing factor for aiming, but it is just the shake of the gun and sights - the shot still goes dead center.
Which can be abused by having tape/monitor feature - but in skilled hands even that is not required.

Hence the forge sniping issue.


Having the shake REALLY affect where the forge shot goes does the following:
- It would still be possible to kill infantry at extreme range, but it would take both skill and a bit of luck. Not just to have red reticle.
- Far better way than to nerf forge damage at range, that would make it purely close up weapon =(
- Far better way than to nerf forge damage vs infantry, that shot should still kill. And nerfing vs infantry only would make fg users even more defenseless against AR infantry in close
- Shake would make it harder to lock down the entire map by forging from top of skyscrapers. It would still be possible to harass and occasionally kill, even tanks, but not godlike total domination
- Forge would be still very powerful as it would still be easy to hit up to medium range (AV especially).


AV implications of NOT having the shake:
- It has been is very hard to balance dropships as they have to face anti HAV weapons full on, even at extreme ranges. Shake would make DSs life easier (note that because that has NOT been the case, DSs were given protection by adding a lot of HP. Which in turn partially lead to swarm ineffectivity, before swarm rebuff... Everything affects everything.)
- Forge ranges were nerfed hard from 600m to 300m. The reason for the nerf was: Too effective at extreme range. Killing tanks, DSs and countersniping redline infantry.

Wait wait wait Aeon, I partialy agree with you on what you said, but how is that you need 6 or 7 sniper shots to kill one guy? One headshot and you OS anything !

Edit: btw, I consider all snipers as ***** licking cowards, so you'd rather don't have my POV on this topic.

No joke, I have a pair of these. My Dad gave them to me.

With the zoom feature on my TV, the Dust Menu options, and a mouse and keyboard...they kind of work...except your peripheral vision is non-existent.

A Caldari Commando with all skills level 5, Thale's Sniper Rifle, and three Complex Light Damage Mods cannot one-shot a Gallente Sentinel due to the 15% rail-damage reduction and high EHP factor. If Protofits is to be believed than a Gallente Sentinel would survive a shot from that CalMando with 15 HP to spare - while miniscule and not much to go off of, it does infact survive and that is without any shield/armor increasing modules.

But landing a headshot by itself is extraordinarily difficult against a moving target at most ranges.

Lol I want one those, whered you get them Jadek?

Looks like you can also pick them up from Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/As-Seen-On-TV-ZM013124/dp/B00DVQF1F4

Let's go ahead and watch a four minute comedy video on why you should just tape a magnifying glass to the center of your screen and use a Forge Gun instead of using a sniper rifle.

I'll never understand the hypocrisy of how an immobile sniper killing people with five or seven shots from 400m away is somehow more OP than a sentinel with weapon/explosive damage resistance with a one-shot-everything weapon at 400m who still has the benefit of mobility. Apparently the deciding factor in whether or not either of those are OP is a scope, which is just ridiculous.

I'm sure there's going to be a boatload of "you suck" and "git gud scrub" - fact of the matter is that a Forge Gun can do just as much if not better (AV capability, mobility). And because of that, in combination with Dust 514's abyssmal map design which puts a tower with clear view on two objectives, you get situations like the above video where it is nigh impossible to get them off of a roof without an orbital strike - which can be difficult to attain at times. Proper gameplay balance is 3,500+ Warpoints to get an Orbital strike to deal with a handful of dudes that can totally cover just two objectives, I guess.

This really is stupid. Don't get me wrong, I'm no Gem Cutter (I don't have a zoom function on my TV) but I'm certainly not the worst sniper in the game either. Apart from having to deal with shoddy hit detection and the fact that the Efficiency Rating in the lower-right will lie to you (says headshot damage but it really means a miss) the sniper rifle just CANNOT do enough damage to make it worth while at times, even with the 300% headshot bonus. If a Sentinel can survive -SEVERAL- headshots and still lay you out with a single blast from a Forge Gun then what point is there to using a sniper rifle in the first place?

All of this is demonstrated with this video here, right down to the efficiency rating being just broken and the fact that even a bad Sentinel can out-class a sniper any day, even if that sniper has the initiative. Had I done the smart thing a year ago and specced into Sentinels when they were OP as hell, I would be able to put the dude down in one shot using the exact same weapon he's using because.... #balance? Here's a post by Skyline Lonewolf (another well known sniper) who echoes this sentiment.

Honestly, at this point, I'm just going to begrudgingly advocate that sniper rifles be removed from the game entirely because they serve no purpose any longer, their role on the battlefield has been neutered, and there is no way to make them viable without the entirety of the forums throwing a conniption fit. There is little to no support of sniper rifles - either through balancing or role mechanics.

Symbiotic Forks already took off back in February, even despite having an officer sniper rifle named after him. Gem Cutter took off years ago, and a lot of the more memorable snipers beyond that have left for greener pastures. I mean, honestly, how many of you actually look at someone on the player list and think, "Sniper" anymore?

And as much as I don't want this to be a rant thread, what honest to god discussion points can there be when the mass majority won't even hear proposals on how to make snipers better? What discussion can there be if the only thing the forums, CPM, and Devs seem to be willing to consider is a) nerf the sniper rifle b) fiddle with things that don't matter to the sniper rifle at all?

All I'm asking is to be proven wrong, here.

EDIT: Specced into Forge Guns. Considering how well I did with my first time using it since Closed Beta, I think I'll keep it.

Why on Earth would even try too snipe a large group of heavies on a tower with a sniper?
Ideally no one would snipe a large group of wearing Power Armor like suits, that can eat a a frikkin 50. Cal in the head like the bullet was a pebble

This ain't David and Goliath, this is Dust 514, no matter how good you are or how powerful you're gun is, Sniping a group of sentinels in Dust, Is you Fighting a family of Rhinos, it's impossible too beat

A Caldari Commando with all skills level 5, Thale's Sniper Rifle, and three Complex Light Damage Mods cannot one-shot a Gallente Sentinel due to the 15% rail-damage reduction and high EHP factor. If Protofits is to be believed than a Gallente Sentinel would survive a shot from that CalMando with 15 HP to spare - while miniscule and not much to go off of, it does infact survive and that is without any shield/armor increasing modules.

But landing a headshot by itself is extraordinarily difficult against a moving target at most ranges.

Its not that difficult. If the guy you want to kill is moving then try to predict its movements. When they are running straight is quite easy to get the headshot. It might be a bit harder when they are moving in circles or erratically, but even then you can get a headshot if you hace patience and wait the right moment.

S'why there are so many elite headshotting snipers running amok in the game, right? Lol, if it were easy everyone would do it.

Again, patience. Thats what most people lack.

For me the fundamental difference between the two is... when I get sniped I think "Eat my dck you camping arseclown", and when I get forged at any range I think "That's a crafty fat bastid". Something about getting sniped just doesn't sit well with me in any game. Lazy good for nothing snipers hiding on a rock somewhere eating nachos....

So the psychology difference of being shot several times by someone with a scope as opposed to one round without a scope..? Lol. What would put a sniper rifle in the same category as 'that's a crafty bastid'?

To Aeon; I get your point with one headshot, one kill. Now, this is usually how it goes for me, except with heavys (altough sometimes I do get it). Of course, I have to fit like 3 damage modifiers, if I dont I cant get even one kill. Now, if I dont get the headshot is harder to get a kill in one shot, thats true.

Also, something I think its important and this is my opinion; lets say that you shoot with the sniper rifle and you get the kill. You shoot again and other kill. And again, and again and again. People start complaining because its OP. Like the remote eplosives. Now, I get you are saying it needs to be looked up and I respect that, really, however, I see sniper rifles a lot when the game is so kind to inform who got killed by who.

But, again, it's the whole weapon philosophy. Like, that is literally what that entire weapon's objective, design, and purpose is. There is no other point to a sniper rifle at all.

Rail-guns, Plasma Cannons, Forge Guns are all weapons that can one-shot someone on a hit. Should we add bullet travel time to the Sniper Rifle? Would that somehow make it less OP; if it were not hit scan? Even though it completely defies logic (it's a freaggin rail gun after all)

But, again, it's the whole weapon philosophy. Like, that is literally what that entire weapon's objective, design, and purpose is. There is no other point to a sniper rifle at all.

Rail-guns, Plasma Cannons, Forge Guns are all weapons that can one-shot someone on a hit. Should we add bullet travel time to the Sniper Rifle? Would that somehow make it less OP; if it were not hit scan? Even though it completely defies logic (it's a freaggin rail gun after all)

Problem with travel time is wiggle wiggle unless the muzzle velocity is high enough which could potentially make it balanced, but when you'd have to add travel time to everything else, because then, it really wouldn't make sense for an AR to hit instantly in comparison to a RR which should, for all intent an purposes, would instantly reach the intended target.

However, then you'd have to rebalance ALL the weapon's around muzzle velocity and damage, which could better balance out the game, as slow muzzle velocity and short range weapon's would have more damage, than long range, high muzzle velocity weapon's.

But, again, it's the whole weapon philosophy. Like, that is literally what that entire weapon's objective, design, and purpose is. There is no other point to a sniper rifle at all.

Rail-guns, Plasma Cannons, Forge Guns are all weapons that can one-shot someone on a hit. Should we add bullet travel time to the Sniper Rifle? Would that somehow make it less OP; if it were not hit scan? Even though it completely defies logic (it's a freaggin rail gun after all)

By that argument the Forge gun should be hitscan, not 500 m/s.

It is a freaggin rail gun after all.

the problem with comparing the forge to the sniper is the weapons do entirely different things, and don't behave the same way.

TTK on a forge gun from pulling the trigger to discharge is at minimum 2.25 seconds. It is never less.

One of the things no one acknowledges is the charge time in the comparisons, of which the charge sniper is the only comparable situation.

I'll be the first to admit. I only counter-snipe. But I use a sniper rifle (and a crapton of damage mods on a calmando) to do it. But comparing the function of the forge gun to the sniper is rather akin to comparing the flavor of apples and pants. there's very little similarity, and the sniper used to be functionally more lethal to infantry. The forge gun used to be the comedy option, not the preference.

What changed? I'm banking on the craptastic framerate and lag-stutter. The jittery-jerky movement in the end of the reticle, combined with the lack of inertia really does a number on the efficiency of the sniper, where in other games (which I still suck at sniping in) don't have as much of an issue HITTING, whereas just landing a body shot with a DUST sniper can be like pulling teeth.

But my personal issues with it seem to be framerate stutter.

Your experiences may differ.

Again, no-one is saying that Forge Guns need to be nerfed. The only thing that is being said about Forge Guns is that they are better than Sniper Rifles in many ways.

And before you say "charge-up" or "mag count" go ahead and take a good hard look at the Charge Sniper Rifle.