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DeathwindRising
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Posted - 2015.07.03 23:42:00 -
[1] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Commandos on the gallente side suffer from not being able to get close enough, fast enough to capitalize on their firepower in my experience
Right right. Dunno what we could give them that would contribute to that a bit more. The root question: What do we give a CQC suppression unit to make it unique and viable?
more sprint speed |
DeathwindRising
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Posted - 2015.07.04 00:05:00 -
[2] - Quote
OP is OP is OP
you cant justify it by skill levels or perceived "difficulty" of use. a gal with 2 shots in the PLC is OP. what about the officer variant?
shotguns with double clip sizes?
the 140 round AR? the 200 round krin sin 11? lol how can you sit there and propose this with a straight face?
youre trolling hard man. hardest ive seen in awhile.
two bonuses is too limiting. we need 4 bonuses on every role including commandos. 2 offensive and two defensive bonuses.
if you really want a clip size bonus, then go with 40%. it wont break weapon like the PLC. |
DeathwindRising
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Posted - 2015.07.04 07:33:00 -
[3] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:OP is OP is OP
you cant justify it by skill levels or perceived "difficulty" of use. a gal with 2 shots in the PLC is OP. what about the officer variant?
shotguns with double clip sizes?
the 140 round AR? the 200 round krin sin 11? lol how can you sit there and propose this with a straight face?
youre trolling hard man. hardest ive seen in awhile.
two bonuses is too limiting. we need 4 bonuses on every role including commandos. 2 offensive and two defensive bonuses.
if you really want a clip size bonus, then go with 40%. it wont break weapon like the PLC. Yeah, lemme tell you, a 140 round AR is game-breaking but the 1.9 second reload time in between two 70 round magazines isn't. Why? Because he can hold down the trigger? You ever held down the trigger for the entire magazine? You know how much recoil and dispersion that thing gets? Dude would have to take 1.9 seconds to wait for his gun to settle in the first place. The key difference here is that he isn't -forced- into a reload and can keep firing whereas the other guy has to reload the weapon, which is the very definition of suppression. You're going to have to think about ammo disparity when engaging a Commando. Do I have enough ammo? Can I kill him before he kills me? Can I break away from combat long enough that I can reload my weapon while he's still shooting? These are the questions players -need- to ask before engaging a Commando, not: "Is it a Minmatar Commando with a Swarm Launcher / Caldari Commando with a Sniper Rifle? No? Then there is no threat."
yes, there's utility in shooting your gun forever without needing to reload, but youre creating major problems that we dont know if they can be solved.
you cant simply give a blanket plasma weapon clips size increase because it affects alot of other weapons that were balanced on small clips sizes. breach shotgun, plasma cannons, tactical ARs all wre balanced to have small clip sizes and a bonus that applies to plasma weapons affects the whole category.
the other issue is that because of how severe recoil gets with weapons, no one would be able to make any use of a increased clip size unless theyre at in cqc range. RRs with double clip size are useless. a 1.9 sec reload time is fine. its more than TTK for some suits, so reloading would get you killed. 700+ dps ScR? he gets 1.9 seconds of free DPS to apply to you while youre reloading. so youre forced to seek cover.
speaking of ScR, what good is double the clip size there? youll overheat before its of any real use.
suppression isnt about spamming bullets. spamming bbs isnt suppression is it? no its not. suppression is when there is an overwhelming threat of getting instantly killed the second you leave cover, like when a laser rifle has been heated up and directed at you. Its raw damage and stopping power, not quantity. people dont run for cover when there's a sniper shooting at them because they he has a 12 round clip lol... they run because he'll kill them in one or two shots. tanks dont run for cover because... "omg the forge has such a big clip i cant believe he's still shooting!" they run because he'll kill them in a couple shot if their hardener runs out. I run from ScR because im caldari and itll **** me if im not in cover. those are all instances of being suppressed.
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
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Posted - 2015.07.04 07:55:00 -
[4] - Quote
the biggest problem with suppression is that it requires you to shoot at NOTHING most of the time.
youre simply shooting at rocks or corners for the majority of your time. theres no reward in not killing anyone. no one wants to shoot their gun so other people can get kills lol.
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DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
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Posted - 2015.07.04 17:49:00 -
[5] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:DeathwindRising wrote:OP is OP is OP
you cant justify it by skill levels or perceived "difficulty" of use. a gal with 2 shots in the PLC is OP. what about the officer variant?
shotguns with double clip sizes?
the 140 round AR? the 200 round krin sin 11? lol how can you sit there and propose this with a straight face?
youre trolling hard man. hardest ive seen in awhile.
two bonuses is too limiting. we need 4 bonuses on every role including commandos. 2 offensive and two defensive bonuses.
if you really want a clip size bonus, then go with 40%. it wont break weapon like the PLC. Yeah, lemme tell you, a 140 round AR is game-breaking but the 1.9 second reload time in between two 70 round magazines isn't. Why? Because he can hold down the trigger? You ever held down the trigger for the entire magazine? You know how much recoil and dispersion that thing gets? Dude would have to take 1.9 seconds to wait for his gun to settle in the first place. The key difference here is that he isn't -forced- into a reload and can keep firing whereas the other guy has to reload the weapon, which is the very definition of suppression. You're going to have to think about ammo disparity when engaging a Commando. Do I have enough ammo? Can I kill him before he kills me? Can I break away from combat long enough that I can reload my weapon while he's still shooting? These are the questions players -need- to ask before engaging a Commando, not: "Is it a Minmatar Commando with a Swarm Launcher / Caldari Commando with a Sniper Rifle? No? Then there is no threat." yes, there's utility in shooting your gun forever without needing to reload, but youre creating major problems that we dont know if they can be solved. you cant simply give a blanket plasma weapon clips size increase because it affects alot of other weapons that were balanced on small clips sizes. breach shotgun, plasma cannons, tactical ARs all wre balanced to have small clip sizes and a bonus that applies to plasma weapons affects the whole category. the other issue is that because of how severe recoil gets with weapons, no one would be able to make any use of a increased clip size unless theyre at in cqc range. RRs with double clip size are useless. a 1.9 sec reload time is fine. its more than TTK for some suits, so reloading would get you killed. 700+ dps ScR? he gets 1.9 seconds of free DPS to apply to you while youre reloading. so youre forced to seek cover. speaking of ScR, what good is double the clip size there? youll overheat before its of any real use. suppression isnt about spamming bullets. spamming bbs isnt suppression is it? no its not. suppression is when there is an overwhelming threat of getting instantly killed the second you leave cover, like when a laser rifle has been heated up and directed at you. Its raw damage and stopping power, not quantity. people dont run for cover when there's a sniper shooting at them because they he has a 12 round clip lol... they run because he'll kill them in one or two shots. tanks dont run for cover because... "omg the forge has such a big clip i cant believe he's still shooting!" they run because he'll kill them in a couple shot if their hardener runs out. I run from ScR because im caldari and itll **** me if im not in cover. those are all instances of being suppressed. The bonus has diminishing returns toward small clip size weaponry. A Breach goes from 2 rounds to 4 rounds... Okay, that is fine and dandy but on a Galmando you're probably going to have to fit biotics - sacrificing EHP - to make it viable at all. Plasma Cannon is a different story but I don't see a two shot plasma cannon as that big of a deal, honestly, because it isn't -that- big of a threat to infantry unless you're using myros and any vehicle user will tell you that the most problematic weapon is the Swarm Launcher. If anything, the Galmando with these changes would probably be a good justification for boosting Vehicles' viability in the eventuality that it -did- become a problem, because we're still trying to nerf swarm launchers as it is due to that. Suppression is subjective to different contexts. You say "Spamming BBS isn't suppression is it?" but which would you say is more suppressive: An M16A4 Assault Rifle or an M249 SAW? EDIT: Also, you're flipping back and forth on your argument here. Your first post, I'm trolling for proposing a 100% increase in magazine capacity because it is OP. In this post, somehow that isn't viable suppression? Which is it?
one shot from a plasma cannon on a gal commando at level 5 skills and a damage mod is 2516. youre saying that he wont run two of these, with two shots each? which gunnlogi is capable of surviving 10k in burst damage?
Suppression is effectively controlling enemy actions. you can do it with a rifle or a squad support weapon. the difference is the amount of wasted ammo used to do it. im not excited about wasting ammo to do a job.
double PLC ammo is OP. and 140 round ARs is viable, but RR and ScR arent really. AScR sure, but that thing is weird anyways right now. its an ARR with higher rof and none of the recoil issues and with better range than AR.
here's another thing, this idea doesnt fit with the game's current design. if we can effectively control areas of the map for extended periods of time, where do we go? the maps arent big enough to allow proper movement to counter suppression tactics. how mant exits are there from a redline? how many entry points are there to gain access to an objective.
we have suppression weapons already. we have the mass driver for use indoors, and the laser rifle for outdoor use. why do we need to urn every other weapon into something it was not designed for? how do you balance the odd variants? |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
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Posted - 2015.07.05 07:57:00 -
[6] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Let me offer you this. There is a reason the Kubo's PLC is so beastly, and it has little to do with the amount of damage it does. It's almost entirely due to the fact that it can drop 2 shots
I have a pretty extensive field record with the PLC and I've also dont quite a bit of numbers work with Breakin' in terms of AV.
Let's take a look at this from a mathmatical perspective We'll go with a Gallente Commando, max skills, no damage mods, and a Standard PLC. (I dont have access to my PS3 atm so fogive me if my values are off)
Direct Damage: 1300
Charge Time: 0.45 Seconds
Reload Time: 2.23 seconds
Effective Fire Rate: 0.45+2.23=2.68 seconds
DPS: 1300/2.68= 485 DPS
Now lets look at it with 2 shots in the magazine
Direct Damage: 1300
Charge Time: 0.45 Seconds
Reload Time 2.23 Seconds
Effective Fire Rate: 0.45+0.45+2.23=3.13 seconds
DPS (1300+1300)/3.13 seconds= 831 DPS
Starting to see my concern here? Mind you that's not taking profinciency into account or the Galmmando damage bonus, yet you're still dropping 2600 damage in 0.9 seconds before reloading, an a massive 70% increase to PLC DPS simply from the magazine bonus alone.
save us pokey! Amadi is a madman! |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
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Posted - 2015.07.05 16:04:00 -
[7] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:Give Gallente commandos 3% sprint speed per level. A free kincats at 5. Let's them get their plasma rifles into range quicker, which is in line with Gallente combat philosophy. Errr... making it faster than the galassault seems... Bad?
The gal need that bonus built into their racial stats. At least for assaults and commandos. A built in dampener would be great as well |
DeathwindRising
ROGUE RELICS
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Posted - 2015.07.05 19:43:00 -
[8] - Quote
Every time I mention the name Aeon Amadi, someone laughs hysterically... and then we move on to a more serious topic.
so even if we double AR clip size on commandos, and increased reload time to balance them... we still can cheat by carrying 2 ARs and switching to the second instead of reloading.
so instead of one AR with 140 rounds, its 2 for a total 280 rounds without the need to reload. and thats just one guy.
how about 16 of them all taking turns so that there's never any reasonable break in fire?
oh god the krin sin 11 lol. 200 round clips and dual wield them lol. yea.... nobody can abuse that lol |
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