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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1
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Posted - 2015.07.17 14:49:00 -
[1] - Quote
General Mosquito wrote:Simple question,
can 3 lai dais and a PLC shot take out a dual rep dual hardener madrugar with its hardeners up?
Yes or no?
Simple answer: no, the tank will survive.
Long answer:
Lai Dai Packed does 1563 damage * 0.6 first hardener * 0.656 second hardener * 1.2 explosive profile = 738 damage * 3 = 2214 damage over about a second and a half.
Allotek PLC does 1690 damage * 1.1 blaster profile * 1.15 prof five = 2138 - 1200 Maddy shields = 938 / 1.1 to revert blaster profile then * .9 for profile vs armour * 0.6 * 0.656 = 302 damage to armour.
2214 + 302 = 2516 damage to armour, aka not enough to destroy the Madrugar's armour. Plus, the amount of time to throw three AV grenades is roughly 1.5-2 seconds, meaning the Madrugar will repair 275-550 armour in that time frame.
So basically, no. Is it close? Sort of. As has been touched upon, the Maddy simply needs to move a small amount to throw off a single grenade and it has no chance of death.
I definitely think M+¦bius is on the right track. When the discussion before was centre around sHAVs, I thought the crew style HAV might become a thing. Basically, have the Marduk/Gladius sort of as-is, but have the Madrugar/Gunnlogi as a driver/gunner split. You could then actually justify having amazing resilience because you could require multiple operators for full effect.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1
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Posted - 2015.07.17 23:30:00 -
[2] - Quote
Devadander wrote:In the spirit of being constructive.
TL;DR If you can't solo a tank, maybe not keep trying solo. And if you keep dying as a solo tanker, maybe make a 3 man tank and get some friends.
Most of those are about the Gunnlogi, which is pretty spoton for balance: it can be killed with reasonable effort, but can also be a terror when operated well.
The Madrugar, however, is the issue. From your own anecdotes your Madrugars were either not threatened or completely dominated by massive AV Swamping (3-4+; and still not dying) or rails.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1
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Posted - 2015.07.18 00:22:00 -
[3] - Quote
General Mosquito wrote:I say three lai dais and a PLC round will destroy a dual rep Maddy, and simple math says it is correct. You said that two people should be a sufficient threat to a tank, I gave you a list of methods that would cut through a double hardened and plated maddy with its hardeners up. You can do the math and see that those examples hold up to scrutiny.
Not once have you, or breakin provided any sort of data, nor do either of you attempt to refute any of my statement with some basic math to show why they are wrong.
You won't even answer a simple question like how many seconds should it take a single infantry suit to destroy a hardened tank. Why not? Do you not want people to see how ridiculous your demands are for what you consider balanced?
Please reference this post for maths disagreeing with your PLC+Lai Dai statement.
As an additional point, assuming that the Maddy has no shields:
APLC: 1690 * 0.9 (profile vs armour) * 0.6 * 0.656 = 599
Nade: 1563 * 1.2 (profile) * 0.6 * 0.656 = 739 * 3 = 2217
2217 + 599 = 2816
Assuming this takes you 0.5 seconds to accomplish (and will, in reality, take 1-2), the Madrugar (assuming 2x PRO Heavy Reps) will repair 137.5. Subtracting that from the damage we arrive at 2817-137.5=2679.5 damage taken: aka, the Madrugar survives.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1
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Posted - 2015.07.18 00:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
Devadander wrote:I already pointed out that the PLC is a crap weapon vs any HAV. Idc about the math, I know firsthand.
I...don't care.
This was in no way a response to your posts and is, in fact, a response to General Mosquito's specific question for Adipem Nothi, asking him if one APLC and 3x Lai Dai Packed AV Grenades would kill a double Hardened/double Repped Madrugar.
He was stating that the maths supports his claim that it does. I have provided maths that shows otherwise. That is all.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1
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Posted - 2015.07.18 01:08:00 -
[5] - Quote
General Mosquito wrote:Sorry I missed your earlier post, but thank you for reposting it.
Clearly, I was wrong about it being an absolute. Given the margin, prof wouldn't even push it over. Prof and a single damage mod would, although that would be too much leeway for my original point.
Thank you for the correction.
Mathematically, maybe. At the same time this is assuming an absolutely perfect ambush for the AVer. Not only does throw range on the AV grenades matter immensely, but Packed AV grenades have a far smaller seek radius and what that means is that a Maddy moving even slowly will be able to accelerate/stop altogether to avoid one or more grenades.
While mathematically the numbers might support the AVer (I doubt it, actually, but would need to run the numbers further*) the typical battlefield situation supports the notion that the HAV will survive, due to the actual mobility of it.
*
With two damage mods, vs shields, the AVer will still not kill the Madrugar.
1690*1.1*1.15*1.07*(.07*.86+1)*1.05 (Warbarge) = 2547 - 1200 Shields = 1347/1.15/1.1*0.9= 378; this is 76 more damage, even including Level 5 Warbarge (not previously included.)
2516 (previous damage to armour) + 76 = 2592 damage to armour is still insufficient to kill the Madrugar.
Applying the Warbarge bonus to the 'No Shields' situation I ran gives an armour damage total of 2930: sufficient to kill the Madrugar assuming a 0.5s of repair (137.5; 2792.5) but insufficient if the Madrugar has a full 1.0s of repair (275; 2655.)
This is still assuming that the Madrugar is entirely immobile/the AVer is able to land all three grenades without the Madrugar moving enough (which is perfectly possible with a Fuel Injector.)
Essentially, the math is extremely close to killing the Madrugar for a perfect ambush, but any kind of imperfection sees the Maddy survive. Similarly, however, if the Maddy hasn't activated its hardeners then it is definitely dead.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1
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Posted - 2015.07.18 01:39:00 -
[6] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Kallas Hallytyr wrote:Devadander wrote:A one hardener limit would doom shield HAV. This is wholeheartedly agree with. With Shield regen able to be halted, Shield tanks need that extra resistance, especially considering that their hardeners are also both shorter lasting and longer cooling down. Thanks for confirming this.
The biggest reason Madrugars are considered overpowered (by those that do feel that way) is now they are able to remain highly resistant for long periods of time without needing to retreat for longer periods.
Simply put, they repair too quickly. I, personally, feel that they both move too quickly (able to retreat out of harm's way) and can take too much punishment without flinching. Basically, one repair under one hardener grants too much effective resilience. Look at the following example.
A PRO Forge Gun (1400 damage per shot), Prof 5 (1656) and Profile (1822.)
A Madrugar with one PRO Plate, one PRO Rep, two aHardeners: 1200 Shields/4585 Armour
One PRO Rep repairs 137.5/sec with L5 Skill. This is roughly equivalent to 1/13th of each FG shot. Given a charge/fire rate of, let's give a rough time of five seconds per shot (charge time plus lining it up) that means that the FG is 'winning' by 8/13ths per shot. If you understand what I mean? Essentially it's out damaging the repairs by 8/13ths.
Vs one Hardener each FG shot will deal 1822*.6= 1094
Now, each second of repair is equivalent to 1/8th. Now the FG is 'winning' by only 3/8ths per shot.
We also have to consider that the FG only gets four shots before it reloads (6 seconds with Max RR.) ((1094*4)-(137.5*15)= 2314. The Madrugar is roughly at half armour. Now the FG has to reload (6 seconds) which grants another 825 (2314-825= 1489) meaning that the FG damages the Madrugar at only 1489 damage to armour per clip: it will take four clips of that FG to kill this Madrugar. That's roughly 84+ seconds of continuous, accurate fire. Against a single Hardener and a single Rep (Well the Hardener only lasts for 48 seconds: which is where a second one comes in, I guess...)
(*15 is 15 seconds of repair, as the first shot will have done no repairable damage during the charge, unlike the follow up shots)
If a second Hardener is added, that damage is now 1094*.656= 718
The repairs are now equivalent to 1/5th. Now the FG is actually neutral with the repair rate: no damage is actually 'sticking' to the Madrugar.
Factoring reload time, the FG has no possibility of killing the Madrugar, even if it make no attempt to evade.
Essentially, the high resistance granted by the armour hardeners combined with the incredible and unstoppable repair rate of heat armour repairers makes Madrugars essentially unkillable unless attacked by three or more players.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1
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Posted - 2015.07.18 02:08:00 -
[7] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:[Is my proposal on making Armor Repairers active again acceptable?
Sorry got a bit carried away 
Personally, yes. Though I also feel that they would need something a little bit more than 'just' only being active, something like the old system of one pulse every 3 seconds (or 5 seconds, or whatever, with the corresponding buff to HP/cycle it needs) - making it possible to deal spike/alpha/whatever-kind damage between Rep cycles.
Also up/downtimes are important. Too long up and they're basically just as is. Too long down and they're... Well not too bad anyway. If I were to spitball some numbers:
PRO Active Armour Repaired:
One cycle every five seconds; 600 Armour HP every cycle (750 w/ L5 Skill)
Duration: 18 seconds (4500 per module, per recharge)
Cooldown: 60 seconds (45 seconds)
Short duration but with high yield (higher than passive) so it can rep up rapidly; but long cooldown prohibits prolonged exposure to sustained enemy fire uness multiple modified added fitted and managed effectively.
That's hardly a definitive suggestion and just one I dropped off the top of my head. But it would make armour HAVs very tough when used by a good operator, yet fragile when caught off guard and also require a substantial time out of the fight.
General Mosquito wrote:Having to play here is the doctrine, drive it or die in a fire, also, when you see AV run far, run fast is not exactly entertaining gameplay is it?
As an ADS pilot, Madrugars have it so easy! 
Thing is, Madrugars can quite happily stay mobile: dodging one FG round buys them not just 250-300/sec repairs, it also negates the damage, requires a further charge time and then they need to hit. Fuel Injectors are not required to force misses, but they do massively increase the likelihood of one.
PLCs have it similarly: each miss (very likely against an aware HAV operator) requires a 4s reload and 0.6 charge (both reduced by skills, of course, but that's still at least a 2.5s turnaround time, even on a Commando)
Swarms have travel time to consider, and they seem to home in on HAVs far less effectively than any DS.
As for AV grenades, Packed especially, they are very short range. Madrugars can move very rapidly - their acceleration is still barely noticeable and only corners in tight areas present any kind of difficulties.
Essentially, a Maddy in the middle of a city socket has at least even odds of escaping an AVer that ambushed them: when all of the factors are stacked against the Maddy they're still very likely to escape, which seems wrong to me, unless the person is carrying a full compliment of Lai Dai Packed grenades, at which point it's probably a 50/50.
In an open field, the Maddy will escape a 1v1 with soul destroying reliability.
Honestly, I don't see how anyone can defend the current state of Madrugars.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1
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Posted - 2015.07.18 02:19:00 -
[8] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:Devadander wrote:A one hardener limit would doom shield HAV. You assume we can't buss shield gardeners to account for a limit. 60% for instance.
No thanks. I remember 1.7. I am a Python pilot and I am strongly against 60% resistance sHardeners.
Wiyrkomis: 312/missile
312*.8 profile *.4 one sHardener *.465 two sHardeners *1.1 MinCom *1.07*(.07*.86+1)*(.07*.56+1) three damage mods *1.05 Warbarge = 64 damage per missile *4 = 256 per volley.
Kaalakiota FG: 1440 = 285 per shot
Allotek PLC: 1690 = 521 per shot(!)
If anything should be done for shield vehicles it's reducing the efficacy of the Large Blaster vs vehicles. It is simply too effective vs both infantry and vehicles and that unnecessarily hurts Shield HAVs greatly. Vs AV Gunnlogis are quite balanced.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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