Commandos on the gallente side suffer from not being able to get close enough, fast enough to capitalize on their firepower in my experience

Commandos on the gallente side suffer from not being able to get close enough, fast enough to capitalize on their firepower in my experience

Assault bonuses are tied to the primary drawback of weapons, and have both grenades and equipment. You're stuck with the engagement profile of your weapon, but you function better when you're in your element. You can assault any location by getting to your optimal engagement positions, which you just win at. It befits the name.

Commandos get more burst damage and EHP, and can bring a weapon for every occasion. Not as useful in a slugfest, but should be ready to win any 1v1 off to the side, also befitting their name

You're proposing to just switch the two roles. I don't see why you need to bother.

Right right. Dunno what we could give them that would contribute to that a bit more.

The root question: What do we give a CQC suppression unit to make it unique and viable?

Right right. Dunno what we could give them that would contribute to that a bit more.

The root question: What do we give a CQC suppression unit to make it unique and viable?

Stuff and things

OP is OP is OP

you cant justify it by skill levels or perceived "difficulty" of use. a gal with 2 shots in the PLC is OP. what about the officer variant?

shotguns with double clip sizes?

the 140 round AR? the 200 round krin sin 11? lol how can you sit there and propose this with a straight face?

youre trolling hard man. hardest ive seen in awhile.

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two bonuses is too limiting. we need 4 bonuses on every role including commandos. 2 offensive and two defensive bonuses.

if you really want a clip size bonus, then go with 40%. it wont break weapon like the PLC.

Commandos get more burst damage and EHP, and can bring a weapon for every occasion. Not as useful in a slugfest, but should be ready to win any 1v1 off to the side, also befitting their name

Did you read the entire thread or did you just stop where it said that Assaults would get a damage bonus?

Commandos generally have crap EHP which is comparable or worse than what assaults can achieve, since assaults have more modules, and the assaults end up with more fitting variation

The amarr assault gets a huge bonus to burst damage since they can avoid overheat much better

OP is OP is OP

you cant justify it by skill levels or perceived "difficulty" of use. a gal with 2 shots in the PLC is OP. what about the officer variant?

shotguns with double clip sizes?

the 140 round AR? the 200 round krin sin 11? lol how can you sit there and propose this with a straight face?

youre trolling hard man. hardest ive seen in awhile.

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two bonuses is too limiting. we need 4 bonuses on every role including commandos. 2 offensive and two defensive bonuses.

if you really want a clip size bonus, then go with 40%. it wont break weapon like the PLC.

Yeah, lemme tell you, a 140 round AR is game-breaking but the 1.9 second reload time in between two 70 round magazines isn't.

Why? Because he can hold down the trigger? You ever held down the trigger for the entire magazine? You know how much recoil and dispersion that thing gets? Dude would have to take 1.9 seconds to wait for his gun to settle in the first place. The key difference here is that he isn't -forced- into a reload and can keep firing whereas the other guy has to reload the weapon, which is the very definition of suppression.

You're going to have to think about ammo disparity when engaging a Commando. Do I have enough ammo? Can I kill him before he kills me? Can I break away from combat long enough that I can reload my weapon while he's still shooting? These are the questions players -need- to ask before engaging a Commando, not: "Is it a Minmatar Commando with a Swarm Launcher / Caldari Commando with a Sniper Rifle? No? Then there is no threat."

Commandos on the gallente side suffer from not being able to get close enough, fast enough to capitalize on their firepower in my experience

You've got it backwards
Burst: Damage in a very short amount of time. Winner: Commandos (Flat damage bonus)
Sustained: Damage over a longer period of time Winner: Assaults (heat, clip size etc)

You've got it backwards
Burst: Damage in a very short amount of time. Winner: Commandos (Flat damage bonus)
Sustained: Damage over a longer period of time Winner: Assaults (heat, clip size etc)
.

yes, there's utility in shooting your gun forever without needing to reload, but youre creating major problems that we dont know if they can be solved.

you cant simply give a blanket plasma weapon clips size increase because it affects alot of other weapons that were balanced on small clips sizes. breach shotgun, plasma cannons, tactical ARs all wre balanced to have small clip sizes and a bonus that applies to plasma weapons affects the whole category.

the other issue is that because of how severe recoil gets with weapons, no one would be able to make any use of a increased clip size unless theyre at in cqc range. RRs with double clip size are useless. a 1.9 sec reload time is fine. its more than TTK for some suits, so reloading would get you killed. 700+ dps ScR? he gets 1.9 seconds of free DPS to apply to you while youre reloading. so youre forced to seek cover.

speaking of ScR, what good is double the clip size there? youll overheat before its of any real use.

suppression isnt about spamming bullets. spamming bbs isnt suppression is it? no its not. suppression is when there is an overwhelming threat of getting instantly killed the second you leave cover, like when a laser rifle has been heated up and directed at you. Its raw damage and stopping power, not quantity. people dont run for cover when there's a sniper shooting at them because they he has a 12 round clip lol... they run because he'll kill them in one or two shots. tanks dont run for cover because... "omg the forge has such a big clip i cant believe he's still shooting!" they run because he'll kill them in a couple shot if their hardener runs out. I run from ScR because im caldari and itll **** me if im not in cover. those are all instances of being suppressed.

EDIT: Also, you're flipping back and forth on your argument here. Your first post, I'm trolling for proposing a 100% increase in magazine capacity because it is OP. In this post, somehow that isn't viable suppression? Which is it?

Part 2



By now a lot of Commandos are freaking out over the damage bonus being given toward Assaults. Commandos were originally designed, and to a degree still are, as Suppression units. They're sluggish, high EHP nature makes them more resilient to incoming fire and their universal reload speed makes them excellent at putting the hurt on the enemy faster, but I think we can do better at making them suppressive units in a more unique way while reducing the homogenization with Assaults.

A reload speed bonus accomplishes one goal: Putting more rounds down-range, faster. There is literally no other purpose to reload speed besides this. The same goal can be accomplished by a Magazine Increase bonus. A substantial one. We're talking 20% increased magazine capacity per level.

"Whoooa, Aeon, 100% increased magazine capacity is insane! That is entirely OP!"

Not really, you see, all it is doing is taking the occasional two seconds of reload speed out of the equation. More rounds in the magazine doesn't constitute more ammunition, either, it just means that more of the maximum ammo is in the magazine and the weapon can be fired for longer. A Gallente Commando with an Assault Rifle would have the same amount of rounds as a Gallente Assault with an Assault Rifle. It also balances itself in a rudimentary way because the longer you hold the trigger the higher the recoil is. Eventually, unless you want to try your hand at duck hunt, you'll have to lay off the trigger and let the weapon settle.

There is some consideration toward specific weapons that become broken with this, however. Swarm Launchers and Mass Drivers, in particular. The Minmatar Commando's weaponry bonus would have to shift to Projectile Weaponry instead of Explosive Weaponry. But, considering how many complaints there are about Swarm Launchers from vehicle users, I can only imagine they'd unanimously support this change

The only remaining weapon that becomes broken, IMO, is the Plasma Cannon - but considering that Gallente Commando would -have- to be at least level three to get the second round in the 'magazine', assuming rounding, and would not obtain any benefit from it therein afterward, I don't see this as a particularly game breaking thing. The Plasma Cannon by itself is difficult to use and opportunistic as is and there aren't many Myro Commandos running around with which to make it a problem for infantry.

To put it simply, the Commando's bonuses under this proposal would be as such:

-Gallente Commando: 20% bonus to Hybrid - Blaster weapon magazine capacity per level.
-Caldari Commando: 20% bonus to Hybrid - Rail weapon magazine capacity per level.
-Amarr Commando: 20% bonus to Laser weapon magazine capacity per level.
-Minmatar Commando: 20% bonus to Projectile weapon magazine capacity per level.

So that is one bonus down. What about the other? If reload speed is being replaced by magazine capacity and the damage bonus is going to assaults, what unique benefits could we give to Commandos that separates them from Assaults while also hallmarking on their role as suppression?

A good bonus toward the Amarr, I feel, that compliments their suppression is either a cool-down bonus or a heat build reduction. With more rounds in the magazine and the constant threat of heat build, either of these benefits would compliment the playstyle well. A Laser Rifle with reduced heat build and a larger magazine capacity would -ABSOLUTELY- be a force to be reckoned with and I think it would define the meaning of suppression. As soon as you see that laser beam, you'd be diving for cover.

Minmatar Commandos would be a little less about suppression a bit more about cover busting, but this isn't a justification to break them. As such, a good way to go about this, I feel, is to give them an increase in Splash Radius rather than outright explosive damage. This would mean they could force players out of cover more reliably, with better ease of use, and they would genuinely be a threat that needed to be dealt with. (The Assault Mass Driver might need to be balanced in accordance with this, but the Breach Mass Driver might actually get some use as a result)

Caldari commandos are pretty easy. With an increase in magazine capacity and a focus on ranged combat, the best bet for them would be a recoil reduction in ADS, specifically. Hipfire would be, without a doubt, broken.

Finally there is the Gallente Commando, which I genuinely don't have a clue as to what sort of unique bonus they could receive that would compliment the playstyle. Given that Gallente are geared for CQC and a magazine increase would be a big benefit toward that, I have no idea what could be offered in place to make them unique.

-Gallente Commando: ?????
-Caldari Commando: 5% reduction to Hybrid - Rail weapon ADS recoil per level.
-Amarr Commando: 5% reduction to Laser heat-build per level /OR/ 5% bonus to Laser cool-down per level.
-Minmatar Commando: 5% bonus to Explosive weapon splash damage per level.

Finally there is the Gallente Commando, which I genuinely don't have a clue as to what sort of unique bonus they could receive that would compliment the playstyle. Given that Gallente are geared for CQC and a magazine increase would be a big benefit toward that, I have no idea what could be offered in place to make them unique.

Give Gallente commandos 3% sprint speed per level. A free kincats at 5. Let's them get their plasma rifles into range quicker, which is in line with Gallente combat philosophy.

The bonus has diminishing returns toward small clip size weaponry. A Breach goes from 2 rounds to 4 rounds... Okay, that is fine and dandy but on a Galmando you're probably going to have to fit biotics - sacrificing EHP - to make it viable at all. Plasma Cannon is a different story but I don't see a two shot plasma cannon as that big of a deal, honestly, because it isn't -that- big of a threat to infantry unless you're using myros and any vehicle user will tell you that the most problematic weapon is the Swarm Launcher. If anything, the Galmando with these changes would probably be a good justification for boosting Vehicles' viability in the eventuality that it -did- become a problem, because we're still trying to nerf swarm launchers as it is due to that.

Suppression is subjective to different contexts. You say "Spamming BBS isn't suppression is it?" but which would you say is more suppressive: An M16A4 Assault Rifle or an M249 SAW?

EDIT: Also, you're flipping back and forth on your argument here. Your first post, I'm trolling for proposing a 100% increase in magazine capacity because it is OP. In this post, somehow that isn't viable suppression? Which is it?

Let me offer you this. There is a reason the Kubo's PLC is so beastly, and it has little to do with the amount of damage it does. It's almost entirely due to the fact that it can drop 2 shots

I have a pretty extensive field record with the PLC and I've also dont quite a bit of numbers work with Breakin' in terms of AV.

Let's take a look at this from a mathmatical perspective We'll go with a Gallente Commando, max skills, no damage mods, and a Standard PLC. (I dont have access to my PS3 atm so fogive me if my values are off)

Direct Damage: 1300
Charge Time: 0.45 Seconds
Reload Time: 2.23 seconds
Effective Fire Rate: 0.45+2.23=2.68 seconds
DPS: 1300/2.68= 485 DPS

Now lets look at it with 2 shots in the magazine

Direct Damage: 1300
Charge Time: 0.45 Seconds
Reload Time 2.23 Seconds
Effective Fire Rate: 0.45+0.45+2.23=3.13 seconds
DPS (1300+1300)/3.13 seconds= 831 DPS

Starting to see my concern here? Mind you that's not taking profinciency into account or the Galmmando damage bonus, yet you're still dropping 2600 damage in 0.9 seconds before reloading, an a massive 70% increase to PLC DPS simply from the magazine bonus alone.

save us pokey! Amadi is a madman!

Don't get me wrong, the idea of increased magazine is an interesting one, and one I'm willing to explore. But there are some fatal flaws in it, the PLC being the biggest ones. Swarm Launchers are also another weapon which could experience problems (though not to the extent that you would see in the Plasma Cannon).

OP is OP is OP

you cant justify it by skill levels or perceived "difficulty" of use. a gal with 2 shots in the PLC is OP. what about the officer variant?

shotguns with double clip sizes?

the 140 round AR? the 200 round krin sin 11? lol how can you sit there and propose this with a straight face?

youre trolling hard man. hardest ive seen in awhile.

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two bonuses is too limiting. we need 4 bonuses on every role including commandos. 2 offensive and two defensive bonuses.

if you really want a clip size bonus, then go with 40%. it wont break weapon like the PLC.

Easily resolved. Increase the reload time by 50-100%. They get two shots with double the downtime. Make it even longer if you want.

I love these suggestions. I think splitting the two off into defined roles is inspired. I think it would need some tweaking as per the quoted comment, even if it was a knee-jerk reaction with no real thought put in beyond "NO! BECAUSE NO".

Errr... making it faster than the galassault seems...

Bad?

The gal need that bonus built into their racial stats. At least for assaults and commandos. A built in dampener would be great as well

The numbers aren't necessarily true though, at least from a DPS stand-point. The GalMando would be losing it's reload speed bonus so the DPS would be more along the lines of 671, but I'll give you that the potential for a 2,700 burst of damage is somewhat powerful.

Ok, lets explore it without the reload bonus then.

Alright, so Non-Mando with PLC
Damage: 1300
Charge Time: .45
Reload Time 2.975
Effective Fire Rate: .45+2.975=3.425
DPS: 1300/3.425 = 379

Galmmando
Damage: 1300 (x2)
Charge Time: .45
Reload Time: 2.975
Effective Fire Rate: .45+.45+2.975=3.875
DPS: (1300+1300)/3.425 = 671

Difference Between Gallmando and Nonmmando: [(671-379)/379*100%=77% Increase

So are you really OK with the Gallente Commando providing a 77% increase to DPS to the PLC? Because I personally feel that any bonus that increases DPS that much essentially impossible to balance. Either the the Galmmando PLC will end up being OP, or the Nonmmando PLC will be UP. In some ways its similar to the old ADS bonus, where Small Turrets on their own were not a problem, but on an ADS they very much were due to the large increase in DPS from the ships bonus.

Rattati has already state he is not interested in increasing the reload speed as it would make it more effective against infantry. Additionally a larger magazine would also have the same effect, and thus I don't see him going for it. As I've said Breakin and I have done a significant amount of work on the numbers behind AV (though I'll admit it was mostly Breakin' with me doing sanity checks) and have talked to some extent with Rattati about it as well.

So unless Rattati has had a change of heart recently, I just don't see it happening.

Rattati has already state he is not interested in increasing the reload speed as it would make it more effective against infantry. Additionally a larger magazine would also have the same effect, and thus I don't see him going for it. As I've said Breakin and I have done a significant amount of work on the numbers behind AV (though I'll admit it was mostly Breakin' with me doing sanity checks) and have talked to some extent with Rattati about it as well.

So unless Rattati has had a change of heart recently, I just don't see it happening.

Oh that's cool. An entire proposal completely destroyed, dismantled, and rendered moot not because of the dropsuits it entailed, but because of one weapon.

Where was this sort of feedback when we were all saying the PLC was underpowered for a year and a half?

Do we have any other comments that could potentially make it work? No?

Than Galmando Bonus: 20% increase to magazine capacity per level of Assault Rifles.

Every time I mention the name Aeon Amadi, someone laughs hysterically... and then we move on to a more serious topic.

so even if we double AR clip size on commandos, and increased reload time to balance them... we still can cheat by carrying 2 ARs and switching to the second instead of reloading.

so instead of one AR with 140 rounds, its 2 for a total 280 rounds without the need to reload. and thats just one guy.

how about 16 of them all taking turns so that there's never any reasonable break in fire?

oh god the krin sin 11 lol. 200 round clips and dual wield them lol. yea.... nobody can abuse that lol

I must admit I haven't timed how long it takes to switch weapons, but I'd be willing to wager it's not all that far off the reload time when the reload skills are maxed. I think you're overestimating the effect this could have.

If you haven't gathered by now, he's just here to troll.

Fair point, I got too engaged in trying to have a reasonable discussion that I failed to notice.

The gal need that bonus built into their racial stats. At least for assaults and commandos. A built in dampener would be great as well

Kind of like this if it wouldnt infringe too much on scouts, minmatar might need this as well, it is very difficult to perform CQC or flanking/skirmish style play when permascanned

Every time I mention the name Aeon Amadi, someone laughs hysterically... and then we move on to a more serious topic.

so even if we double AR clip size on commandos, and increased reload time to balance them... we still can cheat by carrying 2 ARs and switching to the second instead of reloading.

so instead of one AR with 140 rounds, its 2 for a total 280 rounds without the need to reload. and thats just one guy.

how about 16 of them all taking turns so that there's never any reasonable break in fire?

oh god the krin sin 11 lol. 200 round clips and dual wield them lol. yea.... nobody can abuse that lol

...and everybody's favorite dream smasher make his triumphant return thankyou for reason here.

Perhaps, and tweaking would certainly be on the cards, but on the whole, I think the OP really had something, haggling over that specific bonus aside, that would actually differentiate the two types of suits. I think it's worth exploring the concepts anyway.

Oh that's cool. An entire proposal completely destroyed, dismantled, and rendered moot not because of the dropsuits it entailed, but because of one weapon.

Not sure if compliment or criticism....



Oh don't get me wrong, as I said earlier I think the idea is worth entertaining. But there would need to be some neccessary tweaks before it would work properly because as is, it would make the PLC horrifically overpowered. That weapon in particular reacts to bonuses significantly differently due to its very extreme magazine/reload/damage ratio so you have to tread carefully when tweaking those values.



Not really, see above. All I'm saying is that it's irresponsible to push a change through if its going to cause a glaring issue with a particular fascet. So as was stated before, the PLC would need a rather significant change as not to make this bonus work. I will say I am reluctant to mess with the PLC currently, as it actually performs pretty damn well as is, so I'm a little worried about fixing something isn't broken, just to add a bonus to the suit.

On another note, something that may be worth discussing...would Laser weapons gain much advantage to a increased magazine since their primary limitation on sustained damage is more so tied to heat buildup and not so much magazine capacity?

To refresh you, the Amarr Commando proposal is to take the Amarr Assault's heat build reduction, which would work wonders on a weapon with a larger mag count.

I agree with you mostly, but if commandos are supposed to be suppression, shouldn't they also get more max ammo too? Remember, suppression fire isn't trying to kill someone, it's trying to keep them pinned for other suits (the assault suits) to flank them. So what's the point of a larger magazine if you're going to run dry in the same amount of time as an assault would?

20% bonus to racial light weapon magazine size and max ammo.

In addition, I would think about giving the defense bonus to the commandos, since they have to be exposed in order to deliver that suppression fire. Can't suppress from behind a wall. In exchange, give assaults bonuses to movement, in order to make them better flankers since they can get into position quicker. Just some things to consider.

You also have to consider though....does a larger magazine really make a weapon a suppression weapon? I mean if I have an AR and the enemy has a Rail Rifle....even if I have double the magazine size, how effective am I going to be at suppressing someone who has more range than me? I just dont feel like an increased magazine will make an assault weapon into a suppression weapon, at least in all cases.

I mean just personally, if I really wanted a suppression role, I'd want something like increase splash radius to Mass Drivers since the Mass Driver is by its nature, more focused on suppression.

As well thought out as it is. I'm not really going to back anything that takes me built in Heatsinks away. I like em too much.

I kind of like the idea that the Amarr are a DoT race when it comes to damage dealing.

A suppressive weapon is by definition "A weapon with more than sufficient firepower to turn your ass to chutney if you stick your neck out into the open for any extended period of time."

Having more bullets than the competition is strictly optional.

Grenade launchers (mass drivers) are pretty much the definition of suppressive weapons. Laser Rifles are suppression from hell itself and fits the role perfectly.

the assault HMG is STARTING to push that direction.

there's a few others, but those are the stand-outs.

But for a weapon to be suppressive it needs to have the right combo of range and firepower. Mass drivers do it by alpha and AoE, laser rifles do it by range and scaling DPS.

It'd just be moving to the Amarr Commando where it'd be better off anyway due to the mag increase.

.......You still haven't quite hooked me. In theory it sounds great..... but would I really want to play an Amarr Commando like that> Arguably one of the cooler things about the Amarr Commando is that it AScR functions kind of like an LMG.

O.o; well I mean you'd have an ASCR with +100% mag capacity and a 25% reduction to heat build. That would kinda make it a Light... Scrambler... Machine Gun?